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DustSpray101
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 06 2012, 22:02 PM 

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Salutations my fellow Amian Dracophiles!

I am here to tell you what is expected of the Prestige Class: Dragon Disciple. Don't worry it isn't much to remember and I posted it here for everyone to reference freely!

• On Amia, when a character -chooses- the path of the Dragon Disciple, they undergo emmense changes to their psyche as well as their physical being. Note my use of the term "chooses." Discipleship implies dedication and hence cannot simply "happen on accident."

• There are many paths someone can take to level as a Dragon Disciple.

There is not necessarily only one way. However, keep in mind that each dawning of a new level of Dragon Disciple should be viewed as the completion of a ritual. What that ritual was and wether it went down as an actual ritual ceremony (IE: what we all know as "the Zelly method") or a gradual building of actions is entirely up to you as players.

For instance: It could be that you are a Red Dragon disciple and your 'ritual' was just to RP slaughtering young defenseless Goblins in troves for stints of your leveling process. That is no more right/wrong than spending hours setting up a ritual in order to become a step closer to unlocking the full heritage locked away within your bloodline. The only inherently wrong path is to pretend you have no control over it as that cannot be the case lore wise. See what I am getting at?

•Many paths.
•One goal.
•Always a ritual.
•Always chosen.
•Must always be within 1 Alignment Step of their heritage Dragon's Alignment to progress.

Also, keep in mind that as your character unlocks their bloodline, they will start to feel differently about the world as they are shaped by the alignment locked away in the core of their heritage. Metallic kin will learn to hate Chromatic Kin and vise versa. On Amia we offer a free planar option (albeit Evil) that exists outside the usual hate cycle and that is the Shadow Dragon Disciple.

In addition, before creating a character, you are free to request other dragon types as heritage alternatives to what are offered for free. Also, as a tool for fun spins of RP, I highly recommend reading "Dragons of Faerun" as well as the "Draconomicon." Both supply ample ideas for character traits your Dragon Disciple could develop as they progress along their path.

Public service announcement on Draconic Heritage:
Quote:
The RDD is not limited to merely red on Amia. All chromatics may be chosen (red, blue, green, black and white), all metallics may be chosen (gold, silver, bronze, brass and copper), along with the planar dragon choice of shadow. This choice affects the disciple's wing color, immunity and breath type. In order to choose a dragon type, a DM must be asked to grant the benefit. Note that a DM does not have to grant this perk, especially if a PC wildly differs from the established canon details of that dragon type or is not within one-step of their dragon type's alignment.


**Something New!**
From here on out, we will be allowing Dragon Disciples to take a different Draconic mutation in the form of Tail or Horns in place of Wings, for FREE at level 9 of the Dragon Disciple Class with an approved request. If you choose to go this route, you may request the other mutations at later levels, with requests, at their standard DC cost.

That about wraps things up on my end of things. Feel free to post any questions you guys have concerning this topic right here in the thread and I will do my utmost to answer them.

Cheers!
~Dusty

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FastKev
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 06 2012, 22:20 PM 

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If current and future Disciples do read through the Dragons of Faerun and the Draconomicon and find traits or such that we'd like to incorporate into our characters, would there be any preference to conferencing with a DM early to indicate that we're working towards those as character progression goals? Is there anything out of the books that would be best left out because it wouldn't fit well with Amia / NWN?

I ask this as a general question so people can reference to avoid anything the DM Team may consider a poor fit for the world.

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DustSpray101
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 06 2012, 23:32 PM 

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Off the top of my head I can think of anything. Here are some general outlines:

Just make sure it isn't a trait like: "I need to do (insert illegal behavior per server rules here)." Or, if it is something that may lead to an alignment change, be sure to take screenies as they would help with the request process down the line. (IE: Red Dragon Disciple going on a murderous rampage at a percieved slight to their vanity which could result in a shift from either CN or NE to CE.) As always, get a DM involved if your actions would be against an NPC or be against the laws of an area/town/city

Pretty much boils down to:
• Just don't break server rules.
• Be sure to document it if it will be relevant for a future request.

Did you have any slightly more specific examples in mind that could be used to better define your inquiry or was that the kind of answer you were looking for?

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Crimson_Tide
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 07 2012, 8:42 AM 

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Could one request a change to the Dragon Disciple breath weapon from the lethal to nonlethal types as pertaining to Metallic dragons?

For example, having weakening gas instead of fire as a Gold DD.

