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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 3:56 AM 

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I see AO being brought up a lot in casual conversation, I thought that guy worked at keeping people from knowing about him and people that did got that bit of their memories wiped or changed, and cults to him that formed tended to vanish mysteriously with nobody remembering.

Is that actually how it goes on Amia? Do people know about AO or not?

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Last edited by Commie on Sat, Feb 13 2016, 5:12 AM, edited 2 times in total.

 
      
CrazyCatLady
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 4:20 AM 

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If it were not for Ao's involvement in the Time of Troubles, he would most likely be forgotten by the mortals of Faerûn. Ao did not want to be known, for cults once dedicated to him only a decade ago[as of when?] began to die out, and Ao's name disappeared from written records. What went on in Toril and what the other deities did were of no concern to Ao, as long as the deities upheld their individual portfolios and did not completely ignore their worshipers.

In addition, unlike the other gods under him, Lord Ao had no need for worshipers whatsoever, whereas those "normal" gods who did not receive the worship of mortals could "die" from lack of worship. Ao initiated this after the Time of Troubles in order to enforce his will that the gods act as guardians of the Balance rather than kings of mortal.

I would not say he worked to not have people from knowing him, but more that he had no need of faithful followers.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 5:11 AM 

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CrazyCatLady wrote:
If it were not for Ao's involvement in the Time of Troubles, he would most likely be forgotten by the mortals of Faerûn. Ao did not want to be known, for cults once dedicated to him only a decade ago[as of when?] began to die out, and Ao's name disappeared from written records. What went on in Toril and what the other deities did were of no concern to Ao, as long as the deities upheld their individual portfolios and did not completely ignore their worshipers.

In addition, unlike the other gods under him, Lord Ao had no need for worshipers whatsoever, whereas those "normal" gods who did not receive the worship of mortals could "die" from lack of worship. Ao initiated this after the Time of Troubles in order to enforce his will that the gods act as guardians of the Balance rather than kings of mortal.

I would not say he worked to not have people from knowing him, but more that he had no need of faithful followers.


Yeah but AO came up in the sermon today in a context entirely independent from the time o troubles. It's come up before when i was flat out told ic to worship AO above all others and other bits of nonsense.

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Last edited by Commie on Sat, Feb 13 2016, 5:12 AM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 5:12 AM 

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No, AO actively removes information about him from existing. PCs who talk about AO should be held in equal amounts of skepticism and derision, because there is literally no proof he exists, nothing he ever did can be found our or attributed to him IC, and nothing gets around this because he is The Overgod. Cults to AO fall out of existence in a matter of years and sometimes months as the group forgets what evern brought them together in the first place. Scholars misplace books, forget lore, and thing sjust fade.

In fact most people dont even know AO had anything to *do* with the Time of troubles... nor do most people know literally anything about wht cause dit or why, other than that holy shit the gods walked the earth.

For a more specific example: a mulhorandi absolutely would not be able to say "AO broke the Imaskari barrier that freed my gods." That sort of information is not known, and does not exist to be known.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 5:15 AM 

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TormakSaber wrote:

For a more specific example: a mulhorandi absolutely would not be able to say "AO broke the Imaskari barrier that freed my gods." That sort of information is not known, and does not exist to be known.


Yeah thats just what really made me curious about the whole thing. How did he know about AO doing that?

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 5:19 AM 

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As an aside, we should probably just remove the Ring of Ao already. I know it's cute Disco-ism, but he's Dutch. So...


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 5:23 AM 

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LetumLux wrote:
As an aside, we should probably just remove the Ring of Ao already. I know it's cute Disco-ism, but he's Dutch. So...


re-name it into something cryptic and make it do nothing but like, sell for a lot.

seems more in-style assuming Tormak is right here. it used to be engraved now it's just a fancy ring with no discernible purpose or origin.

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Aerneth
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 5:23 AM 

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Ooops. Sorry guys :(

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 5:29 AM 

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Aerneth wrote:
Ooops. Sorry guys :(


it's ok i already forgot all about it

HEH

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 5:37 AM 

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AirPhforce wrote:
it's ok i already forgot all about it
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MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 6:24 AM 

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TormakSaber wrote:
No, AO actively removes information about him from existing. PCs who talk about AO should be held in equal amounts of skepticism and derision, because there is literally no proof he exists, nothing he ever did can be found our or attributed to him IC, and nothing gets around this because he is The Overgod. Cults to AO fall out of existence in a matter of years and sometimes months as the group forgets what evern brought them together in the first place. Scholars misplace books, forget lore, and thing sjust fade.


