I'm strongly deny any existence of such levels of knowledge in "medieval" or "post-medieval" word of FR. Even more, IRL those topics were adopted relatively recently by scientific community (1953, rejection of continental drift theory). IMO, divination should be more appropriate for FR described state as magic-bound and gods-driven world.

p.s. AD 132, Zhang Heng seismoscope.

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Evolution by any means!

OOC: replied in Amia->Lore http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=67697

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Evolution by any means!

I am banking more upon the knowledge of deep gnomes, duergar, dwarves, and earth genasi whould would likely have more knowledge of such things than a wizard. Whether or not the term exists isn't really important, I feel.

The post in question is related to a specific event, as well. One whose aftermath is clearly evident and which my character has proof of. Divination wouldn't be appropriate. I apologize if my post breaks your level of immersion. If you have any other suggestions, I'm certainly not opposed to changing my wording. The character is a scholarly sort and it is difficult to distinguish RL knowledge and what she might know in this setting.

When we have Geologist as an IG profession, I personally don't take much issue with this. I'm sure those more in tune with nature (elves, druids, fey, etc.) would have a decent understanding of the way the land masses move and change as well.

*edit* And I moved your OOC post here... no reason to clutter up an IC thread with OOC.

Agricola was renown and skilled geologist of his own time. AFAIU your logic, "he was geologist, hence he know plate tectonics"? Assuming this, we must also accept widespread existence most of scientific and technological achievements around of 1950th.



Too many things depend on average level of scientific knoweledge and understanding. As striking example, phonograph -- thing is simple, as garden rack. Nevertheless, it was developed not in Ancient Greece (or earlier), but only in 1877. Same with other areas of science and knowledge.

Again, I say, in FR not exist stable and reliable base for any present-day achievements, nor scientific, nor "mind-shaping".

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Evolution by any means!

FR != RL

Perhaps "seismologist" was a bit of an "advanced" term to use, but I see no issue with the basic knowledge base that he's after, to exist in some form or another.

The "average level of scientific knowledge and understanding" is also affected in FR by the prevalence of the arcane. Arcane understanding in this setting goes (in many cases) hand-in-hand with scientific understanding. Magic certainly isn't a requirement for scientific advancement, but it certainly can serve to accelerate the process significantly.

Magic is what took the Netherese humans from tribes to flying cities, afterall.

It's not an issue of what fits a RL time line or setting. It's what fits FR and specifically, Amia. That being said, I've only expressed my opinion on the matter and how I would likely handle this specific case, were it in one of my events for example. Other DMs may have other opinions and other ways they'd handle it.

It's a mistake to think of Amia / Forgotten Realms as medieval, or post-medieval, or any analog to any real-world time period. The real world never had to contend with a platoon of gods divinely revealing knowledge to their flock, or with races that are mystically attuned to certain phenomena. It's perfectly plausible that a race that's strongly associated with the workings of mountains and the underground might know about tectonics. Why shouldn't Dumathoin clue in some of his people about how the world really works?

We here on Earth gain our scientific knowledge by experimentation and observation, but in the FR, people aren't necessarily bound to those methods. Some people are literally just born with certain knowledge and instincts. Others have it downloaded into their brain by the gods, like Neo learning Kung Fu.

The real world also doesn't contend with individual beings with incredible intelligence and which live for thousands and thousands of years. The fact that plates only shift around at a few inches per year isn't really an empirical obstacle to a dragon or something who can live long enough to actually witness enough time to see continental changes reshape things.

(Also see a previous discussion here.)

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

I'm afarid, theirs "knowledge" more intuitive and superstitious, then scientific and not appropriate for far-coming conclusions. As IRL analogy, it is (for me!) looks like a some sort of shamanistic world-view. It may be good for predictions like this -- "in 666 moon cycles land will split from within!", but nothing more. And there always are a _lot_ of gods and other supernatural powers.



