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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 0:56 AM 

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IronAngel wrote:
It would be nice if the entire DM team could read the topic and come to a consensus on how to amend/clarify the rule. My opinion on the lore of it is clear, but either way it's the kind of character creation/advancement rule that needs to be officially declared and documented in R&L. Because while interpretations differ, this discussion is pretty clear evidence that it does need heavy interpreting and isn't explicit.


There really is zero reason to boil it down to:
Quote:
rituals always performed strictly by one person that 100% knows everything beforehand and excluding the involvement of any other external influence


Because there is so much more you can do with the class that perfectly fits into the lore. Done and done well, to boot. And don't buy that 'looser standards' crap that Nivo tossed out either because I was a DM then, and there sure as hell weren't looser standards when I was playing Korthan.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 1:05 AM 

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Jesus, me and Tormak side by side in agreement. I'll go to bed now and stop spamming, while it lasts.

I'll just add this: the DM lore says the rituals and advancement in the class can be almost anything, and rightly so. It seems strange then that you would argue against one possible path on the basis that it doesn't sit well with some particular concept of that advancement - wasn't it just established that the decision to pursue the class and some action taken to achieve it were the only constants?

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 1:08 AM 

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Am I missing something,Tormak? Where was there a ruling on the number of people who can be involved, or the preclusion of any external influences? The ruling was that a prospective Dragon Disciple knows what breed of dragon she's committing herself to before she commits. And that is a significant piece of information, yes, but it's not 100%. I think you're overstating things a bit.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 1:15 AM 

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Lizzie wrote:
Am I missing something,Tormak? Where was there a ruling on the number of people who can be involved, or the preclusion of any external influences? The ruling was that a prospective Dragon Disciple knows what breed of dragon she's committing herself to before she commits. And that is a significant piece of information, yes, but it's not 100%. I think you're overstating things a bit.


Because the situation I am saying is that of a student/mentor relationship where the student may only have the vaguest idea of what's going on "I am unlocking your potential." while the mentor has a full grasp of everything that is to occur. Dustspray's ruling invalidates this entirely and 'grandfathered' isn't an acceptable answer because in my case the RP wasn't done yet, and secondly, there's zero reason to invalidate this sort of roleplay, as student/mentor is a classic learning archetype.

Why does it have to be a solo process performed only by the individual who always knows exactly everything they're doing ahead of time? Why do you always have to know your exact ancestor ahead of time when many disciples are as fractional as Aasimar and Tiefling? It's silly and overreaching. And to use a mechanical backing like 'just abuse legend lore on items to fulfill the requirement' as an excuse for your poorly thought out, restrictive concept of lore is even worse: you hould be encouraging creativity and roleplay, not "you had access to a Legend Lore item, there's no reason you shouldn't know everything before you take the first level."

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 1:26 AM 

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That's... hm. That's fairly reasonable. Maybe there's an acceptable middle ground in ruling not that the RDD-to-be has to know the breed of dragon, but that the person administering the ritual has to know, and the subject has to be a willing participant. That feels a bit rulesy to me, but I think it would be at least plausible. Not that my opinion counts for anything officially, of course. :)

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 2:06 AM 

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I'm not sure Nivo's initial response was talking about the same thing you were, Tormak. I think I know what he was referring to and Korthan was not involved with that particular...thing.

I was, however, under the impression that when you become a blue dragon disciple, you become a disciple of a -blue- dragon. Not just a disciple of all dragons in general. Dragon breeds are so distinct and different that it's just too much of a stretch to me that a good-aligned man with red dragon blood could think, "I have dragon blood?! Must try to awaken it! I wonder if it's gold or silver?!" and then proceed to successfully awaken his evil blood... It doesn't make any sense. A good-aligned character shouldn't have even a minutely similar mindset as a red dragon and shouldn't be doing anything that would ignite that blood.

