AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Last edited by Dead on Thu, Jun 05 2014, 23:11 PM, edited 6 times in total.

A short explanation

an IC thread I opened in PC Notice board

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What are the Rituals of Palemastery?

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Do I have to perform the rituals?

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Is this canon or official Palemaster lore?

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Can I do the rituals even if I already took the Palemaster levels and RPed the undead graft?

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What can I expect from the Rituals of Palemastery RP?

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Are there more rituals except these basic 7?

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Screenshot samples of Palemaster ritual RP

This is just to give you a taste and a general idea how it all looks like IG. There is a lot more activity.

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A very nice initiative, one that i'm willing to aid interested players in as well (especially drow Palemasters;). I didn't do all of the rituals with my own PM due to IC reasons (she went missing pretty much), but i feel that they're very well thought out and quite an enlightening journey into the world of dead and icky things.

Very nice post, two thumbs up!

I remember that thread "Phalemastery" which in my opinion spiraled out and nothing was concluded from it to the players (to my knowledge). The homebrew lore is very good and detailed but with the many possibilites to custom tailor your own palemaster perhaps it would be a good idea to somehow allow the players to send in how the different aspects or the deathless mastery visualizes on their character?

Thanks for the support.

I added a few screenies just to give a visual presentation to the whole matter.

Nice work, Dead. I like that you're keeping it open to individual creative interpretation.

Great post dead.

Thanks guys I appreciate it. Hopefully it will be of use to new and old players alike.

Perhaps a move to the Lore section so it doesn't get lost in the monster that is GenDis?

Well I was thinking about it, and I figured more new players and people generally visit GD, that's why I opened it here.

I kind of wish something like this existed for Blackguards, though it gives me a few ideas in that regard.

Make one, and I will make a blackguard.

Actually I have a few choice screenshots tucked away somewhere.

I approve bob! Blackguards when played well are amazing.

A shameless bump to keep this thread floating.

Slightly off-topic, but do you have any suggested reading or ideas as regards individuals dealing with negative energy, incorporeal undead, spontaneous necromancy, any prestige classes, spells or feats? I had in mind a character concept for a medium, a sorcerer who channels negative energy by no choice of his own. Undead, especially the spectral kind, would haunt him. I was going to make a special request for more features, like the dead speaking to him (the bodies, or spectral imprints of personalities, much like the clerical Speak with Dead), perhaps some custom feats, and a wraith familiar that just hangs around him (initially) against his will. Depending on how it goes, he might pick up pale mastery later.

There's the Ghul Lord in The Complete Necromancer's Handbook, but that's just a rough concept. Libris Mortis has the clerical necromancer specializing in incorporeal undead, that's no use.

I've never seen anything like that in DnD literature before, and I've actually looked. I played a character in a freelance PbP game once who was a "spontaneous necromancer" similar to what you describe. It started when he was a kid living in the swamp and his brother died of illness...and then came back to life and hung around in the kid's room, terrifying him. He thought he was going crazy and refused to tell his parents. Until the family dog died, and then it came back and the parents found it and tried to kill it, but they just kinda mutilated it and it got back up so they ran away, abandoning the boy when his dead brother hissed at them because the dad thought the boy was a witch.

Later he just wound up living in mausoleums like a monk, with undead people getting up and doing things like keeping the mausoleum clean or answering his questions if he asked them to and still had the mandibles and tongues and working lungs and voiceboxes necessary to speak.

Later he became kind of like a medium, like you suggest, and started interacting in limited ways with the spirit world and the ghosts that reside within it. Honestly, it was a ball.

I tried to do the concept later in a tabletop game but couldn't find anything in FR remotely like it, except to try to fabricate it as a "curse" placed upon by someone else that randomly did spell effects like Animate Dead without the need for onyx, or as a variant wild magician where the "randomness" of his spells were geared towards dealing with the dead and there was a random percentage chance they happened at any given hour (but perhaps moreso at night or something.)

Hmm, yeah. I suspected as much. I have no trouble homebrewing stuff and usually not much trouble selling, either. But references to tie it into the setting are cool.

Is there anything equivalent for other types of elemental damage, perhaps? I'm thinking of a human battery of negative energy (and all the things certain bad people might do with him). The undead aspect is sort of a consequence, not the focus itself. Was gonna get summons reskinned to void wraiths etc. anyway. Too bad the PM summon changes several times.

Oh, there's the Elemental Savant out of Complete Mage, and something similar in one of the FR sourcebooks which is divine-focused or divine compatible - not sure what it is, but it summons mephits or something. Closest thing to a negative-energy battery type class that I've seen is Dread Necromancer out of Heroes of Horror. They do do a bit of undead-raising, but before that they have a negative energy touch attack to play with, and various low-level Necromancy/curse type spells.