Can you PM me details? If you are interested, we can cooperate to made things as a whole an authentic-looking.

p.s. On my expirience, (most of) scientific before mid-industrial age books are mind-blowing and ridden with weird assumptions and superstitions. Such as ore-tainting kobolds.

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Evolution by any means!

No one will be arguing with this, IMHO.



Alas, 'basic knowledge in some form or other' is always uncertain and intuitive.



Yes, Magic. Omnipresent (FR) power source. No need for an oil, timber, solar, wind, water, nuclear, or any other power source. No need for mathematics, physics, nor theory of strength of materials -- "just cast the spell and Magic will do rest" -- and bizzare tower never falls.



I undestand this. btw, FR, in my opinion, not at all a scientifically advanced world (illithides excluded). Afterall, why someone should waste time and cash on 'science', when (any) priest will give answer in (comparable) no time?

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Evolution by any means!

and I would to say your wrong, when you have classes like Gnome artificer that even say stuff like

"members are artisans and craftspeople who explore what technologies are available to the people of Faerûn,[1] specifically by creating devices that attempt to reproduce the effects of various arcane spells.[2] While often being competitive with one another, artificers also tend to share information and work with one another on various projects. If not working on their own or in small teams, artificers can often be found as advisors to massive engineering endeavours such as in the construction of bridges and the like."

its one of classes that would invent a flamethrower to cast burning hands, the player then gets to use ingame setting stuff to reproduce that effect and as some people know I do enjoy that kind of RP.
rig up a pressurized container full of Ethanol that you have to use a bellows to pressurize followed by a tube from it to a cross bow based trigger system that would then open the vavle at the end of the tube spraying out the Ethanol, you could have the trigger maybe setup to also strike a flint to light it up.

BOOM you just made a very crude flamethower all based off stuff we have in the setting.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

I was just thinking the same thing.

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I play:

Ginafae Dalael - Dancer, dreamer, and cleric of Eilistraee
Maura Connolly - Nurturing druid
Wilimac Merrymar - Daring (reckless?) hin rogue

Yeah, and just add small nuclear cell for ignition, yes? I don't want be blunt, but youtube and wiki is full of info about "why" and "why not".

btw, forcefull putting Giant Humahoid Mech (aka golem) in FR is not making it 'scientifically advanced'. It is just yet another thing out-of-place-and-time. See example with phonograph.

4 you and Lizzie: if FR is so 'advanced', why they stuck so deep in dark ages (of ignorance)? Recent 'red hoods' is notable demonstration of overhelming superstition, ignorance and backwardness of FR.

p.s. thousands adventurers Lv.80 with Int/Wis of 60+ don't change anything.

p.p.s. 1 mage is long to teach, but easy to kill. Rifles and bullets may be produced much faster. Hence, technic always wins against magic, by sheer numbers at least. How many pyro-gnomes was seen later?

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Evolution by any means!

It is my understanding that certain technological advances are purposefully stunted by the gods, specifically Gond and the like.
At least, that is what I read on the forum here somewhere.

Anyways, trying to apply 'real world' logic as to why certain things are technologically available and certain things are not is silly because FR is not the real world.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

now your just trying to exaggerate to be extra trollish, if you look in the FR books you can look and see stuff they have in the setting....
afew things from ONE book, Stormwrack

"Propellers: A few rare ships are built with mechanical or magical propellers, screws, paddlewheels, or even mechanical oars. Like oared vessels, vessels driven by paddlewheels or propellers ignore wind direction."

"The firebomb is a special type of ammunition suitable for catapult or bombard shot. It is a small cask filled with alchemist’s fire, designed to set the target ship afire"

"The firespout is a device that spews a great gout of alchemist’s fire on a nearby enemy ship. It consists of a long copper tube mounted in the bow, with a large bellows and a reservoir for its highly flammable fuel. When you fire the firespout, you create a 60-foot-long line of alchemist’s fire directly in front of your ship."


that has nothing to do with the topic... so I have no idea why would bring it up,being technologically advanced has nothing to do with development of social policies...ect so that statment is rendered moot

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

It's also comical since Europe regressed socially a lot after the Middle Ages, while progressing technologically. (Though a real historian doesn't use words like "progress" or "regress".) There's an intimate connection between the technological and economic state of an era and its social reality, but it doesn't follow any linear model.

