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Candle
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 29 2016, 17:56 PM 

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Normally I wouldn't concsider this a big deal, but because my character is a Paladin, I imagine it being a huge deal both ICly and Mechanics wise, perhaps someone can better explain this to me. I’ll just explain what’s going on with questions along the way.

ICly, Candle has been following Lathander since she was very young, a priest of such had taken pity on her and the hate and darkness she carried, and helped reshape her life into what she is today. A “rebirth” from her former dark self as it were. That rebirth was completed in a character story/ journal that I am still writing, where she hunted down the Thayan necromancer that had killed her family and changed her life, and killed him in his sleep, stabbing him in the back. Dishonorable yes, but against a known evil.

(First question, would killing a known evil dishonorably cause her to be fallen mechanics wise?)

Since her return to the island, she has been for the most part, keeping quiet on the religious front, feeling herself unworthy, and does not wear her symbol of Lathander unless she is going into combat or feels she needs to give a blessing to someone.

(Again, is she actually fallen? or just being melodramatic?)


Then recent events in game have caused me to find a new direction for her as a Priestess of Yondalla, but that would involve ICly, and OOCly switching deities.

(Icly swapping deities, is there a way to do so with the blessing of the deity you are leaving? Candle kind of feels at the moment her life has been turned around, and wants to help her fellow kinsman now as ‘one of them’, as it were, but doesn't want to essentially tell Lathander "It was fun buddy but fark off")

(OOCly and Mechanics wise, what can I expect if I do swap deities as a Paladin, and how do I work through it?)

The ultimate goal of all of this is at next level up to have Candle level up as a Cleric to Yondalla, but if I do that do I lose my Paladin-li-ness from Lathander for good? Or does Yondalla take over the boon-ings that come with that class?

TLDR version: I don’t know where to start ICly or OOCly.


 
      
Candle
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 29 2016, 17:57 PM 

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I also don't know if this is the right sub-forum for this question so feel free to move it if needs be.


 
      
serbiris
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 29 2016, 18:08 PM 

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1. Yes, probably. Paladins are Lawful /and/ Good. It might be Good to wipe that scourge from the face of Toril but it's not Lawful to do it in that particular way. But that's like, my opinion, man, and I'm not even a DM so take it with a grain of salt.

2. Well, see 1. It's possible for her not to be fallen if she killed the dude /before/ she became a paladin. I mean, I know paladins are born and not made, but the "spark" of their power does have to be trained and nurtured by the church. It's possible that killing someone at that point in time presents only a bump that would need to be worked over in order to reach paladinhood. I don't think that fits the narrative you're going for, though there might be a middle ground there somewhere.

3. With Lathander, it might actually be possible - rebirth is a big thing for him and he tends to be pretty forgiving about that sort of thing. That said... it would be quite difficult, moreso than it is for clerics to make a deity switch, given that paladins are chosen one types. AFAIK, can still be done, but I may be wrong. Of course, as you're going from pally to cleric, you should be fine on that count. It'll still be a trying process, but it does happen. Moving into clericdom is magnitudes easier than moving into paladinhood, although you would need to have your character adjust from paladin mindset to cleric mindset, at least in terms of class features (like going to primary Wis, having more spells, less combat skill and so on).

4. You'll be mechanically Fallen for at least a little while during the process of leaving paladinhood, which means losing most of your paladin class features. Spells, divine stuff, etc. It's not too bad, but you're definitely gimped for combat. This isn't so bad, since moving into cleric is as much learning to not be the paladin you were.

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Holy_Avenger
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 29 2016, 18:10 PM 

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This actually depends...

For paladin, such act could be considered a violation of Code of Conduct and in that case, she would be considered Fallen.

If she was a Gray Guard, it would be different - this PrC gives paladin a brand new options in fighting against evil, without violating their code.

Question is - Is she only expelled from a Church of Lathander or did Lathander himself abandoned her for her acts and with that she loses her Divine abilities?

This is a question that needs to be answered I believe.

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Candle
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 29 2016, 18:21 PM 

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serbiris wrote:
4. You'll be mechanically Fallen for at least a little while during the process of leaving paladinhood, which means losing most of your paladin class features. Spells, divine stuff, etc. It's not too bad, but you're definitely gimped for combat. This isn't so bad, since moving into cleric is as much learning to not be the paladin you were.


Do those abilities ever come back from the new deity though? or are they gone forever?

Holy_Avenger wrote:
This actually depends...

Question is - Is she only expelled from a Church of Lathander or did Lathander himself abandoned her for her acts and with that she loses her Divine abilities?

This is a question that needs to be answered I believe.


No she was/is very much still a Paladin, this is part of her ongoing story, she found the man that killed her family and instead of confronting him directly, she stabbed him in the back 16 times while he slept. As I said I'm still writing the story for the journal forum, its all explained there.

Short version is she gave into the anger and darkness in her that she has been fighting since she lost her family when she was young, and now feels that she needs a new direction for her life. moving on from Paladinhood.

Though my question still stands of do those paladin abilities if she indeed falls, come back when she is accepted by the new deity? or will she need a rebuild?


 
      
serbiris
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 29 2016, 18:23 PM 

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If you become a paladin of the new deity, yes, you regain all those lost abilities. I don't know if you would need to "retrain" them with a delevel/rebuild process, but it wouldn't be out of the question.

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Holy_Avenger
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 29 2016, 18:26 PM 

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Candle wrote:
Holy_Avenger wrote:
This actually depends...

Question is - Is she only expelled from a Church of Lathander or did Lathander himself abandoned her for her acts and with that she loses her Divine abilities?

This is a question that needs to be answered I believe.


