AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

Maglorine wrote:

I will tell you that combining Paladin or Cleric with Knight Commander and Weaponmaster isn't going to work well. WM and KC have 8 combined pre epic feat pre-requisites. Most races only get 7 pre-epic feats, humans get 8. That leaves must have pre epic feats like blindfight and improved critical off the table. Not to mention any feats you might want or need for your base class, like extend spell. Not a good idea.
Thanks!

I apologize. I did mean DC as in Divine Champion but I put down the wrong Acronym due to no coffee. :oops:

Ahh, that's a bit more workable. 19 pally/4dc/7wm is the build. Extend, divine might, divine shield, and extra smiting have to be on paladin levels. Other than that, make sure you have the weaponmaster prereqs and improved crit/blindfight. You wont get many if any great smite feats, but the smites you do have will hit like a truck.

Ah yeah, what Sol suggested.

I was playing around with some builds the other day and I have a question. What is the level of the Owl's insight scrolls you can pick up from the monk's monastery? I was trying to work out a viable two hander build and came up with 9 Monk/13 WM/8 Fighter. You go no armor, two hand a scythe or another equally monstrous weapon, go mostly str based while having 14 dex/wisdom to start. That means you get all your AC from maxing your wisdom and dex, but since the build is still str based you have to max that as well. Even if you use pots it is probably a bit too tight of a build gear wise to actually pull off.

Monks in general are tough to gear. As a strength monk you want str/dex/con/wis all to be as high as possible, while as a dex monk you want dex/str/con/wis to be as high as possible. Here's a thought though, as a strength monk you can go quarterstaff and it be just as monsterous if not more so than all the other two-handed weapons. Weaponmaster optional, but it puts quarterstaff over the top.

Solvaras wrote:

19 pally/4dc/7wm

All of the DC and WM taken Pre epic? Seems like it has a specific feat order to fit everything in. I'm also assuming you max CHA and get 14 WIS and some INT and STR?

Get 18 CHA, so you can buff it to 30 for the ten rounds. That is a pretty universally accepted standard for when it comes to Divine might/shield. Besides having the 14 Wisdom for spells just dump the rest of the points into STR to get the best AB possible.

Ill let Sol comment further on the build, but at a glance I would say that taking the 4th DC level in epic is the way to go. That 4th level grats a bonus feat, in this case great smiting. Besides that the order is mostly going to be paladin first till you get the feats for WM, then besides taking specific paladin levels at certain times to make sure you grab the Paladin only feats everything else is flexible (Those feats being divine might, divine shield, etc).

Edit: Gah. I forgot you are going pure smiter. In that case yeah I would suggest going more CHA than the standard 18. Though there is arguments in both directions. The STR would even you out a bit more vs neutral characters that you can't smite.

Ideally you want 14 str/14wis/13dex/craptonofcharisma and I cant seem to make it work with the weaponmaster requirements. That 13 dodge is putting it off, unless you start using subraces to get the stats you want. Why not a bog standard 19pally/10dc/1 ranger as a smiter? You're putting downrange bigger non crit smites, as well as having room for feats like armor skin and epic weapon focus.

Is the build drastically different between great smiter and the typical divine might build? Is it predominantly just Stat allocation through the levels? I'm not familiar enough with paladins mechanically to differentiate them enough.

Divine Might is even damage throughout with decent CHA and STR with shield to assist in defense, and Great Smiter is one button explosion every once in a while?

If you are really set on going smiter I know a very standard 26 Paladin/2 Fighter/2 Rogue works quite well. You get a total of 8 epic feats (2 fighter, 2 bonus epic pally, 4 standard epic feats). Also your great smiting will be granting 26 bonus damage per feat taken, vs 18 or 19 of the other build. This build is less flexible vs non evil baddies mind you but still fairs ok.

Mercedes wrote:

Is the build drastically different between great smiter and the typical divine might build? Is it predominantly just Stat allocation through the levels? I'm not familiar enough with paladins mechanically to differentiate them enough.

Divine Might is even damage throughout with decent CHA and STR with shield to assist in defense, and Great Smiter is one button explosion every once in a while?

The typical divine might build balances their CHA and STR stats and then uses both divine might/shield to amplify their defense and offense. They usually have absurd damage/AC with solid AB as a result.