It's up to you to decide how far you go with your explanations. I think you need a good understanding of the history and basics of the discipline you want to incorporate into your RP. Otherwise it's hard to be convincing and stay within good taste. I wouldn't role-play a mathematician or an engineer, because I'm not one. On the other hand, I think I can pull off a pretty convincing expert on history, religion and manuscripts because that's also my education. If you know about geology and seismology, you can probably determine what's reasonable and believable in the context of our setting. It boils down to the question "how was this observed" which ultimately determines the possibility of any belief. You could make the argument divination adds more possibilities, but I think it should be assumed to play a minimal role in academic work. Divinations are vague, private and not verifiable by repeating the experiment, so I don't think they'd be part of the core methodology of any discipline.

People have witnessed earthquakes and other phenomena happen. They can generalize and draw conclusions. Magic even lets them repeat experiments. It would probably be something much more concrete than theories on tectonic plates, though; something that probably wouldn't be possible to get a good idea on because Toril-wide observation and documentation isn't possible.

But in drawing on real world knowledge, we have to be careful not to make unfounded assumptions. It's not obvious that tectonics follow the same principles on Toril as on Earth, or that the observable phenomena is similar enough to warrant the same conclusions. It could be, but just assuming that "of course it's known because magics and gods" is not very fruitful. I'd always go back to very concrete observations, and see if they viably lead to the conclusions you want to present IC. If you don't personally know how a given theory could have been developed, then it's probably best not to wager a guess.

Cory: Stormwrack is a core book and thus not applicable to the Realms. We're not quite as advanced as some other settings, I think, but those things aren't outside the realm of possibility.

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Only when you are talking about sorcerors, who are mostly idiots and don't contribute a whole lot to society.

Intelligence-based casters - such as wizards, witches, magi, artificers, etc. - many of whom are leaders in the setting's intellectual and technological development, do not begin to practice serious magic until they learn high function mathematics, physics, mundane power sources, sociology, astronomy, and so forth. It is the exploitation of that massive glut of knowledge and practiced study that not only goes hand in hand with these casters being Intelligence based (whether you argue that they were prone to it naturally b/c of the attribute or the attribute developed in schooling), but also figures into the fundamental understanding of the universe and therefore how to manipulate it with magic. Spell formulae do not work well for people who don't understand the basic mundane concepts of academia and scholastics, unless they're clever enough to fake it (UMD).

I'm quoting this for emphasis.

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Playing:
Marcus Valis

Thank you Yoss!

I would like to see perhaps if even remotely possible something that a spell formulae would look like arithmetically or chemically with stoichiometry type base. Something like that would be neat to see and imagine really for me.

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

As to the specific matter of plate tectonics, it's perfectly plausible for it to be known, or at least theorized, in the FR. In the real world, the idea of plate tectonics didn't come about due to advances in geology or specialized technology. It came about through advances in cartography. People finally got an accurate map of the Atlantic together, and said to each other, "Hey wow, look how neatly the coastlines of North and South America line up with the coastlines of Africa and Europe. What an amazing coincidence! Or... is it?"

The FR certainly has a level of cartography far superior to anything Earth had in the middle ages. It's entirely conceivable that someone might look at a map and start mentally nudging continents around like puzzle pieces. And behold, the theory of plate tectonics is born.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

I would like to quote the Rules and lore section, specifically about lore of Amia



viewtopic.php?f=111&t=67022

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Earylith Ju'ein- ”Never let your guard down around dhaerow, their natural impulse is to kill you”

L'chuno d'Vilrath- ”Usstan orn xun jal dos quarth ilharess”

Assumption based on nothing.

