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yimmi
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 29 2015, 16:48 PM 

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Hey there! I'm looking to start a new character, a white necromancer!
I understand the basics about it and I've reading a bit and all that but I have some questions that may be more related with the game itself...
Like which familiar should have? I've been thinking about her/him summoning a skeleton but not as an undead raised but maybe as something diferent (I was told it could be like she/he "crafted" the pieces to look like bones and then magically animate them, not being a corpse found at the graveyard)
The other thing is about the deity, should he/she follow a deity that hates undeads (if i'm not mistaken, Lathander) or another related to the magic use... or thats totally RP based and shouldn't influence on the choice? (she/he could whorship another god not related to neither of them)
Any other tips are very welcomed, thanks for your time!

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Bertnard
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 29 2015, 16:56 PM 

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Well, I'm playing white necromancer, but many people were like "Wow that's bullshit, there's nothing like white necromancy etc" So I guess you should be ready for that.
In my opinion deity doesn't really matter (if you are playing wizard/sorc), just nothing really evil. I'm not really fan of having skeleton as companion tho. Even if it would be a construct.


 
      
MethodicalMadness
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 29 2015, 16:59 PM 



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From what I understand, the type of summon you are looking for is called a Deathless. They aren't animated through means of Necromancy, but instead given sanction as unlife by such gods as Kelemvor or Jergal who give deathless summons to clerics who take Death or Repose domains. Though you could still make a request for your Skeleton familiar to be classified as a Deathless summon, it will take considerable role play and likely a reskin (or vfx and a custom description) for it.

White, grey and black Necromancy are just IC perspectives of the different moral-implications, as far as I am aware. Naturally they refer to Good, neutral and evil, respectively.

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Last edited by MethodicalMadness on Sun, Nov 29 2015, 17:01 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 29 2015, 17:00 PM 

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And- to add on to what was said above my post. It takes a good amount of Roleplay to reskin into a Deathless. I reskined my shifter's form into one! You just have to show devotion and a Kelemvorite that can spawn one.

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yimmi
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 29 2015, 17:07 PM 

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Thanks for your time and quick answers haha! I'll consider that and try to get the deathless too!

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Silkelock
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 29 2015, 19:10 PM 

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Personally I detest the term white necromancy, it is just necromancy to me. Labels and whatnot.

Take a look at gods with the Death domain, they would be the obvious choice for a cleric etc. For an arcane caster, I suppose anything flies.
Animated skeletons are undead, so having that follow you around can be problematic :p

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LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 29 2015, 19:29 PM 

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Yeah. To me, taking a Skeleton famillar without it already being reskined is just contradicting the concept. I'd suggest the Panther sense it helps level, and or the Psuedodude.

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Dead
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 07 2015, 22:26 PM 

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You can worship Velsharoon and have a white necromancer, imho. He's the most versatile deity out there.

Edit: I somehow have the feeling that "white" necromancy is a term from the times when Healing spells were Necromancy, and not Conjuration.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 08 2015, 1:28 AM 

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To my knowledge, the idea of White Necromancy on Amia came from the old Eternal Order's dogma. They classified Necromancy by White, Grey, and Black. White was stuff like healing and Greater Restoration, Grey was things that weakened you or killed you, but didn't outright violate any souls, and Black was raising undead(or had the risk of creating them) and trapping or stealing life energies. Grey got you "reeducated", Black usually got you burned at the stake. White was fine with them.

Honestly, it would have been cooler if Healing spells remained Necromancy like in past editions. The change to Conjuration always felt like a cop-out to avoid IC stigma, much like having Deathless be something other than Undead is. I believe the given explanation now is that they're Conjuration because they "summon positive energy" into the target. Someone calling themselves a Necromancer now usually translates to "bad ebil person." However, when I think of necromancers as a concept, it's much more interesting to have them viewed like hackers; some are white hat, some are black, but they both have knowledge of some pretty dubious stuff.