Just out of curiousity, where is this published at? Last I read, the cults were a very real an palpable (but pointless) thing. Granted I haven't been keeping up on lore since 3e much, but if this were true, it strikes me that AO wouldn't even be known at all. Kiaransalee can obliterate Orcus in consciousness all throughout the multiverse in 2e as a mediocre goddess, but an overgod of a sphere can't even manage that in his own dominion seems inconsistently off. It suggests he just doesn't care one way or another, after all, why would he? What's attributed to him online suggests he just doesn't give a damn at all.

(Admittedly, AO's attitude seems to be swiped from the Gods of Lankhmar, but no one said Greenwood could write. :lol: )

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corypx
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 7:51 AM 

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I have two rings of AO, and the amount of powers they have reflect how much of dam he gives about you people. :D

Joking aside, the rings even kind of imply that he might have existed and died, might have never existed and all that.

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Suhjet
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 8:45 AM 

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MightNMagic wrote:
TormakSaber wrote:
No, AO actively removes information about him from existing. PCs who talk about AO should be held in equal amounts of skepticism and derision, because there is literally no proof he exists, nothing he ever did can be found our or attributed to him IC, and nothing gets around this because he is The Overgod. Cults to AO fall out of existence in a matter of years and sometimes months as the group forgets what evern brought them together in the first place. Scholars misplace books, forget lore, and thing sjust fade.


Just out of curiousity, where is this published at? Last I read, the cults were a very real an palpable (but pointless) thing.

Introduction of Faiths and Pantheons.

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Silkelock
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 9:07 AM 

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Wait so how are clerics of Ao treated? this was news to me :)

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 9:32 AM 

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It was my understanding that "clerics" of Ao were specifically called ministers because they didn't receive anything at all from their god. To that end, I thought most people saw them as loonies. In a world where gods are very real and can totally acknowledge acts of worship, why would anyone try to worship the one that not only doesn't acknowledge the worship in any way, but actively works to remove himself from common knowledge? Those who understand the situation would think they're silly. Those who don't would just think they were lying. So I imagine they would be treated pretty poorly all around, on account of being absolutely useless in any meaningful way.

That is, unless it's a savvy mage or ur-priest masquerading as a servant as Ao, because yay blasphemy and divine strife.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 9:32 AM 

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Silkelock wrote:
Wait so how are clerics of Ao treated? this was news to me :)


Poorly. They don't get spells and tend to just wander off and not know how they spent the last few years of their life.

Think it was in one of the Black Isle games too.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 9:40 AM 

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I'd think some level of enforcement here or at least having DM's give people a 'heads up' about AO and what they do or don't know.

To me, AO was just some unknowable thing who only existed so the gods themselves had a boss, and if it's machinations were unknowable to the gods (see tablet o fate smashing) then it would be double unknowable to mortals.

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Last edited by Commie on Sat, Feb 13 2016, 21:59 PM, edited 2 times in total.

 
      
Richard_Edmund
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 11:25 AM 

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Though he'd technically be breaking his own laws as well as his own style if he did actively did that to people.

1: By divine law, the gods themselves cannot directly intervene in mortal affairs.
2: Ao doesn't give two shits about anyone whether they believe in him or not, why would he directly interfere in a mortals life just because they're 98% sure there's an overgod.

He also appeared atop of Mount Waterdeep before or after(?) the time of troubles or something.

It also means that oldest Greater deities of Forgotten Realms just appeared out of nowhere and somehow became gods of their own free will - which is a more ridiculous belief than there being an overgod who watches over the pantheons and promotes/demotes divine ranks.

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Akhlys
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 15:34 PM 

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Dark Immolation wrote:
It was my understanding that "clerics" of Ao were specifically called ministers because they didn't receive anything at all from their god. To that end, I thought most people saw them as loonies. In a world where gods are very real and can totally acknowledge acts of worship, why would anyone try to worship the one that not only doesn't acknowledge the worship in any way, but actively works to remove himself from common knowledge? Those who understand the situation would think they're silly. Those who don't would just think they were lying. So I imagine they would be treated pretty poorly all around, on account of being absolutely useless in any meaningful way.

That is, unless it's a savvy mage or ur-priest masquerading as a servant as Ao, because yay blasphemy and divine strife.