My own observations lead to conclusion of insignificant technological impact of arcane on society and technology as a whole. Where are those supra-intelligent wizzards, when elves were struck with famine (and plague)? Noble and majestic elves were forced to grub in dirt to gather roots and seeds, like lowly scavengers. For me, the ideas of mushroom farms and synthetic meat was first coming and most simple solutions. (well, Stone to Flesh counts too)

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Evolution by any means!

Thank you for the timely quote.

In my opinion about any game 'universe', if DMs says 'Here are fussion reactors, hyperdriving starships and GHMs' -- and we should accept it as reality of game world. Just beause and without underlying explanations. (i.e., accept full set of rules or go away) Until they told us so, we are free to speculate about it without restrains.

// GHM -- giant humanoid mech

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Evolution by any means!

They have been telling you, you just are refusing to accept it based on your own assumptions, while claiming its their assumptions that are false when they control the board.

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Earylith Ju'ein- ”Never let your guard down around dhaerow, their natural impulse is to kill you”

L'chuno d'Vilrath- ”Usstan orn xun jal dos quarth ilharess”

Three DMs have stated how this lore question is to be resolved and explained their reasoning.

Time to let it go.

Yes, you are completely right, afaiu. But! First, here comes various religulous, who are eagerly burn on stacke such thinker. Second, "gods may object" thing. Third, after assumption must come solid proving. And lastly, A/T was so many times reshaped by gods, so (IMHO) any hopes to unravel natural explanations of those matters may be futile.

As points Naivatkal, gods may forcefully suppress any attempts of scientific advances -- 'kill them all, while they are insignificant' (... and can't undermine my supreme authority). Not mentioning negative role of any religion (because of dogmas) on curiousity and free thinking.

p.s. Glim, ok, I end with it.

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Evolution by any means!

Interesting arguement since there's at least three gods I can name off that'd support innovation and scientific study at some level. (even if in two cases it's Arcane)

Azuth, Mystra, and Gond. Gond especially.

Source? Mostly because I have never heard of this and am curious.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

I take offense to that remark, good sir! Sorcerers contribute to society in the way many artists do: on their own terms, of their own mind. Everyone knows there were certain changes in thought, emotion, and art that shaped and advanced cultures as much as the inception of gun powder!



As far as innovations in relation to technology goes, I've always considered magic as an actual form of technology. All technology really is is using the understanding of how your universe works to your benefit. Magic is indeed an part of the FR universe, so using, manipulating, and designing it is no less technological than developing electronics. Our connotation of Magic in how it relates to technology is tainted by the phrase "it's magic!". It seems to dissolve all notion of work or understanding that goes into it. You snap your fingers, and it gets done, how and why completely unbeknownst. That isn't the magic of FR. There are formulae, measurable means and bounds, and factors that go into not only the creation of new magical effects, but the casting of ones that already exist. A quote from Thor is a good example of this concept:

"Your ancestors called it Magic, but you call it Science. I come from a land where they are one and the same."

It is not a matter of a wizard waving his hands about because he's been taught that this particular pattern creates a wall of iron. He, by definition, has looked into "the Matrix" and has memorized what movements and components are needed to interact with the existing laws of reality to even cast the spell. Essentially MacGyver'ing the switches and levers of existence. For sorcerers, some level of understanding is still there, but perhaps on a more abstract level. They manipulate it just without knowing exactly how it is being done, usually. It's like you sit someone who has never seen a computer before down in front of one and they begin coding in C++. Maybe they can't tell you how the simple circuits carry the information from the keyboard to the modem to the monitor, but they still manipulate the end effect(the coding) in the way any computer wiz(ard) could. If you ask them how they do it, they might say "Oh, I know if I think happy thoughts and press the keys that look like drunken fence posts, I can create a recursive While Loop." For a lot of people, they'd say that's not understanding at all, but I would instead submit that it is simply a different form of understanding.



