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Knight Commander/Dwarven Defender/Fighter EDR III is also going to run to potency albiet at two less AB and alot less damage than the Weapon Master version.

I think with some feat movement freed up from WM you might be able to overcome that 2 ab though.

the MS might work too.....hmmmm

Its not the feat movement its the skill requirement.

Given you want to go 6 Fighter 19 DwD 5 Knight Commander

Uberuce wrote:

Just seems a bit anticlimactic. Personally I'd hate myself for geting so close, and yet so far. Might as well get some frontloaded juice after Bard25.

Would it be worth it to take four in something convenient like fighter pre-epic just for the fourth attack? I've never been comfortable without it on melee characters, even if the fourth attack tends to have a pitifully low to-hit.

23 bard 5 knight commander says awesome to me on ECL +2
23 Bard 4 fighter 1 ranger
23 bard 5 master scout

Just some ideas. the last one doesnt get the Extra Attack but is a great concept in my book.

I didn't miss the fourth on my Bard26/CoT2/Ftr2, and she would have been badly feat-starved if I'd not taken the second Ftr/CoT levels in epic. What's the (sub)race?

It's an ECL +1 race. I'd love to sneak in KC or MS (especially MS) like pigeon said, but cutting off at level 4 seems kind of meh, like doubling the disappointment. I imagined it'd end up something like 23 bard/5 MS/1 fighter or ranger, seeing as I always liked that idea too.

I figured on it being best to give up the fourth attack for the bonus epic feats like Uce suggested, but I figured it was worth asking ahead of time. I may have to leave this shelved until the updated classes enter the picture after all.

Hey folk I need to know when taking 15th level of wizard in epic can you take epic spell penetration with that bonus feat.

Any epic stuff needs 21 wizard levels.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Wizard

Yes.

Any Epic Spells, silly Hend. You can even take the non-spell epic caster feats on Bard levels, providing you've got the 9th level casting from elsewhere.

thanks that's what i was wondering. yah i'll have 9 lvl spells by then. this is a spell penetration feat so i figured it would pop up in the bonus feats just like greater or regular spell penetration. than you all for the responses. great so long as you have 21 levels and the proper unlocking feats you are good to go great!

Arcadence wrote:

It's an ECL +1 race. I'd love to sneak in KC or MS (especially MS) like pigeon said, but cutting off at level 4 seems kind of meh, like doubling the disappointment. I imagined it'd end up something like 23 bard/5 MS/1 fighter or ranger, seeing as I always liked that idea too.

I figured on it being best to give up the fourth attack for the bonus epic feats like Uce suggested, but I figured it was worth asking ahead of time. I may have to leave this shelved until the updated classes enter the picture after all.

Don't bother with going too much Bard levels, after level 16 your bard song practically doesn't improve except on the skillpoint and HP bonus, those are marginal anyway. The highest bard levels you'd want to go would be 20 if you want Lasting Inspiration.

ECL +1 race is a problem now, because otherwise you could simply go Bard20/KC5/MS5 and have all the goodies you need, even the extra 4'th APR.

Aeqvinox will burn in hell for being inexplicit. What s/he's trying to say is that from 20 to 23 the Bard Song doesn't undergo any major improvement, but it does affect your CL, improving your spells and especially how long you can run in PvM with your limited amount of Mass Haste goodiness per day.

If Aeqvinox is seriously insinuating that Bard after level 20 is pointless, s/he'll burn in hell more.

If you want KC or MS, the 23/5/1 spread you already contemplated on is the way to go. You won't hit the 25 benchmark, but that's perfectly excusable as you want to reach the full potency of the updated classes. Bard23 also yields you an extra feat. The only difference is in the order of levels; with KC it's Bard16/KC4 pre-epic, with MS it's Bard20. Both are wonderful, I'd imagine, but they deviate from each other in terms of RP quite significantly. Pick whichever is closer to your preference.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Aeqvinox will burn in hell for being inexplicit. What s/he's trying to say is that from 20 to 23 the Bard Song doesn't undergo any major improvement, but it does affect your CL, improving your spells and especially how long you can run in PvM with your limited amount of Mass Haste goodiness per day.

If Aeqvinox is seriously insinuating that Bard after level 20 is pointless, s/he'll burn in hell more.

+1

Very_Svensk wrote:

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Aeqvinox will burn in hell for being inexplicit. What s/he's trying to say is that from 20 to 23 the Bard Song doesn't undergo any major improvement, but it does affect your CL, improving your spells and especially how long you can run in PvM with your limited amount of Mass Haste goodiness per day.

