AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I understand that wizard's study and study years apon years on magic. How it works and how to properly control in incantation, and there is some who cram there minds with many of varity of random lore, but my question is this.

How far does it go? Like, does the population know of tectonic plates? Do they understand atoms? How far does there knowledge of healing go? Such as, do they understand what a virus is or perhaps how a germ actually works? Do things even work the same way?

I've avoided some conversations because I was not completely sure as to how far Amia's understanding of such things do or do not exist.

And if I posted in the wrong section; I apologize.

Atom Theory and Plate Tectonics are both things that are possible to know. Healing too, of course. Just don't go all crazy modern on us and you'll be fine.

Not all Wizards would know these things though. Academics in general can know these things if they choose to study them.

Druids would probably have a good understanding of Plate Tectonics.

It sometimes strikes me as a little jarring when, in a setting that on its surface seems to resemble the late middle ages, characters know about stuff like plate tectonics or atomic theory or solar mechanics or, to give an example relevant to current plot and RP, germs and viruses. But then, I try to remind myself that actual historical humans didn't have widespread access to magical divination or divinely revealed knowledge. I'd think that given those means of receiving information, it's probably conceivable that characters could know just about anything.

I think what's probably more important from an RP standpoint isn't what your character knows, but whether the way your character learned it is plausible in the setting. Having a certain range of relatively modern knowledge at your disposal isn't inherently problematic, so long as you're mindful that your character just about certainly did not take Physics 101 alongside a university lecture hall full of hundreds of other mostly bored undergrads. Sophisticated education is probably a hard-won, highly individual thing. What I'd find more off-base than a character having advanced knowledge would be a character treating advanced knowledge lightly or cavalierly, as though familiarity with something like germ theory is somehow a cultural norm, when it most certainly wouldn't be.

It's still appropriate to present the knowledge with theoretical models that are believable for the belief system of the setting. Theories are at best representational and often purely pragmatic after all, underdetermined by observation. The way someone on Faerûn will explain and model the atom, plate tectonics or germs will no doubt be different than how we would represent them.

There are several theoretical models compatible with all available and even all possible observations about the constitution of matter, for example. So although Faerûnians may have observed many of the same things we have about atoms and their behaviour, it's highly likely that they've drawn somewhat different conclusions and represented their findings with a slightly different model. Another example is astronomy: although we have now come to believe the Heliocentric model was the obviously correct and better one, at the time it didn't necessarily explain observations any better and nowadays we will agree that you can make perfectly accurate, if cumbersome, representations of the universe by postulating Earth as its center. (And insofar as space and movement is relative - which it might not be - it would even be perfectly true.)

It's a challenge I don't expect many people to overcome convincingly. I don't know enough about science and the history of science to do setting-appropriate scientific RP so I steer clear of it. But for truly great, immersive science RP, you won't just copy modern textbook theories. You think about the observations those theories are inferred from, and see if the Faerûnians would come to a similar conclusion.

One thing to note is that science and academic discipline is probably very elitistic and exclusive in the Realms. There's no widespread popularization of science like today, and the terminology and theories will probably be very complicated and esoteric. Universities, insofar as they exist, will focus on classical disciplines and social needs, not so much empirical science. Literature, history, law, government, economics, grammar, rhetoric, music, medicine, mathematics, things like that. And the majority of wizards are interested in magic, not science. Therefore it's probably not a very clear and unified field of study, but one full of posturing, archaic languages, learned terminology, exclusive reading circles, etc. The socially-accepted archetype of a "learned man" in the Realms is not a scientist but a priest, a bard, a lawyer or something like that.

So although science exists and some very sophisticated observations are possible, by no means does it have the kind of widespread status it has in our society. It's probably more akin to alchemy, with individual scientists holding onto their secrets and coming up with their own theories and terminology to explain something others have also discovered on their own, etc.

The problem that comes with asking how much is known in our setting is that it seems very general, and any answer falsely implies that it is common knowledge.

Think about it this way. "How much is known in our own world?" Depends on when, where, and who. Just because one or two super-geniuses spread over the world know something doesn't qualify that information to be something we can say is known by the world.