A Great Smiter gets a max of 3 Smites per rest and they only work against evil characters, in the case of the paladin. Smite adds your CHA modifier to your AB/Damage, and with the combination of great smiting epic feats + crits you can get 400+ damage a hit easily. Great smiting epic feats only add damage equal to your DC + Paladin levels to your evil smite ability though. So to sum up, Great Smiter is awesome against evil aligned characters and nothing else.

The regular build above should be fine for divine might build then? I like the WM inclusion there. I'm not married to the great smite idea.. just exploring the options!

Thanks for all the correspondence thus far.

Yes it should work just fine for a standard divine might build. The DC is included on the original build for the extra feat potential and the fact the DC stacks with paladin for smiting. Your AC should be great either way, but if you do want to squeeze out some extra power I would suggest picking up 2 levels of rogue or maybe some monk. You would be able to get evasion + tumble dump.

Wm is very heavy on feat investment and paladin doesnt need any help in the damage department. They do have a few mandatory feats though along the way (divine might, shield, power attack, extend spell (?)) so you may sacrifice some fanciful feats to smash both into the build, you are also short changing yourself on 21+pally perks. It would be very difficult to combine smiter and wm, and arguably not worth it when your crit can already be 12-20 and your damage vs evil regardless of ×3-4 crit will be absurd. Not to mention that build as a melee gives up 6 free ac in tumble

So a Paladin / DC combo with 2 monk would be perfectly solid then, better rounded than a WM with the heavy investments. Thanks, evil detecting dog.

Yep, the only differences i can think of would be a rogue alternative

Rogue is unfortunately highly adverse to the character concept despite the many various ways you can spin it. Thank you all for the help!

Aye, it would be much more flexible with the freed up feats. Plus the DC does grant purge infidel on Amia, which adds even more silly damage against people who don't match your alignment. As for exact level ratio it all depends on what you want but 18 Pally/ 10 DC/ 2 Monk is what I would suggest. You will have more feats than you know what to do with and your saves will make you damn near untouchable by anything that requires you to roll.

Only 1 monk level is needed. Make it 19 paladin. That gives you more pally power and better smites.

Solvaras wrote:

Monks in general are tough to gear. As a strength monk you want str/dex/con/wis all to be as high as possible, while as a dex monk you want dex/str/con/wis to be as high as possible. Here's a thought though, as a strength monk you can go quarterstaff and it be just as monsterous if not more so than all the other two-handed weapons. Weaponmaster optional, but it puts quarterstaff over the top.

Yeah. I think the build is flawed though since I don't have access to UMD, actually attempting to max three stats is damn near impossible.

Solvaras wrote:

Only 1 monk level is needed. Make it 19 paladin. That gives you more pally power and better smites.

So where is all this damage coming from, exactly? If Divine Might only gives +10 damage for the CHA modifier, I mean, and lacking the output of WM for the PLD/DC/MNK build. I'm getting 47 AB and 53ish AC (63 with Divine Shield). Crits are okay if I pick up overpowering, but otherwise ....

You should be getting over +20 to damage when you combine the CHA from divine might and your STR modifier. On top of the standard +4 enchantment, elemental damage, flame weapon, and whatever else you have packed on your weapon you should be hitting for 40s.

Did not take flame weapon and other such mods into account, silly me. Thanks again! Also, is it horribly better to do Sword and Board for the tons of AC rather than two-handed?

Mercedes wrote:

Did not take flame weapon and other such mods into account, silly me. Thanks again! Also, is it horribly better to do Sword and Board for the tons of AC rather than two-handed?

Sword and shield > All. It is the sad truth of the NWN system and its mechanics. AC is just superior to everything else. Only DwDs with 600+ HP and an absurd amount of DR make it work well, and it still is subpar compared to sword and board.

Judging now whether its worth it to go LS/BS and Shield or stick it out with Greatsword until Monkeygrip.

Well if there was ever a class that could afford to lose a bit of stats to swing around a greatsword one handed it definitely would be a Paladin! You are already rocking stats that battle clerics have to spend half an hour buffing to even get close to obtaining.

Is the difference between 26 and 28 Wisdom so profound that it is worth 2 epic feats?

Nope. One epic feat to bring strength, or another attribute, from 25 to 26 isn't wasted but to give up 2 epic feats to only receive the +1 modifier is -usually- a waste.

That's subjective. Bringing a casting stat up +1 for more spell slots and higher DC isn't exactly a waste.

