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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sun, Dec 04 2016, 21:43 PM 



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Hello everyone,
I'm a bit unsure about the word Shadow, and the types of magic bound to them. Most of this information is based on the FRWikia, so please tell me if I'm straying from Amia canon. I will list these as statements, but I do not make any claims of the truth, so don't kill me for my lack of ideas how to ask this.

Also, if anyone wants to tell me which sourcebooks talk about this stuff, please. I'd love that.

Shadow Weave: Like the Weave, except controlled by Shar, meaning you have to make a deal with her to use it and stay sane. Any normal Arcane Casters can use this. (Not sure about divine. Can they? Most likely Clerics of Shar) Or does everyone go slightly insane when using it? Needs request. Not tied to Shadow Plane at all.

Shadow Magic: Special type of magic, which uses the power of the Shadow Plane. This is often used by Bards, Assassins. Like Shadow Weave, this needs a request. Works weirdly on Shadow Plane.
Is this also how Shadowdancers do their stuff? It's powered by 'Shadowstuff'. What is that?

How does light work with either of these. Can they cast the light spell?

Again. I am not claiming any truth in here, and are rather asking for clarification.

Thanks for any answers, and sorry for the lack of clear thought or organisation in here...

Robbi320


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Dec 04 2016, 22:01 PM 

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Divine casters for Shar can use either the normal weave or shadow weave but have to pick. Unless I am mistaken arcanists can do the same as they are divorced from morality by nature.

However it is generally assumed that this is a really bad idea to do and that everyone just uses the normal weave unless they ran it past a dm first for a proper explanation of what the shadow weave is and what it's limits and restrictions are.

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Anatida
 
PostPosted: Sun, Dec 04 2016, 22:54 PM 

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robbi320 wrote:
Shadow Magic: Special type of magic, which uses the power of the Shadow Plane. [1] This is often used by Bards, Assassins. Like Shadow Weave, [1.2] this needs a request. [1.3]Works weirdly on Shadow Plane.

[2] Is this also how Shadowdancers do their stuff? It's powered by 'Shadowstuff'. [2.1] What is that?

[1] : I'm unaware of how bards would use this type of Shadow Magic (good name, can't think of what else we call it except "Shadow Energy"). I /think/ Assassins get their special abilities and spells from it, though I can't say how. I don't know that lore at all.

    [1.2] : I am unaware that this needs a request, though you do have to put in the IC effort to learn it. If you don't feel like the DMs observe you enough, start a PC Story where you can chronicle your journey & possibly screenshots.

    [1.3] : It is stronger on the Shadowplane because you have easier access. I think of it like spells with the shadow descriptor are stronger on the Shadowplane, where spells with a light descriptor are weaker.

[2] : Yes

    [2.1] : We just refer to it interchangeably as Shadow, Shadowstuff, Shadow Energy. Like you would consider the weave has a sort of energy that arcanists draw magic from; So the Plane of Shadow has a unique energy that Shadowdancers & Assassins draw for their own use.

[Sources] :

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sun, Dec 04 2016, 23:32 PM 



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Ok. Thanks to both of you.

[1.2] I had assumed, like the description of Shadovar in the Subraces, since it is non-standard, and works differently, you need a request to play that, partly just to prove you researched your stuff.

And the Bards: Most places I read, it said Shadowcasters, Bards and Assassins, and that Bard make up the biggest part of it. But I'll have a look at the sourcebooks. Thanks for that too!


 
      
Anatida
 
PostPosted: Sun, Dec 04 2016, 23:46 PM 

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robbi320 wrote:
Ok. Thanks to both of you.

[1.2] I had assumed, like the description of Shadovar in the Subraces, since it is non-standard, and works differently, you need a request to play that, partly just to prove you researched your stuff.

And the Bards: Most places I read, it said Shadowcasters, Bards and Assassins, and that Bard make up the biggest part of it. But I'll have a look at the sourcebooks. Thanks for that too!