They didn't worship Ao and they actively encouraged people to worship deities. They were philosophers contemplating the structure of gods and the multiverse.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 17:45 PM 

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Richard_Edmund wrote:
Though he'd technically be breaking his own laws as well as his own style if he did actively did that to people.

1: By divine law, the gods themselves cannot directly intervene in mortal affairs.
2: Ao doesn't give two shits about anyone whether they believe in him or not, why would he directly interfere in a mortals life just because they're 98% sure there's an overgod.

He also appeared atop of Mount Waterdeep before or after(?) the time of troubles or something.

It also means that oldest Greater deities of Forgotten Realms just appeared out of nowhere and somehow became gods of their own free will - which is a more ridiculous belief than there being an overgod who watches over the pantheons and promotes/demotes divine ranks.


That's the whole thing, the assumption that some mortals are 98% sure there's an overgod and can somehow name it. Nobody knows that. If you want and your ballsy enough, you can actually just go talk to the Gods via magic or basically just go there via gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm ; Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord.) so their presence and existence is verifiable and real. AO isn't and "AO actively removes information about him from existing," so nobody knows it exists, much less its name.

iirc the whole reason it did the time of troubles was to punish everyone for focusing on their own stupid power struggles and not their followers, culminating in the tablet theft. This always struck me as the reason behind his existence, to make sure the gods do what they are supposed to do, and not to be some kind of overlord himself; he has the functions of a babysitter instead of a god-emperor. AO is higher and above such things as worshipers, and if it answers to an authority, it's even more unknowable then AO itself. That's why it purges knowledge of itself from the world.

Since it's been confirmed that this is how it is, I think players should respect that. Because aside from alt-tabbing to the wiki, there's pretty much no way to know any of this in character. You couldn't even find it in a book. You can't lore-check the information if the information doesn't exist to know. Aside from a queer ring that might drop and has no powers iirc, there's nothing ig or in world even hinting at its existence.

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CrazyCatLady
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 17:59 PM 

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AirPhforce wrote:
I'd think some level of enforcement here or at least giving people a 'heads up' when someone mentions AO that 'you shouldn't know that' might be in order.

To me, AO was just some unknowable thing who only existed so the gods themselves had a boss, and if it's machinations were unknowable to the gods (see tablet o fate smashing) then it would be double unknowable to mortals.

Ergo going forward if someone makes a snarky comment about telling people to worship AO I think we should give em some greentext about how they don't know that. Just because CrazyCatLady posted stuff from the wiki which may be true, it doesn't mean it's possible for any player in the world at all to have access to that information, particularly when the 'god of gods' deletes information about itself; it pulls it from your mind, you can't roll lore and remember things that 'don't exist.'



I posted that because that is what I know of Ao and likely what many others go on as well, and to show where I based my belief in regards to your question from. I never said it was possible for any player in the world to have access, nor should that have been implied. :P

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NinjaClarinet
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 18:09 PM 



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The whole story of the Mulhorandi-AO thing was told to my character by a Mulhorandi deity, which is why it was relayed to Meriptah, where I assume he included it in the recent sermon. Meri's player didn't make a mistake, but it's certainly okay to think of the whole thing as far-fetched from an IC point of view. I'm not really inclined to retcon a story my character has been repeating for four years, I was never told at the time of the event that the knowledge was somehow impermanent.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 19:40 PM 

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NinjaClarinet wrote:
The whole story of the Mulhorandi-AO thing was told to my character by a Mulhorandi deity, which is why it was relayed to Meriptah, where I assume he included it in the recent sermon. Meri's player didn't make a mistake, but it's certainly okay to think of the whole thing as far-fetched from an IC point of view. I'm not really inclined to retcon a story my character has been repeating for four years, I was never told at the time of the event that the knowledge was somehow impermanent.


seems odd that a deity just gave you forbidden lore they knew you would soon forget but i mean, what can I say? but if you say so, it's so. im not gonna argue with you here.

AO canonically erases information about itself so ill keep that in mind or out of mind next time AO comes up in casual conversation i guess.

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exquisitelyme
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 20:47 PM 

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AirPhforce wrote:
I'd think some level of enforcement here or at least giving people a 'heads up' when someone mentions AO that 'you shouldn't know that' might be in order.

To me, AO was just some unknowable thing who only existed so the gods themselves had a boss, and if it's machinations were unknowable to the gods (see tablet o fate smashing) then it would be double unknowable to mortals.

