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[ 31 posts ] |
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Elorathall
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 Posted: Tue, Apr 22 2014, 15:50 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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Do mathematics (more advanced than basic calculus, that is) and statistics exist as academic or practical fields in the Forgotten Realms? If so, do you have any references to indicate such? With magic filling in so many gaps, I'm curious if these fields would have developed en par with medieval/renaissance levels of development. Or more. Or less?
_________________
Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"
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IronAngel
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Posted: Tue, Apr 22 2014, 16:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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No references I can think of, but I don't see why not. The god of logic (Auppenser) is dead, so logic probably has not advanced much in recent times. Then again, see late medieval modal logic and Leibniz; it's pretty avanced suff. Mathematics was fairly advanced even in Ancient times, and has a lot of practical application (in construction for example) regardless of magic. And it's quite possible that many wizard spell-research is actually done in mathematical format.
I would think it has a strong esoteric aspect to it, though. It is not just a practical science, it has deeper meaning about the secrets of the universe. I can see various mathematical traditions and cults with competing and complementing theories. Relations of heavenly bodies, structure of the human soul, etc.
I am not sure about statistics. I don't know its history in the real world, but it is essentially about a great amount of data. Would people in the Realms have that kind of data to apply statistical mathematics to? There are few accurate census reports let alone reliable data about import and export or whatever. It's not impossible, since there's certainly the intellectual capacity to invent such tools, but is there a real motive for it? Perhaps not.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Silvarus
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Posted: Tue, Apr 22 2014, 16:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
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IronAngel wrote: I would think it has a strong esoteric aspect to it, though. It is not just a practical science, it has deeper meaning about the secrets of the universe. I can see various mathematical traditions and cults with competing and complementing theories. Relations of heavenly bodies, structure of the human soul, etc. This is how mathematics was in history for a long time. The original authors of old discoveries wrote in a VERY different way than how we represent their inventions nowadays. Add a lot of clumsy notation, alchemy, occultist references and metaphysical philosophy in and you can translate modern math pretty well to what our wizardly characters might know. 
_________________
Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf
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Hudson
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Posted: Wed, Apr 23 2014, 10:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Location: Bendir's Dale
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The guvners in planescape are big on mathemetics and their sub sect the Mathematicians even moreso. But granted, that's not Amia.
I think mathematics defenitely is a topic sages find very intesting to debate but I find very little practical uses of it in the FR setting so I am not sure about how much it is actually used.
I think statistics are less well developped as there aren't many tools to assist people with this and I never really saw any exemple of it being adopted in the realms either.
Magic and mathematics may well blend into each other as well blurring the line even further and I agree with you that the people in the FR might have less incentive to develop mathemetics and statistics because they have magic to compensate which people on earth lacked in the middle ages.
_________________
Characters played:
Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)
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Terra_777
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Posted: Thu, Apr 24 2014, 9:26 AM |
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Administrative Developer
Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Location: Sweden
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I do think mathematics is a very big part in magic but its not referred to as math. For example doing the somatics for a spell or drawing a ritual circle would definitely be math orientated but its probably not seen or referred to as math. Same with crafting and measurements. However I don't think pure maths and statistics is very common. ICly its hard to collect data to compile statistics that is bigger then "7 elves and 3 humans entered my shop, that means 7 out of 10 of my customers today was elves. I'm gonna put more bows on display because elves are pretty." or whatever data your character might have gathered.
_________________
Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Thu, Apr 24 2014, 10:29 AM |
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Tester
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Terra_777 wrote: I do think mathematics is a very big part in magic but its not referred to as math. For example doing the somatics for a spell or drawing a ritual circle would definitely be math orientated but its probably not seen or referred to as math... However I don't think pure maths and statistics is very common. It would be hard to define what is "pure math" in the FR setting. For all we know some paradigms of wizardry could necessitate the use of expanded Taylor series. Maybe some arcanists must employ 4th dimensional non-Euclidean geometry to trace the pattern that creates a Planar Anchor. Math is only pure so long as it has no real world application and is abstract. But with Magic, the abstract becomes concrete on a regular basis; there really is no saying what is needed and not needed. It could very easily be referred to as math. But it simply wouldn't be our notion of it, because things that don't have any practical value in our universe could potentially have many in FR. _________________  You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Vito Corvus
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Posted: Thu, Apr 24 2014, 13:32 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2014
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As an example of something which has already been used on Amia: Quote: In a report by the Amian Recorder, Marge Inavera, a statistical analyst working for Minister of Finance Joseph Maximillian states to prophetic words: “Ultimately, there is little cause for concern. Cordor is nowhere near bankruptcy, and any shifting of funds will be marginal. All it takes is one little change to have a huge impact on the city’s prosperity.” I was reading this topic earlier, because much of Vito's work relies upon some mathematical strategy procedures. But also in reading the History and Threat of the Arcanum and Collin Reyes, I found this quote.