If Aeqvinox is seriously insinuating that Bard after level 20 is pointless, s/he'll burn in hell more.

+1

I'm that kind of guy that takes like 8 to 11 levels of Bard, is happy with it, and ends up with a powerbuild anyway *shrugs*.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Bard23 also yields you an extra feat.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Mass Haste goodiness

MS 5 also yields you an extra feat and 4 levels of a class that will have so many goodiness that you will forget about 3 extra songs/day and their minor benefits, as well as extra 15% duration on your spells.

Yes, in this case, more than 20 levels of bard is just silly.

EDIT: My suggestion concerns only an instance, where he wouldn't take an ecl+1 race, ending up with the full potential of 3 classes. Otherwise, he should follow your suggestions.

Taking both KC and MS has a heavy cost of feats. To me it'd be either one or the other, not both, meaning 25/5.

And for the record, a character with 8 to 11 levels of Bard is not a powerbuild. It's a shameless gimmick, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be happy with it.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

And for the record, a character with 8 to 11 levels of Bard is not a powerbuild. It's a shameless gimmick, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be happy with it.

I could give you a ton of examples, but cba.

Its not possible to take Knight Commander 5/Master Scout 5 and 20 Bard and come out with a decent build other than being nearly a full support guy (not that thats bad). Feat and Skill requirements are to much and you struggle to take the nescessary three feats that are integral to being a decent bard.

Curse, Extend, Maximise.

Then the four required feats for Knight Commander

Which will leave you one pre-epic feat free.

So even if you weren't ECL +1 going full levels on all would be silly.

Aeqvinox wrote:

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

And for the record, a character with 8 to 11 levels of Bard is not a powerbuild. It's a shameless gimmick, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be happy with it.

I could give you a ton of examples, but cba.

It would still be a gimmick.

MoshingChris wrote:

Its not possible to take Knight Commander 5/Master Scout 5 and 20 Bard and come out with a decent build other than being nearly a full support guy (not that thats bad). Feat and Skill requirements are to much and you struggle to take the nescessary three feats that are integral to being a decent bard.

Curse, Extend, Maximise.

01: Bard(01): Toughness, Extend [Power Attack]
02: Bard(02)
03: Bard(03): WFocus
04: Bard(04)
05: Bard(05)
06: Bard(06): Skill Focus
07: Bard(07)
08: Bard(08)
09: Bard(09): Skill Focus
10: Bard(10)
11: Bard(11)
12: Bard(12): Maximize [Cleave]
13: MS(01): Curse Song
14: MS(02):
15: MS(03): Skill Focus
16: MS(04):
17: KC(01):
18: KC(02): Blind Fight [Great Cleave]
19: KC(03):
20: KC(04):
21: KC(05): EWF [Imp Crit]
22: MS(05): Lasting Inspiration
23: Bard(13):
24: Bard(14): Great Strength
25: Bard(15):
26: Bard(16):
27: Bard(17): EPR [Over Crit]
28: Bard(18):
29: Bard(19):
30: Bard(20): AS [Dev Crit]

Added an alternative feat selection in brackets, to stray from a support build. Here's the stats you need to pull it off. It's not optimized, it's just proving a point.

STR 17 [25]
DEX 10
CON 10
WIS 09
INT 10
CHA 16

MoshingChris wrote:

It would still be a gimmick.

This is unfortunately the nature of DnD. We're all running around with gimmicky builds as soon as we multiclass. Why complain, if it allows you more freedom to shape your character and give him more means to interact with the world?

EDIT: Race is human of course.

You know dev has changed, right?

Quote:

Why complain, if it allows you more freedom to shape your character and give him more means to interact with the world?

I got a feeling your definition of this is "PvP better".

As I said and didn't even have to type anything out, that build would be totally inferior to a 25 Bard 5 KC or a 25 Bard 5 Master Scout.

Also Curse Song isn't a master scout bonus feat nor is lasting inspiration at level 5 Master Scout (or at least they shouldn't be so if you did it on the test server thats an error that will be fixed).

You can't take extend at first level bard.

You only have access to simple weapon focus at level 3 bard.

A Bard gets 5 SP per level, You need perform, tumble, umd, Discipline. So you will have 1 SP free per level to get all your master scout and knight commander pre-reqs.

Thats not all I have to say, but with so many errors in the build and the assertion that X is correct when in fact B is correct leads me to believe you aren't aware enough of the balance and culture of the server for me to be less than critical about your talents as a character builder.