That's all my argument about it was. I don't know about the mentor/student thing, but the mentor should at least be aware of the blood type involved, I would hope... Trial and error makes sense, like a good-aligned character trying to do various things that emulate one of the metallic dragon types, one at a time to see if they have any effect, could be a cool bit of RP on the path to discovery. Maybe they try three times and still don't have any luck, start to despair, get greedy, turn to darker thoughts of power, and eventually make it to the red dragon successfully. But that would still suggest that they grow closer to the alignment of choice. Hence one-step...

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Glim
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 2:19 AM 

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No one's saying you have to succeed at every attempt made, or that mistakes can't be made along the way. No one's saying that you have to know everything there is to know about your dragon heritage type either. But you do have to at least have done enough research into your heritage to know what type of blood flows through your veins that you're trying to awaken. You don't have to know the exact anatomical structure of your draconic ancestors, or even their preferred diet, but you do have to know what the "essence" of the type of dragon is, in order to begin devoting yourself to awakening that power and potential within yourself.

To put it into a RL example, if you went into a Trades class blindfolded, without knowing whether you were taking carpentry or plumbing or electronics, you'd have zero success at learning the trade. Go into that same class knowing that you've chosen to take carpentry, and there will still be a learning curve as you learn about the trade, you'll still probably make some mistakes along the way, but you at least know what you're trying to learn about and improve at, rather than fumbling blindly with no idea what you're even attempting to learn about.


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 2:26 AM 

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I'm not saying you go into Trades class blindfolded, I'm saying you go in knowing nothing and there's a teacher. Because you're going to a class. And he teaches you.

Which, really, means that going in blindfolded doesn't make a whit of difference, as long as you're willing to learn. You've accidentally proved my point.

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Glim
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 2:38 AM 

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TormakSaber wrote:
I'm not saying you go into Trades class blindfolded, I'm saying you go in knowing nothing and there's a teacher. Because you're going to a class. And he teaches you.

Which, really, means that going in blindfolded doesn't make a whit of difference, as long as you're willing to learn. You've accidentally proved my point.

Try measuring in a carpentry class blindfolded. Or cutting for that matter.

But diverging from the RL example, I haven't seen anything above that states you can't have a mentor/teacher relationship. Only that the student must be at least somewhat aware of what it is they're "signing up for" so to speak.


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 2:48 AM 

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Why?

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 3:37 AM 

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Because you're not signing up to become a disciple of a player to be named later. You're dedicating yourself to a set of ideals, because those ideals appeal to you. It's not possible to become sufficiently passionately committed to a path you know nothing about. It would be like taking a level of cleric and only then finding out which god you're going to be worshipping.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 3:46 AM 

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No, it's not like that at all, because you haven't taken the level yet. Why is a teacher awakening potential in his student a poor avenue for this roleplay?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=50441

Was this the wrong way to become an RDD?

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 4:03 AM 

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And beyond that, why CAN'T you be raised in a religious institution that instills ideals into you, possibly shadowed and half-truths of ideals and only when it's too late do you realize who you've been exonerating?

Why is that such a bad thing?

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Mr. Hackums
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 4:44 AM 

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I'm not sure I'm following the argument that:

You do not have any clear, distinct physical features of a dragon type until after you take rituals (Levels). And the dragon blood can be a couple thousand years ago.

YET, you're expected to know exactly what kind of blood you have? Without any determining physical evidence on your own body. And from family history that could stretch back ages Just.. Just how? You're restricting a character and a class to the lorekeeping skills of a character's family thousands of years ago. So if that character's family just so happened to be bad at taking notes a -thousand- plus years ago, you're not gonna let a person take a class?

And the argument was made, in response to this, that that's why you have to have a lore requirement. You're asked to have 8 lore. I'd have a very difficult time recalling a sexual act a thousand years ago with 8 lore. Rather than say, a broad, general understanding and half-way dedicated research to Dragons in general. Something beyond the myth.

And if dragons are so vastly different that you can't simply become a Dragon disciple in your first step (Must become a specific dragon disciple), because "The dragons are too different," how can we lump them together in the very word "Dragon"? Clearly, there are similarities. And I see no reason why those similarities couldn't be fueled by taking that initial first step, THEN learning the specifics from the results.