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Hudson
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Posted: Thu, Apr 24 2014, 13:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Location: Bendir's Dale
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That's just fluffy talk to confuse the good citizens of Cordor into believing Cordor isn't bankrupt! 
_________________
Characters played:
Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)
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Vito Corvus
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Posted: Thu, Apr 24 2014, 13:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2014
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If Cordor has a 'statistical analyst' who works for a department of finance, I'd assume that statistics are present in the setting to a reasonable extent. Mathematics is naturally going to be tied with finance and statistics. That is what I was getting at.
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bobofwestoregonusa
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Posted: Thu, May 29 2014, 11:52 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Location: Eastern Washington
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We have wizards with a 44 int score, so I'd like to think there's some form of highly advanced mathematics in the realms.
_________________  Gerald EdmundDiscord: Metal Viking Guy #5433 DC taxation is theft!
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Laiquendi Ohtar
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Posted: Thu, May 29 2014, 12:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
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Statistics were invented in a very early history, derivatives first appear in 17th century, so...
not to mention trigonometry appeared in ancient Greece.
The problem is not with is it there, but can anyone use it - and as was mentioned earlier, magician with int score of 40 will easily comprehend that. I'd imagine character of int 10 can get basic statistics.
_________________ 
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bobofwestoregonusa
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Posted: Thu, May 29 2014, 13:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Location: Eastern Washington
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Gerald has a 13 INT and hates basic economics, so he pawned it off on Draco.
_________________ Gerald EdmundDiscord: Metal Viking Guy #5433 DC taxation is theft!
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Aiseth
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Posted: Thu, May 29 2014, 22:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Dec 2011
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I think my ol buddy Vyashir once referred to himself as an expert in metaphysics of the weave, in which he meant applied mathematics, of which he applied to the game rather well, as did DM events using some of the mathematical symbols. Vyashir's player was too informed on the language of nature for his own good, so the government offered him a choice between being a Jeopardy contestant or jail time, as he was working on something big... There were many rumors and secrets harbored as to his whereabouts and eventually I learned he was killed-off OOCly, I suspect, by the FBI for sneaking into a government own region of the Nevada Desert with a Stolen Military Jeep and someone else's fingerprints. I also heard he launched something into space before he was shot dead.
RIP Robert.
_________________  MuseReader: Aiseth Nosdivan- Master Enchantress 
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Fri, May 30 2014, 20:09 PM |
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Tester
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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Statistics arose out of 2 things, gambling and insurance. Technically, game theory and risk analysis. Its reasonable to assume they exist as both might exist but to what degree is another story.
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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bobofwestoregonusa
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Posted: Sun, Jun 01 2014, 9:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Location: Eastern Washington
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Aiseth wrote: I think my ol buddy Vyashir once referred to himself as an expert in metaphysics of the weave, in which he meant applied mathematics, of which he applied to the game rather well, as did DM events using some of the mathematical symbols. Vyashir's player was too informed on the language of nature for his own good, so the government offered him a choice between being a Jeopardy contestant or jail time, as he was working on something big... There were many rumors and secrets harbored as to his whereabouts and eventually I learned he was killed-off OOCly, I suspect, by the FBI for sneaking into a government own region of the Nevada Desert with a Stolen Military Jeep and someone else's fingerprints. I also heard he launched something into space before he was shot dead.
RIP Robert.  _________________ Gerald EdmundDiscord: Metal Viking Guy #5433 DC taxation is theft!
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Hudson
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Posted: Mon, Jun 02 2014, 9:48 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Location: Bendir's Dale
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... I don't get the point of your post either Muse.
This is the lore forum and your post seems to be much more fitting for the ooc forum.
