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I can probably word this better and I'm sure I have more questions, but so far I have just these that are giving me problems.

1. Can true-seeing be beaten by spells aside from dispelling? Can illusions (for instance, disguise self) ever beat true-seeing, or does true-seeing mean "the jig is up"?

2. Do spells exist in this setting that allow an old mage look and feel young? Not just spells to smooth out the wrinkles and put color back in your hair, but what about making your voice sound younger, alleviate achy bones and allow one to go adventuring (and so on)?

3. Can a mage prolong their life with magic- outside of trying to become undead? If they can, what sort of repercussions can be expected by them doing so?

EDIT: Here's another- Is sorcery usually discovered early in life? Would it be too far-fetched for an older person to find that they have sorcerous abilities?

1. I'm not sure.

2. Yes.

3. Yes. Depends on the technique. For instance in Tarkuul you'd be encouraged to do it. In Kohlingen you'd prolly be imprisoned for life or something like that if discovered.

4. Regardless of the origin of a sorcerer's power, most discover their power some time during puberty, where it begins to manifest in unpredictable and often disturbing manners, such as haunting lights or mysterious sounds.

So anything's possible, even if it's not very likely.

1) If I recall correctly the only thing that can beat True Seeing is a Shifter's shapes because they are actually changing their core self. Magic is cut through by True Seeing.

Dead managed to cover my thoughts on the rest!

True seeing > illusion for the most part!

Yeah, I thought so ;-; thanks for the responses so far, they've been helpful!

How about transmutation? Can the school be used to modify the details of one's appearance, and does true-seeing beat these alterations?

DireCorbie wrote:

Yeah, I thought so ;-; thanks for the responses so far, they've been helpful!

How about transmutation? Can the school be used to modify the details of one's appearance, and does true-seeing beat these alterations?

In Amian history yes, it can see through them, but it is a debate that's been had many times before. True-seeing cannot see through a Shifter or Druid shape, but *sigh* can see through a Transmutation shape. Which is kind of silly. We say that when looking at a Polymorphed dragon, you see the outline of the caster inside of it. But physically, there is no body there suspended in a dragon's body or something; you turn your body into a recreation of that creature.

To address your first question, yes, Transmutation can be used to change ones appearance. Alter Self is basically a mini-version of Polymorph Self that allows to change hair, skin, eyes, basically every superficial feature. There is no reason someone couldn't use it to appear as a younger version of yourself. And I suppose if you shift yourself into a younger versions body, you could actually feel younger for the duration of it. I mean, if you can shift into a giant spider and feel like a giant spider, why not.

Oh, forgot about the original post.

1. Yes, True-Seeing and Divination in general is there to pierce Illusion most of the time. It is kind of an arms race between the two, with True-Seeing being the Nuclear Option.

2. Yep; see my previous post.

3. There are a few ways. Goodness knows WotC has used Potions of Longevity to keep its favorite characters puttering around. The only examples I can think of are kinda drastic, but death by old age is one of the things you have to play hardball to avoid in Forgotten Realms. Ioulaum created a spell I recall that gave the caster life for each being killed. A mage could have used Clone and kept a younger version of himself as a backup perhaps, which might be good for explaining an old mage losing most of his spellcasting ability and having to start over again in a younger body. But that doesn't actually extend you life, it just gives you a newer body until you die of natural causes I suppose. Maybe there are some rituals similar to Dragon Disciple where you splice your blood with that of a magical creature to gain some longevity or other traits. Hell, go Harry Potter and drink Unicorn blood, maybe.

4. Generally speaking, yes, if it comes about through genetics. The reasoning is usually chalked up to all the changes that happen in puberty sparking, being sparked by, or maybe just coinciding with all the changes the blood can bring about. Think Peter Parker or something. But, if the sorcery spawns from something like a traumatic event or a pact, or some other non-genetic source, it is possible... possible to happen later in life. But you could equally describe it as someone realizing some latent sorcerous potential early in their life, but not investing the time needed to harness it until much later. Not every sorcerer is gung-ho about their gift/curse. Some are outright terrified by them. So maybe a PC realizes they have this ability, hides it to have some other type of life, but eventually comes back to it later.

3. There is a monk of the long death who is older than most countries in FR and achieved immortality by drinking a potion of it.

DireCorbie wrote:

Yeah, I thought so ;-; thanks for the responses so far, they've been helpful!

How about transmutation? Can the school be used to modify the details of one's appearance, and does true-seeing beat these alterations?

Shapechange is Transmutation. Technically, it transforms you into a desired creature (akin to the shifters ability), so it is logical that the True Seeing wouldn't be able to pierce it. However, I wouldn't vouch for it myself and I would check it with a DM, just in case.

I am quite sure the rule is TS beats shapeshifting by spell as DI mentioned above.