I believe, that all reference to Shadowcasters mean arcanists that use the Shadow Weave. I may be mistaken, but this was my interpretation during IC events. As you explained, "Shadow energy" for 'dancers that comes from the Plane of Shadow, is not the arcane Shadow Weave. Shadowcasters could also mean those that are really good at spells with the shadow descriptor? In that case, it could have no association with either the Shadow Weave, or the Plane of Shadow energy that shadowdancers use.

I suppose, in summary, what I mean is some words are interchangeable, and some are not. I think you need to define what you mean by a Shadowcaster. My interpretation of what you quoted from lore would be a Bard that uses the Shadow Weave to cast spells.

Now, if ya want to really confuse things... I learned much of what I know from a Bard that was a Shadowcaster and a Shadowdancer. Untangle that one. :twisted:

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 05 2016, 0:35 AM 

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Commie wrote:
Divine casters for Shar can use either the normal weave or shadow weave but have to pick. Unless I am mistaken arcanists can do the same as they are divorced from morality by nature.

However it is generally assumed that this is a really bad idea to do and that everyone just uses the normal weave unless they ran it past a dm first for a proper explanation of what the shadow weave is and what it's limits and restrictions are.


All Shadow Weave use needs to be requested because there are very specific things about it that need to be followed through with and respected.

Divine casters of Shar can use either the Shadow or the Normal Weave. I imagine it's a lot easier for a Sharran to hide who they are when they're using their foe's magic. Same deal for Arcane casters - they can use either Weave. They do need to make a decision and stick to it though, you don't just wake up and say "I'm going to use the Shadow Weave today", it's an actual defining choice you make and stick with barring extreme circumstances.

Quote:
[1] : I'm unaware of how bards would use this type of Shadow Magic (good name, can't think of what else we call it except "Shadow Energy"). I /think/ Assassins get their special abilities and spells from it, though I can't say how. I don't know that lore at all.


Bards can use the Shadow Weave if Shar allows. Assassins are spontaneous Arcane casters and can use the Shadow Weave if Shar allows.

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[1.2] : I am unaware that this needs a request, though you do have to put in the IC effort to learn it. If you don't feel like the DMs observe you enough, start a PC Story where you can chronicle your journey & possibly screenshots.


This, and the above, rather than the Weave, may actually be referring to Shadowcasting from the Tome of Magic 3.5 book. This is entirely its own magicv system in the books and would require a request due to the nature of the casting and its use. While there's no FR ruling on it, I think it would be safe to say that Shadowcasting must, by necessity, utilize the Shadow Weave due to its origin points.

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[1.3] : It is stronger on the Shadowplane because you have easier access. I think of it like spells with the shadow descriptor are stronger on the Shadowplane, where spells with a light descriptor are weaker.


Yep.

Quote:
[2] : Yes

[2.1] : We just refer to it interchangeably as Shadow, Shadowstuff, Shadow Energy. Like you would consider the weave has a sort of energy that arcanists draw magic from; So the Plane of Shadow has a unique energy that Shadowdancers & Assassins draw for their own use.


Assassins don't necessarily need to use the same source as Shadowdancers, and in all likelihood, unless they're SD/Assassins, they very likely don't. They're just normal casters.

Quote:
[1.2] I had assumed, like the description of Shadovar in the Subraces, since it is non-standard, and works differently, you need a request to play that, partly just to prove you researched your stuff.


Shadovar need a request due to the nature of the race - they're not just "shadow-touched", they're from the City of Shade, Thultantarr, and have a lot of baggage that comes along with them, especially in the Amian setting.

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I believe, that all reference to Shadowcasters mean arcanists that use the Shadow Weave.


Not necessarily true. Shadowcasting is from 3.5 Tome of Magic and is an alternate magic system. While it's a fair assumption that Shadowcasting probably uses the Shadow Weave almost exclusively (one I'd agree with) it's not fair to just label them "arcanists" if we're talking on an OOC setting level - like Psionics, it's its own discrete casting system with its own rules and bounds and limitations.