_________________
Characters played:
Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)
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Eurgiga
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Posted: Thu, Jun 05 2014, 3:21 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jun 2012
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I'd say Newtonian physics is well within the capacity of the setting, given the insanely smart wizards out there.
_________________
~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.
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Yossarin
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Posted: Fri, Jun 06 2014, 1:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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I recently spent some time looking over a new FR related sourcebook that has been published, I believe in anticipation of 5th Edition. I am considering buying it to look over it more thoroughly, but the entire book speaks to "fluffy" things like this and sort of presents a Forgotten Realms that is more in line with your fantasy setting and not so much in line with your medieval setting. The fantasy setting can have modern elements in it, but they are elements that often have a basis in magic, since FR is a "high magic" setting. The gist was that the FR setting allowed players and DMs to shift this scale as they saw fit, so the question is less about mathematics and statistics in FR and more about mathematics and statistics in Amia. Personal opinion? Mathematics is an established must, and statistics probably doesn't resemble quite what we think of today and is more often a series of clumsy calculations rooted more in math than any social sciences. Until some enterprising wizard creates a powerful 8th or 9th level spell or ritual that takes slightly more accurate "statistics" in half the time. Also, I would consider Marge Inavera's name and think twice about taking anything she says too factually! 
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shadowclasper
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Posted: Fri, Jun 06 2014, 4:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Jun 2014
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Okay, we have an entire sets of spells that basically work on the premise of the manipulation of chance and luck. We have at least one god as I recall who has allowed for the invention of gun powder in a complex enough form for accurate explosive force and firearms, though his cult closely guards those particular secrets.
Mages have to deal with friggin' multidimensional physics, and most planes do not operate under the same physical laws as the prime material plane, and they have to calculate all of those.
I think it's safe to say that they're at a statistics level of knowledge, it's just not widely spread.
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Elorathall
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Posted: Fri, Jun 06 2014, 9:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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Yossarin wrote: Until some enterprising wizard cleric creates a powerful 8th or 9th level spell or ritual that takes slightly more accurate "statistics" in half the time. Fixed and claimed.
_________________
Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"
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Q't'ulu
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Posted: Fri, Jun 06 2014, 10:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 20 Jun 2012
Location: Russia, St.Petersburg
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IMHO, as crosslink of geologist and computer scientist, the math of Faerun stalls on level up to (pre-)Renessance. As for statistics, it is *very* dependend on raw calculation power (well, paralleled abacuses may do the trick) *and* advanced mathematics ( History of statistics) (esp. logarithms) -- IRL, it was born circa 1749. As for myself, I prefer to stay on solid ground of Georgius Agricola and René Descartes.  As striking example, construction of steam engines was mostly "art" before developing thermodynamics, and became science after this. And IronAngel's answer is very reliable, except of this: IronAngel wrote: Mathematics was fairly advanced even in Ancient times, and has a lot of practical application (in construction for example) regardless of magic. AFAIK, practical applications were limited to a trial-and-error experience. Blueprints of ships of ~1700 is _horrible_ -- so there is no wonder, how extremely valuable was skilled builders (and do not mix them with enginers! they came from very different mindsets). Buildings and (underground) mines are also not exceptions. I am unable to be used to them and still shiver, when looking through old drawings and blueprints. And, older sources are overbloated with "essoteric" stuff.
_________________
Evolution by any means!
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bobofwestoregonusa
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Posted: Sat, Jun 14 2014, 7:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Location: Eastern Washington
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Another thing to consider in these questions on whether advanced maths are possible or not is the fact that there was an entire netherese age of arcane advancement and intellectual exploration. I fully expect that some more advanced sciences were pioneered in that age and beyond that wouldn't quite apply to our sort of society, but might to Forgotten Realms.
Mathematics would be one example of that. Where we have technology, the Netherese had magic ass floating rocks with mythallars built onto their cornerstones to power their crazy cities. At some point it has to be another sort of science I think, or wizards just kind of "want" things to happen instead of actively participating in it.