Not to mention you cannot take Lasting Inspiration without 20 Bard, so that screws that build up totally.

Very_Svensk wrote:

You know dev has changed, right?

Yes.

TormakSaber wrote:

I got a feeling your definition of this is "PvP better".

Believe it or not, i haven't had a single pvp encounter on Amia yet, and on a server i used to play before i had only a bunch of those. I don't build specifically for pvp, i consider such builds boring point-and-click type of things. My definition of a fun build is exactly the opposite of point-and-click. A bard/ms/kc is that kind of build, because it gives you a multitude of tools at your disposal to resolve pve combat.

Now, MoshingChris, which part of this statement about the build i presented:

Aeqvinox wrote:

It's not optimized, it's just proving a point.

have you not understood?
I was merely proving that bard/kc/ms has enough feats to take all you need [and definitely more than just 1 pre-epic feat free like someone suggested]. The stat distribution was only for the Dev Crit example, i have no clue why you're taking this seriously, it was only meant to show that there's even room for something like Dev crit prerequisites and still keeping most of the crucial feats.

Yes, maybe you can't take bard feats on MS bonus ones, thank you for pointing this out. Move them elsewhere. You're practically gaining 2 more feats, because what you have suggested [Maximize and Heavy Armor proficiency] is something that is very confusing.

I repeat, that was not a valid build, that was an example. The full description of KC and MS was not released yet afaik.

MoshingChris wrote:

you aren't aware enough of the balance and culture of the server for me to be less than critical about your talents as a character builder.

I'm fine, thank you.
The builds i've created for myself [and for my friends] are solid and unique, they are fun to play, powerful in pve and have no problems of any kind, if that is what you're getting at with the 'sever balance'.
The characters i play have ongoing RP with others, have no need to justify their awkward gimmicks inRP like some characters do, because there are none, and the builds are only enriching the experience, if that is what you're getting at with 'server culture'.
Then again, i have no idea what you're getting at...

But do not feel discouraged, i am always open for constructive criticism, so please keep it coming.

Naivatkal wrote:

Not to mention you cannot take Lasting Inspiration without 20 Bard, so that screws that build up totally.

Oh yes... you can't

But you can take it somewhere else. That was not a valid build.

... You missed Mosh's entire point about your build not being doable period.

Last edited by Aeqvinox on Mon, Sep 19 2011, 21:04 PM, edited 3 times in total.

TormakSaber wrote:

... You missed Mosh's entire point about your build not being doable period.

What is wrong with you people? It's doable, i'm doing it for you again, this time spending 15 more minutes to make sure the bleedin feats are at the correct levels *facepalm*.

Bard 20/MS 5/KC 5
Human, any non lawful

STR 15 (22)
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 14 (16)

01: Bard(01): Toughness, Skill Focus: Disipline
02: Bard(02)
03: Bard(03): Curse Song
04: Bard(04) [STR=16]
05: Bard(05)
06: Bard(06): Extend
07: KC(01): [Heavy Armor, Martial Weapons]
08: KC(02): [CHA=15]
09: KC(03): WFocus
10: KC(04):
11: KC(05):
12: Bard(07) Skill Focus: Spot, [CHA=16]
13: Bard(08):
14: Bard(09)
15: Bard(10) Skill Focus: Listen
16: Bard(11): [STR=17]
17: Bard(12):
18: Bard(13): Blind Fight
19: Bard(14):
20: Bard(15): [STR=18]
21: Bard(16): EWF
22: MS(01): #Great Strength I, [STR=19]
23: MS(02):
24: MS(03): Armor Skin, [STR=20]
25: MS(04):
26: MS(05): #Great Strength II, [STR=21]
27: Bard(17): Epic Prowess [or Maximize]
28: Bard(18): [STR=22]
29: Bard(19):
30: Bard(20): Lasting Inspiration

fort: 16 [*24]
ref: 15 [*22]
will: 15 [*22]
*with song and that imbalanced MS feat

HP 270 [298 with song]
Skills: 221

BAB: 21, 4x APR
AB: 31 [46 with max STR, Song, GMW, Warcry; 48 in wilderness]
AC: 35 in mundane full plate/towershield + song

Just don't tell me it's useless, it's an example! and it's a working viable build this time. It doesn't mean i would want to play it.

Now what's the point in going Bard 25, if it only gives you: +5 songs per day [+1 AC, 10hp, 6skills], 25% longer spells, +2d6 on Icestorm, +5 on Whispers, +5 Lore?

