Within the Church of Lathander, we've been having a lot of OOC discussion about whether or not a cleric or a paladin can simply give up his position. It was an interesting subject, and there were educated points on both sides. I'm not trying to publicize an argument so much as ask for others' input, discuss it in a mature manner. I don't think this was ever an argument to begin with. Both sides gave excellent points, and I thought it was enough of an interesting subject to see Amia's opinions--or if desired, some of Amia's DM responses.

On one hand, a cleric or paladin is a servant given divine blessings for their god. They're driven to do as their god would and to serve their god. And because of this, they wouldn't be able to willingly forsake their gift or their purpose.

And on the other, a cleric or paladin is a vessel for their blessings, but they differ in the sense of drive from a Red Dragon Disciple or a Celestial being in that their physical form and heritage isn't driving them toward certain tendencies. The cleric is blessed by their divine entity, but still a flawed being that can make mistakes, and thus, capable of a fall. That being said, I don't think a cleric or paladin could simply forsake the gift that's been given, Ie: Suddenly remove the blessings of their divine entity.


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What's the rest of the Amian crowd got to say? Keep in mind, this is a topic progressively directed, not a topic made to bash any player decisions in the past.

By analogy with RL, I see no reason why a cleric (or paladin) could not step down from their position, say if they wanted to marry and the faith didn't permit marriage for clerics. Or if the older sibling who was heir to the family business/title/home was dead and they had to take over the responsibility. Or the PC could suffer a crisis of faith (certainly my PC has had them on occasion) and in some cases might decide that they no longer feel the required level of dedication. If the deity was loathe to have them leave then there could be some interesting RP over that, or the deity could leave the person with a small token of power (eg. the ability to bless 1x day). Conversely, an evil deity (or organization, eg. the Sharrans) might very well decide to kill the 'defector'. But special circumstances like those aside, I would have no objection.

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~Sharess on AmiaWiki~
Priestess, politician, prostitute
"[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer Bolt
AmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)

I am not so familiar with the church of lathander. My semi-educated guess would be it depends on the circumstances. Was there a vow given in Lathander's name? Was there a breach on the side of the superior? Is it during dire times?

I doubt a paladin or cleric would be forced to keep his position if he decides to do his lord's work outside of the ecclesiastical community of his faith. If he gave a vow, then he should ask to be released from it, as else he would have broken an oath to his god and church. If he is not released from it, well then he either keeps his word and remains within or breaks it.

If there is however a grave threat that the church has to face and it calls upon the servants of the Morninglord, my guess would be that there is a certain requirement to assist/remain even if you are not a member of the community or do not want to remain one - and failing that, Lathander may be unhappy with his servant for neglecting the plea for aid by his brothers and sisters.

Biggest punishment would be excommunication by the church or a fall by the god in question. Though both I think would be only in severe cases.

Good points. The first condition at least might probably apply more to lawful faiths than chaotic ones, however. The induction ceremony I use for Sharessin doesn't include any specific vows, for example.

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~Sharess on AmiaWiki~
Priestess, politician, prostitute
"[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer Bolt
AmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)

Yea. It depends to a great extend if it is a strict and hierarchical faith and if there are sects of a faith where certain sides do not recognize the authority of the other. Also if the vow is simply to another mortal or the god itself. Church of Bane for me is an example where I think that simply leaving would have an extreme response from both the god and the church, especially as it is a part of his dogma. "Submit to the word of Bane as uttered by his ranking clergy, since true power can only be gained through service to him."

With Sharina in the Eternal Order we had, as far as I remember in my time, one person who betrayed the church, order and faith by turning to bane. Naturally that was handled with a fall from Kelemvor and excommunication from Sharina due to some nasty stuff before she turned to bane. We had one person who asked to be released and was granted this - with an amount of time for him to consider if he truly wishes to do this, as leaving the order would deny a chance to ever return to that branch of the church. He was welcome as a faithful in the church any time he visited. The third case was a member of the order who asked to be released from it - was granted it, and then caused big problems with his opinions - but never went so far as that excommunication would have been considered - though simple banishment from this churches property was invoked. The fourth case was someone who turned his back on the church and order in a crisis (npc) and he was put in a cell for it. He was free ago after sitting for a while, and if he fell or did not was between Kelemvor and him.

But the church of Kelemvor, and especially the amia Eternal Order are very different from Lathander's church.

All interesting points!

The idea of vows and maybe different reactions in different temples is a neat idea. In the RL world, certain priests of certain faiths retire and relinquish their duty as a priest when in others they serve until death. I think that's a very interesting point to be made. Certainly wicked clerics and blackguards would have a rough time leaving the church. And Lawful deities might have faithful that serve under strict vows, when clerics of chaotic faiths might have much more leniency.

Sure they can.

Topic answered.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Mind if I expound on this?

While my topic was indeed answered by Tormak's simple and effective answer, I think this can be still discussed for improved roleplay. So.... Yes, Gyrmia!

It isn't really any more complicated than "yes, they can".

I say this because you use the word position. That means your ranking in the church heirarchy. The Church of Lathander is one of the better FR analogs to the Christian tradition of churches, and it is very reasonable for a church elder or pastor to step down. Sometimes they choose to go to another church, or the family is moving to another community for spousal job reasons, or any number of things. Your character can justifiably tell the specific order of Lathandrans on Amia, "I regret that I can no longer find a home in your church, so I will continue to carry Lathander with me in my heart."

Your "position" in the church of Lathander is a measure of purely temporal power rather than spiritual power, no matter what those in the leadership positions would otherwise want you to believe (they have a vested interest in tying the two together to conserve their own authority).

The question is whether your character is stepping out of his position or stepping out of his faith.

If it is the former, yeah, that's doable.

