AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Last edited by Lydyn on Sat, Sep 01 2012, 0:18 AM, edited 2 times in total.

Edit: Sorry folks, I was a bit mistaken. It seems it's Forgotten Realms lore that you need a deity to cast any spells from a divine class. The below is a good read regardless though!

It seems several people that I've talked to are a little misinformed about where divine magic can comes from - namely where the power to cast spells for clerics, paladins, druids, and rangers come from. There's three main sources outlined in the Complete Divine; a deity, nature, or a strong belief in a principle. What this means, simply, is that you don't have to worship a deity to get spells - however devotion to nature or a set of ideals has to be as strong as someone's devotion to a deity to acquire such power. If anyone really wants me to dig up more sources, I can, but I'd rather not. One source book, specifically designed to discuss divine magic and divine classes, should be enough.

(Complete Divine PDF Online Link)

Last edited by LetumLux on Fri, Aug 31 2012, 23:49 PM, edited 2 times in total.

The problem with that, is that it is Core, not Forgotten Realms. Forgotten Realms states information concerning its own campaign setting that contradicts what is cited in Complete Divine, and thus overrules it.

Here we go! :

Druids and Rangers:

Druids and rangers must select one of these deities as a patron

Clerics:

All clerics in Faerûn serve a patron deity

It is impossible for a person to gain divine powers (such as divine spells) without one

Druids:

"Like clerics, the druids of Faerûn receive their spells from a particular deity, always a deity of nature or animals." - Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 23
Paladins:

"All paladins of Faerûn are devoted to a patron deity, chosen at the start of their career as paladins." - Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 25
Rangers:

"Unlike clerics, druids, and paladins, Faerûnian rangers do not have to choose a patron deity unless they reach 4th level and acquire divine spellcasting ability (without a patron deity, a ranger cannot cast spells). Many rangers choose a patron deity before then, but others start by devotion to the ranger's way of life instead of to one of the gods." - Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 26

Last edited by serbiris on Fri, Aug 31 2012, 23:33 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Page 22 of FRCS (err, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting) says specifically that clerics function differently in that particular aspect (ie, they -must- choose a deity, causes/abstracts are not enough). Since it specifically overrules that core rule for the Forgotten Realms setting, it stands unfortunately. DMs seem to support this but y'know, I don't speak for them.

So yes in other settings you'd be right, but in this particular setting, for whatever reason they decided to make clerics pick gods.

Does this apply for rangers and druids as well then? ... kind of restricting, but I can't really argue with the setting, I guess.

It applies to rangers and druids too. If you cast divine magic, then you need to worship a god. A ranger who is not going to cast spells doesn't need to follow a god, naturally, but a deity-less person in this setting is very much against the norm anyway.

According to DM ruling on Amia all Divine classes need a deity to be granted spells. So yes.... druids and rangers. And well clerics anways.

And DM ruling outrules every rulebook. Though as Letum said, Forgotten Realms is having a different opinion about that matter too anyways.

Druids are even more restricted in that they have to pick a nature deity - I can pull up a list of those if you like. Paladins too, though they have a different list (mostly LG, LN and NG deities with some rare notable exceptions).

Rangers aren't as restricted as druids, though naturey rangers tend to pick druid deities. They do still need a deity, all the same. It does seem a little restrictive in comparison to Core, but there are -loads- of deities, you'll almost definitely find what you're looking for and in the end the extra baggage of any given deity might make it more interesting.

Well, in my case ... it's not so much not finding a deity that Teriana cannot follow (I'm sure there's many deities she'd agree with), but rather finding one that she feels wanted with rather than just some number to bolster their power. I don't see her being convinced anytime soon ... so I'll avoid the spells for now I guess. If anyone really wants to discuss it further, point me to another forum or PM me - this isn't the place. =)

As far as this goes - I've been corrected and I edited the first post. Sorry guys.

I edited my post up there to include quotes/sources. Maybe some answers for you, Lydyn. You guys are fast! If you need anything else, I still have the Campaign Setting open in my lap.

FYI - It's not a DM ruling. It's core Forgotten Realms lore, as stated in the thread multiple times. In the Forgotten Realms if you do not have a deity you are not a divine caster.

Except if you are a blackguard <.<

Honeydew Snugglepoof wrote:

Except if you are a blackguard <.<

Not true. Outsiders are a type of deity. Same with spirits and totems. None of them are "gods," but they're deities.

Well I don't know about that. It seems to be a matter of semantics. I'd say a deity is someone with divine rank, portfolio and is subject to Ao's approval to influence Realmspace. Fiends or spirits are independent of that, they don't disappear from lack of worship or conflict with the dominant pantheons. "Divine magic" is ultimately just plain old magic that you get from another creature directly, without doing the work arcane casters do.

IronAngel wrote:

"Divine magic" is ultimately just plain old magic that you get from another creature directly, without doing the work arcane casters do.

I think I'd disagree, based on the shear difference between divine and arcane magics, I'd say there's a little more to them. (Not that I know enough to tell you what it is! But still..)

The differences are fairly cosmetic. Sure, they cast a lot differently and the spell access differs a fair bit, but on a fundamental level it's the same.

Yeah. The spell lists are different for game design reasons primarily, and probably reasons of culture and practice IC. But a Bull's Strength is literally the same spell whether it's cast by a wizard, sorcerer or a cleric. They may perform the required components differently, and even two wizards may cast their spells with unique personal flair or cultural convention, but the spell itself is essentially identical, a representation of the same pattern in the Weave.

IronAngel wrote:

Well I don't know about that. It seems to be a matter of semantics. I'd say a deity is someone with divine rank, portfolio and is subject to Ao's approval to influence Realmspace. Fiends or spirits are independent of that, they don't disappear from lack of worship or conflict with the dominant pantheons. "Divine magic" is ultimately just plain old magic that you get from another creature directly, without doing the work arcane casters do.

I agree. In part! Outsiders actually aren't a type of deity. It was a long three day weekend. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!

Fiends are only deity-like in their ability to grant mortals spells like a deity can. They're not real deities. A few of them have become deities after gaining large cult followings though (Gargauth and Baphomet for example). Other outsiders would have similarly found a loop hole to grant spells.

Spirits on the other hand are often aspects of a God, like Totems. If worship of Uthgar and Rillifane Rallathil ended, you can kiss the Gods goodbye, as well as their aspect Totems and Spirits respectively (unless another God took it over, of course).

Alternative Sources for Divine Magic

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