This is how I see it apply to FR. Perhaps a good few super-humanoid intellects have been able to deduce, theorize, or even discover atoms, germs, plate tectonics, etc. But just because they know it doesn't mean it is general knowledge. Even then, such a thing as "general knowledge" is impossible to define between places like Halruaa/Thay and some backwater place like Forstakrr.

So in my opinion, the question of "Do people know about germs, atoms, etc" is yes, possibly and probably. But it's not that many and just because it is known by a few doesn't mean it is generally known or even accepted by the majority of the realms. I can't even imagine how science fares on other planes.

Yes, it's definitely not widely known. The ideas of atom-like matter and something like plate tectonics might be in the minds of a few smarty pants, but actual knowledge of how it really works and that it really exists would likely not be known by very many people.

A Druid, for example, would probably have a great idea about plate tectonics, but the information would be in a primitive form, not sophisticated at all. Like someone who "feels" music and can write it, but can't actually tell you how it works for example.

As it's recently come up again, I'd like to expand on this with a question from another perspective.

Yes, it's not impossible for the base concepts of micro-life, atoms and tectonics to be imagined and discussed on a metaphysical level (eg. Aurelius has a philosophical/metaphisical theory that all things are made up of smaller things, which are made up of smaller things yet), but such would not be drawn from "scientific" observation or experimentation but rather a more spiritual or religious approach.

As such, rather than asking "would it be known?" I would like to ask "how would it be known?". Even in a world of magic (or perhaps exactly because of the magic) things like micro-organisms, plate tectonics, solar radiation, atomic theory, etc. require very specialised, advanced and sensitive devices to detect. While you could argue that magic might fill the same role, I would find it somewhat odd that a wizard might devise a spell to examine bacteria when they aren't even aware of their existence. Even for very knowledgeable and dedicated scholars, it would feel unlikely that they have all but a very rudimentary, conceptual theory of these things.

Allow me to go a step further:

Do these things even EXIST in Forgotten Realms? This is a setting where gods literally create storms, raise mountains and create entire races. Sure, it all depends on your interpretation of the nature of the gods and their interaction with the material realms - but in most commonly accepted canon these gods pull some pretty interesting things. And by interesting, I mean conflicting with the laws of physics as we understand them (eg. creating the aforementioned storms out of nowhere without the interplay of high and low pressure you'd expect). So bottom line: would microbiology, quantum physics, etc. even exist in FR?

Elorathall wrote:

...conflicting with the laws of physics as we understand them (eg. creating the aforementioned storms out of nowhere without the interplay of high and low pressure you'd expect). So bottom line: would microbiology, quantum physics, etc. even exist in FR?

Throwing in my two cents on this particular line of thought, as it's one that I've spent some time pondering myself. I really don't think that the existence of magic, either arcane or divine, studied or spontaneous, would preclude the inclination or even likelihood that people would look for the physical reason behind the phenomena they observe around them. At the end of the day, science is nothing more than the rigorous study and categorization of naturally-occurring phenomena through rigorous methods of experimentation, observation, and theoretical formulation. It's not some esoteric process beyond the ken of normal folk, it's the sort of thing all of us do every day without even necessarily realizing it. We see something happen, try to make it happen again, and figure out the conditions that cause it to happen, thereby formulating a theory regarding it.

In a world in which the Gods and arcanists are common knowledge, regularly observed to intervene and cause things to happen that wouldn't in the "normal" world, I really think that they would simply be thought of as part of the system, rather than exceptions to the rule. A typical merchant or farmer wouldn't be thinking about these things in-depth most likely, just as they're not wont to do in our own world, but anyone of a sufficiently inquisitive disposition would probably integrate magic into whatever worldview they have. For such a person who's also familiar with the idea of the Weave, they'd probably see the instantaneous raising of mountains or aforementioned storms out of nowhere as a natural consequence of life on Toril, with some people knowing how to use the Weave to generate pressure systems or, say, violently oxidize a generated mass to create a fireball.

Not everyone would think about it in such scientific terms, obviously, and it would hardly be common knowledge, but I don't have much trouble accepting some Toril-shaped form of any modern theories, be it microbiology and atomic theory or astrophysics... Wizards are still an inquisitive lot, after all, and a spell is probably much easier to create and control when you know all of the underlying physical processes that are being manipulated, at least in some form. As long as there's some plausible way they could magically make the same kinds of observations we could, why wouldn't they be able to draw the same conclusions?