If the character is stepping out of his faith, and no longer wishes to receive the blessings of his deity, wants to lose all access to divine abilities and spells, well, frankly, most gods don't care and aren't checking on that all the time. You would continue to have access to the clerical powers, but could just choose not to use them. In the moment that you use that gift for the "wrong" purposes, according to the tenets of the faith or any vows or oaths you've taken, bam, Fall.

My reasoning behind this is simple: the gods of the Forgotten Realms have an investment in their clerics. They are the ones who spread the worship with the gifts they give them, and who also, at the times the gods truly need them, serve as the gods' pawns in the world. Your character may say, "I choose not to be Lathandran," but Lathander will probably allow him to access the powers of a cleric until he outright misuses them, at which point it will become abundantly clear that you have moved into the realm of "doing harm with the powers" rather than just not using them.

Why? Because you may change your mind one day. Today you say you want no part of Lathander, but tomorrow you will see people suffering and your heart will tell you you have to help them, and thus Lathander's gift is still there for you, whether you choose to use it or not.

Lathander, specifically, is one of the deities prone to being very forgiving and lenient with you so long as you don't go evil. The Church is big on social structure and policy and community building and such, and if any church aligns itself with the concept of Aquinean virtues, it is the Church of Lathander. Thus, I think your character can leave his position and maintain his faith without a fall. I also believe that your character can leave his position and his faith and actually still have access to the clerical powers, so long as he doesn't misuse them or go evil alignment.

Yossi just said it a lot better and more eloquently then I did, I fear.

Well said Yoss. Though what concerns me with the specific instance is that the cleric in question feels he failed his faith, by encouraging a behavior that went against Lathander's love of the marriage vow, where does this put him then, in that spectrum?

Please keep in mind these are very devoted and not frivolous clerics we're attempting to play so things are not taken lightly, major decisions are contemplated and an weighed, while minor ones are made on the fly, like any Lathanderan. We play them very devoted to their service and god, so mistakes are treated as something grievous, but also something to learn from, not dwell on. Tomorrow is a new dawn.

...Consider always the consequences of thine actions....

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That's for the PC and Lathander to know. With all due respect, that's none of your business.

One thing I will say is that your view of just how hardcore Lathander might be in regards to the marriage vow is completely constructed by the local Lathandrians and not necessarily a rooted belief throughout his faithful or even Lathander himself.



Yes sir. Totally and fully agree. Lathander is one of the gods that's truly benevolent.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

I would think him asking my PC ICly for advice did make it my business, but her advice.... "take time in solitude and seek Lathander's Will."

I was asking for possible future RP interactions benefit. People with burdened consciences come to her... for advice, and I'd really like to know more.

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That's not something we should be answering anywhere, let alone here. Tend to your own flock to the best of your abilities. Are you that afraid to use your imagination?

Yup, what Yoss said.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Nup, just don't want to step on DM toes, too much, and as the lore provided in the source books is finite, people's thoughts help as well as DM thoughts, but thank you for the answers.

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Hm, hm. Yes, Zephyr, a lot of what's been said here can be related to our own personal situations, but this isn't the idea of the subject. In fact, we've received some stellar answers from the DM team here.



I thought this was a really interesting statement. I'm struggling to ask the right question about this. I'll try to rephrase what's been given, perhaps. If the cleric can remain without position and without faith, yet still be empowered by his/her god, does that mean that a cleric's faith isn't directly related to the amount of blessings they receive? Is the god signaled to give blessings to the cleric by the cleric's initial faith, then the blessings preserved by the God's investment in the cleric, whether or not the cleric remains faithful and within the doctrines of said faith?

This post is specifically a response to Hackums queries in the post immediately previous. I welcome well-reasoned disagreement.




Gods have divine plans. They have portfolios and agendas. They gain power based on how much faith or fear they inspire in the community, not only faith drawn from the clergy. The more power a god has the more tools they have to further their divine plans.

Clerics receive their blessings as a big fat gift. This gift costs the god. Each god has a limited amount of magic they can dispense to their clergy as a whole. That value relates to how much faith or fear exists for that god in the world, the whole world. Usually gods focus their energies where their followers are because thats where they net the best bang for their magical buck, in terms of faith building.

A deity can refuse to give mojo to a cleric who is pious. A deity can give mojo to a cleric who is confused or who has lost the faith in their heart. If Lathander is benevolent enough to put his ideology before his best interests, he is able to do that. He is a god.

So.
Lathander doesnt directly benefit from allowing a wayward cleric a chance to find their path without casting them out. But he may well do it anyway because thats his interpretation of whats right and he is a bloody god so he can do so if he wants to.

And at the cost of inefficiently dispensing some of his divine power to a wayward cleric, lathander can build a public image of himself as ~a supporter of freedom of choice~, or at least reasonable choice in line with his own goals. Which in the end may be quite an acceptable use of that clerical magic in building faith in Lathander in the community at large. It fits his broader game plan.

It is not all about the clerics inner world. There is no one-to-one science of faith given = magic gained.




A gods attention is drawn every time their name is spoken. Its drawn more by well worded prayers. They see a hell of a lot more information than they act upon. So its not a one-to-one response to a signal. The god may perceive faith for a long time before taking action.



The god is a god and does whatever he damn well wants to. The god will do what furthers his or her divine plan.

The correlation with faith comes about because nine times out of ten it is in a gods interests to reward faith and deep understanding.

We've already succinctly covered the issue, Vitross. Your backseat DMing wasn't needed. Much of your post was also wrong and misleading and so should, in general, be disregarded.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Well, as the issue has been dealt with, and numerous responses given, this topic can be done with as pleased.

Though this was placed in general context, it refers to specific instances which intrigue me. Good luck going through them and enjoy it.