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Bini
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 07 2012, 8:47 AM 

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That's not a lore question (but metallics have both lethal and non-lethal varieties and can opt to breathe either one, iirc) and yes you could.

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DustSpray101
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 07 2012, 10:38 AM 

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Nothing wrong with a request at all! I highly encourage it :) It is what the forum is there for!

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666WaysToHell
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 13 2012, 13:08 PM 

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Prior to doing your first ritual, would there be -any- signs that mark you as different? ie; Excesively taller or larger than your normal base race, metalic-coloured hair, etc, etc.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 13 2012, 15:09 PM 

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There could be, but it doesn't have to be. Remember, DD's only need an incredibly small fraction of dragon's blood in their lineage, something possibly dozens of generations removed. Now after your first ritual, after you've strengthened that blood, then it would be likely for such traits to appear. After all, part of being a DD is bringing those traits out. Really not much to do if you already look like a freak to begin with. :wink:

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 13 2012, 16:25 PM 

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Prior to the rituals, there is absolutely no physical or mental indication of the blood that hasn't been awakened yet, no. It is 100% inert until you take that first conscious step.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 13 2012, 16:45 PM 

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There must be some indication for you to realize you might pursue it, in the first place. Sorcerous ability is supposed to be one of those signs, after all. Mundane physical characteristics are probably possible. If your family has relatively recent dragon blood (within ten generations, perhaps), I don't think it's unreasonable that they might have a certain eye colour or above-average size. "Excessively larger than your normal race" or metallic hair colour far outside the realm of natural traits is probably inappropriate, though. You have to play one of the freely available base races, after all, and hybrids with hybrid traits need approval.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 13 2012, 16:55 PM 

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I am under the impression that that's simply not the case, Iron. The only way people find out about their dragon heritage is when they do the research necessary to find out where their sorcerous ability comes from - and only those who learn it's because of a dragon have the opportunity to pursue that. It's rather straightforward: Lore is a required skill to take the class, isn't it?

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 13 2012, 17:14 PM 

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But people have family traits all the time. If you had an elf in your family some generations back, it would probably show in your hair color or body type even if you're mechanically human. It feels artificial to state dragons are magically an exception.

But it's probably not a matter of lore as much as simple flavor. I doubt there's a published source that says either way. It's good to stress that any abnormal traits outside normal biological parameters are out, though; Amians have a habit of overdoing flavor. >_>

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 13 2012, 17:32 PM 

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I think that's essentially why it's accepted that dragon blood is sort of an exception. <.<

It's overused otherwise. "Haha! I have bright silver eyes, but I'm not a disciple! My great-grandpa was a silver dragon!" I think it simply comes down to what we as a server want from our "standard" base races. The "no dragon traits, period, without a request" thing has been in place for a long time, though.

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 13 2012, 19:13 PM 

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I just have a huge difficulty in swallowing that when D&D signature sorcerer out of the PHB, Hennet, apparently has draconic bloodline and it's incredibly obvious from the art that he has physical characteristics of it. They're general, and it isn't apparent from what type of dragon his blood is mingled, but he is clearly not entirely human despite Human being his only race or template, at least up until level 5 (Enemies and Allies, pg 55-56) which is well after the level 1 presented in the PHB.

Image

Those are claws. (Okay, fine, they could just be long nails that he's trimmed into claws.)
Those are weird eyes. (Okay, fine, they could just be... contacts.)

Hennet is just a human sorcerer.

The point is that it's established that sorcerers have some kind of supernatural bloodline they can derive their magic from, typically Draconic, Fey, or Fiendish. With Feats or Unearthed Arcana stuff, they can take bloodlines from Aberrations and I think other things as well, and further delve into the main three bloodlines. I'd have to double check PGtF and FRCS, but I'm pretty sure Forgotten Realms doesn't contract this. But D&D is a magical place, and Forgotten Realms is one of the most High Magic of the settings, which means magic (and magical creatures) suffuse basically everything and to a much higher extent. Oddly colored eyes, for example, are a fairly typical hallmark of a character having a weird, distant heritage or some mixing with magic either through blood or ritual.

It also seems to be implied from the various fluff that this supernatural heritage may even by why sorcerers are so unearthly in their Charisma and beauty, because the same heritage that grants them their magic also modifies the rest of them in small ways. Being 0.0000003% dragon may not be enough for most things, but it's enough to grant an otherwise normal human the ability to innately cast magic.

