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You'll have to be gentle with me here since I'm new to the FR setting, so this question mostly revolves around what Amia assumes NPCs and PCs already know... there's a lot of stuff my PC should/would know about the world that's common sense, but as a player, I'm new so I don't know it. You know?

Anyways, playing a Salandran and healing/tending to patients in the various wings, I imagine she (in her down time while ~I~ am logged off) gets a lot of questions about death and the afterlife.

It's been confusing for me reading the wiki pages, and I know my PC doesn't have memory of times around death or the fugue plane. But does she still know it exists?

Do most PCs/NPCs in Faerun GET what happens when they die? What's the extent of their afterlife knowledge? Do they know so far as "Kelemvor will judge you as faithless, false or faithful" and that's it? Do they know they'll go to their specific deity's plane? Do they know they'll go to "the fugue plane"? Do only Kelemvorites have this intimate knowledge?

Do most people know scary shit like

Quote:

All judged faithless receive the same punishment; they form a living wall around the city. Here they are held by a supernatural greenish mould. The mould hinders their escape while it also slowly dissolves both soul and consciousness.

??

Basically I'm reading all this stuff as a player, but I don't know how to gauge how much my CHARACTER would know, or how much her patients would know. Should I be saying "Ms Johnson y'all better hurry up and join a faith squad, that green mould wall tho."

And yes yes, I would love to find this all out by talking to a Kelemvorite, and I do intend to- I just also don't want to make a mistake or blunder in the future asserting knowledge IC that I actually have no way of knowing. You know?!?

Most of what you are looking for is known commonly enough for it not to be hard to know/find out, the question is more would the [N]PC in question need to know it? A commoner, for example, would likely only know vague stuff about death; that there is an afterlife and such and if you follow your beliefs you will go to someplace (idk if they would know exactly where, unless they were very spiritual with a good cleric/priest in the community). A cleric would definitely know the ins and outs of death, at least pertaining to their faith and related matters (ie deities their patron favors or is an enemy of).

I think it's decently common knowledge that Kelemvor judges you, though again it depends on the character. Similarly most may not understand or know of The Wall. I think it's more that people know they need to believe in something, just not why (ie FR is very deity-based so people know they need to follow their deities but they may not understand what happens to the Faithless).

So yeah it mostly is based on the character in question, I think! Which is nice, if gives people some leeway

Given your character, and especially if they have Lore, I think it's safe to say they would know deeper details; and it's probably really easy for them to find out. So you could even garner RP fun with them finding out more about death!

Hi there, thank you for delving in to one of my favourite fields in the setting!

A quick search in the lore forum gives you some results on the Fugue and other bits about death in the realm.

Kelemvor is not the first god to hold domain over the Fugue so yes, the Wall of the Faithless is a pretty well documented fact to those who know of the divine. With the recent changes to the Fugue by Kelemvor turning it back into something similar to what Jergal once had (still less gruesome than what Myrkul had) people do know that when you die, Kelemvor will be there to judge the false and faithless.

There are of course more info to be had on the subject but that is perhaps something you can find out in game by talking to those who would know?

Historicly I think it was Myrkul who created the wall of the faithless. That being said, being faithless is far less of a punishment than what the False recieve so not only should you pick a faith you should adhere to it :p

You're in luck! Drusus Vel is a priest of Kelemvor who is currently staying at the Salandran grounds. Look me up if you want to delve into matters of death and the fugue.

There are other Kelemvorites running around too.

Perfect timing for this thread. I was just today discussing the penalty of being faithless with another player. I can with all honestly say that 9/10 faithless characters who come to me do not know that there is a penalty for being faithless. A horrible, horrible penalty. They strive to RP their toons as free people unbound by some divine dogmas, and that is something that comes from a modern age I believe. Today, in modern world to be an atheist is in some circles considered advanced and above the superstitious people who worship the empty halls of the never-to-be-seen gods. However, the gods in the FR are very, very real and denouncing them has a consequence.