The concept of White Necromancy is awesome. Anything that blurs needlessly neat lines is okay in my book. And the "good guy who studies bad things" is always an interesting archetype. I encourage OP to pop over to the Character Concept forum once they feel they have something they want to build upon.

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Dunecat
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 08 2015, 6:46 AM 

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Do not submit to religious propaganda; be a necromancer you always wanted to be. Your familliar can be "Skeleton". Your EMD summon - default "Mummy Guardian". Pick up one or two undead-summoning spells just to be sure you can get the party started. Follow neutral deity. Possess "Good" alignment.

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Bertnard
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 08 2015, 11:21 AM 

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Dark Immolation wrote:
Honestly, it would have been cooler if Healing spells remained Necromancy like in past editions.


Exactly, for me, it makes no sense now.

Technically, now that healing spells are not necromancy, you can't really talk about white necromancy anymore.
But the concept is still great imho.


 
      
Dead
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 08 2015, 14:41 PM 

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We discussed this before. It would be cool if all the spells were returned to their respective school. The most obvious example is Bestow Curse being in Transmutation instead of Necromancy.

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 08 2015, 14:53 PM 

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Silkelock wrote:
Take a look at gods with the Death domain, they would be the obvious choice for a cleric etc. For an arcane caster, I suppose anything flies.


To add to this point, those summons are great for your concept since they are tomb guardian like things, but I believe they are outsiders so I don't know that they are expressly suitable to your needs here. I hope it helps though!

EDIT: In fact after looking Repose does in fact summon an outsider using the Death Doman power, but with some altered scripting! Clicky

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yimmi
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 08 2015, 16:58 PM 

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Haha thanks for all the tips!
I've been pretty busy with my exams (I hope to finish this friday) and I'll start this character that really got my attention.
I know that before white necromancer was called that because the healing spells where still in the Necromancy school. But now the focus that I want to give this character is like this: (I will refer to him/her, my future character, as "X")
Yes, X studies necromancy, but, as someone up said, because she wants to know how to fight it. This point of view is what motivates me the most, because as X could go deeper in the study of the necromancy who knows where that could lead her. The motivation of this character is that X wants to master the necromancy arts because she wants to know how to beat the necromancers ( I will work later on the background for this)
I know that necromancy its necromancy, even if its a good or a bad person who casts it, yes. But the approach can be different (and I want it to be different), I mean X won't be a necromancer that goes resurrecting undead corpses to do his will and govern the island, but it's going to fight those who do... and what better way to do it than studying their "art".
Dark Immolation wrote:
However, when I think of necromancers as a concept, it's much more interesting to have them viewed like hackers; some are white hat, some are black, but they both have knowledge of some pretty dubious stuff.

The concept of White Necromancy is awesome. Anything that blurs needlessly neat lines is okay in my book. And the "good guy who studies bad things" is always an interesting archetype.


This! haha I think this describes pretty well what I intend to do. It opens a variety of possible outcomes and development for my character as X learns more and more stuff.

About the deities I still haven't decided haha. It's now gonna be more of a personal choice.
The companion that is going to have its probably a skeleton that I'll ask for a reskin to helmet horror custom or something like that. (thanks Tyris!) That could server her to fight the undead until I can get the RP for something more appropriate, so I'll be saving my DCs for that :P!

And Dunecat... I laughed so hard with the picture hahaha!
I'm still open for more comments and suggestions!!

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Dead
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 10 2015, 18:39 PM 

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yimmi wrote:
The motivation of this character is that X wants to master the necromancy arts because she wants to know how to beat the necromancers

I may be biased, but in my honest opinion one cannot master necromancy without being a necromancer. A real necromancer, with everything that comes in the package, black or white. However a fun way (and this is completely subjective) would be to start off a white necromancer and have a goal to destroy the undead only to lean closer and closer to that grey necromancy which eventually leads to the black one.

"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster.
And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."


If you want to specialize in undead destruction you would be far more effective as a Paladin, a dedicated Ranger or a cleric leaning towards the Sacred Purifier.