Also Iron let me know if you do make this PC, because I have (well, sort of had) a similar one who comes at the issue from the other direction - a wizard less interested in undeath, and more interested in exploring the capabilities of negative energy, as a science. She'd be very interested in studying uh, working with your PC's unique situation.

I know this is Pathfinder, but it's pretty closely resembling your desired effect I think.

Oracle
Class feature: Mystery - Bones
Class feature: Mystery - Occult
Class feature: Oracle Curses (See haunted more specificly.)
Archetype - Possessed Oracle

Though I admit that this is all divine, it is very cool. The Oracle mysteries and curses are sort of a lot like having domains really, the main difference is the lack of armor proficiency and the fact that the Oracle did not choose to serve their patron.

Elemental Savant has nothing to do with ghosts. It draws its powers from harnessing the elements. Master of Shrouds is indeed the closest class that I am aware of. I did an extensive search and so far I've found nothing even remotely similar to the Master of Shrouds.

I have a ton of homebrew ideas though.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Weeper_(3.5e_Class) <- homebrew too

Made the initial request. If you have some homebrew ideas, feel free to toss them at me. Or in game, when/if he gets there.

Dead wrote:

Elemental Savant has nothing to do with ghosts.

...Well, duh. He seemed to be asking about classes focused around some form of elemental attunement with the intent of adapting it for negative energy use, so I gave him that class.

Elemental savant has nothing to do with Negative or Positive energy either. It's just Water, Air, Earth and Fire. But it's as close to what he wants I guess.

A nice IC thread.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=74716

Some nice screenies taken lately.

Giving this thread a shameless bump.

Hi, all.

Is in Amia applicable concepts of "Shades of Death" by Wade Nudson [Dragon #298 (August 2002, page 63)]?

Quote:

It provides justifications for necromancers of both neutral and good alignments, known as the Gray Path and the White Path, respectively.

Necromancers of the Gray Path consider undead to be merely tools. Knowledge isn't good or evil; only the use of it is so. Lawful neutral necromancers consider it their responsibility to control or destroy the undead they encounter to protect others, while chaotic neutral necromancers think of undead as a guilt-free alternative to human slavery.

Good-aligned necromancers of the White Path treat intelligent undead with respect, and use them for noble ends. They collect knowledge of necromancy to use it against dangerous undead and evil necromancers. Lawful good necromancers may be militaristic crusaders who command a small number of undead cohorts. Chaotic good necromancers consider their undead to be comrades rather than servants, and form tightly-knit teams.

(get here)

Perhaps not good aligned in the sense of using undead as tools but the church of Jergal is rather fitting the description you linked to.

I know 'I'm a grey necromancer' gets thrown around Bendir Dale a lot. But for the most part people who take exception to undead put them straight on the smite train anyway.

It does? Not around Nof then and wisely so.

Good aligned necromancers are few and far between (Its possible if you focus on wails etc to smite your foes and use the knowledge to understand and combat undead more efficiently) but as soon as you start to create undead (and the exceptions on that are few) you're on a slippery slope towards another alignment. There is a reason PM alignment cannot be good.

Technically zombies, skeletons and similar mindless undead cannot possibly be Neutral Evil. A creature that has no intelligence score cannot be treated as good or evil for it does not have the power to comprehend the difference. We are basing our RP on a flawed alignment system.

A lion would attempt kill you if you get into its range, and so would an uncontrolled skeleton. Thus in my honest opinion, creation of skeletons and zombies cannot possibly be an act of evil. It does not involve the soul, only a corpse of deceased creature (any creature). Digging up a corpse, using a corpse of a kobold you have just slain or even creating your own corpse (find IC how), is not an act of evil. Creating a skeleton out of it, should not be an act of evil by default. A mindless undead is a tool, not an evil creature. Whether it shall be an act of evil or not, should depend on the manner your creation is put to use.

If there are creatures such as Archliches (liches with non-evil alignment), then I imagine the same extremely rare exceptions can be found with the Necromancers as well. Do mind, that most of the undead types are evil by default and without exception, and therefore creation of such undead is an act of evil. As Hudson said, it is a slippery slope. Having a Necromancer with good alignment could change the very structure of the server lore wise. It would affect many people, starting with those who would be forced to accept that the universe itself allowed someone to spawn an undead while letting the said individual to remain on the good side of the alignment system.

Book of Vile Darkness wrote:

Unliving corpses—corrupt mockeries of life and purity—
are inherently evil. Creating them is one of the most
heinous crimes against the world that a character can
commit. Even if they are commanded to do something
good, undead invariably bring negative energy into the
world, which makes it a darker and more evil place.

Despite this, it goes on to list about one or two good Liches later on in the book. One of which is even a halfling. :lol:

There is nothing evil about Negative Energy.

Nothing innately evil about it, no. It's simply how people use it. Ie; animation.

A few more awesome screenshots to give this thread a bump.