True it is very subjective but usually you can take Epic Spell Focus or an Epic Spell instead. Clerics/Druids usually aren't swimming in too many extra epic feats to spare. So here is a better question, what exactly is your build? What epic feats are you already taking into account?

29 Cleric, 1 Wizard.

Epic Focus: Necromancy
Epic Focus: Evocation
Epic Spell Penetration
Epic Spell: Mummy Dust
Great Wisdom I (To round it up)

Richard_Edmund wrote:

29 Cleric, 1 Wizard.

Epic Focus: Necromancy
Epic Focus: Evocation
Epic Spell Penetration
Epic Spell: Mummy Dust
Great Wisdom I (To round it up)

Alright awesome. I am guessing you are going the caster cleric route? You do still have EDK, Greater Ruin, and Hellball open for you to take. Greater Ruin/Hellball give you solid killing power. Hellball on Amia has been changed so it doesn't knock down allies, so it is worth considering now imo. If you are completely disinterested in those two spells though then two more Great Wisdoms will be better than anything else that is offered. Armor Skin, maybe, and Improved Combat Casting are the only other two feats that come to mind that might be potentially useful for you.

Without Epic Conjuration, EDK is as useless as tits on a bull. Imp. Combat Casting is pretty much null with Concentration gloves (and requires pre-epic combat casting, AFAIK). As important as it is, her AC is pitifully low even with Armour Skin, making it pointless. So i'd have to put money on Ruin or Hellball.

Yeah agreed. I just offered up the others to show you what was on the table but I personally favor Greater Ruin/Hellball. That is 100d6 of damage from the two combined. There are some casters on the server who would melt under just Greater Ruin.

Always figured it's usually the level 9 spells and lower that kill you, instead of the Epic Spells.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Hellball on Amia has been changed so it doesn't knock down allies, so it is worth considering now imo.

This has been changed for a few years now, but instincts still kick in when I see it casted by an ally and I run like hell......

Like Maverick said, those two in combination are great finishers and ruin has a bot page to make it more versatile. Epic spell pen seems overkill to me. If you've got 29 caster levels, plus I'm assuming spell pen and greater spell pen, only monks have a chance to resist your spells and that's only if they're pimping out the greater spell resistance feats.

Considering her 250 odd hp and 9 AC, I want there to be a minimal chance that anyone is going to survive a barrage of powerful spells long enough to crit her into -250hp.

Solvaras wrote:

This has been changed for a few years now, but instincts still kick in when I see it casted by an ally and I run like hell......

Same. If it is casted in general I run like a little girl.

Richard_Edmund wrote:

Considering her 250 odd hp and 9 AC, I want there to be a minimal chance that anyone is going to survive a barrage of powerful spells long enough to crit her into -250hp.

Yeah you should be more than capable with Greater Ruin/Hellball backing up your normal spells. Just remember you have Haven so you can Haven up then buff up + put distance between you and the aggressor before letting loose the pain.

Richard, you're on the right track here. Take more painful epic spells so that you can tos them dow on a big post and then spam spells like earthquake and fear and other forms of significant crowd control, if you get it via domains, horrid wilting is another ranged damage spell you can't completely negate as well. I wouldn't even bother with death spells personally, unless you're in PvE or your opponent is known for their lore fort. Most people can make a DC 40 Fort so you wanna hit telex our will add often as possible. Necromancers get to duo that with the awesome power of fear, fighters usually don't bother with Spellcraft for done reason and often can't even make a DC 30 will save. That makes them Swiss cheese to your other abilities once you have them trapped.

And remember, haste and haven see your best friends add a caster.

I wanna play a melee mage so bad, but can't stand the thought of a wizard in armor swinging a sword and shield.
Is there any other viable melee mage build, say that uses monk or master scout or anything other than fighter (or div champ). I dig the image of a mage whipping around a quarter staff, so monk appeals. I have a wiz/monk build on paper, but no idea if it's practical.
Open to suggestions.