I don't see how it's a stretch, from there, that they may have minor physical signs of this heritage as well, or that they might even become more prevalent or numerous as a sorcerer reaches Epic levels, because in D&D, as things grow more powerful they tend to naturally become more of what they are (although this generally just means physically larger. Go Giant spiders that can't Climb!) even without gaining Templates like Dragonblooded or the like.


 
      
serbiris
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 13 2012, 19:28 PM 

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Blame the artistic liberties (the same ones which make Mialee look horrendous)?

But still, even if it wasn't okay it would be the worst thing ever to police and I would not envy whoever was presented such a task.

Oh bugger, thought this thread was in General, not Lore. If I had realised that I probably wouldn't have said anything.


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 13 2012, 19:30 PM 

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I agree that once you've advanced as Sorcerer, then if you have draconic blood, things like that will show. And yes, small traits and whatnot are exactly what sorcerers might get as they go along. Advancing as a sorc is essentially one way of indulging in your heritage, whether it's draconic or not. So I guess by default, since you have to have some advancement in either Bard or Sorcerer before you can take your DD levels, yes, a minor trait is likely to be there.

But again, hugely overt things like being "excessively large" or having metallic hair is stuff better reserved for half-breeds or significantly advanced DD's or sorcerers. Slightly "reptilian" looking eyes or pointy fingernails are fine, but for the sake of RP, please don't go around using a few levels of either as justification to go from Peter Parker to Macho Man Randy Savage overnight. Do the work to get the traits and RP them coming through gradually. No need to cheapen your RP by making a Mary-Sue "gramps-was-a-draggie so I look like one without trying" PC.

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 13 2012, 19:31 PM 

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I think my intention with all of this is to say that the game Amia is based on supports people having minor (and superficial) characteristics even if they are only a tiny bit X. If it's really so strictly controlled that you cannot have minor characteristics associated with your sorcerous bloodline without a request, then that should be explicitly laid out so people playing on Amia know that it is different.

Players coming from a background of solely NWN may not have this confusion because NWN doesn't even mentions bloodlines in the character creation blurb about sorcerers, but for people coming from D&D, this convention is common place. Being obvious and forthright about differences in theme is what helps people not accidentally make 'illegal' characters, which also helps them have a less stressful experience with the server.

(About 80% of the male population on Amia that reports their height is 6'2" or over, by the way. I've been keeping track. What exactly is overly large here anymore, anyway? I bet they're not all sorcerers, either.)


 
      
Jes
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 13 2012, 19:40 PM 

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It's really simple... To my knowledge, it was decided it was that way because it was being abused - and still is even today. A DM ruling is all we need. I think this is one of those unwritten rules that we haven't brought up in that appropriate thread yet.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 13 2012, 19:47 PM 

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I'm definitely sympathetic to your concern, Jes, but I do think that a server rule dictating what hair and eye colors a character can have would be pretty horrendously disastrous.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 13 2012, 19:54 PM 

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If we were talking about hair and eye colors, then I wasn't paying attention. I'm talking about the more obvious stuff. Like the picture Letum showed.

Edit: That said, having eyes and hair that are excessively draconic is simply too much. Metallic silver hair? Molten yellow eyes with slit pupils? No...

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 13 2012, 19:59 PM 

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Maybe we're on different pages, then. I was thinking about things like having an odd hair or eye color, when considering the possibility of subtle indicators of distant draconic heritage. I do agree that claws or scales or whatnot is probably a bit outside plausibility, without DD levels.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 13 2012, 20:06 PM 

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This shows that good taste is a pretty ambigious line. I was thinking what Lizzie was thinking, yeah.

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GreatPigeon
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 14 2012, 0:03 AM 

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Can Dragon Disciples fall?

I mean if "Good" dragon-things are behaving badly or not in line with their dragon's blood and behaviors will they be watched more for alignment changes or the likes? Can the RDDness actually be taken from someone or weakened out of them if someone who is say a Black Dragon Disciple for whatever reason suddenly has ephinany and tries to go good?

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 14 2012, 0:13 AM 

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I'm not sure they can fall, so much as they can be barred from taking more levels, like a monk who becomes unlawful. The process you go through as a DD is a series of physically changes, so I doubt that you can somehow weaken or "revert," but I could certainly see having a change-of-heart keeping you from using your evil/good talents.