Only shifters and druids can fool TS with their shifts as long as they don't die.

I never liked that idea myself. A spell that is available to pretty much -everyone- kills an entire spell school.

Quote:

True Seeing
Changed to give Ultravision, See Invisible, and adds +10 Spot instead of the Bioware default spell.

So not even mechanically it is a real True Seeing. I'm having a hard time getting this, but this may not be the best place to discuss it.

Hudson wrote:

Only shifters and druids can fool TS with their shifts as long as they don't die.

Ofc, unless they learn 1000 faces, where if they die in that fact their body retains it

Kamina wrote:

Hudson wrote:

Only shifters and druids can fool TS with their shifts as long as they don't die.

Ofc, unless they learn 1000 faces, where if they die in that fact their body retains it

Not sure if you are joking, but it may be worthy to say that they always return to their original form when slain, even though it is not mechanically represented.

I am inclined to think the old rule of TS detecting illusions is a little awkward for us. It does not do that mechanically, so enforcing is a pain, it does not work like a regular TS as Dead pointed out, and it is available all too easily. I would not mind seeing it changed. On the spell page, you could state "True Seeing has no effects other than what is mechanically represented in game." That would clear it up for good. You could post that current ruling too, but it would be a much longer and more complex message, which is always undesirable ceteris paribus.

Dead is correct. If your character dies while having utilized Thousand Faces, they return to their original form. Even though this does not mechanically happen, you do have to do so or at least make mention of it so people are aware.

Last edited by IronAngel on Tue, Apr 08 2014, 12:36 PM, edited 1 time in total.

That is another rule that probably either ought to be changed, or enforced mechanically. We should constantly strive to minimize the amount of trivia like this. I mean, is there some reason to hold onto the rule other than that's just how it happens to go in PnP? If there is, that is, if it's important enough, it probably warrants fixing. If it's not that important (weighed against the long list of dev-work), is it worth having a rule for?

Technically it's a PnP effect, and everything PnP-derived about abilities and spells needs consent to apply. The whole point of that rule is to ensure that players can rely on their spells and abilities working as they actually work in game, and everything extra is negotiable. I know there are special rules for special abilities that contradict the rule, but the principle is sound and worth holding onto.

It's not a big deal, of course, but unnecessary baggage is bad in itself. At the very least, the exact rules of the feat should be updated here:
viewtopic.php?p=934676#p934676

Yes, infact, not emoting returning (or making it quite clear in another way) to your normal shape when using 1000 faces and dying is grounds for immediately and inrevocable removal of the widget.

We're working on list with rules like this one so there won't be any misunderstandings.

That is good to hear. I still think (or know, rather) that it would be better if a list was not needed in the first place. Every single item should be scrutinized, and only enforced if it is absolutely necessary for game balance/setting integrity. Nobody can be expected to keep the forums open on another screen to make sure they use the resources in game legally. It sort of contradicts the rule of WYSIWYG.

Easy solution, add the restriction to the bio of the Thousand Faces widget. That way, nobody has an excuse to not know.

True that Mana.

But we have some more issues like this and one clear (hopefully short) list would help (Next to adding it on the widget) to avoid confusion. For users and for people who don't have the widget.

Go on the server, kill someone that is 1kfaced and tell me what happens.

Just tested it. It works! Turns you into your original form.

Cool! That's one worry less!

You made Thousand Faces work properly? Terra, you are my new one true love.

It was an easy change so I just did it. Besides, I've taken the 1kfaces lessons trice with DM oversight and never once was I told about this rule. Infact I'm pretty sure I was told it was supernatural and as such stuck even though death just because of how it worked. Anyway, mechanical rules are absolute.

edit: oh yeah, this is the lore forum. Should probably shave of these offtopic posts so the thread can continue where it left off.

Oh, I make a mis-informed post, go to town to do shopping and not only pointed out wrong, but now it's enforced

Sorry about that, luckily I've yet to die/tell anyone IC that so thanks for informing me!

I'm actually okay with True Seeing still piercing a majority of illusions, and would much rather see us nix the dumb part about seeing through polymorph. Divination and Illusion are supposed to fight back and forth. But for the original PnP to give it the ability to trump yet another class is unneeded, for the reasons I already stated; transmutation is actual physical change, not illusionary. If we agree that our version of True Seeing isn't event that original version, I say pare back on that extraneous stuff. It pretty much is a different beast when the original says it doesn't help you spot hiding creatures and, you know, our version does exactly that.

Kamina wrote:

Oh, I make a mis-informed post, go to town to do shopping and not only pointed out wrong, but now it's enforced

Sorry about that, luckily I've yet to die/tell anyone IC that so thanks for informing me!