You got the bulk of bard's stuff already, squeezing it harder won't yield you a whole lot more.

Instead you get 2 more feats. Both Heavy Armor + Martial, and 2x Great Strength.
Not to mention MS's +5 to saving throws and other stuff, or KC's immunities and other fancy Mordekainen's auras...

There's everything you wanted to see in this build and moar. Now stop busting my balls if you're the one being wrong.

I was not wrong. Your build was literally not creatable for the reasons Mosh pointed out. Changing it later doesn't alter the fact that your previous build was invalid. Period.

I did already explain about 3 or 4 times, that the build i posted previously was not valid. Thank you captain obvious.

This one is valid.

This is so pointless. Keep it to the people actually asking for builds, yeah?

Favor an Amia newbie with a wiz or sorc build - anyone? How do the epic feats turn out? Is it mandatory to be crit immune or have HIPS? Thanks for answers, ridicule will be tolerated too

plenty of good arcane caster builds. play around with wizard and fighter builds. some people have good success with those. i prefer the pure builds myself, which are also easy to have an idea for.
some things to look at are mummy dust, epic mage armour, greater ruin is always handy as well. dragon summon also has its place

epic spells need at least 21 in a caster class, and 20 int/cha respectively for wizard and sorcerer. all will do well on amia, a thing to try out are the summon spells as well. they got an overhaul from regular nwn.

Okay! First time I've been in this topic, if I'm not mistaken! Here's my idea:

9 Paladin/5 KC/16 CoT
Human, LG

Starting Stats:
STR 16
DEX 8
CON 12
WIS 12
INT 14
CHA 14

01: Paladin, 4 Discipline 4 Taunt 4 Lore 4 Concentration 2 Persuade 1 Tumble - Wpn Focus (Longsword), Toughness
02: Paladin, 1 Discipline 1 Taunt 2 Persuade 1 Concentration
03: Paladin, 1 Discipline, 1 Taunt, 1 Concentration - Continue assigning points like this, crossclass Tumble - Power Attack
04: Paladin, +1 STR
05: Paladin
06: Paladin - Divine Might
07: Paladin
08: Paladin, +1 STR
09: Paladin - Skill Focus (Discipline)
10: KC - Continue adding Discipline and Taunt, assuming KC's get taunt as a class skill, otherwise crossclass as possible.
11: KC
12: KC, +1 STR - Improved Critical (Longsword)
13: KC
14: CoT - Continue adding Discipline, crossclass Tumble as possible, but save at least 1 point per level
15: CoT - Knockdown, Improved Knockdown
16: CoT, +1 STR
17: CoT - Blindfight
18: CoT - Iron Will
19: CoT - Called Shot
20: CoT +1 STR
21: CoT - Epic Prowess, E. Wpn Focus (Longsword)
22: CoT
23: CoT - Armor Skin
24: CoT, +1 STR - E. Skill Focus (Discipline)
25: CoT
26: CoT
27: CoT - Great Strength I, Disarm
28: CoT +1 STR (24)
29: CoT
30: KC, Taunt Dump - Epic Will

Will have to gain the full softcap on Charisma through gear + buffs, but that shouldn't be too difficult. Extremely limited paladin spellcasting, but there should be several wands that a Paladin can use without UMD if I'm not mistaken? Most of the damage will come from Divine Wrath/Divine Might and Purge Infidel (infact, that'll give an extra +7 AB ... +32 damage, I believe, for just under a minute per rest).

Outstanding saves, though (once I max out the CHA softcap):
37 Fortitude
29 Reflex
34 Will

Each of which jump up by an additional 7 points once Divine Wrath is used.

So, uhh... Thoughts, comments?

The stan-... What the hell?

:shock:

Dude, You need way more paladin levels.

Something like 23Paladin/5 Knight Commander / 2 Tumbledumpclasses.

Startingstats

20

(+11 Modifier)

14

(Important that you have 14 WIS on a paladin!!!)

17

(+10 Modifier after 1x Great CHA)

Pre epic Feats

Skill focus Discipline.

Epic Feats

Tumbledump class at 27 or 30.

Notes

...Yeah. That Divine Wrath is a nice ability, but the whole one use per day thing...It's not ideal. A stack of Extended Divine Favours will do you much better. I would go for more Paladin than Divine Champion., unless you are desperate for feats. And considering some of the feats I can read there....Called Shot, Iron Will, Disarm...Some of them are pretty spurious. I think you could do without. You definetly want Divine Shield btw.