 
      
Liz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 4:52 AM 

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TormakSaber wrote:
No, it's not like that at all, because you haven't taken the level yet.

If you haven't taken the level yet, then where's the dispute? Nobody (so far as I can tell) is saying that knowledge of your bloodline is required for RP with a teacher, or even for beginning the 1st level ritual. What's being stated is that that knowledge is required for advancing the level. At some point, before the player clicks that last button in the level advancement windows, the character faces an IC choice of whether or not to proceed. It might not even be until just as the ritual culminates, but the choice is there to either say, "yes, I'm committed to what this ritual is doing to me," or "whoa, hang on a minute, this isn't what I thought it was."

And, Hackums: there are all sorts of ways to find out what blood you carry beyond just geneological record. Visit a sage who can evaluate you, an oracle who can divine the info, an alchemist who can test your blood directly, etc.

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Mr. Hackums
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 5:04 AM 

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That's fair. I'm just jumping at the current examples being used, I guess, and the expectations that are being more than casually thrown around.


 
      
IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 9:37 AM 

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There is a faulty assumption in many of the counter-arguments: that the rituals between different dragon types have to differ somehow.

In light of the new Amian lore, that is 100% wrong. It clearly states they can be anything. There is an alignment restriction and you won't enter into a completely opposite mindset, sure. But there is no indication that it has anything to do with the first ritual. The argument that you would become a white dragon disciple in a different way than you would become a gold dragon disciple is moot, because we've just established there's no predetermined path.

There could be a generic potion named "Wake up, genes!" that activated any dormant, supernatural DNA in your system. In fact, I find that the most plausible option.

Another stretch is what you read into the word "disciple." Yes, it's kind of cool if you seek out a dragon master to serve and follow. It's possible that you find some philosophical texts written by your dragon ancestor and devote your life to those ideals. But that's not a requirement, and I daresay it's the exception. The lore does not indicate a dragon disciple need follow a dragon or dragon type with any ideological zeal. And enforcing such a requirement would be arbitrary and wrong. Ultimately, it's just a name. Master Scouts can be apprentices, monks can be nuns, Pale Masters can be of any color, and so on.

Contradictory statements are being made, and the big picture is not coherent. I don't know what's trying to be accomplished here and why you would want to impose additional OOC restrictions when it's not demanded by lore and in fact, not even supported by lore. The reasons that have been given in support of the claim have been shown to be faulty and in conflict with both canon and the DM-established lore. The question that remains to be answered is: why?

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 10:07 AM 

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DMG, p. 184 wrote:
Requirements:

Special: The player chooses a dragon variety when taking the first level in this prestige class, subject to the DM's approval.


It's been supported by lore since the moment the prestige class first existed.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 10:14 AM 

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That is unhelpful to your case.

1) It speaks of players and DMs, a sphere separate from the IC. Surely you don't suggest the character chooses which ancestry he'd like to have? And it doesn't specify the method of player choice: you could decide by rolling dice the moment you hit that level. And there doesn't seem to have been any research RP with the DM beforehand.

2) Even if it concerned the IC, it supports my point: it's chosen/discovered upon taking that level. Not in the weeks/months/years of research to prepare for the ritual. Not even immediately before taking the level. When taking the first level.

If you wanted to be anal and stick to that wording, it actually prevents knowing your dragon type beforehand because you haven't decided it yet. But I doubt we want to go there.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 10:53 AM 

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DMG, p. 176 wrote:
The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning that the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.

Requirements first, then advancement. Dragon type first, then RDD level 1. Not simultaneous.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 11:19 AM 

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I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make. Whichever way you look at it, the part you quoted earlier doesn't show what you need it to show to make it a counter-argument.

Whatever order you want to do things in, it is instantaneous in the "time out of time" of calculating your build.* When you ding after a fight and proceed to level up, you choose your dragon type and take your first DD level. It doesn't matter much in which order you do them, because either way the choice happens in that moment. When taking the level. Not two weeks in preparation. And it still concerns player choice, nothing to do with a character's knowledge or intentions.