Not only that you've made a mis-informed post, but you also made Terra change the script so it now works properly. You don't have to worry about it.

Re: Truesight, I'd be fine with the spell being ruled to have only the specific effects listed in its description, and not all the extra illusion-piercing stuff, as mentioned above, if we just change the name of the spell. As long as it's "True Seeing," people will expect it to be True Seeing, and justifiably so. If it's just "Perfect Vision" or some such thing, the "problem" vanishes.

But I like my True Seeing as it is. Perhaps this spell could be more potent by having spell focuses. ( I am aware of the current bonuses received by the spell focuses, no need to inform me of them. )

What I mean is:

With Epic Spell Focus Divination, the caster can see through illusory and transmutation changes.

Source: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm

Quote:

True Seeing
Divination
Level: Clr 5, Drd 7, Knowledge 5, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

Material Component
An ointment for the eyes that costs 250 gp and is made from mushroom powder, saffron, and fat.

Whereas I understand that the game itself does not show this mechanically, but then again, it is roleplayable aspect in game. I would not like to see Divination school taken to less powerful than it already is, whether it is mechanically-wise or lore-wise.

(Though I admit, I am shamelessly biased in this.) On top of that, even though we can argue that transmutation changes are done to the body, the problem is that they still are spells structured from the Weave. True Seeing sees past the formulated magic and that is the actual blueprint of the person. Shifters and Druids change the very core of their beings, which I will refer to as blueprints, when these blueprints are being changed, the actual form of the being is that what they take. Transmutation spells, do not change the blueprints themselves, but actually merely structure magic around you to create an appearance and powers of some entities through polymorphing. This magic is pierced by True Seeing, because under it lies the actual blueprint of the person.

The spell is designed to battle other casters who use magical means to disguise or whatnot, not people who actually are damn skilled at disguising them.

If shifters changed the core of their being, their blueprints, they wouldn't shift out when they die.

Mercedes wrote:

If shifters changed the core of their being, their blueprints, they wouldn't shift out when they die.

But they *do* shift out when they die. Therefore...

Liz wrote:

Mercedes wrote:

If shifters changed the core of their being, their blueprints, they wouldn't shift out when they die.

But they *do* shift out when they die. Therefore...

Their ability to shapeshift is still a supernatural ability. They do change their state of being, but the core remains the same. They will never be a full-blooded creature capable of everything a regular creature is capable of (procreation for instance). The thing is, when you die, the channeling of the supernatural ability you were maintaining ceases to exist, and therefore, you are reverted to your original form. You cannot shapeshift in a dead magic zone, or an anti-magic field either because your ability to do such is still based on something that is supernatural.

I feel like the whole core vs actual shifting is a bit of speculation at best. The PnP never mentions such things as far as I am aware and the descriptions are as simple this character is able to take the form of X. I am personally not a fan of saying druid or shifter shapechanging is somehow more pure than its Transmutation counterparts; they are both just as extensive in what forms can be taken and both just as vague in how it actually happens. To be both honest and frank, I've always seen the idea that those forms of shapechange being more holistic or pure as stemming from our massive boner, as a server, for the Shifter class. Or alternatively a spite about the perception mages being as good as Shifters in form changing, which is silly; the fact that Shifters get more forms with better abilities proves that focus their focus in the craft makes them better, without adhering to some mumbo jumbo that it is the only true and complete form of changing ones shape.

With that rant out of the way, we should probably get some official things written down if we expect people to know certain forms cant be seen through, for whatever bogus reasons. I do not recall anything in the journal or sidebar that points to such things the law of the land, without someone already being acquainted with the PnP version. But I think the whole rule leads to an excuse to metagame anything but druids and shifters outright, because magerz r 2 powerfulz alr3ady!11!

What DI said.

I see two possible solutions for TS: either write down that it sees through all illusions and shapechanges, or state that it has no additional effects. The current situation is the worst, having the ask people OOC just what kind of a shapechange they're using now and what it would look like to your character. The first solution is problematic, though, because it doesn't actually see through Displacement and Improved Invisibility like it's supposed to. You still get the concealment penalty to hit. Nor does it make you immune to what few offensive illusion spells there are. It's very questionable to make an OOC rule about the spell that contradicts something already handled by the engine. Can I ask my opponent in PvP to strip their Imp Invis because IC, it should not affect me? Or prohibit them from using Weird (nevermind that Mindblank already negates it) because I shouldn't really die as long as I have TS?

DireCorbie wrote:

1. Can true-seeing be beaten by spells aside from dispelling? Can illusions (for instance, disguise self) ever beat true-seeing, or does true-seeing mean "the jig is up"?

True Seeing will see through damn near anything especially illusions and even actual physical changes like Polymorph and Shapechange spells. But not Shifter or Druid shape changes. There is a way to change your shape and render True Seeing incapable of breaching it without taking Druid or Shifter levels. At least I was led to believe, but you'll have to find that on your own and do a lot of RP to learn it.