In any case, you become an RP piraya, because it should become hard and harder to change your viewpoint as you advance as a DD, just like how dragons are almost never found outside their own alignment in FR.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 14 2012, 6:21 AM 

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I'm going to ask for a DM to answer that one, too. I think everyone knows my view on the matter! A disciple is called a disciple for a reason. They accept and welcome the blood that's already there, allowing it to change them as it becomes unlocked. It becomes them. It alters their very psyche. There is no going back or "changing your mind".

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treant13
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 14 2012, 14:55 PM 

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I have been working out a back story for my dragon disciple, but more have a question. Is out possible to activate your dragon blood without knowing what dragon type you are descended from? I was thinking that my character would have no idea what was in store for him and rp it that way.

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FastKev
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 14 2012, 16:02 PM 

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I had the same idea you did for awhile. Is it possible? Maybe for the first ritual to kick things off, but part of the growth experience is connecting with your lineage dragon type. The moment the ritual is complete you're taking on traits of your ancestor that you've willingly accepted. If your character is interested enough to perform the ritual you're going to likely do enough research to figure out what type it is, and probably before it's something that's counter to your personality. A Necromancer wouldn't likely activate Gold dragon blood, no more than a Holy Paladin would go with Red.

Can you be ignorant to start? Possibly, depending on if knowing which dragon you're related to is part of the initial ritual. Would you remain that way long regardless? Unlikely.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 14 2012, 16:16 PM 

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Absolutely not, I'm afraid. There is no room for "I didn't know it was an evil dragon! Woe is me!" in the path of the Dragon Disciple. The Lore requirement indicates that you have done the research necessary (either in-game or off-screen) to know and study your dragon ancestor enough to stoke that blood into waking up. The ritualistic way you take the class means that they are specifically designed for the dragon blood type that you have. You cannot awaken that blood without knowing what kind of dragon it was, and the personality/alignment of that dragon type. Of this, I am absolutely certain.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 14 2012, 20:05 PM 

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There are recorded instances of it occuring, but in that case there was a second character performing the rituals on the first, who did know what he was doing. So I suppose it comes down to the same, in the end.

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Nivo
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 14 2012, 20:13 PM 

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This was also done during a time where different (read: looser) standards were held by the sever culture at-large. And before the DM team established DD lore.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 14 2012, 21:52 PM 

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Mind that your established lore doesn't address the question, Nivo. And this doesn't really have much to do with the strictness of standards as it does about their application to a specific lore question. Loose standards would mean the question wasn't asked or answered at all, that it would be up to individual players.

I don't know of any sources supporting Jes' categorical statement. There's a lore requirement and it's reasonable to suppose that it relates to your research about the class rituals, but it's not really fair to say it must mean you know who, specifically, your ancestor was. Your family legends might very well be misleading.

I imagine it would become clear very soon, though. You start growing scales and other traits at level 1, and you've already dipped into the spirit of the dragon within. So yeah, in that sense I don't see why "Woe is me, I'm an evil dragon!" wouldn't be possible. Your decision to advance in the class is a choice and by then you know, though.

In the light of canon lore, the possibility is clearly not blocked, and I see no reason for Amia to arbitrarily impose different standards than what the lore warrants. I mean, you can do that if it seems smart, but I'm not sure what goal you would want to achieve with that additional restriction. Is there some bad or cheesy story you think shouldn't be allowed to happen, specifically?

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 14 2012, 23:03 PM 

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It's sort of going against the whole thing that we establish as going DD being a conscious choice. I too agree that you know what your ancestor is before your first DD level, because of the lore requirement. Especially if we've agreed that minor draconic traits can show up on a person, before they even research their blood(as a sorcerer at least). To me, that first level and its requirements mean that you've successfully identified and gone through with a ritual particular to your dragon breed.

The cheesy story is more or less "Yeah, I'm have red dragon in me, but I didn't know until lv 9, so I can still be a good guy with red dragon traits." It's just in bad taste, given that FR establishes dragons as paragons of their alignment, under all but extremely rare circumstances.

Beyond that, the other concept is that while there are multiple ritual paths to becoming a DD, they are particular to the dragon type. I mean, they have to be. Going out for your first ritual and eating your first raw kill in the frozen tundra doesn't bring out any draconic heritage indifferently. That's something of course for White Dragon Disciples. I suppose some argument could be made that your ritual could be more general to dragon behavior(lets say, hoarding gems or slaughtering things), but those are actions innate to loads of creatures; how would ambiguously meditating on torturing the weak bring out your red dragon heritage more or less than it would bring out your demonic heritage, if you had it?