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yimmi
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 11 2015, 2:13 AM 

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Dead wrote:
yimmi wrote:
If you want to specialize in undead destruction you would be far more effective as a Paladin, a dedicated Ranger or a cleric leaning towards the Sacred Purifier.


Yes, I also thought of that. But I would like to see where this can lead "X"!
Dead wrote:
However a fun way (and this is completely subjective) would be to start off a white necromancer and have a goal to destroy the undead only to lean closer and closer to that grey necromancy which eventually leads to the black one.


Something like this, I mean I made this totally for the RP choices, and wide variety of possible paths that "X" could follow! I cannot say what path X may follow, as it will be a result of the experience she/he gets by RP with other people and... stuff
And because I like more to think that as necromancy (as a magic school) can be learned through reading and the like, but being a paladin or a cleric it's something more of a...mhmm how can i put it (IMHO) like a divine call? (it sounded awesome in my head in spanish hahaha)

Once again thanks for all your advices people!


**EDIT: I don't know how i screwed up with the "quotes" hahaha :P

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Dead
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 11 2015, 14:44 PM 

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Well it's not just in your head. Paladins and Clerics can't learn their spells from reading (though studying religious texts certainly helps). The same goes for druids and rangers. They are all Divine spellcasters.
White Necromancy is extremely limited in Neverwinter nights. In the matter of a fact there is only one spell that may be considered white necromancy - Greater Restoration. The rest of it is all about undead creation and harmful manipulation of negative energy IE gray and black necromancy. Of course, there might be other PnP spells that could qualify as White necromancy, but we are talking about isolated cases at best.

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LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 11 2015, 14:54 PM 

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Dead wrote:
Well it's not just in your head. Paladins and Clerics can't learn their spells from reading (though studying religious texts certainly helps). The same goes for druids and rangers. They are all Divine spellcasters.
White Necromancy is extremely limited in Neverwinter nights. In the matter of a fact there is only one spell that may be considered white necromancy - Greater Restoration. The rest of it is all about undead creation and harmful manipulation of negative energy IE gray and black necromancy. Of course, there might be other PnP spells that could qualify as White necromancy, but we are talking about isolated cases at best.


And Death Ward. :D

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Dead
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 11 2015, 16:17 PM 

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LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
Dead wrote:
Well it's not just in your head. Paladins and Clerics can't learn their spells from reading (though studying religious texts certainly helps). The same goes for druids and rangers. They are all Divine spellcasters.
White Necromancy is extremely limited in Neverwinter nights. In the matter of a fact there is only one spell that may be considered white necromancy - Greater Restoration. The rest of it is all about undead creation and harmful manipulation of negative energy IE gray and black necromancy. Of course, there might be other PnP spells that could qualify as White necromancy, but we are talking about isolated cases at best.


And Death Ward. :D


Death Ward is from a Divine spellbook, but yeah. That would be an example of White necromancy.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 11 2015, 21:20 PM 

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LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
Dead wrote:
White Necromancy is extremely limited in Neverwinter nights. In the matter of a fact there is only one spell that may be considered white necromancy - Greater Restoration. The rest of it is all about undead creation and harmful manipulation of negative energy IE gray and black necromancy.

And Death Ward. :D

And Undeath to Death. :) But yeah, there's just the three, I think. Not really enough to base a whole spellcasting focus around.

I want to mention also...

Dead wrote:
Paladins and Clerics can't learn their spells from reading (though studying religious texts certainly helps).

This seems really broad and reductive. Who says clerics can't learn spells through reading? I imagine lots of churches with deep academic traditions (Mystra, Oghma, Azuth, most especially Deneir) record their spells textually. In re: the OP's question...

yimmi wrote:
The other thing is about the deity, should he/she follow a deity that hates undeads (if i'm not mistaken, Lathander) or another related to the magic use... or thats totally RP based and shouldn't influence on the choice? (she/he could whorship another god not related to neither of them)

... I'd love to see a divine-caster undead-hater come from an unexpected tradition, not just another Kelemvorite or Lathandran or Triadic. One of the more bookish deities would be pretty awesome, I think. Have the choice to focus on anti-undeath come from some personal narrative reason, rather than a church's dogma.

