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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 05 2016, 14:41 PM 



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Hello,
I am not entirely sure if this is the right place to ask it, as it kind of is a question about both rules and lore.

So, as far as I know, a level 5 Druid PC is not considered to HAVE to be a Druid IC if it is only taken for the shifter class... So, this character would not be bound by any of the Druid-Code-Thing. On the other hand, he could also be one of the non-neutral alignment (CE, LE, CG, LG), and would not have any reason to be able to speak Silvan, is that correct so far?

So, now that that problem should be cleared up, does this also mean that, in theory, a character should be allowed to take weapon proficiencies on druid, and most of all, shifter levels, right? (Since NWN mechanics disabled that)
The question is rather meant theoretical and not mechanical, just curious if I got that piece of lore right.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 05 2016, 19:32 PM 

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Once you hit level 5 and start taking shifter you should decide if you're going to follow druid ethics or just be a shifter.

IIRC if you opt for the shifter path and really go against what your deity demands and do things they don't like or shift away from a neutral alignment, you may 'fall' and lose access to what few spells you did have, but that doesn't seem too enforced given how many undead shifters there are. I was told this was because a shifters 'spells' are still divine. But I'm sure someone is going to correct this.

Additionally you can just RP still being a druid who excels at wild-shape.

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corypx
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 05 2016, 21:04 PM 

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Also you can take 10 druid level with shifter and not be a druid because our class powers are effected by druid to a degree because of overlapping forms like Elemental forms and dragon shape.
DC Calculations and Spells:
DCs on Shifter abilities are calculated from a unique formula: 10 + 1/2 of Shifter Level + Wisdom Modifier. In cases where an ability has a duration, it is calculated as Druid + Shifter level. For abilities which have a scaling damage amount, the amount is again calculated as Druid + Shifter level.


So to give people the option for the extra 5 levels I believe you can take the 10 druid levels but as a non druid shifter the base rules of not useing its druid spells,druid only gear or its Animal Companions still are in effect.

Shifters spells are counted as Spell-Like Abilities but are not granted by gods hence we cant fall.

Quote:
in theory, a character should be allowed to take weapon proficiencies on druid, and most of all, shifter levels, right?


Yes in theory you should be able to take weapon proficiencies given why would our forms use weapons they cant hold, such as Risen lord holding a scythe.

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Phantomahawk
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 05 2016, 23:27 PM 

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corypx wrote:
Also you can take 10 druid level with shifter and not be a druid...


I believe it is only 5 levels you can take to "not be a druid". I think 6 or more means you are, not sure, don't take my word for it.


 
      
corypx
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 06 2016, 0:12 AM 

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Phantomahawk wrote:
corypx wrote:
Also you can take 10 druid level with shifter and not be a druid...


I believe it is only 5 levels you can take to "not be a druid". I think 6 or more means you are, not sure, don't take my word for it.


It was 5 before the shifter fix because you had no reason to take more as your shifter skills were not effected by it.
After the fix the cap was raised to 10 levels as you sort of treat the druid levels as pseudo shifter levels for the sake of duration and scaling damage amount calculations because we are unable to take 25 shifter levels, as they added druid into calculations for druids to also gain improvements to elemental shape and dragon feat form instead of having it 5 or 10+shifter level.


The only feats from 5-10 druid you would not already gain from shifter is Venom immunity, as even with 10 druid levels if you are not a IC druid, you still cant use its spells, gear or companions I think is the reason why they don't mind given you are not really gaining a advantage from the druid levels themselves so much as from its effect to improve your shifted forms

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Dead
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 07 2016, 7:34 AM 

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AirPhforce wrote:
..but that doesn't seem too enforced given how many undead shifters there are.

A druid that shifts into an undead is entitled for an auto-fall IIRC. A druid may never, ever, under any circumstances, shift into an undead.

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Kudark
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 07 2016, 7:59 AM 

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Dead wrote:
AirPhforce wrote:
..but that doesn't seem too enforced given how many undead shifters there are.

A druid that shifts into an undead is entitled for an auto-fall IIRC. A druid may never, ever, under any circumstances, shift into an undead.

Would this not depend on chosen deity?

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exquisitelyme
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 07 2016, 21:21 PM 

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Kudark wrote:
Dead wrote:
AirPhforce wrote:
..but that doesn't seem too enforced given how many undead shifters there are.

A druid that shifts into an undead is entitled for an auto-fall IIRC. A druid may never, ever, under any circumstances, shift into an undead.

Would this not depend on chosen deity?