I'm all for RP liberties, but I'm with Jes when I agree that it's called a disciple for a reason. No one stumbles into a monastery and becomes an ascetic unawares. By becoming a DD, taking that first level, you're agreeing to search after and embody a certain set of principles before you even take your first ritual. That's why for us it has the one-step alignment rule like a cleric. Maybe the base lore for the class doesn't go into as much detail. But as a server we've framed it within our own scope of lore.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 14 2012, 23:22 PM 

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Agreed with DI: it's not plausible to think that the ritual to awaken draconic blood would be identical regardless of the specific type of blood you're awakening. There isn't, in other words, a ritual to awaken just any old type of dragon blood a person may or may not have. There's a ritual for red, a completely different ritual for silver, another completely different ritual for shadow, and so on. The rituals are tailored to the tastes and traits and habits of the dragon type in question. You can't even prepare to take that first RDD level without knowing which ritual is being performed; therefore you can' do it in ignorance of the particular fate you're in for if you go through with it. That's kind of the only way it makes sense, in my opinion.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Sat, Dec 15 2012, 0:22 AM 

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Considering the official lore posted by DustSpray says the ritual can be pretty much anything, I don't buy that. The likely first step is some kind of magical ritual anyway, some trick to activate dormant genes. It doesn't have to matter which genes those are. I'm glad that people are finally picking up the "disciple" aspect I nagged for years ago, but going beyond the letter of the lore (in this case, also the additional Amian lore) in enforcing ideas on others is dangerous.

It shouldn't matter what the best interpration is. We need to agree to the minimal letter of the lore and not enforce our preferences outside of that. If the DMs establish additional lore on top of the canon class lore (which is rare in Amian history), then that's the lore we need to stick to as strictly as possible. This good decision of setting some rules shouldn't be an invitation to slide down a slippery slope.

Edit: What I'm saying, in short: you can't say "This is the established lore we're going to enforce, right here. Oh, and it also means X and Y, even though it doesn't say. And it's kinda assumed that Z, too."

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Last edited by IronAngel on Sat, Dec 15 2012, 1:39 AM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Sat, Dec 15 2012, 1:26 AM 

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Certainly you're not saying the DM's can't house-rule lore, right? Because that's kind of what they've have to do to explain changes in several classes we have.

But to entertain the thought that one can become a DD without knowing what particular dragon type he is, when exactly should he figure it out? Lv 3 when he gets his breath attack? Both chromatic and metallic dragons share a similar breath type with one or another, save for the case of Shadow Dragons. Lv 9? That invites the scenario I spoke of before. You could have someone as a lv 9 disciple being completely ambivalent about their alignment and what breed they are up until their wings show, so long as they claim "He still doesn't know what he is, yet."

Sometime between Lv's 3 and 9? Leaving it up to the player to decide within that time period what dragon they are still brings with it the same alignment issue. It's much easier, even without looking at it from an IC what-do-you-know perspective, to enforce that a PC knows their ancestry to begin the ritual. There's really no point in trying to enforce an alignment restriction for a class when the PC can simply rebuttal that he, the player, nor the DM can rightly say what type of disciple he is yet. And again, as much importance as we put on the class in regards to being proper alignment, that would be an incredibly clunky set-up.

So it may not encompass all the lore possibilities we could indulge if this were a PnP game between a few people, but it certainly streamlines what would otherwise be pandemonium in people RPing disciples as whatever they want from moment to moment on a server-wide basis.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Sat, Dec 15 2012, 1:32 AM 

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Dark Immolation wrote:
Certainly you're not saying the DM's can't house-rule lore, right?


I'm saying they just did, and you're trying to smuggle in more than what the letter of their lore clearly states. If we now have the Amian house-rule to complement the canon, then that's as far as it goes. If there were to be more rules and restrictions, they would/should have been spelled out in the first place (and I have a hard time believing the best minds of the team hadn't considered this possibility when they ironed out the lore).

When should he find out? At level 1 when he gains the physical characteristics, including scales. And probably an internal understanding. I don't see how in many cases you even could know for sure before you took that step, because there's no reason the research you did and the sources you consulted are always accurate.

I think people make lore questions harder than they actually are, to be honest. If the question is of the form, "is this possible", then there's only one answer: you check the applicable sources to see if there's anything that would explicitly or indirectly prevent it. Failing to find such a statement, you are forced to concede that it seems possible. Whether it's "likely", "tasteful" or "in line with the spirit" of the thing is irrelevant to whether it's possible. The rule of thumb should always be "innocent until proven otherwise."