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Dead
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 11 2015, 23:00 PM 

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Liz wrote:
Who says clerics can't learn spells through reading? I imagine lots of churches with deep academic traditions (Mystra, Oghma, Azuth, most especially Deneir) record their spells textually.

-->
Dead wrote:
(though studying religious texts certainly helps).

They can't learn a spell from a scroll is what I meant. Not like a wizard does. I thought that was clear enough. :)

Liz wrote:
... I'd love to see a divine-caster undead-hater come from an unexpected tradition, not just another Kelemvorite or Lathandran or Triadic. One of the more bookish deities would be pretty awesome, I think. Have the choice to focus on anti-undeath come from some personal narrative reason, rather than a church's dogma.

Though I agree with this, I'd personally love to see more of undead-lovers on the server. Every character and their mother hate the undead. It's nothing new. It's easy to hate the undead. The ratio of undead lovers and undead haters is 1:25.

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LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Sat, Dec 12 2015, 1:49 AM 

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Dead wrote:
Liz wrote:
Who says clerics can't learn spells through reading? I imagine lots of churches with deep academic traditions (Mystra, Oghma, Azuth, most especially Deneir) record their spells textually.

-->
Dead wrote:
(though studying religious texts certainly helps).

They can't learn a spell from a scroll is what I meant. Not like a wizard does. I thought that was clear enough. :)

Liz wrote:
... I'd love to see a divine-caster undead-hater come from an unexpected tradition, not just another Kelemvorite or Lathandran or Triadic. One of the more bookish deities would be pretty awesome, I think. Have the choice to focus on anti-undeath come from some personal narrative reason, rather than a church's dogma.

Though I agree with this, I'd personally love to see more of undead-lovers on the server. Every character and their mother hate the undead. It's nothing new. It's easy to hate the undead. The ratio of undead lovers and undead haters is 1:25.


Make that, 2:25. ;)

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yimmi
 
PostPosted: Sat, Dec 12 2015, 15:47 PM 

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LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
Dead wrote:
Liz wrote:
Who says clerics can't learn spells through reading? I imagine lots of churches with deep academic traditions (Mystra, Oghma, Azuth, most especially Deneir) record their spells textually.

-->
Dead wrote:
(though studying religious texts certainly helps).

They can't learn a spell from a scroll is what I meant. Not like a wizard does. I thought that was clear enough. :)

Liz wrote:
... I'd love to see a divine-caster undead-hater come from an unexpected tradition, not just another Kelemvorite or Lathandran or Triadic. One of the more bookish deities would be pretty awesome, I think. Have the choice to focus on anti-undeath come from some personal narrative reason, rather than a church's dogma.

Though I agree with this, I'd personally love to see more of undead-lovers on the server. Every character and their mother hate the undead. It's nothing new. It's easy to hate the undead. The ratio of undead lovers and undead haters is 1:25.


Make that, 2:25. ;)

Haha agreed!

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Guardian
 
PostPosted: Sat, Dec 12 2015, 21:23 PM 

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I don't hate undead. I hate Dead. :mrgreen:

Also, if it is possible at all to make at least healing spells back a Necromancy school, that would be super-great.

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ZoltanTheRed
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 14 2015, 20:21 PM 

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Silkelock wrote:
Personally I detest the term white necromancy, it is just necromancy to me. Labels and whatnot.