I dont think so, unless there is a different ruling in Amia. Independently of deity, undeath and druids is a no-no.

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Bravo21
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 07 2016, 21:35 PM 

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Kudark wrote:
Dead wrote:
AirPhforce wrote:
..but that doesn't seem too enforced given how many undead shifters there are.

A druid that shifts into an undead is entitled for an auto-fall IIRC. A druid may never, ever, under any circumstances, shift into an undead.

Would this not depend on chosen deity?


No, none of the druidic deities support undead. Even the evil side of druidic circles view undeath as the antithesis of of the natural order.

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Kudark
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 07 2016, 22:36 PM 

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Cool, thanks!

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 27 2016, 15:59 PM 

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The shifter class (Masters of the Wild: A Guidebook to Barbarians, Druids, and Rangers variant, p. 68) originally only have the following requirements
Quote:
Feats: Alertness , Endurance
Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level spells.
Special: Alternate Form—must either know polymorph self or have a natural alternate form, alter self, polymorph self, shapechange, or wild shape ability.

As such the NWN variant is a bit too limiting and shifters were allowed to choose to not RP their druid levels as druidic levels. In essense, loosing the ability to cast any spells & speak druidic, in return for not being bound by any of the oaths of it, and thus able to use undead shapes freely.

There's a full list of the PRC Shifter class here. If you compare it to the NWN one, you can see the PRC is much more open ended and allow for a great deal of variety both in forms and "background" of the character.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 27 2016, 20:03 PM 

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Can I get a libk off where it was raised to 1 Druid levels Cory? I do not remember that change.

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corypx
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 27 2016, 21:19 PM 

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TormakSaber wrote:
Can I get a libk off where it was raised to 1 Druid levels Cory? I do not remember that change.


I'll try and find it, it might have been one of the many topside rulings that the time was never posted on the forums.
look at my case when I started there was no ruling on OOC druid levels for shifters it was the DMs pulling me aside and saying......yeah we don't like a druid using undead form so you don't have to be a druid, don't use spells, pet or druid only gear nothing was posted about the ruling I don't think for years at least public side.

It might be worth just getting the current DMs to look over it and see if they rather 5 or 10 druid levels for OOC non-druid and getting it posted under the class changes page?

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 28 2016, 8:05 AM 

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My vote is still for only 5 levels - the exact minimum to get in the class.

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MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 06 2016, 2:52 AM 

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Bravo21 wrote:
Kudark wrote:
Dead wrote:
A druid that shifts into an undead is entitled for an auto-fall IIRC. A druid may never, ever, under any circumstances, shift into an undead.

Would this not depend on chosen deity?


No, none of the druidic deities support undead. Even the evil side of druidic circles view undeath as the antithesis of of the natural order.


This is not true. There is no generic "nature force" in charge of druidism in the Forgotten Realms' setting, so every druid represents a particular nature god and their ethos. That said, every druid's policies toward undead and undeath reflect the deity they are devoted to and it's culture.

That said, pretty much every nature deity within the Mulhorandi pantheon sees undead as just another part of Ma'at to be respected or acknowledged. Osiris (a nature deity) is the patron god of guardian and non-evil undead in that culture and incorporates them into his ethos. Sentient, non-evil undead rule and make up a huge portion of his realm population and mortals taking oaths (while living) to devote themselves to become a guardian mummy or other form of undead that guards tomb complexes are revered and encouraged.

Isis (another Mulhorandi nature deity) is his wife and would likely share his views. If she didn't, she'd find him pretty repugnant.

Set (ditto) wouldn't give a toss about his druids taking any shape that gives them more power, especially since he makes plenty of use of undeath in his followers as is.

Anhur and Sebek aren't well-defined, but I have a hard time thinking either care a wit about undeath particularly given Egyptian culture and views on the afterlife.

Beyond the Mulhorandi pantheon, there are other examples of nature gods who'd find the power of undeath non-offensive and would even foster or encourage it. Talona most certainly fosters Blighters, so much to the point that they'd probably outnumber normal druids possibly. Umberlee would probably encourage her druids to make use of the corpses of sailors as well and probably wouldn't be bothered by her druids using undead shape either.

One has to remember that classes like Paladin and Druid do not follow the generic archetype offered in the PHB in Forgotten Realms because their powers are not provided by the Force/Philosophy of Goodness or Nature, but instead by actual individual deities themselves. A Paladin of Sune follows Sune's ethos and isn't going to be in hot water if they witness and do nothing about a crime that has nothing to do with beauty and art, just like a Druid of Talona is very likely to do what they can to foster a necromantic plague, if not start one themselves.