I don't think that's how it really goes, even OOC. You probably have discussed it with your DM beforehand, maybe done some research. But that's what the rule you quoted says, so it isn't helpful in making a reasonable case.

* What I imagine that clause means to clarify is that you need to meet requirements by virtue of your build before you take the level. If a Prestige Class requires arcane casting and also grants arcane casting at 1st level, you can't say you meet the prerequisites automatically by taking the class. Or if you need 8 Lore, you can't hit that 8th rank on the level you enter the Prestige Class. And so on. Doesn't mean it can't apply to special fluff prereqs, but we have to grant in fairness that that's what it's primarily about.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 11:32 AM 

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What you have basically argued is this: A character discovers the type of his draconic heritage (and probably, the specific dragon, given the methods at his desposal) with certainty through his research well before he performs his first ritual, and the possibility of performing that ritual hinges on this certainty. And you have supported this assertion with a quote that says a player chooses his character's dragon type upon taking the class (before, but in the context of the level-up anyway). That isn't very compelling.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 11:53 AM 

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I dunno, I find it reasonably compelling. Maybe not 100% conclusive, but it's enough to convince a reasonable DM that either your interpretation or mine is equally potentially supported by the lore, and that a ruling is required. You can't say Dusty's ruling is unsupported by sources, because it is. Maybe not proven definitively, sure, but that's what we have DMs for.

Anyways, I think I'm basically done here. :) I'll sign out of the thread with a thought... not going to state this as infallible, because I'm not about to flip through every sourcebook that's ever printed a prestige class to prove it. But, if you're right that the player can choose the dragon type without the character discovering it, then I believe that's the only example of such a thing anywhere. No other prestige class allows for that sort of ambiguity, letting a character meet a requirement without knowing it.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 12:39 PM 

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Yeah you're right. I don't think there's a stronger case to be made that the Prestige Class is intended to allow uncertainty. I don't think it is. It's just that I think the default position to questions about what players are allowed to do and whether their interpretations are possible should always be "sure, if there's no reason not to." To me, it's enough to show the possibility of an idea (like I said in the PM topic recently, too). If we can't show why it's explicitly or indirectly in contradiction with the setting's rules and lore, we should give it the benefit of the doubt. Maximal diversity of interpretations is a goal in itself, and generalizing rules may have unintended casualties (like Tormak's example). That's a methodological principle not strictly relevant to the "truth" of lore, but one that should be remembered when making server policy.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 12:58 PM 

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Actually I changed my mind, I'm not signing out just yet. :)

A change of subject, though, to a new question: is it possible for a non-dragonblooded individual to *become* sufficiently dragonblooded (by some sort of mystical means) to become a Dragon Disciple? Like, could my elf who's been RP'd as being a pureblooded, undiluted elf alter her blood in such a way as to meet the class requirements?

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Silent2001
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 16:47 PM 

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I'm fairly certain you have to have small smidge of dragon's blood somewhere in your line to become an RDD.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 16:53 PM 

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I suppose anything could be done with magic, and there might even be a ritual or feat somewhere to accomplish that (like the aforementioned colour-changing, though that wasn't accepted in Amia). However, I'm inclined to say (for coolness' sake if nothing else) that it is easier to accomplish on unborn children. Perhaps adults will reject the new blood. Either way, that would be in line with the Planescape type of Planetouched who're the result of parents being exposed to planar forces or the fetus itself travelling planes in the womb. The parents themselves don't become Genasi. Much like that, I could see experiments of injecting the mother with dragon blood during pregnancy (along with the appropriate magical hoolabaloo) to create supernatural children. That's how I like to envision some sorcerers coming into being, too. I don't know if there's a novel or any particular NPC as an example of this, though.

It's worth noting that other types of human-dragon hybrids have been created magically in the D&D multiverse. Dragonlance comes to mind, with two different cases. So it's probably the kind of thing that could be done if the player and a DM bothered to look into it and come up with something. Whether it's actually happened in FR, I have no idea.