Take a look at gods with the Death domain, they would be the obvious choice for a cleric etc. For an arcane caster, I suppose anything flies.
Animated skeletons are undead, so having that follow you around can be problematic :p


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 14 2015, 20:52 PM 

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Just to say, White Necromancy may well be "just Necromancy" at the end of the day. To my knowledge it's an IC term with no actual mechanical bearing in 3.0-3.5 ed, similar to the Mulhorandi and their idea of "sanctioned undead" versus all other undead. They're cultural and philosophical concepts. But schism and differing thoughts within academia are cool because they remind us that FR magic is equal parts science and mysticism, with likely dozens of different traditions and value systems attached.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 14 2015, 21:20 PM 

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I think that saying there's no meaningful difference between various spins on being a necromancer is getting overly hung up on mechanics. Saying there's no difference between "black" and "white" necromancy is like saying there's no difference between any two soldiers. You're just a person with a sword, right? Mechanically, they're essentially identical; just minor variations on "I stick the pointy end in the other fella." But *why* do you stick the pointy end in the other fella? Which specific other fellas do you choose to stab? Are you a soldier of Tyr, or of Bane?

It's not all just soldiering, and it's not all "just necromancy". Why you do what you do, and where you draw the lines between what you will and won't do, is kind of the essence of character, and therefore of RP.

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MazeOfThorns
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 14 2015, 21:34 PM 

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Go Kelemvor and introduce yourself as a white necromancer and take on setting Tarkuul straight, my friend. You might get hate mail but I'll bet you'll have a lot of great RP. :twisted:

And you go ahead and call it what ever your character wants. Diversity is the spice of Amia!

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Dead
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 15 2015, 2:30 AM 

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Liz wrote:
It's not all just soldiering, and it's not all "just necromancy". Why you do what you do, and where you draw the lines between what you will and won't do, is kind of the essence of character, and therefore of RP.

When it comes to "black" necromancy there's no whys and hows. The universe defines the undead as evil creatures and therefore creating and manipulating undead is intrinsically an act of evil. To get an epic focus in a spell school means that the individual in question is an expert in his field. You do not become an expert by excluding 80% of the spell school. If you want to study necromancy, it is only natural to be curious about the undead too.

Sure, you can use spells from necromancy school without committing an act of evil, but using Horrid Wilting to wither a creature, draining it of all the fluids from its body and then saying "Yeah I'm a good guy as long as I don't raise a skeleton." is kind of weird.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 15 2015, 5:06 AM 

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Dead wrote:
Sure, you can use spells from necromancy school without committing an act of evil, but using Horrid Wilting to wither a creature, draining it of all the fluids from its body and then saying "Yeah I'm a good guy as long as I don't raise a skeleton." is kind of weird.


No less weird than horribly charring someone's flesh until they die with Searing Light and claiming to be good. If there is any neutral concept in the FR universe generally used by all sides of the moral spectrums, it's violence. Necromancy definitely has a good share of fundamentally evil spells(according to the game universe) but it's not like there are many methods of killing people that aren't gruesome in one way or another. Hell, the most merciful I can think of is probably a Necromancy spell. Something like Finger of Death of Slay Living. I suppose you can flavor it up with as much gore and pain as you want, but empirically all those do is simply cause the target to die. I could totally see a Necromancer, "white", "gray", "black", whatever taking a lot of pride in that. "What? You actually beat people to death or wait for them to bleed out on the cold ground? You torture them with acids and lightning and fire until they're dead? How uncivilized. Sure, I kill people, but when I do, it's quick, painless, and relatively instant."

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Dead
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 15 2015, 13:31 PM 

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And so this thread will come to the famous discussion "What is good, what is evil?". Merciful murder is only merciful in a world where death doesn't exist. Ice Storm gives your enemy a chance to retreat. When you attack someone with a sword you can stop the attack. When you cast a Finger of Death your intention is to kill a living thing. You have no second thoughts about it. There is no room for changing your mind. Avada Kedavra baby!

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 15 2015, 21:54 PM 

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I wasn't trying to start a good vs evil debate. I was just responding to your suggestion that it's weird for someone to use Necromancy or maybe specifically Horrid Wilting and claiming to be good... as if there are that many more pleasant ways to die involving magic.

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