I've never heard the "10 druid is not a druid" thing before, is this true? I'm not sure it ever should, simply because that's the cost of using a prestige class, you can't go full class. After all, there's no 30 assassin, blackguard, palemaster and such. Having to abide RP restriction for 5 more CL seems reasonable if you want it that bad, imo.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 06 2016, 3:38 AM 

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Don't use undead as a druid.

Quote:
A Paladin of Sune follows Sune's ethos and isn't going to be in hot water if they witness and do nothing about a crime that has nothing to do with beauty and art


Yes they will.

Quote:
just like a Druid of Talona is very likely to do what they can to foster a necromantic plague, if not start one themselves.


Don't do this. Difference between swathes of undead, and diease and naturally occuring illness.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 06 2016, 7:27 AM 

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The no undead has nothing to do with the deity but with the druidic code.

The druidic code stands above the specific deity dogma.

Alas for example Auril and Umberlee do not mind undead. Their clerics would be perfectly fine to use them. Their druids would not.

Druids have their very own codes just like paladins (but of course quite different ones than a paladin :P). However just as paladin, that overall code is the same and then the deity dogma decides the fine tuning and rest of how they act otherwise than the few specifics they all have in common.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 06 2016, 7:30 AM 

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P.S. Blighters are very specifically EX-druids. Meaning they no longer are druids.

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Zaldra5
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 06 2016, 8:03 AM 

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A line from the player's handbook kind of gives the what druids will tolerate or what they won't tolerate

Quote:
While druids accept that which is horrific or cruel in nature, they hate that which is unnatural, including aberrations (such as beholders and carrion crawlers) and undead (such as zombies and vampires). They sometimes lead raids against such creatures, especially when the creatures encroach on the druids' territory


Natural = fine
Unnatural = Not fine

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NinjaClarinet
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 06 2016, 8:18 AM 



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MightNMagic wrote:
This is not true. There is no generic "nature force" in charge of druidism in the Forgotten Realms' setting, so every druid represents a particular nature god and their ethos. That said, every druid's policies toward undead and undeath reflect the deity they are devoted to and it's culture.

That said, pretty much every nature deity within the Mulhorandi pantheon sees undead as just another part of Ma'at to be respected or acknowledged. Osiris (a nature deity) is the patron god of guardian and non-evil undead in that culture and incorporates them into his ethos. Sentient, non-evil undead rule and make up a huge portion of his realm population and mortals taking oaths (while living) to devote themselves to become a guardian mummy or other form of undead that guards tomb complexes are revered and encouraged.

Isis (another Mulhorandi nature deity) is his wife and would likely share his views. If she didn't, she'd find him pretty repugnant.

Set (ditto) wouldn't give a toss about his druids taking any shape that gives them more power, especially since he makes plenty of use of undeath in his followers as is.

Anhur and Sebek aren't well-defined, but I have a hard time thinking either care a wit about undeath particularly given Egyptian culture and views on the afterlife.


So much yes. The idea that there's some magical, all-powerful druidic code that transcends all cultures, across completely different continents, that have no connection to one another, is a pretty far stretch of logic and imagination. I've always though that druids should be explicitly products of their cultures and deities, given their traditional role as community leaders and mentors. The thought of druids of Osiris and Isis running around trying to smite clerics of those same deities every time a Mulhorandi warrior volunteers to continue their service in undeath, is just patently stupid.


 
      
serbiris
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 06 2016, 10:40 AM 

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NinjaClarinet wrote:
So much yes. The idea that there's some magical, all-powerful druidic code that transcends all cultures, across completely different continents, that have no connection to one another, is a pretty far stretch of logic and imagination. I've always though that druids should be explicitly products of their cultures and deities, given their traditional role as community leaders and mentors. The thought of druids of Osiris and Isis running around trying to smite clerics of those same deities every time a Mulhorandi warrior volunteers to continue their service in undeath, is just patently stupid.


It's funny that you mention the code is magical considering that access to magic is exactly what it governs. The logic is that the Druidic code comes from a direct attunement nature, independent of a culture's given interpretation of nature. That's pretty much the divide between clerics and druids. The gods supposedly work with the code, patronising druids in the pursuit of their craft and imposing conditions, but without overriding the core beliefs of the class. Druids of gods who endorse undead probably just keep their distance from clerics practicing necromancy. Or maybe they call them heretics and start a schism - y'know, like how religions work in real life.