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NinjaClarinet
 
PostPosted: Sat, Dec 15 2012, 1:57 AM 



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Just to play devil's advocate:

My personal opinion is that there is some leeway when first starting out. Say you're a bard, and you've heard family legends about some dragon in your past, or alternatively you've heard legends of a dragon in the region you were born. You do a little digging, discover that it might have gotten into your family line somehow. Accounts on the dragon itself are sketchy. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head the specifics differentiating brass/copper/bronze, and I've read the draconomicon several times. Most characters wouldn't even have that much to go by, only vague legends, poems and stories by elders or old family records. The first ritual might be pretty generic, to discern if there's blood in there at all, and to kick it off.

At level one though:

Draconic Armor

Specifics: The character becomes more draconic in appearance. His skin develops tiny iridescent scales, nearly invisible. This provides increasing natural armor bonuses to his base armor class.


To me, that wouldn't leave much room for doubt as to what color you were after that first ritual. If a character wants to stop at a single level of dragon disciple because the color doesn't match their moral or ethical views, bloody hell, more power to them. But, I don't know many people that would do that. There's a sourcebook that suggests this happens somewhat frequently with NPCs, but not PCs because we like our power builds. I wouldn't close the door on the possibility, however. I do think that after any more than the first level however, you forgo any right to feigning ignorance. (I'll try to find the sourcebook again to cite my sources properly)


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Sat, Dec 15 2012, 2:12 AM 

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Well I suppose the use of the word "smuggling" is highly dependent upon your interpretation of what has been posted as our Amia lore then. These is the lines in particular that I am looking at:

Quote:
On Amia, when a character -chooses- the path of the Dragon Disciple, they undergo emmense changes to their psyche as well as their physical being. Note my use of the term "chooses." Discipleship implies dedication and hence cannot simply "happen on accident."

The only inherently wrong path is to pretend you have no control over it as that cannot be the case lore wise.


@ Iron: You're saying that "having control" over your advancement simply means that you actively choose to become a DD of some kind, that kind indifferently unbeknownst to you as the disciple. I, and a few others it seems, are of the mind that "having control" means actively have to choose what DD you advance as in particular.

By the circumstance you put forward, you can still "accidentally" become a Red Dragon Disciple. You didn't know for sure that it was a red dragon in your heritage. You did the first ritual. Surprise, surprise, you grew red scales. Now maybe this isn't becoming a DD accidentally as you interpreted, but to me it's still saying that you accidentally became a follower of a particular mindset, and that you had no dirext control over it. Yes, you had control over becoming a DD at all, but not over what urges you'd be inviting into your psyche. That somehow, at the exact moment of the ritual, there might as well have been a coin flip between being good to your fellow man or having his head on a pike for your dinner.

Perhaps the spirit of the law shouldn't come into play with most ideas of a rule of thumb, but when disregarding that spirit of the rule allows you to skirt around something that is plainly stated in the actual ruling itself, then it's probably time to take a second look at it.

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Last edited by Dark Immolation on Sat, Dec 15 2012, 2:14 AM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
NinjaClarinet
 
PostPosted: Sat, Dec 15 2012, 2:13 AM 



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Races of the Dragon has some interesting stuff about dragonkin and incompatible moral codes. Also: Rite of Draconic Affinity. You can change your color! *watches Jes squirm*


 
      
Halecta
 
PostPosted: Sat, Dec 15 2012, 3:58 AM 

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Dragons are paragons of their alignment, so the desciple also tend to get an alignment shift twords what the dragon is the more they advance in DD level, you can not accidently do it. But some things can be apparently, a Bard who likes to talk to much may have Brass Dragon ancestry for example, or a greedy sorceror obsessed with material possessions might have Red Dragon ancestry


The first level of DD is also a choice, you actually have to do something to awaken it. Just because someone knows they have dragon blood, does not mean they are automatically a DD


 
      
Liz
 
PostPosted: Sat, Dec 15 2012, 4:19 AM 

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Agreed with DI (again, wow :) ). Dusty's declaration that advancing as a RDD is always within a character's control is definitive, and entirely countermands the idea that someone might be able to level in RDD without knowing exactly what they're getting into.