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treant13
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 11 2013, 21:35 PM 

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I was reading the book on Dragon Disciples written by Zelly and found myself with a question. Does the first ritual have to be subtle. Since I have a prismatic DD I was hoping for more flash and bang with the first one, and I mean that literally. Also I wanted the ritual to create a shimmery skin, and or the scales. Again that seems to go against what is written, but i am hoping that though written in a book it isn't written in stone (pun intended, well at least I think it's a pun). :)

Thoughts?

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FastKev
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 11 2013, 21:40 PM 

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I wouldn't believe you have to be subtle at all. I'd say if you want to make a big production out of it then there is nothing stopping you. We all connect to our ancestor blood in different ways.

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Bini
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 11 2013, 21:44 PM 

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That's her fluff, and while it is thorough and can be thought-provoking, it is purely in-character material, not lore. Your rituals can take place in whatever manner you see fit, provided the result of each does not deviate too far from what the official lore is (that is to say exercise discretion).

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jan 12 2013, 19:15 PM 

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Oh, yes. Zelly's book is entirely IC and very biased and exaggerated in many regards. Rituals can be whatever you want them to be!

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Coil
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 1:38 AM 

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Would it be possible for a disciple to advance beyond 8 levels of DD and avoid growing wings? Is there a specific ritual for growing them or is it a trait that is developed along with scales and all that?

Obviously the rest of the RP would still be there but I just want to know if this particular trait is something that can be avoided without having to bring the progress to a halt.


 
      
P Three
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 1:57 AM 

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I think that with a good solid RP request, they can LETO off your wings, as they do with any other limb.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 3:08 AM 

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Indeed! You're perfectly capable of RP'ing the Disciple path without the wings. And it's even kosher lore-wise. "Every path is different."

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 7:37 AM 

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Wings can be clipped, aye.

Also not all dragon types even have wings!

Though the ones we have as freely choosable do.

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Coil
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 11:17 AM 

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I've actually done a lot of research on the dragon types and a ton of other related things so I know how most of it goes.

I dont like involving my own RP into discussions but in this case I feel like it would assist me a bit here, I'd like some opinions on what would be the best thing to do here. Basically the idea was that the character would just choose not to perform that particular ritual as having a pair of wings on your back can become a weakness in your defense while fighting - especially since he is a silverkin, as they have rather large wings. At the same time I read that they also enjoy flying (according to the Draconomicon they actually tend to fly just for the fun of it) and since he will be heavily influenced by his blood and more or less start think like a dragon I imagine he wouldn't want to skip the wings as they would add to his superiority over his old humankin on top of actually wanting wings for flying as well, yet, at the same time, as a strategist he couldn't deny the flaw in his defense. Would he obtain the wings regardless of the weakness? I feel like he would justify it with the obvious flight advantage; IC-wise both options have viable arguements, but I am unsure which option he should prefer IC.

I should probably shoehorn in the fact that I personally don't actually want my character to have wings, but at the same time I want my character to be believeable. Not a big fan of having too many winged folks walking around.


 
      
Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 11:55 AM 

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You could go several ways here. The rituals are by no mean precisely defined.

While lore says you grow wings at level 9 Dragon Disciple, I do not think we have to stick to this 100%.

My collegues may think differntly here, but here's my personal opinion:

In progress of Dragon Diciple levels the Diciple performs rituals to connect and bond with their dragon blood an enhance it. Does that always mean the result are wings? I personally do not think so. Your character would become closer to their dragon type, mentally and physically. But why has the route always to be the same. Perhaps his rites succeed, but instead of wings, the enhancement of his blood instead gives him dragon claws. Or a dragontail. Or the Silverdragons typical spinal frill or frill on the chin.

I personally wouldn't mind to see some different traits some dragon disciples develop. On contrary.