The PHB entry even talks about a world-spanning druidic society, suggesting that they are very much apart from the culture and society of non-druids, and tend to adopt at least some measure of isolation even as they offer guidance.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 06 2016, 10:58 AM 

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serbiris wrote:
NinjaClarinet wrote:
So much yes. The idea that there's some magical, all-powerful druidic code that transcends all cultures, across completely different continents, that have no connection to one another, is a pretty far stretch of logic and imagination. I've always though that druids should be explicitly products of their cultures and deities, given their traditional role as community leaders and mentors. The thought of druids of Osiris and Isis running around trying to smite clerics of those same deities every time a Mulhorandi warrior volunteers to continue their service in undeath, is just patently stupid.


It's funny that you mention the code is magical considering that access to magic is exactly what it governs. The logic is that the Druidic code comes from a direct attunement nature, independent of a culture's given interpretation of nature. That's pretty much the divide between clerics and druids. The gods supposedly work with the code, patronising druids in the pursuit of their craft and imposing conditions, but without overriding the core beliefs of the class. Druids of gods who endorse undead probably just keep their distance from clerics practicing necromancy. Or maybe they call them heretics and start a schism - y'know, like how religions work in real life.

The PHB entry even talks about a world-spanning druidic society, suggesting that they are very much apart from the culture and society of non-druids, and tend to adopt at least some measure of isolation even as they offer guidance.


I agree. If a Druid was just expected to follow the dogma of their god, they just would be a cleric, who could inexplicably turn into animals and cast different spells.

The other argument, that a 'druid code' that supersedes defic dogma defies logic, might hold water... except that the gods arn't always logical, do stupid shit, fuck up, make mistakes, and make arbitrary decisions. One of the things with the setting is that you can, quite literally, TALK to your god and get an actual answer. Of course, there's no reason anyone would do this, because by the time someone got enough divine influence to channel such a spell and be worthy of such an audience, they would already know the answer, because it was all decided before the dawn of history.

Fact of the matter is, druidism is separate. Deities that sponsor druidism do so because the druidic values, ethics, and morals align with enough of that gods values, ethics and morals that they are willing to grant divine power to uphold it. If you still don't get why a druid gets to be special and not uphold the undead-tolerant ethos of some deities, well, consider it just another mystery of the druids.

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NinjaClarinet
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 06 2016, 11:09 AM 



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Alright, I'll give you that it's possible, even if it strikes me as unlikely and artificial. You'd think Druids would have a more "organic" relationship with their cultures ;)

Sticking point though, is that "keeping your distance" isn't enough enough for the folks around here. When people are getting Fallen just for being in the same zone as an undead without immediately going the PvP route, it really doesn't seem plausible that Mulhorand druids would be held to the same standards as Western ones. They'd all be fallen soon as they went to visit dead family and walked past the tomb guardians.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 06 2016, 11:29 AM 

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NinjaClarinet wrote:
Alright, I'll give you that it's possible, even if it strikes me as unlikely and artificial. You'd think Druids would have a more "organic" relationship with their cultures ;)

Sticking point though, is that "keeping your distance" isn't enough enough for the folks around here. When people are getting Fallen just for being in the same zone as an undead without immediately going the PvP route, it really doesn't seem plausible that Mulhorand druids would be held to the same standards as Western ones. They'd all be fallen soon as they went to visit dead family and walked past the tomb guardians.


Undead are an abomination, an affront to the natural order. Culture has no baring on the ghosts or bodies of those that have passed on being crudely animated or spiritual tied to an area; to a druid, it is wrong, always wrong. Even undead mimicry is a point of contention, even though it's just emulating an undead.

I don't really feel like getting into magic and moral relativism here, you have to remember we arn't talking about a real world with laws and rules that make sense. Many deities were mortal once, and carried their preconceptions about right and wrong into their ascension. They are the ones who control the means of magical production, and are often flawed in their judgement. Even moreso when looked at from a modern ethical lens. But at the end of the day, they said it, so that's how it is.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 06 2016, 11:41 AM 

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For one, I'd never fall a druid or cleric for just being on the same map as an undead. What I would like to see is a possible conflict or discomfort if they meet eachother. Now in DnD druids often are very secluded and stay among themselves (not on Amia because that would be kinda hard to pull) so you need to remember that they actually do not often live in the middle of a community with a few exceptions like Chauntea and some others. This part is indeed depending a lot on the actual culture.