I'd like to see the source for this too. As far as elves go, they were generally on the forefront of magical technology, until Netheril came around. Even in the Crown Wars, I don't recall any huge outbreaks of famine, and the only plagues I recall were actually engineered weapons of war. In addition, simply because one super-genius wizard understands how to stop plague A and famine B over here, it doesn't mean he has the means and resources to instantly set right an entire nation. You do understand I hope that the "supra-intelligence" you speak of is only common to an exceedingly few epic characters in the FR setting, I hope. It is not as if every nation has 20 epic wizards on a given street corner like we see on Amia. That's the realm of adventurers and they are the ones that are supposed to come in and find the deus-ex-machina serum that saves Da World, not what gov'ment endorsed NPC's we assume are behind the scenes.

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FYI he PMed me about it, referencing the DM Event thread: viewtopic.php?p=1111877#p1111877
Specifically:


I mentioned it was likely because doing things the mundane way is typically preferred rather than using magic as a 'fix-all'.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

I was discussing the social development of the Realms in PMs with Q't'ulu, and I think the most important conclusion of that exchange was that it's a frozen, stagnant world. Granted, I was focused on social organization, law and government, but the same can be said of technology as well. A variety of different forms of government coexist side by side and they have for millenia, so clearly new ideas don't catch on and spread very easily. The architecture, military technology or standard of living in old Cormanthor/Myth Drannor wasn't vastly different from modern Silverymoon. The Realms clearly don't follow the same path of "progress" we like to map in our own world. So I think it's good to remember that just because something seems within reasonable reach doesn't mean the setting is about to embrace it within a generation or two.

You could chalk the stagnation up to magic or the gods, but that would be pointless pseudo-sociology. We know it's really because the designers want to keep publishing a pre-modern campaign setting with sword & sorcery romanticism. That's the tacit assumption we make coming into the world, and we probably should respect it and not push it too far.

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This is a big part of my feelings on the world. It's like reading a book series. Things are pretty much going to be the same, yet slightly different with each book, akin to each time to play the game.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Well then, it's like I stated before: that's where the genius adventurer's step in to solve the problem. Amia presents us with a facade when it comes to general population. Even then, such events are purposefully started by our DM's to involve the PC's. Again, they're the one's that do in fact have the means to cure whatever plague with their abilities. Even if Amia did present us with an average slice of the Faerunian populace, it would be insanely boring to play in because everyone is would be either the Flash, Superman, or Wonder Woman. No problem when everyone is super. In reality, settlements generally don't have teams of epic wizards/sorcers/clerics working round the clock at their behest. Epic NPC's are generally rare, so to ask "where are the supra-intelligent wizards" that are supposed to be fixing the problem is like asking "where are all the water parks" in the middle of the Sahara.





Well, there's always that in a sense, but I am again very cautious when magic is talked about like it doesn't evolve. Just in our world, we're generally not too stingy with our technology so long as we can make money from trading it, while Halruaa and Shou are content to zip around on their magic-automated carriages and chill in their Fahrenheit 451-esque buildings.

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In the FR settings we have people (dwarves) who are capable of creating mines that extend not only a mile deep into the earth, but so many miles that they reach the Underdark. We, as a technological society, can't mine even a fraction of how deep the dwarves mine. Not to mention the capability of the UD races to carve cities out of mile-high caverns without having the whole place collapse on them.

So, to say that there is not seismic understanding in the FR universe is to deny the technology needed for the dwarves to do what they do. They build mines that are capable of withstanding seismic forces miles deep in the earth... something we, with all our technology, still can't do.

Now, I really think this whole thing stems from property of the word "seismic" and all derivatives there of. In the FR settings, they have no clue what the word "seismic" means... but they have the technology to understand how seismic activities work.

Do remember that the Mayans and Aztecs were able to develop advanced mathematics and could track astral events like nobody's business... we still haven't quite figured out how they did some of the things that they did... they didn't even have calculators like we do today... and they didn't live for hundreds of years like many races in FR do.

Regardless, several DM's have now spoken their stance on the issue and as such, arguing is really rather pointless. If there are any more specific questions then we will be more than happy to field them, however, continuation in arguing with an established DM stance will only result in a lock.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III