I can definitely attest that the Palemaster class on amia and the role-play that follows with it, Not also to mention the rituals and such encouragement you get behind it is amazing, Deep and really changes your character.

Just also going to support these screenshots due to that being the player character doing the rituals being me as shown above in dead's screenies, Its a small taste of what you, Yourself as a player can experience.

It is amazing experience so far, I haven't experienced the full trek yet, But honestly it has made my character so meaningful and although mechanically you do get the feats and abilities, Doing this role-play makes you kind of... appreciate the feats and role-play better behind it!

I would also encourage newer and experienced players alike to give this a try if it peaks your interest and by all means, Just ask!

The first (to my knowledge) player who did not take the skeletal arm graft, but went with an alternative solution. Definitely something worthy looking into.

Putting up a screenie for a result of the "Bone Skin" ritual.

[Secret Bump.]

Ahriman wrote:

Putting up a screenie for a result of someone's first PM ritual.

Technically this isn't true, but the ritual did involve other characters.

Giving another one for the scrapbook!

From this thread.

Solvaras wrote:

Since we're protecting lore:

Libris Mortis: The Book of Undead wrote:

Beginning at 2nd level, a pale master gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level.

The quote conveniently leaves out the very next sentence:

Libris Mortis: The Book of Undead wrote:

He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of turning or destroying undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on).

Even the lore of the class says it doesnt get an upgraded familiar.

That is not the point. Palemaster is not a failed wizard. That really needs to be stressed out. A Weapon Master does not get weapon specialization a fighter does, and it does not get as many bonus feats as fighter does, but you cannot ever consider a weapon master to be a failed fighter, or a fighter who gave up on his career, just because a weapon master decided to make a close ki bond with a weapon of his choice. The same is applied to the Palemaster.

At the same time, though, it's not like a palemaster carries all the same characteristics of the wizard, just like a weapon master doesn't carry the same characteristics as a fighter. My own opinion is that, if a PrC is given most of the powers and abilities of a base class, while still gaining all of those extra goodies for both RP and mechanics, it becomes fairly broken. Not to mention, it loses it's point as a separate class type. The palemaster itself does continue gaining the spells of their base class, as stated in the Libris Mortis. I'm not personally stating that they are a failed wizard. Far from it, in fact. Overall, NWN palemasters are actually more powerful than their PnP counterparts. Even so much as to completely disregard (due to the inability for NWN's engine to really enforce such a thing) the prerequisite that requires the wizard to be locked in a tomb/crypt with animate undead wandering its halls. But, a lot of the focus on a palemaster (or any PrC for that matter) is for the sake of that particular focus, through both RP and similar. I mean, I could also be misunderstanding everything, but that's generally how prestige classes work, as a whole. In this particular case, the wizard in question would be giving up part of their humanity and empathy in order to focus heavily on the art of necromancy. So much so that they even perform self mutilation for the sake of furthering their pursuits.

Give him 2000 years and a pointy hat and he'll kick Elminster's arse.

He'd have also not raised to the second-highest rank in the church of Velsharoon (not even being a cleric) or the highest rank in the Magisterium Mortis if he were a 'failed wizard'. I think his arcane career has been as successful as most dedicated mage-players, perhaps more so considering he's successfully beat mortality itself. :twisted:

Hyper specialization is the hallmark of a lot of wizards, including the Red Wizards of Thay. In the case of the Pale Master, they're so hyper specialized and so proficient that they sacrifice even their humanity in search of a ertain way of existence. I've yet to meet a pale master in game that didn't say undeath was their eventual goal and that pale mastery was an extension of that goal.

I never refered to them as failed wizards. I can, however, see how others can have that perception. Those who would weaken their abilites as a wizard to persue deathless mastery. I dont see it that way, mainly because of all the benifits you get from being a palemaster. However, you wanted to bring lore in to justify having an upgraded familiar and in no sourcebooks I can find do they get one. They give up that benifit to advance in levels of palemaster.

I should also point out that, in PnP, familiars aren't even meant for combat. In fact, if a familiar is used for combat, it will almost surely die. The familiars of NWN are totally different from PnP as things are. Familiars like pseudodragons, mephits, etc, aren't even something you can get until a later level, and that level varies depending on the specific familiar type. The starting familiars are generally just small animals. One good thing NWN2 did was that they made familiars almos exactly like they were supposed to be.

I apologize if this went particularly off topic from the post, however. I wasn't sure if I should've posted that here or in the original thread. But yes.

Actually it's a valid point Terallis. Familiars are more meant for scouting, and the providing of a small boon to the caster , as well as a means to deliver touch spells beyond the normal reach.

I do also get what is being said about the Pale Master, mind .. they are powerful wielders of Necromancy whom have transformed themselves an also to some extent have a superior understanding of undead allowing them to be better summoners of such, if I remember the PnP version correctly.

I can agree with everything that was said above.

Another character en route to becoming awesome.

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