Ergo going forward if someone makes a snarky comment about telling people to worship AO I think we should give em some greentext about how they don't know that. Just because CrazyCatLady posted stuff from the wiki which may be true, it doesn't mean it's possible for any player in the world at all to have access to that information, particularly when the 'god of gods' deletes information about itself; it pulls it from your mind, you can't roll lore and remember things that 'don't exist.'



While I am all for DMs giving players a "nudge" if only to make them consider a little more the things they are saying, if the "you probably shouldnt know that" is given by other players, it can be very bad, IMHO. Also, if DMs were to enforce the "you shouldnt know that" they would spend a lot of time, sending Tells to many characters, because a lot of characters know probably way too much about many things, included but not limited to the workings of magic and magic items, cults, deities and their designs, etc.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 21:34 PM 

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exquisitelyme wrote:
AirPhforce wrote:
I'd think some level of enforcement here or at least giving people a 'heads up' when someone mentions AO that 'you shouldn't know that' might be in order.

To me, AO was just some unknowable thing who only existed so the gods themselves had a boss, and if it's machinations were unknowable to the gods (see tablet o fate smashing) then it would be double unknowable to mortals.

Ergo going forward if someone makes a snarky comment about telling people to worship AO I think we should give em some greentext about how they don't know that. Just because CrazyCatLady posted stuff from the wiki which may be true, it doesn't mean it's possible for any player in the world at all to have access to that information, particularly when the 'god of gods' deletes information about itself; it pulls it from your mind, you can't roll lore and remember things that 'don't exist.'



While I am all for DMs giving players a "nudge" if only to make them consider a little more the things they are saying, if the "you probably shouldnt know that" is given by other players, it can be very bad, IMHO. Also, if DMs were to enforce the "you shouldnt know that" they would spend a lot of time, sending Tells to many characters, because a lot of characters know probably way too much about many things, included but not limited to the workings of magic and magic items, cults, deities and their designs, etc.


yeah thats why i brought this up here instead of asking ppl ig how they knew about stuff, which would be bad.

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Estara
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 21:55 PM 



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It still comes across somewhat as policing people's RP here, but I understand your point. I think there has to be some understanding server-wide about how we've tried to step back to "realism" in FR lore, but that canon Amian history has a lot of non-canon and unrealistic things that have happened. It's a balance.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Feb 13 2016, 21:58 PM 

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Estara wrote:
It still comes across somewhat as policing people's RP here, but I understand your point. I think there has to be some understanding server-wide about how we've tried to step back to "realism" in FR lore, but that canon Amian history has a lot of non-canon and unrealistic things that have happened. It's a balance.


i apologize if I came off like that, not my intention, though reading my comments I see how that could be seen. let me edit em.

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Estara
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 14 2016, 0:18 AM 



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Np. I wasn't bothered. I commented more so that you might know to expect some other strange things that aren't quite "canon" to occur/be conversed on, and to encourage you to explore them in this same manner of balancing what's stated in lore and what's actually been played out by some DMs and players on Amia. For a continued dramatic example, my character knows multiple people who have interacted directly with Gods/Goddesses beyond NC. So there will be other weird breaks of lore and appropriateness in terms of how those went down and how they probably wouldn't REALLY go down, but who knows, since the Time of Troubles wasn't REALLY that long ago?

:idea:


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 14 2016, 5:44 AM 

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NinjaClarinet wrote:
The whole story of the Mulhorandi-AO thing was told to my character by a Mulhorandi deity, which is why it was relayed to Meriptah, where I assume he included it in the recent sermon. Meri's player didn't make a mistake, but it's certainly okay to think of the whole thing as far-fetched from an IC point of view. I'm not really inclined to retcon a story my character has been repeating for four years, I was never told at the time of the event that the knowledge was somehow impermanent.


All I can really do here is groan. There's no need to ever, as a DM, have relayed this info Ic, especially knowing AO's status in the setting.

n.b. this isn't yelling at anyone, just my own exasperation.