If you want those classes, I would go for something more like ....19/5/6.

What OP Said with this addendum

There are Knockdown Rings in the module if you need a Combatfeat.
Do not take more than 10COT Levels, I would never recommend it - Divine Wrath is not that good.

Quote:

Base Attack Bonus: +5
Feats: Skill Focus: Discipline, Toughness
Skills: Discipline 8 ranks, Persuade 4 Ranks, Lore 4 Ranks, Taunt 4 Ranks

I forgot you need Toughness for Knight commander. I amended the build i posted above to include it.

The Clean version of the above would be 24 Paladin 5 KC 1 Monk. When most of your AB comes from spells purely from the pvm standpoint having immunity to Greater Dispels is a Gods Send.

MoshingChris wrote:

The Clean version of the above would be 24 Paladin 5 KC 1 Monk. When most of your AB comes from spells purely from the pvm standpoint having immunity to Greater Dispels is a Gods Send.

A sound advice, something i overlooked (again)

Monk build question (just for my information right now)

If I went 20 levels of pure monk and then 10 levels of Shadow Dancer during epic I have a question or three...

The cap on my Monk AC would be Monk Level which would be +1 AC per 5 monk levels + wis modifier correct?

Also, can hobgoblins be monks?

Simeron wrote:

Monk build question (just for my information right now)

If I went 20 levels of pure monk and then 10 levels of Shadow Dancer during epic I have a question or three...

The cap on my Monk AC would be Monk Level which would be +1 AC per 5 monk levels + wis modifier correct?

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=56807

Quote:

Also, can hobgoblins be monks?

Hobgoblins are Lawful by nature, So i think it suites them. Ask in the lore thread

That is what I was thinking...Hobbers are normally LE so...I will do that.

So my ECL +1 on my proposed bard (settled for 23 bard/5 KC/1 Fighter) forces me to go for 15 base int (bumping to 16) and 12 con while still getting 20 strength. The problem is the stranglehold of feats and skill points.

Pre-epic: Toughness, SF: Discipline, Weapon Focus, Extend/Maximize Spell, Improved Critical, Curse Song, Blind Fight

Epic: Armor Skin, ESF: Perform, EWF, Lasting Inspiration

Skills: 4 Taunt 6 Persuade 4 Lore, 30 Concentration Discipline Spellcraft Tumble, 27 UMD, 33 Perform (14 points left)

If I take Fighter at the get go, I can keep my pre-epic feats. If I save it, something has to go, but I get an extra epic feat. In the end this is feeling really really messy just for the rp flavor, and I'm not sure it's worth doing.

PS: I suppose I could just cut in Divine Champion or Fighter levels instead of going KC to untie some of the messiness. 25bard/4fighter doesn't seem too bad at this point.

Startingstats please?

Bah. Here goes my suggestion anyway.

Startingstats

STR 15 - Pump it to 22
DEX 8
CON 12
WIS 8
INT 14 (Don't need more, Really)
CHA 16 (Taking 18 CHA only give 1x More Mass Haste use / day)

Pre epic Feats

#1 Extend
#2 Blindfight
#3 Curse song
#4 Imp.Critical
#5 Maximize Spell
#6 Wep.Focus
#7 Thoughtness (Required for KC)
#8 Skill focus; Discipline. (Required for KC)

Epic Feats (3 Default Feats + 1 Bard Extra + 1 Fighter Extra)

#1 Epic Wep Focus
#2 Epic Skill focus: Preform
#3 Lasting 'W'Inspiration.

#4 Fighter Extra - Armor Skin

Notes

I do not know what RACE you have. Post it please

Bard29 is still awesome, mind. The damage it does to enemy skills is ridiculous once you get the hang of exploiting the hell out if it. Your ability(and more to the point, your faction/party's ability) to apply Knockdown, Disarm, Taunt, stealth and detection all become absurdly high, and the things it does to people with low UMD and Spellcraft...ouch.

You don't need Epic Skill Focus: Perform on a 23 bard. Only gotta get your Perform to 65 for its fullest potential.

Uberuce wrote:

Bard29 is still awesome, mind.

I kind of kept on coming back to this. It's a hard choice all around. Guess I'll monkey around a bit more and decide.

Quote:

You don't need Epic Skill Focus: Perform on a 23 bard. Only gotta get your Perform to 65 for its fullest potential.

Then it becomes ESF: Discipline. Still feels a bit stretched, but not as bad (I guess).

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