I was just about to poke the bear (silkelock) with this discussion, though it might be more appropriate for GD. Since gods are handled by the DM, perhaps a general rule that faithless characters must be requested and approved (with all the consequences) could be brought into Amia? After all, death and dying, as well as the gods are a HUGE part of the canon lore.

Last I read, DMs officially ruled that the standard lore for Faithless doesn't apply (will go find it later if you don't believe me, prolly just a matter of searching "Faithless" on the forum by people who don't have as strict a bedtime as me). Before we discuss a rule making them request-only however, DMs would have to officially revisit this decision. And like, I dunno, give us reasons as to why they changed their mind I guess? I dunno. It would be a mistake of course - to quote a server rule:

Quote:

You cannot expect that players own any DnD materials. The NWN box doesn't list it below "requirements' and neither do the signs in the Entry. If you want to use rules/spells/skills that are not in the sources mentioned in the post above you MUST make sure the involved player agrees with using those rules. You also must make sure every participant is aware of the rules appropriate to the situation, and has read the skill/spell descriptions, and is aware of possible counter-spells and/or counter-skills, so that they can react correctly to what your character is attempting to do.

This suggests that we can't expect players to know about the lore restrictions on Faithless, and forcing them to accept this post-PC creation would be in contravention of the rule (or basically the same as asking for P&P permission I imagine - to which they can say no, if they prefer to keep their concept). Accepting the P&P lore as absolute would create an inconsistency wherein some faithless can be raised and some can't. You can certainly roll with this and say that yeah, it's unreliable (there are faithless PCs whose players agreed to abide, and some who did not... And some who may not actually be faithless), but regardless it is still not a rule.

The insinuation that players of Faithless PCs as being wrongfully "modern-minded" and "putting themselves above superstitious people" is frankly a somewhat condescending presumption. Furthermore, atheism in the real world and atheism in the game cannot be equated, especially since the gods walked Faerun less than a lifetime ago. Sure, doomsaying is a perfectly valid means of drawing followers to a religion, I don't dispute that especially for PCs who otherwise would have no religious RP, but I think the option should remain for those who want to RP it differently.

Actually I'd never read anything to that end Serbiris... I imagine there is some wiggle room for people fresh to the server who don't understand we're playing in FR but still.... that being a key Element of Forgotten Realms I'm pretty sure at least these days it is in place.

LetumLux wrote:

It was decided that it was sort of unreasonable to force Faithless characters to be permanently dead, as if this was Diablo on Hardcore, because it's very easy to die, and many people RP it as being knocked out, anyway. So accepting raises as Faithless is fine.

viewtopic.php?p=1315669#p1315669

Two new rules:

1. I'm never wrong.

2. If I'm wrong, refer to rule 1.

srsly guys take my word for it, does not help my internet argument addiction

(Note: still an Australian, still perma-sarcastic)

Edit: Found prior rulings, exact same sort of thread, the usual suspects are in their usual roles. History repeats! viewtopic.php?p=1118470#p1118470

Yossarin wrote:

Not really, no. There might be once we force people to read everything about FR so that they can make an informed decison about a deity to follow to avoid undeserved permadeath.

On a related question, is Kelemvor only the god of death for the Faerunian pantheon and only responisble for judging dead humans from Faerun?

For example: I know that dwarves have Dumathoin as their god of the dead, but what happens to faithless or false dwarves (or anyother demi-human race for that matter)? Are they judged by the gods of that race or are they sent to Kelemvor?

Luckbringer wrote:

On a related question, is Kelemvor only the god of death for the Faerunian pantheon and only responisble for judging dead humans from Faerun?

For example: I know that dwarves have Dumathoin as their god of the dead, but what happens to faithless or false dwarves (or anyother demi-human race for that matter)? Are they judged by the gods of that race or are they sent to Kelemvor?