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Richard_Edmund
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 14 2016, 6:41 AM 

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Also the moment someone wonders how the Time of Troubles began will realize or conclude there's a supreme ruler of the pantheons, capable of immeasurable power - enough to banish 100+ powerful deities from their home realms (Where they are even most powerful), toss them into the Prime Material plane and make them mortal (albeit inhumanly strong mortals)

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 14 2016, 7:22 AM 

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That can't be the only conclusion. How would a person know the gods were "banished" unless a god specifically told them? I'm betting even some of the more honest and good gods would have been too prideful to admit they were just thrown out on their ass by a bigger entity. Also, it wasn't unheard of that gods made avatars and came to earth before. Unless you suddenly heard news that all these avatars had shown up at the same time around Faerun(and how would you with both divine and arcane magic being so wonky), wouldn't a regular Joe think your god had decided to come to earth for a bit? Or, if you were outside of their divine range, think that they had stopped answering prayers? Though, I guess 30 years in hindsight there might finally be a piecing together of all the things that were going on at that time. I've only really read the bits and pieces of the Avatar Series that concern Torm, Bane, Mystra, and Cyric, so someone feel free to correct me if I'm missing something.

Tangentially related, do we have any idea of what happened to other continents during the ToT? FR tends to focus on Faerun so much that it seems to forgets there's a whole lot more world out there. Like Kara Tur, "land of 8 Million Gods." Assuming the ToT happened there... there's a pretty big damn story that I don't think has ever even been hinted at.

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MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Mon, Feb 15 2016, 1:16 AM 

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Richard_Edmund wrote:
Also the moment someone wonders how the Time of Troubles began will realize or conclude there's a supreme ruler of the pantheons, capable of immeasurable power - enough to banish 100+ powerful deities from their home realms (Where they are even most powerful), toss them into the Prime Material plane and make them mortal (albeit inhumanly strong mortals)


Overgods, Ancient Brethren and Primal Forces are all things somewhat known to exist to planar society and while your typical Faerunian wouldn't know jack about them, one who regularly dabbles off plane is bound to not remain utterly Clueless if they got curious and dug a lot.

The gods didn't actually come down themselves, no matter what Greenwood writes (at least, not most of them). That's a silly and absurd thought. Faerun is a single-sphere backwater world and the idea that Ao is going to tell a god or pantheon who has followings in the 10s to 100s of millions (or more) all across the multiverse to actually come personally to his planet and risk actual death and they'd do it is flat-out insane. (For what, access to your one small hick-world/crystal sphere? Hahahaha, nope.)

Granted, a small fish who has no real following outside Realmspace (like Bane) would have no choice in the matter since being cut off from Toril means he most likely would die from lack of access to the only world he's known on, but most other gods with followings elsewhere in the multiverse (like racial pantheons, Oghma, Tyr, Loviatar, etc) would go "hrm, lose the belief of one little prime world... or actually die... Yeah... No thanks." Gods are not beholden to overdeities whatsoever. Overdeities only lord over their crystal spheres and access to followers within them and if gods don't wish to follow a particular overgod's decrees, they're free to tell the overgod to pound sand and withdraw from the crystal sphere (re: Dragonlance). So obviously the ToT was more or less an avatar-only game to maintain access to influence on Realmspace's crystal sphere unless you're a single-sphere deity like Waukeen or Torm. (Greenwood doesn't understand how gods and planes work.) Single-sphere gods like Waukeen or Bane might be forced to actually put all their chips on the table, but to a god like Lolth has a bajillion folllowers giving her yummy belief from all over the multiverse outside of Realmspace? She'd give Ao the finger if he gave her the "come risk actual death or lose access to my sphere" ultimatum.

As for Ao wanting to be forgotten? There's nothing to suggest he's actually taking any action for that end himself. Faiths and Pantheons merely suggests mortals are losing interest in something that clearly has no interest in them, not that Ao is actively doing anything to be forgotten. Given he's an overgod, he could clearly just erase knowledge of himself instantaneously from mortal minds if he cared to do so, much lesser gods have done it several times after all.

I do have to wonder how any mortal even knows about Ao though. It's not like mortals ever actually witnessed him. I suppose a chatty proxy on Toril might have spilled the beans during the avatar crisis, but that seems a stretch. I haven't read the Avatar trilogy since it came out and probably should again.

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Last edited by MightNMagic on Mon, Feb 15 2016, 1:21 AM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, Feb 15 2016, 1:21 AM 

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Quote:
The gods didn't actually come down themselves, no matter what Greenwood writes (at least, not most of them). That's a silly and absurd thought. Faerun is a single-sphere backwater world and the idea that Ao is going to tell a god or pantheon who has followings in the 10s to 100s of millions (or more) all across the multiverse to actually come personally to his planet and risk actual death and they'd do it is flat-out insane. (For what, access to your one small hick-world/crystal sphere? Hahahaha, nope.)