What ends up as a sticking point for me is exactly how far one should go in comparing the science of Toril to that of our universe. Do we have the same periodic table of elements as Toril? If so, what exactly are adamantium and mithril? They exist as ores, so that would suggest that they're not simply an unknown alloy. Does the principle of conservation of energy and matter function the same, and if so, how does this interact with magic and the Weave? How about the Elemental Planes or the Outer Planes? Could a sufficiently clever wizard or cleric make a perpetual motion device using elemental energy/divine influence? And that's just the tip of the iceberg...

This is the sort of thing that bothers me more than what our characters can know or the shape it would take... what kind of terrifying, mind-blowing things could our characters actually do?

Natural sciences are certainly an available study. Geology, physics, astronomy and the like. Even in RL earth (which is a totally and starkly different setting and with radically different human evolution) natural sciences were massively developed in ancient times, even if they didn't quite have the technology yet to prove scientifically that their theories were correct. When you get into things like microbiology though keep it IC is my position. Telescopes are very powerful and ancient, but microscopes not so much. Is there a microscope IG in any library or research facility? If there are no IG microscopes then knowledge of that advanced form of natural science would be impossible to know other than theoretically.

More often than not we skip completely past advanced natural science however and replace it with magic. Natural science, in the end, means absolutely nothing when you can completely destroy the laws of physics, time and reality with a mere thought or the drinking of a bottled potion. I imagine many wizards do not even study natural science other than in its most basic theoretical elements. Only enough so that they know how to bend it and shape it to their own imagination instead. Maybe a broader knowledge, but possibly less on specifics than a non-wizard who dedicates their life to a specialized field such as a botanist.

Not much I can really add that hasn't been said. I know this whole topic has been an issue on NWN RP servers as a whole for a loooong time. Biggest thing that just comes to my own mind is that, yes, D&D and the real world are drastically different from each other. Nothing even really works the same way, aside from natural lifespan, I suppose. But when it comes to using modern day science in a /medieval/ setting (magic or not), it breaks a lot of immersion, imo.

As a whole, if you think about things (especially when it comes to something like technology), even with magic, the most advanced technology is gnomish. And even that only really goes so far as /maybe/ renaissance era Steampunk-ish tech. Most of which is also rather primitive in comparison to proper renaissance era technology. I don't believe the level of tech is even as advanced as the tech that people might find in Dwemer ruins, in the Elder Scrolls game. On par with that, at most.

Overall, though, the biggest cop out I tend to hear from people in my time on NWN, when it comes to all of this, is simply one word. "Magic". Yes, magic exists, but it's not the give all, take all solution to the universe. Which it really isn't. Magic is capable of a lot and it definitely allows for SOME aspects of this medieval setting to be more advanced than the real world during that time frame. But at the same time, the use of magic, I find, would actually make a lot of things more primitive than the real world due to the lack of proper drive to do it. Magic makes people lazy as a whole. Plain and simple. People can RP otherwise, of course, but that's just how it is as a whole. Not counting peasants and people of similar caste, magic is relied on pretty heavily in all settings in D&D, save for the ones that are specifically considered very low/no magic.

So, tl;dr: Magic ≠ Real world science. Not in the slightest. It's also not the answer to everything.

Terallis wrote:

So, tl;dr: Magic ≠ Real world science. Not in the slightest. It's also not the answer to everything.

This is true, but I would imagine characters who aren't super intelligent to have the reaction of just thinking magic is most often at the root of whatever it is they dealing with when they don't know. This is why I think the default supposition is most often magic.

Well yeah. That IC belief is fine. I was more talking about the OOC side of things. 90% of my own experiences with this topic has been people feeling the same way OOC.

What keeps wizards and sorcerors from not being alchemists or just creating gold and precious stones?

Nothing. Many works of artifice involve using powerful magic to transmute materials into precious metals or gems. Spells capable of creating wealth come with an XP cost however, so it's not just free money. Mystra's way of keeping things fair I suppose.

Or simply the law of equivalent exchange..

It's all blood magic and necromancy in the end. #burnthewitch

Amia vs Science.

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