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Coil
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 12:16 PM 

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Oh, I was talking more about wether or not his desire to have them would be stronger than his will to not have an exploitable weakness in having two wings on his back in combat. I got the ritual lore down solid but I'm still unsure wether or not my character would actually perform the ritual or not, since silver dragons enjoy flight and he'd likely develop a superiority complex and would not think he'd be complete without wings.


 
      
Rigela
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 12:20 PM 

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I suppose, really, that choice would lie down to you.

Would his obsession for more over rule his sense of logic if you will, as you say. Perhaps even rationalising it, to himself and others if need be, if he continues on down the path.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 12:28 PM 

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Basically I was trying to offer you an "his desire may be there but his ritual unlocked another trait as the one he desired" if you personally rather not have the wings.

If his own desire to have them is bigger than the "practical" side is an answer only you can give. Seeing it is your character. I personally would say, likely no. Dragons do not see their wings as a weakness. On contrary. They are not "in the way" for them. They are part of their body and in a Silvers case, a very important part as most of their battle strategies include the air and the clouds.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 12:40 PM 

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Also, there's no reason everyone necessarily has the gene for wings. Your dragon blood is diluted and incomplete. You strengthen and restore it with a set of rituals, but there's no reason to assume they're always enough. Perhaps some people simply cannot grow wings or gain a breath weapon because the appropriate gene didn't pass on to them. There's nothing there to awaken with a ritual.

This is sort of what Amarice already said, and I think genetics is a common-sensical explanation of why it might be like that.

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Coil
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 13:00 PM 

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Makes sense. Still got a while to go until the decision needs to be made so I think I'll just analyze the character further before I make a choice. Currently leaning towards having the wings since the only reasonable explanation seems to be alternative/weaker genes and I've already established his dragon blood as being rather, uh, potent.


 
      
IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 13:43 PM 

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Coil wrote:
Currently leaning towards having the wings since the only reasonable explanation seems to be alternative/weaker genes and I've already established his dragon blood as being rather, uh, potent.


But imagine the potential for humiliation and reappraisal once the hubris becomes apparent to him! And genetics isn't about a linear scale of "strong/weak heritage." It's enough that he's missing the one crucial gene that regulates wing growth. In any case most of your genetic material is human, so it's not at all unbelievable that a given trait didn't pass on or remains recessive.

It's up to you and what you feel thematically fits the character, but I don't think there are compelling biological-magical reasons one way or the other.

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Coil
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 16:37 PM 

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After giving it some thought I decided that it would indeed be more appropiate if he got the wings. He'd probably resist the urge at first but it wouldn't take long for him to change his mind, I think. Would be annoying to shell out the 10 DCS for slightly delayed wings anyway.

Edit: Come to think of it, would it be reasonably possible to make this a request? Something along the lines of his blood being faulty in the wing department in particular but eventually have him perform a series of rituals to somehow force their growth by empowering his heritage in some way?


 
      
DustSpray101
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 22:37 PM 

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Come level 9 of the PRC there will be some variety of Draconic 'mutation.' On Amia there have been cases where this has simply been the growth of horns or a tail instead of wings. As you progress past that point, however, I see no reason why you couldn't then make a request to get wings the way Dragon Disciples with wings can do rituals to develop tails or horns later on.

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Coil
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 23:02 PM 

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I assume that would fall under requesting wings for the DC cost, right?


 
      
DustSpray101
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 23:14 PM 

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Only on the tail and if you want the custom horns. A head change is free, to the best of my knowledge, but changing to a head with them from a head without them would still require a request.

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PaladinOfSune
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 14 2013, 23:43 PM 

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Nor would we charge you for having your wings chopped off.

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Ice
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 15 2013, 0:12 AM 

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Pardon my intrusion, but I have to say that I find the comment above mine quite disturbing.

(And, by the way, the story about a wingless disciple sounds interesting)

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Coil
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 15 2013, 0:41 AM 

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Excellent, that'll make things easier for me.

Would requests for further rituals require representation by advancing in additional DD levels? If not, would modifications such as a tail/clawed feet and such require a high amount of levels in the class?


 
      
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