So the time of troubles didn't happen? What?

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MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Mon, Feb 15 2016, 1:23 AM 

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They might have juiced up an avatar and risked losing access to the crystal sphere if that avatar "died," but there's no way in the Nine Hells the non-single sphere deities even left their planar realms and risked actual death. That's silly.

(To learn more about deities and how they work, I suggest reading "On Hallowed Ground," an excellent Planescape book.)

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Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, Feb 15 2016, 3:15 AM 

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MightNMagic wrote:
They might have juiced up an avatar and risked losing access to the crystal sphere if that avatar "died," but there's no way in the Nine Hells the non-single sphere deities even left their planar realms and risked actual death. That's silly.

(To learn more about deities and how they work, I suggest reading "On Hallowed Ground," an excellent Planescape book.)


So is Myrkul still the god of death then

did that shit just not happen

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Feb 15 2016, 3:19 AM 

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Um... no, the actual divinities were thrown to Faerun.

Most of the Faerunian pantheons and powers have no aspects outside of Faerun, and those that do have completely separate entities across the Spheres. Lolth's presence on Faerun and Greyhawk are completely separate entities, as is Bahamut and Tiamat's for Eberron and so forth. Alothough they are the same named entity, they are not explicitly the same entity, otherwise Lolth would be the equivalent of Divine Rank 30ish simply because she exists in ever setting that Drow exist in. That's obviously not true here.

Planescape is not Faerun, even though we transplant much of the cosmology here.

You comments on the ToT are patently wrong in the setting and the server lore. Every god is absolutely beholden to AO in the setting, just as AO himself is beholden to the Light above him.

Quote:
(Greenwood doesn't understand how gods and planes work.)


This is an utterly subjective comment: Ed Greenwood is the final authority on how everything in the entire Forgotten Realms works. It doesn't matter what that Planescape book says, it really doesn't no matter how much Planescape Torment made everyone love the setting, sorry. They are two different settings.

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Dev Disco
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 8:40 AM 

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LetumLux wrote:
As an aside, we should probably just remove the Ring of Ao already. I know it's cute Disco-ism, but he's Dutch. So...

I don't care for rings. Somebody just made the whole batch once, and probably didn't like empty spots. It's got nothing to do with me. I am innocent!

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 10:41 AM 

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I am compelled to believe your innocence due to a bias for avians. You win this round.

Also it's good to see you again!


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 25 2016, 17:13 PM 



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Uhm... my character just picke up a book in a forgotten treasure chest. Since I have a german version of this game, translations might be screwed up. It is called “The time of troubles“ and is a base nwn item. So not custom amia content, and it refers to Ao in the first line of its description... could this book be removed from the loot drops if Ao is not known now?


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 05 2016, 17:50 PM 



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Alright.
There are some problems with this book...

First of all, I picked it up in a abandoned, presumably old, ruin, so there are two things my character might think about it: Either it is forgotten knowledge (or just common knowledge), which would clash with Commie's statement of "Ao actively remov[ing] information about him from existing". The other option would be for a character to disregard it as nonsense, just as we today would disregard medeval "scientific" theories (for example Humorism).

While this might happen, my character might just as well believe it, since the notion of an overgod is plausible, or there is the question "why are gods there". Now it was said: "the assumption that some mortals are 98% sure there's an overgod and can somehow name it. Nobody knows that." And then that you can prove the existence of the other gods via gate spells, but not Ao. Now, real life religion is different from FR religion, but people believe in god(s) IRL, even though there is not much direct proof of them. My character is as, or even more intelligent than me (people say a 10 is the score of a commoner, I would consider myself a commoner, my 16 Int char therefore should be even more intelligent than me, right). So why wouldn't he be allowed to believe in an overgod? Yes, by that logic he would not have a name for him, but when stumbling over a book which says Ao is the overgod... In that case, he would likely end up in the wall of faithless, but he wouldn't believe that.