Quote:
As you explained, "Shadow energy" for 'dancers that comes from the Plane of Shadow, is not the arcane Shadow Weave


I would disagree. Supernatural energy must by default be sourced from the Weave or the Shadow Weave, if it's not Ki, Psionic, or Extraordinary. That it comes from the Plane of Shadow doesn't necessarily stop that - a Shadowdancer in an Anti-Magic Field has all their supernatural abilities such as HIPS disabled, for example. Even their Darkvision is Supernatural and turns off. While a Shadow Dancer may (and may be much more likely, to boot) source their power from the Shadow Weave, at the end of the day that Shadowstuff eventually has a lineage that will trace back to one of the two Weaves, regardless of the IC ramifications or justifications or lore of the setting.

Quote:
I think you need to define what you mean by a Shadowcaster. My interpretation of what you quoted from lore would be a Bard that uses the Shadow Weave to cast spells.


Yeahy, the definition is important. Much of my post's work here comes from the conclusion that he's referring to the Tome of Magic Shadowcaster, although much of the information is applciable on a broader basis.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 05 2016, 9:12 AM 



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I quickly looked over Shadow Magic in Tome of Magic. To me, it seems almost like it also does not use either Weave. Mainly the way it says that it gets power from Shadow, and how, unlike Arcane magic and gods, Shadow is eternal. Though that also kind of an IC thing to say...

Then it also says that some Shadowcasters (Class) use the Shadow Weave... But it makes it sound like it is a rare thing to know about either, much less both. But that goes into interpretation.
And the lack of FR details makes it even more difficult...

I'm going to think about this a bit, and see if I can find any other good references.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 05 2016, 9:16 AM 

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robbi320 wrote:
I quickly looked over Shadow Magic in Tome of Magic. To me, it seems almost like it also does not use either Weave. Mainly the way it says that it gets power from Shadow, and how, unlike Arcane magic and gods, Shadow is eternal. Though that also kind of an IC thing to say...

Then it also says that some Shadowcasters (Class) use the Shadow Weave... But it makes it sound like it is a rare thing to know about either, much less both. But that goes into interpretation.
And the lack of FR details makes it even more difficult...

I'm going to think about this a bit, and see if I can find any other good references.


iirc wizards never answered that question.

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SamTheGiantSlayer
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 05 2016, 10:19 AM 

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robbi320 wrote:
I quickly looked over Shadow Magic in Tome of Magic. To me, it seems almost like it also does not use either Weave. Mainly the way it says that it gets power from Shadow, and how, unlike Arcane magic and gods, Shadow is eternal. Though that also kind of an IC thing to say...

Then it also says that some Shadowcasters (Class) use the Shadow Weave... But it makes it sound like it is a rare thing to know about either, much less both. But that goes into interpretation.
And the lack of FR details makes it even more difficult...

I'm going to think about this a bit, and see if I can find any other good references.


AFAIK, the Shadow Weave is indeed supposed to be a more 'rare' thing to know about in general, or at the very least actually knowing how to achieve access to it. I'm pretty sure, but I could be wrong. Alas .. we know how rare things are the opposite, on Amia. Doesn't make it 'lore appropriate', tho.

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Richard_Edmund
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 05 2016, 11:23 AM 

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Isn't there a thing about using the Shadow Weave that you go mad if you use it as a non-Sharran?

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Tarnus
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 05 2016, 11:53 AM 

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You permanently loose a piece of your mind. (And mechanically, -2 wisdom. Though you have to have at least 13 wis to take the feat)

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The Great Equalizer
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 05 2016, 15:00 PM 

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Shadow magic is entirely separate from the Shadow Weave.

Shadowcasters use Shadow magic, not shadow weave magic. The confusing here seems to be the line about Toril and the fact that the FR setting has shadow weave magic.

However what it actually says is that the shadow weave is a perfect example of one of the core concepts at play in Shadow magic, the "balance" aspect, due to this reason many shadow magic users also have a natural affinity for the use of the Shadow Weave in FR.

Weave is the permeating force that powers all things in FR. Shadow weave is the lesser ”balance" of that force. As such either could be used to power shadow magic in theory but as the magic of the plane of shadows is still weave fueled innately and that is where innate shadow magic users draw their power from assuming that all or even most Shadow Magic users are Shadow Weave users is rather foolish.