Post what you have and we can try to make it work if that is what you want. The only issue I see going Monk/Wizard or Monk/Sorc is you are running into an issue of overextending your stat points. The reason Wizard/Fighter/Rogue or Sorc/Pally or BG/Rogue work well is because not only is there some minor attribute synergy happening, mostly in the latter build, but the heavy plate lets you not have to worry about maxing Dex or Wisdom for AC. If you go Dex based mele Mage/Monk you now have to worry about getting Dex/Wisdom/Con/Int as high as possible. If you want to go STR based Mele Mage/Monk for more damage you are looking at Str/Dex/Wisdom/Con/Int to all worry about. While going the Wizard/Fighter route means you now only have to worry about Str/Con/Int. Does that make a bit of sense?

The biggest question I have is: how important is UMD? Do I need to take 1 Rogue to get it?
Basic Wiz/Monk build idea is Wiz 24 / Monk 6. But this has no UMD.
If UMD's really important, that changes the build to either: Wiz 23 / Monk 6 / Rog 1 -or- Wiz 24 / Monk 5 / Rog 1. The first loose Greater Dispel immunity, the 2nd loses IKD, 1 AC and 10% speed. I could regain IKD with 2 feats, but need to have that figured out before I start.
So it all comes down to UMD. Suggestions?

I think a mage could do without UMD. Granted, I don't know epic gear so well (is there much 'fighter only' gear or whatever around?). But most people need UMD because they can't cast spells and need scrolls. It's a pain not to have UMD on a non-caster, but as a mage I think you could skip it. I'd also agree your stats are gonna be too thin.

Pretty much what Casvenx has said regarding UMD. Since you are mage you will already be able to use most of the scrolls and important magic stuff by default.

As a mage you wont need umd.......until you come across that one item that is completely awesome, but alignment restricted. Then you'll be wishing you'd have it. As for maxing out stats on gear, since you'll have maximize spell (you should) you'll have +5 on any useful stat, so it makes it a whole lot easier to gear. If you look up Naivatkal on this topic, I believe they've posted a spell staff build that's useable.

Solvaras wrote:

As a mage you wont need umd.......until you come across that one item that is completely awesome, but alignment restricted. Then you'll be wishing you'd have it.

My concern exactly. I have so little knowledge of epic gear out there, I'd kick myself into next year if I found an item I couldn't use cuz no UMD. I didn't find Naiv's post, so I'll PM him. Thanks for the tip.

1. I personally would say that is worth the trade off. A mord's will strip you of buffs no matter what and UMD is pretty nice.

2. Impro Crit. Yes it is only one threat range but since you are going to have hordes of self buffs and AC I doubt that 1 save will make into play often. Obviously either will work though if you really do favor strong soul.

Also to note, I don't think I have ever seen an alignment or class restricted epic loot. Mind you though I am not a heavy loot farmer, etc so someone better might be able to comment on that.

I'm fairly certain the epic gloves are class-restriction.

Spellcraft/Concnetration gloves being casters-only, but I think that's it

Whoops, could have sworn it was Nav..........

On a plain human, Wizard 25/monk3/rogue2 will give you everything you need. Build it like a spellsword, just focus in quarterstaff. Take rogue at level 1 for more skill points. Monk 3 and your last level of rogue in epic. This gives you umd, immunity to greater dispell, better familiar, and more skill points. All monk 6 gives you is improved knockdown, and I assure you that you have plenty of feats pre-epic to take it. It's a late blooming build. You want your stats at the end to have 20 str/20 int base. dex/con/wis can be put at 10.

Vortex, Wizard 24/monk 6 is a super fun build, monk gives you cleave, evasion, improved knockdown, and lots of saves and you get 6 attacks per round with a two handed weapon doing damage higher than almost any other variant of spell sword while maintaining a decent ac with a combination of wisdom and dexterity. The only serious problem the build has are it's high dependence on a tin of stats. It's a pain to level and a massive pain to gear, and it's fit lower saves and hp than just about any other caster build because it's gear has no room for con and fort. It's a lot of fun in pve but in pvp most caaters or dev critters will make your life miserable. It does a decent job of chewing up Dex builds though, since they need to change you to hurt you, and you get redundant hp forum tensers on top of having damage shields to choose from.

It's a unique build I've seen in action and it's a lot of fun, you just need to know what you're good at fighting before you fight it is all.

Another fun spell sword (if you can be bothered to monkey with it) is wizard/wm. Hell you could probably combine the two for a wizard21/wm7/monk2 if you don't mind the loss of 6 ac but I seriously wouldn't recommend it.

The plain old wizard/fighter/rogue is pretty tried and true though, so if you do decide to go with that you'll still have plenty of fun.

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