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DerkDerkistan
 
PostPosted: Sat, Dec 15 2012, 6:47 AM 

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Dark Immolation wrote:
By the circumstance you put forward, you can still "accidentally" become a Red Dragon Disciple. You didn't know for sure that it was a red dragon in your heritage. You did the first ritual. Surprise, surprise, you grew red scales. Now maybe this isn't becoming a DD accidentally as you interpreted, but to me it's still saying that you accidentally became a follower of a particular mindset, and that you had no dirext control over it. Yes, you had control over becoming a DD at all, but not over what urges you'd be inviting into your psyche. That somehow, at the exact moment of the ritual, there might as well have been a coin flip between being good to your fellow man or having his head on a pike for your dinner.


I think you're overvaluing 1 level in a class. There is a vast difference between putting your toes in the water and going deep-sea diving. Certain classes like cleric/paladin are all-or-nothing, but 1 level in RDD can certainly mean that you've tested the waters to see if you had dragons in your family tree and found out that, yep...but it's a red. 1 level does not mean your whole personality will need to change. It's meant to be a gradual change. Why else do you only get perks of the class one at a time? I think it can be perfectly logical to get that wake-up call and decide you didn't wish to pursue it any further.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Sat, Dec 15 2012, 11:10 AM 

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NinjaClarinet and Derk summed up my thoughts exactly. I think you're grasping for straws: your personality doesn't change overnight and "force" you to embrace new ideals, the whole process is partially caused by your willing adoption of a dragon mindset. And the decision to willingly pursue DD levels in no way implies that you know what ancestry you'll uncover. Not only does the lore not say that, it doesn't even suggest it. At least I can't get that from what's posted here, no matter which way I look at it.

Having control over the process is vague anyway: you do not have control over which type you become because you obviously do not have control over your ancestry. And you don't have control over the specific changes that come unto you. So if "control" was the key word, then the class itself would be invalid.

And mind that the lore doesn't say you have full control, or even good control, over the changes. It says it's wrong to say you have no control. Minimally, the control is the decision to peek into your soul and activate the dormant dragon blood. At that point, you may or may not know what's in store, and you have to take it a day at a time.

Are you also saying a character couldn't become scared by the changes to his psyche and body at level 4 or 6 and stop advancing? That perhaps he got more than he bargained for, and suddenly realizes he's losing his humanity? That's a certainly a possibility that would warrant stopping the process. You're basically saying that before taking the very first DD level, you must have a full understanding of all the changes you will have undergone by level 10. Otherwise you're not "in control" and pursuing it with full awareness. And that's obviously nonsense. The lvl 1 question is no different.


And speaking more in lore-terms than rules, do you really think it would be common to identify your dragon ancestor? If the ancestor is 100 generations back, that makes it about 2000-3000 years old news. Chances are, for most people it's somewhere around 50th generation blood. The possibility of finding out for sure, no matter how much research you do, is remote. So that means dragon disciples could only come from a few families of particularly meticulous record-keepers, and most players meta-gamed. That isn't a more appetizing alternative to the possibility of only finding out the specifics once you start the rituals. (Hell, I would go so far as to say you might not immediately know the name of the dragon you descend from, and that's a personal quest you pursue during your level-up process.)


I guess it boils down to whether the DMs want to amend their new lore with a clarification. As it stands, the lore doesn't explicitly prevent the reasonable story of finding out your ancestry only in the process of taking the first level. Rules exist to protect players, and you can't really incriminate someone for following the letter of the law. If the spirit is something else than the letter, then it's badly formulated.

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treant13
 
PostPosted: Sat, Dec 15 2012, 19:11 PM 

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I think it could make for some good roleplaying if you didn't know and had a few dud rituals because they were for the wrong color. Makes the discovery more fulfilling. Though i guess there could be a generic first ritual that sparks the traits common in all dragons like pride and hoarding.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Sun, Dec 16 2012, 4:30 AM 

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I have strong opinions on this, obviously. I'll leave it to a DM, since no one's gonna take anything I (or any other player) say as anything but an opinion, anyway - which isn't necessarily wrong. Opinionated debates are not what the Lore forum is for. Response from a DM is all it takes to clear anything like this up.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, Dec 16 2012, 5:39 AM 

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Nivo wrote:
This was also done during a time where different (read: looser) standards were held by the sever culture at-large. And before the DM team established DD lore.


No, it wasn't. It was done incredibly recently and sanctioned by several DMs who knew what was going on the entire time, and even helped me with it. I know because it was my alt.