Next, according to Commie's statement, the book should not even exist in the first place, or there should be a comical blank space about why the gods came down. Kind of like this: I would absolutely love this!
The Time of Troubles was precipitated by

walk among their followers on the earth. The immediate effects of this edict were threefold. First, divine magic (spells granted to clerics by their patron deities) ceased to function altogether. [...]
from: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Time_of_Troubles

Also, since my character knows about Ao from this, wouldn't according to the rules only a DM be allowed to "play Ao" and erase my memories of Ao? I mean players can't force me to roleplay the way they want, can they? Also, even a DM policing this would be weird, since the server requirements are as far as I know, only these:
Quote:
So, you are sure you want to play Amia. Grab a copy of Neverwinter Nights (NWN) and its 2 expansions, Shadows of Undrentide and Hordes of the Underdark. Make sure you update it to version 1.69. My suggestion is to download the Critical Rebuild and run it if you update a fresh Neverwinter Nights installation.

You also need our HAK pack. You can find it here.
So, an unsespecting person who never has read any sourcebooks, which, again, is not a requirement for this server, would have no way of knowing that Ao does not want to be known. I mean, it seems like me and many people who posted before me do not know that particular information about Ao, and I don't think anyone told them to leave the server... So this whole policing the RP seems weird with inconsistencies. As far as I understood the PnP spells/abilities rules, anything in the game is considered canon, anything else is more or less not enforced, as long as it does not conflict with the in game evidence... Oh wait, the statement that Ao wipes books does conflict with In-game evidence, you say? Then I guess one should be declared "canon" and the other one as "not canon"...

In a way, the lawful evil side of me wants to try to start to build an Ao-following faction, just to spite everyone in here :) And before you ask, I know I am a big jerk.


 
      
Bernardascoffee
 
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 16 2016, 4:56 AM 

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I'd like to bump this topic, I'm actually excited to hear the answer to this poor soul's question. I think, if possible, an Ao-following character would be interesting, to say the least.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 16 2016, 5:10 AM 

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Bernardascoffee wrote:
I'd like to bump this topic, I'm actually excited to hear the answer to this poor soul's question. I think, if possible, an Ao-following character would be interesting, to say the least.


TormakSaber wrote:
No, AO actively removes information about him from existing. PCs who talk about AO should be held in equal amounts of skepticism and derision, because there is literally no proof he exists, nothing he ever did can be found our or attributed to him IC, and nothing gets around this because he is The Overgod. Cults to AO fall out of existence in a matter of years and sometimes months as the group forgets what evern brought them together in the first place. Scholars misplace books, forget lore, and thing sjust fade.

In fact most people dont even know AO had anything to *do* with the Time of troubles... nor do most people know literally anything about wht cause dit or why, other than that holy shit the gods walked the earth.

For a more specific example: a mulhorandi absolutely would not be able to say "AO broke the Imaskari barrier that freed my gods." That sort of information is not known, and does not exist to be known.


I also take that nwn vanilla book (which I find copes of all over) with a grain of salt and vendor it after you ic forget whats in it. As that's what AO does.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 16 2016, 18:13 PM 



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AO *would* (at least as far as I can say what a god does and says) actively remove the books, and every single forgotten treasure has a book in it.


 
      
KairaKitty
 
PostPosted: Sat, Sep 17 2016, 2:06 AM 

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Unless I've somehow missed it there's nothing to suggest in any source books that Ao actively removes information about himself from the realms. I would argue it'd be near impossible, too, to say that any PCs couldn't possibly have any knowledge of him when any adult elf has been alive for the Time of Troubles (as stated it wasn't that long ago). It's extremely possible to have a PC who was at that place at that exact time to hear him personally when he spoke. There are plenty of PCs in the first place who met or had interactions with various gods through DM events during their time on the server.

Quote:
Ao has almost no direct interaction with Toril and would largely be forgotten by the mortals if not for his role in the Time of Troubles. Already, cults founded in Ao's name only a decade ago die out and Ao's name disappears from written records, suggesting that the Overgod has no wish to be known by the mortals of Toril.- Faiths and Pantheons

If the reason his name disappeared from all written records (at the time?) is due to him erasing it then that just further ensures he'll be forgotten about without bothering to actively monitor every incidence of someone remembering him. He probably only bothers when a larger group of "believers" starts to congregate to draw his attention. Without any mention of his name and his refusal to grant power to anyone, ever, that basically ensures history will never be able to prove his existence. I don't think he was terribly known in the first place as any of his worshipers were still just implied to be considered cults.

I just think ruling he actively removes any information about himself existing is going to unnecessary lengths when that isn't stated anywhere. Please correct me if I'm wrong and that statement is made somewhere, I haven't exactly read all the source books or novels out there 'cos there is a thooousand.