Shadow magic users might more regularly become shadow weave users due to already having had to learn to harness to powers of a similar force but that isn't saying that the shadow weave IS that force.

Mistakes of cause and effect for what lore means to what here it seems not helped by the fact the The shadow weave should have just been called the Anti-weave and saved everyone the pain in the ass of needing to clarify this continued confusion.


Last edited by The Great Equalizer on Tue, Dec 06 2016, 1:37 AM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 05 2016, 19:03 PM 

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Yeah, I thought it was pretty known that ToM was incorrect in its linking of Shadowcasting and Shadow Weave. And personally, if I could change lore, it was be assumed that any divine servant of Shar is using the Shadow Weave. Between Sharrans hating the Weave and Mystra apparently being able to completely withhold magic from even masses of people, it seems like the most sensible option. Yes there's the matter of subterfuge, but knowledge of the Shadow Weave is so clandestine that Weave users already take penalties when identifying, resisting, or stripping spells cast by the Shadow Weave. I think there's even a DC check for anyone to be able of notice you're casting from it.

As far as supernatural abilities go, though I've seldom thought about it, they could be sourced from either more than likely. I wouldn't go so far to say any special abilities are more easily or likely sourced from one or the other, just because the number of Weave users absolutely dwarfs the number of shadow weave users. You've got Shade as the only real, steady fixture of Shadow Weave users over the centuries. Everyone beyond that has been individually tempted or brokered into using it. You can, perhapso, be unwittingly led down a path to using it as I recall one NPC being led in lore but it's not something you stumble into most of the time.

From a lore perspective, I hesitate to call the Shadow Weave the "anti weave." Everything, the whole of all supernatural powers and abilities(barring ki and psi) can and usually is sourced from the Weave. It's not like it favors one sort of magic over any other and it's not like the regular Weave is the "Light" Weave to the Shadow. By whatever cosmic scale existed in the formation of the Realms, the Weave is said to have come first, and Shar, jealous of her ...neice... daughter... sister thing's creation made a dark mirror to it. But it's hard to really call it a dark mirror, when by and large most of the evil magical stuff in the realms happens through the regular Weave, just as most of the good magic does too. I am a bit biased for a number of reasons, but for the most part, the Shadow Weave is a kind of Shar's version of the Bender meme. I'll build my own Weave, with blackjack and hookers!

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The Great Equalizer
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 06 2016, 0:13 AM 

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Good points.

Also The shadow Weave is more so named for being essentially a shadow of the weave.

To describe the weaves process it is as the name implies like a net cast over all things on all planes, from this net energy is drawn and reformed giving power to magic in all forms both divine and arcane being sourced from this energy.

However this net isn't perfect, there are gaps where it is weaker and so places that retain their potential energy. These gaps of untapped energy is what became known as the shadow weave. (Being the gaps between it is theorized that its maximum power is capped by being directly inverse to the weave's which is the primary force and thus my liking of calling it the anti weave).

As such it is unique in being one of the only means of magical feats that is not drawn from the weave in ANY way, in fact the only other I can think of off the top of my head really being psionics (Ki).


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 06 2016, 2:15 AM 

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Quote:
Shadow magic is entirely separate from the Shadow Weave.


All magic, unless explicitly stated, (ki, psionics) must derive from one of the two Weaves. Without a DM ruling, Shadowcasting must therefore come from one of them.

Quote:
The shadow weave should have just been called the Anti-weave and saved everyone the pain in the ass of needing to clarify this continued confusion.


It's hella not the Anti-Weave though.

Quote:
Yeah, I thought it was pretty known that ToM was incorrect in its linking of Shadowcasting and Shadow Weave


Eh. I disagree entirely. If only because thematically they run so close together it makes little sense to make an arbitrary distinction. The idea of "mysteries" and "paths" and the power of shadow runs so close to the shadow weave, that unlike Psionics and Ki there's, IMO, little reason to make a distinction, especially as the Shadow Plane is Shar's divine realm anyways.

Quote:
And personally, if I could change lore, it was be assumed that any divine servant of Shar is using the Shadow Weave.