AFAIK they all end up on the fugue. I imagine that the descriptions about petitioners are mostly human as Kelemvor and Jergals faithful remain on the fugue to serve.
While other gods of the dead exist Kelemvor has the dominate mandate as I understand.
followers of dumathoin would after judgement likely be picked up to be transported to whichever plane he resides in.

I always figured it was cultural belief that each racial god of death was to believed to be the god of death by those races, as opposed to a singular figure across all pantheons.

Triggered.

Characters know everything there is to know about death and the afterlife because FR is a nonsensical hodge-podge of contradictory lore and rules, full of demons, celestials and elementals alike that love to regale summoners with detailed descriptions of exactly how the multiverse works. Death is as trivial as taking the bus, without mystery or meaning. Atheism is both nonsensical (as the gods are proven and very real) and the only logical outcome (as nobody believes, they -know-). The setting's concepts of life, death, spirituality, religion and the divine have been written by a 10 year old (if even that) and turned into nothing more than a collective of super-charged humanoid LARPing Game of Thrones with the whole multiverse for teh lulz of it. It's all incredibly stupid.

That said, Aurelius considers atheism the greatest evil imaginable - worse than summoning any fiend. In his view, faith isn't simply an abstract concept but a force that defines and shapes existence itself - via the gods. Those that profess not to believe in the gods (or only give lip service), as such, de facto believe in nothing at all - and that such nihilism ultimately unravels existence itself.

So the Wall does not exist at all in our setting?

The Wall exists in our setting. What's waived are the complications pertaining to a faithless individual dying - though, to be fair, I still maintain that the wording is very vague, in terms of how long it would take a soul to be judged by Kelemvor, so it's very plausible that unless you wait a year to cast Raise Dead on a faithless individual who's died, it's not a huge stretch of FR lore as for them to be able to return.

Also, in regards to PCs knowing about the existence of the Wall: that seems like the kind of information clerics and priests of all faiths would want to make known. The gods need worshipers and there's few better deterrents for people going faithless than knowledge of the fate that awaits them after death.

My main characters certainly know about it! And it definitely terrifies both of them, in its own way. Faith is such a wonderful thing in the world of Faerun... And so is death!

What describes faithless, however?

If a commoner is able to get away with lip service as opposed to devout worship, does that mean saving your soul from The Wall is as trivial as thanking a god, such as Chauntea, for a bountiful harvest, but not actually worshipping her?

I would not call thanking Chauntea for a bountiful harvest trivial. As long as they do not say that Chauntea is not responsible at all for their bountiful harvest, they are okay. If you defy the gods in spite of them being a real, measurable, present force, then you get stuck in the wall.

Don't forget how readily people like to invoke the names of deities on Amia (Orcus and Shar come to mind). I think saying 'Thanks, Chauntea!" is fairly trivial comparatively.

Elorathall wrote:

Triggered.

Characters know everything there is to know about death and the afterlife because FR is a nonsensical hodge-podge of contradictory lore and rules, full of demons, celestials and elementals alike that love to regale summoners with detailed descriptions of exactly how the multiverse works. Death is as trivial as taking the bus, without mystery or meaning. Atheism is both nonsensical (as the gods are proven and very real) and the only logical outcome (as nobody believes, they -know-). The setting's concepts of life, death, spirituality, religion and the divine have been written by a 10 year old (if even that) and turned into nothing more than a collective of super-charged humanoid LARPing Game of Thrones with the whole multiverse for teh lulz of it. It's all incredibly stupid.

That said, Aurelius considers atheism the greatest evil imaginable - worse than summoning any fiend. In his view, faith isn't simply an abstract concept but a force that defines and shapes existence itself - via the gods. Those that profess not to believe in the gods (or only give lip service), as such, de facto believe in nothing at all - and that such nihilism ultimately unravels existence itself.

Hahaha wow. Well said. It's true for as seriously as we all take everything in this game.