_________________ Gerald EdmundDiscord: Metal Viking Guy #5433 DC taxation is theft!
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Sat, Jun 14 2014, 16:22 PM |
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Tester
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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bobofwestoregonusa wrote: Mathematics would be one example of that. Where we have technology, the Netherese had magic ass floating rocks with mythallars built onto their cornerstones to power their crazy cities. At some point it has to be another sort of science I think, or wizards just kind of "want" things to happen instead of actively participating in it. Oh of course, and that is why I continuously try to refer to magic as a technology in Forgotten Realms. The term "magic" is connotative to most of something that just happens. Something that cannot be explained by natural laws of the world. But that is quite the opposite to what magic is in the FR universe. It can be explained, it is quite often experimented with, and it has been utilized as a tool for both peace and war. A natural force harnessed to some controlled, repeatable, and observable end is a technology by default. Same for the natural forces of gravity, combustion, and electricity in our own world. To go back to the topic of statistics, I feel like it wouldn't take much for a Fatespinner to publish a book on statistical analysis that we might recognize. Your average casino owner or gambler in FR might have a basic understanding simply because of their job. But for a superhumanly intelligent wizard whose main focus is on beating the odds on a world-breaking level, who is to say what they cant come up with in their studies? But equally, his findings might not be widely published outside of his peers, as a majority of people would neither understand them nor have any use for them. _________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Nivo
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Posted: Sun, Jun 15 2014, 3:12 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Jan 2009
Location: East of Elsewhere, West of Sometime
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Dark Immolation wrote: To go back to the topic of statistics, I feel like it wouldn't take much for a Fatespinner to publish a book on statistical analysis that we might recognize. Your average casino owner or gambler in FR might have a basic understanding simply because of their job. But for a superhumanly intelligent wizard whose main focus is on beating the odds on a world-breaking level, who is to say what they cant come up with in their studies? But equally, his findings might not be widely published outside of his peers, as a majority of people would neither understand them nor have any use for them. Hmmm, hmmm.
_________________
Playing:
Marcus Valis
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Luckbringer
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Posted: Sun, Jun 15 2014, 12:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Location: The frozen north
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I would imagine dwarves would have a firm understanding of mathematics for engineering and building applications. They are known for their legendary feats engineering like the Pumps of Pyraddin or the Chasmleap Bridge which were built using non-magical means since the stout folk were never enamored with magics. I would only assume a keen knowledge of mathematics would be used to build these wonders.
_________________ aaegus battlehammer™ cloak rockhewer murtaugh gunn
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Q't'ulu
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Posted: Mon, Jun 16 2014, 11:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 20 Jun 2012
Location: Russia, St.Petersburg
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Sorry for all, but I became floody. And I like to thank everybody for raising questions, which helps me to clarify my position and improve my coherent understanding of methods and goals of science. Luckbringer wrote: I would imagine dwarves would have a firm understanding of mathematics for engineering and building applications. They are known for their legendary feats engineering like the Pumps of Pyraddin or the Chasmleap Bridge which were built using non-magical means since the stout folk were never enamored with magics. I would only assume a keen knowledge of mathematics would be used to build these wonders. Those examples are most easy to dissmiss. First, "a keen knowledge of mathematics" is a very relative thing. Keen in comparision whith whom? Second, "State-of-Art" machinery well known form antiquity -- machines of Archimedes of Syracuse, Hero of Alexandria or Leonardo da Vinci. However, this is remained as artifacts -- largely unused and, most important, not developed further. And, of course, notorious Antikythera mechanism -- as striking example state-of-art and out-of-time item. Third, dwarves may be masters of industrial arts, but not scientists and engineers. And last, FR per se is an ad-hoc and incoherent collection, loosely supervised by Salvatore. So, all my speculations about FR technology and science are ultimately invalidated by nature of setting composition. bobofwestoregonusa wrote: Mathematics would be one example of that. Where we have technology, the Netherese had magic ass floating rocks with mythallars built onto their cornerstones to power their crazy cities. At some point it has to be another sort of science I think, or wizards just kind of "want" things to happen instead of actively participating in it.