No she was/is very much still a Paladin, this is part of her ongoing story, she found the man that killed her family and instead of confronting him directly, she stabbed him in the back 16 times while he slept. As I said I'm still writing the story for the journal forum, its all explained there.

Short version is she gave into the anger and darkness in her that she has been fighting since she lost her family when she was young, and now feels that she needs a new direction for her life. moving on from Paladinhood.

Though my question still stands of do those paladin abilities if she indeed falls, come back when she is accepted by the new deity? or will she need a rebuild?


Mhmm, well that's the question! If any deity will be willing to accept her and she will show enough courage, dedication and faith, I believe she will be able to stay paladin - even with new deity. It would probably need a new training, because every paladin is different (depends on the church - for example Helmites and Lathanderites will have almost nothing in common, regarding training) ... But in the end, I believe it is possible to stay Paladin. (But I am no DM, so...)

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Candle
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 29 2016, 18:49 PM 

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Holy_Avenger wrote:

Mhmm, well that's the question! If any deity will be willing to accept her and she will show enough courage, dedication and faith, I believe she will be able to stay paladin - even with new deity. It would probably need a new training, because every paladin is different (depends on the church - for example Helmites and Lathanderites will have almost nothing in common, regarding training) ... But in the end, I believe it is possible to stay Paladin. (But I am no DM, so...)


I imagine Lathander to Yondalla for a Paladin wouldn't be the easiest of transitions, they are similar, but not really. This is all part of Candle's desire to get back to her halfling roots.

But yeah, I hear if we talk about a DM enough they spontaneously appear...

*looks about shiftily*


 
      
Luckbringer
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jan 30 2016, 6:43 AM 

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*Poof!*

Sorry, not a DM either.

But I can quote a bit about what the lore says regarding clergy switching faiths. In 2ed Faiths and Avatars there is a section about this specific topic. A clergy member can switch of course but there are consequences. The old church would become antagonistic towards the abandoning clergy member, either through outright hostilities or just socially ostracising them depending on the brand of faith. I.e. an evil aligned church may send assassins after them or a good church may just refuse to grant them any future services or aid etc. The god themself would be generally pretty pissed at the clergy member from breaking their vowels of service and cut off any divine powers they provide, hence the fall. Edit: and they also loose a level.of experience.

As for the god who the clergy member wishes to join, the lore says there is a 75% chance that the new god will accept them (deities like to roll dice apparently for these types of decisions). Which is good odds they'll be accepted. I assume in terms of role play this would entail proving themselves to this new god. This would be particularly important to a paladin, as a paladin in essence lives by thier oaths made to their patron god. To become a paladin you have to sware your life to a god's cause. Which as LG is pretty hard to renounce. Likely something irreconcilable on the side of the god would have to have taken place for a paladin to break their oath to a god while still remaining LG. Furthermore, by breaking their oaths to their first god, and proving themselves to be unworthy, why would a new god want to take on this oathbreaker. Switching from a fallen paladin to a cleric of a new faith may be easier than a fallen paladin to another god's paladin/cleric. Of course its dependent on the individual faiths in question. Lathander and Yondalla are both goody goody welcoming gods so your character will most likely not be smited, but the difficulties may be in justifying your character's choices within their alignment and codes.

Of course this is purely my interpretation of said lore.

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Candle
 
PostPosted: Tue, Feb 02 2016, 16:44 PM 

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So...

It appears that after level 10 I cannot change gods without DM assistance. So this thread would move from a "What does this mean" thread to "Help me please."

I did not know this going into this. Candle is lvl 13.


 
      
Couch_Ninja
 
PostPosted: Tue, Feb 02 2016, 18:45 PM 



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Luckbringer wrote:
Why would a new god want to take on this oathbreaker.

Ask the Christian god. He loves doing that shit, he's also got forgiveness in his portfolio. We must realize always that the gods as we know them do not view or treat their followers the same way. They are all divine beings with completely different personalities that have different motivations for being what they are. They would each respond differently to such a thing. I would also like to point out that Paladins aren't the 'chosen ones' of a god as was mentioned earlier in this thread. That would be Favored Souls (a class not featured in Amia).

So, yeah. What we're looking at is a character who became a devout Lathandarite (a Neutral Good deity) because of circumstances in her early life. She was adopted into the temple as a screwed up girl and was then sucessively guided into a becoming a responsible adult with clear convictions to do good. Ready to serve the church and god that lifted her out of the chasm that was her early life.

But read that again. . .Her reasons for 'being' a Lathandarite aren't entirely her own. They were partially caused by her temple upbringing. And now, after finally taking revenge on the original source of pain that caused her to be adopted in the first place, she gets a sense that her life with Lathander has reached its conclusion. I would add to that seeking revenge in this fashion is not supported by Lathander's dogma. It was a choice on behalf of herself and her slain parents.

These are all rather sound reasons for the seed of doubt to root inside the soul. She's torn between the life she's lived and whether it is truely her's. But where do you go from there?

You seek council.
And there's where we are at present. A day ago Candle approached my Priest of Yondallah about the topic, and he's quite resolved to do as clerics do to ICly transition her to the faith of the Hin.
However, the question about classes remains standing. Yondallah does have Paladins, at least I think she does. But clerics and any other profession should certainly be feasable.


 
      
Gribbo
 
PostPosted: Tue, Feb 02 2016, 20:58 PM 



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Candle wrote:
So...

It appears that after level 10 I cannot change gods without DM assistance. So this thread would move from a "What does this mean" thread to "Help me please."

I did not know this going into this. Candle is lvl 13.


At this ponit you need to either make a general request topic, or send a dm a pm, that you are looking for a dm to oversee your transfer.

You may fall, if you do it lasts until you are considered in the good graces of your new god.

So, when you make your request make sure you have a good idea how you plan to prove your devotion.


 
      
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