DireCorbie wrote:

2. Do spells exist in this setting that allow an old mage look and feel young? Not just spells to smooth out the wrinkles and put color back in your hair, but what about making your voice sound younger, alleviate achy bones and allow one to go adventuring (and so on)?

Yep.

DireCorbie wrote:

3. Can a mage prolong their life with magic- outside of trying to become undead? If they can, what sort of repercussions can be expected by them doing so?

Yes there are, I wouldn't necessarily say they are evil spells exactly like Dead said. Spells like Steal Life from the Book of Vile Rituals, where you are actually taking years from another and adding them to yourself. Looking at badass wizards like Khelben Blackstaff who was age 960 before he died. He was a human and wouldn't be the type to just Steal Life someone (least I wouldn't think). So I would definitely say that it's possible.

Time will never pass that quickly on amia for you to start worrying about dying of old age. But if this is a driving force for your character so afraid of dying of old age, shoot for the stars and the DMs can decide from there.

Ðraco wrote:

Time will never pass that quickly on amia

Time passes at the relativistic speed of plot, depending on the observing player and the complex network of interacting characters. Gagis has lost several generations of friends to old age already.

Silvarus wrote:

Ðraco wrote:

Time will never pass that quickly on amia

Time passes at the relativistic speed of plot, depending on the observing player and the complex network of interacting characters. Gagis has lost several generations of friends to old age already.

Well that leaves a level of inconsistency, I judge time as a little quicker than usual. Draco aging roughly 8 years since I made him 4 years ago. But if entire lives are being lived in the span of 1 year, how do you even explain that?

I'm sure there is spells to accomplish this, particularly disguise spells... now if we're talking about a mage becoming physically younger...

oooooh... that might be some form of necromancer stealing life and soul from people. very evil.

Ðraco wrote:

Silvarus wrote:

Ðraco wrote:

Time will never pass that quickly on amia

Time passes at the relativistic speed of plot, depending on the observing player and the complex network of interacting characters. Gagis has lost several generations of friends to old age already.

Well that leaves a level of inconsistency, I judge time as a little quicker than usual. Draco aging roughly 8 years since I made him 4 years ago. But if entire lives are being lived in the span of 1 year, how do you even explain that?

I go by the rule of thumb of of either one RL year ~ a decade in game or a RL month ~ a year in game, but that choice is completely arbitrary and everyone has their own interpretation. That would mean that Gagis was first seen on Amia for the first time some 150 years ago, give or take fifty years, which fits rather well together with the progress of Amian history and the assumed lifespans of characters that have come and gone during that time since a few years tends to be about how long any given character is played in my experience, so them disappearing during a few years of me not playing on Amia is neatly explained by everyone Gagis knows growing old and either retiring or dying of old age.

On the topic of True Sight - It doesn't give true sight on amia. Just check the spell descriptions in the sidebar.

I solved your lore, yo. You got nothing left to discuss yao! :mrgreen:

Could such illusions and transmutations be applied with Permanency? Perhaps on the caster itself or on an item that applies the affect when the person puts it on? Maybe a necklace that makes an old man look young and vibrant again whenever he puts it on?

That said: what are the house rules on using Permanency? I've seen quite a few folk use it to advance plots with PnP spells and other Amiabrew effects on items.

Very_Svensk wrote:

On the topic of True Sight - It doesn't give true sight on amia. Just check the spell descriptions in the sidebar.

I solved your lore, yo. You got nothing left to discuss yao! :mrgreen:

DM plots and DM discretion might disagree Svensk.

Mercedes wrote:

That said: what are the house rules on using Permanency? I've seen quite a few folk use it to advance plots with PnP spells and other Amiabrew effects on items.

My character used it a lot of times. But it requires DM approval.

What Dead said.

Permanancy is quite possible but not without DM oversight/ approval.

Grymia wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

On the topic of True Sight - It doesn't give true sight on amia. Just check the spell descriptions in the sidebar.

I solved your lore, yo. You got nothing left to discuss yao! :mrgreen:

DM plots and DM discretion might disagree Svensk.

Woah Woah... So True sight isn't true sight when i use it on a daily basis, but when there's a DM around it's suddenly True-TRUE-sight?

We definitely need a ruling here... A ruling that is placed next to the True Seeing description.

There already is a ruling on PnP spells, Svensk.

Doesn't answer my inquiry though.

Sure it does.

True Seeing on Amia does what the Amia spell does (spot, see invisible, ultravision) and nothing more. Any effects beyond those are from a PnP spell, not an NWN spell, and therefore you can access them all you like, *if* you get the ok from the other players / DM involved.

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