Now I had a few druids I DMed for who were part of my Auril or Umberlee faction. I handled that this way: The druids themselves were forbidden to take undead forms and CREATE the undead. Something that is pretty logical imho, seeing they get no ability even whatsoever to do that. Druids get no spells to create undead or shift into undead at all. If there was a large battle to happen or an attack and they were to join forces due to a mission of upholding the will of their deity or defend the land under the will of their deity, they were allowed to tolerate undead within this purpose for this cause. Alas not some vanilla hunting for fame and fort but something really important. And in this case they could tolerate them and not have them themselves (create them) and be friendly with them.


AirPhforce is right though in how unlogical things can be. Ubtao hates undead. He gives his clerics and druids bonuses even to specifically destroy them. Yet Ras Nsi one of his own Chosen was tolerated to create undead to seek bloody vengeance over the Ehsowe tribe.

What you describe with the Mulhorandi would prolly be the same as an elven druid with a Baelnorn. They'd likely be conflicted and try to avoid them due to their feelings towards the unnatural vs their cultures high values for what they are doing. They would not outright go and destroy them because of that, but neither hang around them in comfortable unity. The later often working rather well usually because druids tend to stick to their own turf and the wilds (be it an Oasis, a forest, a piece of jungle or a mountain) and only go to the communities if really needed.

P.S. One clear proof that there is an overall druidic code is that they all speak druidic. No matter of what culture they have. So there clearly is more than just the culture and just the deity.

Also from the players handbook 3.5:

Though their organization is invisible to most outsiders, who consider druids to be loners, druids are part of a society that spans the land, ignoring political borders. A prospective druid is inducted into this society through secret rituals, including tests that not all survive. Only after achieving some level of competence is the druid allowed to strike out on her own.

All druids are nominally members of the druidic society though some are so isolated that they have never seen high-ranking members or participated in druidic gatherings. Still, all druids recognize each other as brothers and sisters. Like true creatures of the wilderness, however, druids sometimes compete with or even prey on each other.

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666WaysToHell
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 08 2016, 11:32 AM 

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The Tomb Guardians of Mulhorand are more akin to Deathless, having been risen with divine sanction through their emissaries or directly by the divine itself to guard over the tombs of the honoured dead. As such, they can never (willingly) leave the tomb they're guarding.

Regular undead are risen through evil necromancy spells and rituals and seek to destroy all life.

Mechanically they are undead, but lore-wise there's a very fine distinction. Not that any eastern civilization cares to listen to reason above their own idea of moral right and wrong. :D

I believe this is the work-around we used previously due to the prominence of both druids and good-aligned priests in Mulhorand.

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Silkelock
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 09 2016, 10:00 AM 

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666WaysToHell wrote:
The Tomb Guardians of Mulhorand are more akin to Deathless, having been risen with divine sanction through their emissaries or directly by the divine itself to guard over the tombs of the honoured dead. As such, they can never (willingly) leave the tomb they're guarding.

Regular undead are risen through evil necromancy spells and rituals and seek to destroy all life.

Mechanically they are undead, but lore-wise there's a very fine distinction. Not that any eastern civilization cares to listen to reason above their own idea of moral right and wrong. :D

I believe this is the work-around we used previously due to the prominence of both druids and good-aligned priests in Mulhorand.


Do not confuse them with deathless. The practice of loyal servants beyond the living cycle is an old way not exclusive to Mulhorand.

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666WaysToHell
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 09 2016, 10:27 AM 

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Direct me to the lore on Mulhorandi tomb guardians and then I will correct myself. They dont come about of their own free will and they arent raised through evil necromancy which leaves only clerics and their deities, which is what deathless are.

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NinjaClarinet
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 09 2016, 10:57 AM 



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Mulhorand has a mix of deathless and undead. Deathless tend to arise spontaneously more often than created. A tomb could very well be protected by a mix of slumbering undead mummies that only react to robbers, and deathless "tomb guardians". Hit my Skype if you want, I had to read a ton for Talyne.


 
      
Silkelock
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 09 2016, 18:08 PM 

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666WaysToHell wrote:
Direct me to the lore on Mulhorandi tomb guardians and then I will correct myself. They dont come about of their own free will and they arent raised through evil necromancy which leaves only clerics and their deities, which is what deathless are.


Well you have Tomb Wardens from Libris Mortis and then Mummy Lords from the Monster Manual.

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666WaysToHell
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 10 2016, 3:35 AM 

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And so i stand corrected, though i was half right about the cleric part. Who would have thought eleven secret herbs and spices was the key to immortality.

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GreatPigeon
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 10 2016, 9:44 AM 

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666WaysToHell wrote:
Who would have thought eleven secret herbs and spices was the key to immortality.


Colonel Sanders!

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