No way. It's not forced. This is actual canon. Shar regularly allows her servants to tap the normal Weave 1: because then she can see how it works so she can better try to steal it, and 2: so they can better blend in and hide themselves. It makes perfect sense.

Quote:
Between Sharrans hating the Weave


They only hate it insomuch as they covet it.

Quote:
However this net isn't perfect, there are gaps where it is weaker and so places that retain their potential energy. These gaps of untapped energy is what became known as the shadow weave. (Being the gaps between it is theorized that its maximum power is capped by being directly inverse to the weave's which is the primary force and thus my liking of calling it the anti weave).


The Shadow weave is the holes in the weave but is not necessarily the "Anti-weave". There's some connotations there that don't necessarily apply. They are, together, the Grand Tapestry. Shar covets both, as do her worshippers. Destruction isn't the end goal (except for all but the most nihilistic), but covetous gain and acquisition, and then blissful oneness with the Void.

Quote:
As such it is unique in being one of the only means of magical feats that is not drawn from the weave in ANY way, in fact the only other I can think of off the top of my head really being psionics (Ki).


Ki is not Psionics, that's a 4th edition thing- though both are non-Weave magic sources, they aren't the same thing.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 06 2016, 6:04 AM 

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Quote:
Eh. I disagree entirely. If only because thematically they run so close together it makes little sense to make an arbitrary distinction. The idea of "mysteries" and "paths" and the power of shadow runs so close to the shadow weave, that unlike Psionics and Ki there's, IMO, little reason to make a distinction, especially as the Shadow Plane is Shar's divine realm anyways.


It's a matter of opinion to a certain point indeed, but it's my preference that Shadow Casting stay waaaay the fuck away from anything dealing with the Shadow Weave because people often then link things like the Shadow Variants to the Shadow Weave. Tome of Magic calls Shadow-based Illusions(which would be the Variants in PnP) a "lesser" form of Shadow Magic, and indeed says Shadow Magic is the same thing as Shadow Weave Magic(see below quote). And that makes no sense in our setting, because it's binary: if you use one, you cannot use the other. It's not necessarily that linking Shadow Casters as a class and Shadow Weave that is a problem(you just make it into another class at that point, but), it's the implication that it links what Shadow Casters do(Shadow Magic) directly to the Shadow Weave(which breaks most lore for how the dichotomy works).

The blurb at the bottom of 110 makes it seem like in FR that Shadow Casters draw from the Shadow Weave, rather than the Shadow Plane.
Quote:
This is the Shadow Weave, a network of "negative" magic. Those few who truly understand it, such as shadow magic casters, use the Shadow Weave as a source for their power, drawing on it the way shadow mages of other worlds draw directly from the Plane of Shadow.


And again, casting from the Shadow Weave is a completely different thing for us. What it describes as a Shadow Caster is a class we already have as a Shadow Adept. It's way too messy. It's just much easier to say "no, disregard that, a Shadow Caster pulls from the Shadow Plane and uses shadowstuff just like any other setting. But indeed some Shadow Casters are Shadow Weave users."

Also, regarding blending in, the Insidious Magic feat is there specifically so Shadow Weave users can go unnoticed. Not that Shar isn't wily enough to still use Weave users to infiltrate places, but the mechanics are already there for not having to worry about it. And I know it's 4e, may it's name be mud in our mouths, but for someone who covets the Weave, she and Cyric sure did a good job of killing the hell out of it with the hopes that the Shadow Weave would be unaffected. Maybe she gave up trying to copy it at that point and decided if she couldn't have it, no one could.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 06 2016, 6:57 AM 

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I mean, you're quoting books that say FR states Shadowcasters and Shadow-Magic is the Shadow Weave, by your own statement.

Not much of an argument to be had here anymore, I don't think.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 06 2016, 7:25 AM 

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Not FR, a paragraph blurb from a generic D&D book that apparently didn't take the time to reason what sort of problems that creates. And I just spelled out that even though it says that, how that couldn't be, without instantly saying that people who use the Variants are also using the Shadow Weave, which is totally not true in our setting.