I mean, if you're going to nullify every bit of RP that emteht and Korthan did, I need to know, because I'm not done doing it, assuming I come back to playing.. But I got no complaints from any DM while I did it. I see no issue with anything I did re: RDD lore, and I'm probably one of the bigger voices on the forum along with Jes and Dustspray for 'purity of RP' with Dragon Disciple stuff.

So are you telling me hat you're limiting Disciple RP to nothing but bland, boring rituals always performed strictly by one person that 100% knows everything beforehand and excluding the involvement of any other external influence? Because that's incredibly limiting for a class that has a ton of potential.

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Xaviera
 
PostPosted: Sun, Dec 16 2012, 16:43 PM 

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It seems reasonable to me that level advancement as a DD is up to the character. If they ICly don't like what they find out they don't have to go on, otherwise there would be an implicit requirement that you are forced to continue advancing in the class. However, the rule is also that you must be within one alignment step, so ICly it probably won't come as that great of a shock and/or won't really be out of tune with the individual's psychology ("I wanted to be a platinum dragon disciple so that I could rule Kohlingen, but now that I see I'm descended from a red they've barred me from the city so I'll take control anyway and show them all nyahaha!").

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DustSpray101
 
PostPosted: Sun, Dec 16 2012, 23:52 PM 

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Quote:
Physical traits before DD levels?

You don't get scales until after level 1 DD (and even then it is more of a skin color tint change without closer examination). Up until that point, I would say you should keep any physical indications of heritage to a minimum. Maybe an odd hue to your eyes. Perhaps a slightly larger brow ridge, or -slightly- lighter or darker skin/hair tone for your chosen race's origin region or an ever so slight echo to your voice. Hell, even a strong Lisp! Just leave scales, horns, tails, claws, and talons out of it. For reasons mentioned there are enough 6' whatever" on Amia that Height is not going to be a serious tell.

GreatPigeon wrote:
Can Dragon Disciples fall?

No. As mentioned though, they can be barred from taking further levels if they stray beyond the alignment restriction of their discipleship. As a DD progresses, however, their mind is slowly overwhelmed with the inherent alignment-impacting thoughts of their ancestor's bloodline (urges to murder children or help an old lady cross the street sort of stuff) so it would naturally be extremely difficult for them to fight their growing 'nature' and late level DDs would need a serious request to up and "change their stars" as it were.

Quote:
________ Dragon Disciple on accident?

Nope, can't follow something you didn't know about. As mentioned, it is part of the Lore Pre-Req of the class. Your toon spent some time on their heritage, even if it overlapped with other studies. Plus with spells like Legend Lore available even on purchasable items and a few item drops (last I checked), there really should be zero reason for them to not know what they are getting into.

Quote:
Why are rituals being less than structured?

The presented lore of this thread is left as vague as possible as it is the shared belief of the staff that our player base should have as much freedom as possible in their interpretations. It increases their fun, our fun, and produces unique characters even if they share the same PRC and in this case even the same heritage. A Copper DD could for instance have Zelly's route, or a Copper DD could have earned their levels performing in a theater and developing a social ritual tied to their heritage, or any number of other methods. The point of each ritual is simply to have your toon connect with their Draconic heritage. There is a lot of freedom to be had here and plenty of wiggle room. If in doubt, ask!

NinjaClarinet wrote:
Races of the Dragon has some interesting stuff about dragonkin and incompatible moral codes. Also: Rite of Draconic Affinity. You can change your color! *watches Jes squirm*

That has come up in DM discussions before and it has been agreed that the ritual will not exist on Amia. Kudos though on reading Races of the Dragon! :D

Quote:
Your undoing RP!

Nope. As with the bulk of our class-effecting lore lassoing, those with characters that were DD's before the lore was made specific are fine keeping whatever background they had on their rise to where they are at now. Amia has a history of Grandfathering the old stuff in and this is no exception. To clarify, these specifically effect advancement in levels of Dragon Disciple as of Dec 6, 2012 and moving forward.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 2:41 AM 

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You didn't address anything I said. "Grandfathered" is not an acceptable answer. Especially when the RP is not finished and could be continuing.

So an answer would be cool.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 17 2012, 2:54 AM 

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It would be nice if the entire DM team could read the topic and come to a consensus on how to amend/clarify the rule. My opinion on the lore of it is clear, but either way it's the kind of character creation/advancement rule that needs to be officially declared and documented in R&L. Because while interpretations differ, this discussion is pretty clear evidence that it does need heavy interpreting and isn't explicit.

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