CrazyCatLady wrote:
I would not say he worked to not have people from knowing him, but more that he had no need of faithful followers.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sat, Sep 17 2016, 2:12 AM 

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AO is the overgod and did not manifest during the ToT. He does not need worshippers to exist. He's an analog for the DM (or ed greenwood), and he's not subject to the same rules the other gods are.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Sep 17 2016, 2:13 AM 

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KairaKitty wrote:
I would argue it'd be near impossible, too, to say that any PCs couldn't possibly have any knowledge of him when any adult elf has been alive for the Time of Troubles (as stated it wasn't that long ago). It's extremely possible to have a PC who was at that place at that exact time to hear him personally when he spoke.


That would be quite a boast.

A PC talking about AO casually doesn't make a whole lot of sense. AO is above gods, and the gods are above PC's. It would be like a cockroach recanting tales about watching Mystra get cut down by Helm. It doesn't follow any logic.

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KairaKitty
 
PostPosted: Sat, Sep 17 2016, 4:08 AM 

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I did know that Ao doesn't need followers. I assumed that's what CrazyCatLady was saying hence the quote. I was also wrong, turns out he didn't just speak but manifested physically... according to the books, anyways. Amia DMs always have the last word on anything that's happened. Warning: spoilers!

Quote:
Starting in Waterdeep at the close of the Time of Troubles, a new
cult arose, devoted to the overgodly force called Ao. The overgod
appeared at the peak of Waterdeep mountain at the end of the Time of
Troubles, at which point he claimed to be the creator of the gods
(though not of the Realms themselves). He confirmed the godly power
held by Midnight/Mystra and invested the former power and
responsibilities of the Three Dead Gods into Cyric. Then he removed the
barrier preventing the deities from returning to the Outer Planes,
charging these gods to be more responsive to their worshipers and tying
their power more closely with that of their living followers.
The cult of Ao receives no spells or special powers, and so cannot
be considered a true faith in a land where the gods prove their good
intentions by delivering on their promises.

Quote off here (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?T ... hichpage=1) that originates from (an extinct?) webpage containing Ao info that summarizes Ao's ToT events and the books are supported by Ed Greenwood. I could go quote off the book the exact manifestation of his avatar at Waterdeep.

Quote:
*He was present during the Time of Troubles, yet since that time has retreated to his home place, dimension, or existence, and has not responded to mortal entreaties since (though one paladin claims to have seen him in a vision). While the inhabitants of the Realms are aware of Ao's existence, there is little reason for them to call on him or seek his words of wisdom, which would be unforthcoming in any case.

*It is doubtful he even listens to mortal prayers or pleas.

*Ao, when he appears (as he's only done so once), takes on a form that is 12 feet tall.

*Immediately following the Time of Troubles, cults grew up that worshiped Ao directly. These cults appeared suddenly and then evaporated just as quickly when it became clear that Ao did not answer prayers, offer protection, or grant spells to faith priests. Direct worship of Ao has subsided. (Goes into more details about Ao's few followers after this)
-Faith and Avatars, 2e to 3e lore

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 18 2016, 19:40 PM 

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I stand corrected then - it was my interpretation that AO's "manifestation" was metaphysical and only occured back in the godly realms, and not in the physical Prime.

I think, though, it doesn't change what comes after - he seems pretty intent on making sure he's left well enough alone, which is why it's odd to me that he'd even physically manifest to begin with.

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666WaysToHell
 
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 18 2016, 22:22 PM 

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Why not just make it that Ao is the mortally-given name for the cosmos in a rather poor attempt at said mortals trying to understand what kind of cosmological power even keeps the gods in their respective places!

Hell, we do it in real life, Why not in game!

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ucfgoose
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 27 2016, 0:55 AM 

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Ao himself has a boss, at least if we treat Denning's Waterdeep as canon and seeing as that book describes the ascension to godhood for Kelemvor, Midnight, and Cyric it seems like it is. One could assume that his boss is the DM himself, Ed Greenwood, or the collective consciousness of all D&D players.

Ao closed his eyes and blanked his mind. Soon, he fell within himself and entered the place before time, the time at the edge of the universe, where millions of millions of assignments like his began and ended.

A luminous presence greeted him, enveloping his energies within its own. It was both a warm and a cold entity, forgiving and harsh. "And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?" The voice was at once both gentle and admonishing.

"They have restored the balance, Master. The Realms are once again secure."

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