I mean, dude, you were even in this thread a few years ago where everyone basically came to the same conclusion, most importantly the former DM and player that dealt with a majority of our Shadow setting and lore.

ToM re: Shadow Magic Users wrote:
Those few who truly understand it, such as shadow magic casters, use the Shadow Weave as a source for their power...


Mathan re: Shadow Magic Users wrote:
They use the "Shadowstuff" as the lore calls it. This is not Shadow Weave but rather another magical force that just exists there.


Whatever the book says, Shadow Magic not being Shadow Weave Magic has been our lore for ages.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 06 2016, 7:58 AM 

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I also freely admit I had much less of a grasp on the lore 4 years ago as well. Magic has to source from Weave or Shadow Weave, and it seems really redundant to have "shadowstuff" as its own mechanical susbystem of magic when Shadow Weave and standard Weave serves the same purpose (and standard Weave and Shadowweave spells even use it), and the stuff comes from Shar's Divine Realm.

SD stuff still has to source from the Weave or Shadow Weave. DM events have supported this conclusion, and FR canon supports this conclusion, regardless of what PCs believe and do and work methods with on an IC level. It shuts off in an Anti-Magic field - that's another strong piece of evidence to show that it's "basic magic" and stems from the Weave(s).

"Shadow Magic" is just Shadowcasting, from Tome of Magic. That's all. Shadow Adept is a PRC utilizing standard arcane or divine casting practices utilizing the Shadow Weave. Shadowcasting is another thing entirely. It's the difference between Wizardry and Wu-Jen.

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The Great Equalizer
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 07 2016, 1:27 AM 

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Reversed your order in the last bit there I think.
"Shadowcasting" is one of the ways to utilize "Shadow Magic".

"Shadow Magic" is a Magical type of casting (Magical in that it uses the Weave as its source of power and so will fail in dead-magic, like a divine or arcane magic).

So really it makes more sense to look at it as an alternative/overlap method with Divine and Arcane casting rather than a subset of either of those two.



Psionics and Ki both essentially bypass the weave, by basically doing what its implied the weave does, simply directly. Tapping into the ambient energies in and around themselves in the world (the power that its implied the weave taps to draw power from).

Psionics and Ki are certainly their own things but rather semantics as the point was that they are basically as akin to each other as Divine and Arcane casting are.






On the topic of the Weave and Shadow-weave More directly. Point of the whole anti-weave (maybe Nega-Weave? Reverse-Weave?) is that weave and shadow-weave are inversely correlated forces, and in Strengthening one you also weaken the other (Why dead magic zones don't effect the shadow-weave since it is actually just an area severed from the weave) they are two parts of a system that wax and wane in response to each other.



Edit: Actually getting into the effects that Deadmagic and Antimagic have on all the powers normally also tells a lot about their sourcing of power.
Weave Based magic (arcane, divine, and shadowmagic) fails in both. Shadow-weave magic works in DM but not AM fields (Psionics and Ki also work in DM but not AM).

So really if it fails in DM that means that it is Weave powered. Antimagic fields are actually even more so anti-energy usage fields as it cuts the ability of anyone in it to use any form of magic like energy.


 
      
MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 15 2016, 5:48 AM 

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The Great Equalizer wrote:
Psionics and Ki both essentially bypass the weave, by basically doing what its implied the weave does, simply directly. Tapping into the ambient energies in and around themselves in the world (the power that its implied the weave taps to draw power from).

Psionics and Ki are certainly their own things but rather semantics as the point was that they are basically as akin to each other as Divine and Arcane casting are.


As a player of a monk since first ed, I keep having to explain this to people. Ever since first ed (and through 2nd and 3rd), ki has been explained ingame as a derivative/pseudonym of psionics. It's generated from inside the creature employing it (whereas magic comes from an outside source) and isn't affected by dead magic or wild magic areas or planar effects on magic. Magic spells don't affect ki/psionics and a telepath has no problem bypassing your magical mind immunity (you'd need psionics to thwart them).

I've had DMs tell me my monk couldn't do some things ki can do because magic was all wonky and tried to explain things, but gotten nowhere. :?

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Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)


 
      
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