Quote:

Don't forget how readily people like to invoke the names of deities on Amia (Orcus and Shar come to mind). I think saying 'Thanks, Chauntea!" is fairly trivial comparatively.

Can't wait to start Amia's version of "Thanks Obama" or is there already one? I failed on my crafting roll, THANKS, SHAR!!

Love this discussion and now I know a lot more! Thanks keep it up

Richard_Edmund wrote:

Don't forget how readily people like to invoke the names of deities on Amia (Orcus and Shar come to mind). I think saying 'Thanks, Chauntea!" is fairly trivial comparatively.

Different deities work differently. Chauntea is the most powerful deity in existence because she has the most followers. 90% of them are villagers. That means that their "Thank you Chauntea" actually works.

Dead wrote:

Richard_Edmund wrote:

Don't forget how readily people like to invoke the names of deities on Amia (Orcus and Shar come to mind). I think saying 'Thanks, Chauntea!" is fairly trivial comparatively.

Different deities work differently. Chauntea is the most powerful deity in existence because she has the most followers. 90% of them are villagers. That means that their "Thank you Chauntea" actually works.

What he said.
Also I think there is a "curse word" that goes something in the likes of "By Velsharoon's staff". I have read it somewhere but not sure if it was official books.

Dead wrote:

Richard_Edmund wrote:

Don't forget how readily people like to invoke the names of deities on Amia (Orcus and Shar come to mind). I think saying 'Thanks, Chauntea!" is fairly trivial comparatively.

Different deities work differently. Chauntea is the most powerful deity in existence because she has the most followers. 90% of them are villagers. That means that their "Thank you Chauntea" actually works.

Is its related to these to comments, lets take a second to bring in "False" worshipers "A soul who does worship a deity but did not sufficiently uphold their patron's dogma is instead judged False." Many people in FR lore wise are fairly theistic, I mean the Time of Troubles timeline wise was within the last 30 years so its pretty hard to be faithless in the Realms anymore other than by choice.

And knowing these gods exist many offer prayers to deities even other than their own Patron if it would apply, however it is the patron deity that still matters for the purposes of afterlife. For example those farmers who depend on the harvest to live? They likely genuinely hold true to Chauntea's dogma, however if one of that village always spoke the words but never had any conviction in it or upheld her dogma then they would likely be judged false all the same (assuming they worshiped no other gods who might wish to claim their soul).

Generally people pray to more than one god. We, the moving force behind out characters are often favoring just one deity, because the concept of monotheism is closer to us.

However in reality of the setting.. Unless one is specifically devoted to Valkur, a passenger will praise Umberlee every time he get into a ship. Chances are great that if you thank Chauntea for the bountiful harvest you will also thank Lathander for his Sun shone favorably upon the crops. When one of your relatives die, you will seek the consult of a Doomguide (Kelemvorite). When you are getting married you might ask a priest of Sune to bless your marriage. Or if you hire an assassin to do your bidding, you might pray to Cyric or Hoar that the blade of the murderer finds its way to the heart of your enemy, and that Hoar allows you to have your revenge.

Silkelock wrote:

Dead wrote:

Richard_Edmund wrote:

Don't forget how readily people like to invoke the names of deities on Amia (Orcus and Shar come to mind). I think saying 'Thanks, Chauntea!" is fairly trivial comparatively.

Different deities work differently. Chauntea is the most powerful deity in existence because she has the most followers. 90% of them are villagers. That means that their "Thank you Chauntea" actually works.

What he said.
Also I think there is a "curse word" that goes something in the likes of "By Velsharoon's staff". I have read it somewhere but not sure if it was official books.

By the Bitch Queen's salty teat!

I lol'd but I think that enlisting the FR swear-words, and coming up with the new ones would be actually cool.

Dead wrote:

I lol'd but I think that enlisting the FR swear-words, and coming up with the new ones would be actually cool.

Some starter ideas can be found in this topic.

How much do characters know about death?

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