Here can not be any "another sort of science", because "Science" not a funny all-ebracing word (like an art or so on), but meticulous and rigirous application of scientific method. Everything other is anything else, but science. By definition. (First) And returning to Netheril, I am not sure, if I have right to put Netheril developed magic under banner of science. ("How can I became lich? Let's summon demon and ask him! How can we build a mithal? Let's ask Mystryl!" and so on. Why not? This is even depicted in original NWN1 compaign.) Second, high intelligence do not transform hi-int being into scientist. Fleshware before industrial revolution (about 1780-1840) was much same as today, but revolution happens only in 1810+-30. AFAIR, every out-of-time invention was either forgotten or used (mostly) without improvement (scarce legacy of antique inventors, as example). Dark Immolation wrote: Oh of course, and that is why I continuously try to refer to magic as a technology in Forgotten Realms. The term "magic" is connotative to most of something that just happens. Something that cannot be explained by natural laws of the world. But that is quite the opposite to what magic is in the FR universe. It can be explained, it is quite often experimented with, and it has been utilized as a tool for both peace and war. A natural force harnessed to some controlled, repeatable, and observable end is a technology by default. Same for the natural forces of gravity, combustion, and electricity in our own world.
May be, xor may not be. Question is "are they use scientific method?" and how wide it is used. One genius do not change the world (Karsus excl.). And, technology is independend from science. (this is obvious thing) So, by definition, FR have magic-based technology. It is silly to argue with this. Dark Immolation wrote: To go back to the topic of statistics, I feel like it wouldn't take much for a Fatespinner to publish a book on statistical analysis that we might recognize.
IMHO, Fatespinneris are not an example, because they (AFAIU) based insight-like information gathering ("Able to cast 4th-level arcane spells, including at least one divination spell of 1st level or higher"), without obligation of an understanding of "how things work".
_________________
Evolution by any means!
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Nivo
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Posted: Mon, Jun 16 2014, 13:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Jan 2009
Location: East of Elsewhere, West of Sometime
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As someone who has a Fatespinner PC, I have always interpreted the 'gambling' skill requirement as a representation of understanding how to count cards and run other probability-based equations through one's head. With an intelligence based caster, it may very well represent a magical paradigm that understands "how things work." While I won't delve into my character's magical paradigm here, suffice it to say much of it is rooted in a very advanced understanding of mathematics.
_________________
Playing:
Marcus Valis
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Yossarin
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Posted: Mon, Jun 16 2014, 13:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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People think Ulrik made ubermillions hunting epic bosses. In truth, the bastard was just playing blackjack the whole time.
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Elorathall
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Posted: Mon, Jun 16 2014, 13:57 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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Would it be fair to say that basic counting does exist, but true statistical analysis is much akin to the technological artifacts mentioned in this thread - something entirely dependent on the artificer, and something that usually dissapears or falls out of use when the artificer dies or leaves.
That being said though, there are a number of dedicated organizations in the realms that likely have a serious interest in developing advanced mathematics and probability analysis. I can certainly imagine the churches of Waukeen, Azuth and Savras having an interest in it, for example. Though I'm curious as to how they would go about it, keeping it within their religious paradigm.
_________________
Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"
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Q't'ulu
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Posted: Tue, Jun 17 2014, 9:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 20 Jun 2012
Location: Russia, St.Petersburg
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Nivo wrote: As someone who has a Fatespinner PC, I have always interpreted the 'gambling' skill requirement as a representation of understanding how to count cards and run other probability-based equations through one's head. With an intelligence based caster, it may very well represent a magical paradigm that understands "how things work." While I won't delve into my character's magical paradigm here, suffice it to say much of it is rooted in a very advanced understanding of mathematics. Not to downplay your exaple, but as (seemingly good) another example -- neural network (ANN). ANN after proper learning is damn good at solving problems, but it solves them in, let's say, intuitive way. Personally, I find idea of ANN is alluring approximation of many unformalized mental processes (such as 'insight', 'intuition', 'sense', 'skill' and so on), as well as most cases of "learning" of humans. So, if we train ANN to play blackjack, it will play it very good. (but things will go bad if we have to ask (ANN) -- "how are you get this?"). p.s. AFAIU, mathematical theory of probabilistic games is relatively simple. p.p.s. Elorathall, +1
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Evolution by any means!
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Elorathall
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Posted: Tue, Jun 17 2014, 14:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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Overall, from what I've gathered IG and from the lore a lot of the magic in Forgotten Realms seems to be like that. People know how to use it, but don't understand exactly how it works. Even when creating spells, it seems similar to how someone with only a passing understanding of electronics (or modular programming) would work; if I put this here and give it this input, I'll get this output. Exactly how it works is black-box-y.
Actually, I'd love to hear Nivo's interpretation of how Fatespinners actually operate.
_________________
Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"
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