AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

New thread.

First thing you do: www.nwnwiki.com

Second thing you do: Post your best try at a build!

I love the idea of the Master Scout class that is coming out, so I'm trying to loosely plan a build that can encompass it when the HAK is out. I've left two feats in Epic levels, one to take the MS exclusive feat (Whatever that is), the other because I'm not sure exactly what will be on the bonus list. Whatever it is, I'm sure there'll be something useful. This is basically the Abilities/Levels/Feats. More than enough skillpoints to spread wherever I need to.

My concerns are that I don't have KD/IKD, so once he's come out of hiding, he'd rely too much on someone else to Knockdown or take aggro. Any thoughts/improvements?

Wild Elf
6 Fighter / 5 MS / 19 Rogue

14 STR
20 DEX
8 CON (Becomes 10)
8 WIS
14 INT (Becomes 12)
8 CHA

Weapons are either Shortswords or Handaxes.

1 Rogue Blindfight
2 Fighter (F- Weapon Finesse)
3 Fighter Focus Listen (F- Wep Focus)
4 Fighter
5 Fighter (F- Wep Spec) <- 8 Discipline here.
6 Rogue Focus Spot
7 Rogue
8 Rogue
9 Rogue Ambidex
10 Rogue
11 Rogue
12 Rogue Two Wep
13 Rogue
14 Rogue (R- Imp Evasion)
15 Rogue Imp Two Wep
16 Rogue
17 Rogue (R- Defensive Roll)
18 Rogue Imp Crit
19 Rogue
20 Rogue (R- Crip Strike) <- Make sure skills are ready.

21 MS Epic Wep Focus (S Feat)
22 MS
23 MS
24 MS Armor Skin
25 MS (S Feat)
26 Fighter
27 Fighter Epic Prowess (F- Epic Spec)
28 Rogue
29 Rogue
30 Rogue Gr Dex (R- Epic Dodge)

Uh, I said it was a bonus epic feat not available to any others, meaning it's not on any other class bonus feat lists. Don't get your hopes about it being a unique feat.

Ahh, I see... Likely there for a reason though! So long as it's not 'Bleed Profusely', to keep some of the Harper Scout's flavour.

That is almost the exact build I came up with except my stats were a bit different. He was a human, or possibly an air genasi. I took IDK and great fort instead of the three duel wielding feats (A nice buckler will give him an extra 5 ac). Being a human, I also took alertness for two more spot/listen.

Monk8/Fighter2/BG10 pre-epic

Quote:

10 4 16 Blackguard

Is set-up as a finesse build. You cannot get higher than 6 CON if you want the entire BG trick bag.

12 -> 14 Str
18 Dex
6 CON
12 -> 10 INT
14 Wis
14 CHA

Question; This does seem a very intriguing build with all the devlish goodness, but I'm wonder if it seems like it's too much to cover? I mean, the DEX makes up for the Wis so he can have a decent AC, but it seems like I'd have to focus on DEX,CON, and CHA. I'm not complaining by no means, but I'm just curious if my current build (20monk/1rog/9BG) would be better? I'm wanting him to have more BG levels, but not at the sacrifice of making him even wimpier. Not his style lol.

Potions, BG spells, Aura of Glory off an amulet, it's easy enough, but a bit bothersome.

I suppose. I guess the Woodelf Monk/BG wasn't the smartest combo.

Personally I think you might want to skip on reaching for divine might/shield, stretches you too thin on feats and stats. You'll literally want everything on a build like that. For pre epic feats, you'll want:
Weapon Finesse, Blind Fight, Weapon Focus, IMPR Crit, Two weapon fighting, Ambidexterity, IMPR TWF, Power attack, Divine Might, Divine shield.
With the fighter feats, you'll be able to get that. Barely.
14/14/8/14/14/14
1 Monk, 1 Fighter, 6 Monk, 10 BG, 1 Monk, 1 Fighter, 3 BG, 1 Monk, 1 BG, 2 Fighter, 2 BG, 1 monk
1: Two Weapon Fighting
1: Blind Fight
2*: Weapon Finesse
3: Weapon Focus (Kama?)
6: Ambidextrity
9: Power Attack
12: IMPR TWF
15: Divine Might
18: Divine Shield
20*: IMPR Crit
21: Armor Skin
23*: EWF
24: EProwess
27: Weapon Specialization
27*: Epic Weapon Specialization
29*: Epic BG Fiend
30: G-Dex 1
14/22/8/14/14/14
AB: 17+5+4+12+5(enh)-2(dual) = 41

AB is the main concern I think. You'll get 8 attacks un-hasted but you'll need some buffs to hit stuff. Damage should be quite nice if you can hit, +6 from EWS, +8 maxed divine might, and 5d6 sneak attacks. AC Should also be reasonably good.

You could get 1 more AB/AC by dropping INT by 4 to raise DEX by two, but that will leave you skills-light. If you want to drop divine might/shield you can likely squeeze a few more points of DEX in there too. (Could also play a tiefling if you don't want to max CHA)

Pre or post class changes Moshiepoo?

The1Kobra wrote:

Personally I think you might want to skip on reaching for divine might/shield, stretches you too thin on feats and stats. You'll literally want everything on a build like that. For pre epic feats, you'll want:
Weapon Finesse, Blind Fight, Weapon Focus, IMPR Crit, Two weapon fighting, Ambidexterity, IMPR TWF, Power attack, Divine Might, Divine shield.
With the fighter feats, you'll be able to get that. Barely.
14/14/8/14/14/14
1 Monk, 1 Fighter, 6 Monk, 10 BG, 1 Monk, 1 Fighter, 3 BG, 1 Monk, 1 BG, 2 Fighter, 2 BG, 1 monk
1: Two Weapon Fighting
1: Blind Fight
2*: Weapon Finesse
3: Weapon Focus (Kama?)
6: Ambidextrity
9: Power Attack
12: IMPR TWF
15: Divine Might
18: Divine Shield
20*: IMPR Crit
21: Armor Skin
23*: EWF
24: EProwess
27: Weapon Specialization
27*: Epic Weapon Specialization
29*: Epic BG Fiend
30: G-Dex 1
14/22/8/14/14/14
AB: 17+5+4+12+5(enh)-2(dual) = 41

AB is the main concern I think. You'll get 8 attacks un-hasted but you'll need some buffs to hit stuff. Damage should be quite nice if you can hit, +6 from EWS, +8 maxed divine might, and 5d6 sneak attacks. AC Should also be reasonably good.

You could get 1 more AB/AC by dropping INT by 4 to raise DEX by two, but that will leave you skills-light. If you want to drop divine might/shield you can likely squeeze a few more points of DEX in there too. (Could also play a tiefling if you don't want to max CHA)

I like what you did, but I'm wanting to go fists. It'd save on feats. How would that work out? The DMG would be better I think. More feats yea? I'd want to keep the INT where it is.

Fists would have some benefits, but also has it's costs. Firsts, if you want good unarmed damage, you'll want 16 Monk for the 1d20, otherwise you're capping at base 1d12, ouch. On this vein, it's also impossible to get 16 monk for the unarmed damage AND keep the epic BG fiend at BG 16. Next, it makes you even more gear tight, the character will already want to max DEX, WIS, and CHA, you lose the gloves slot.

All in all, if you want to make a monk/BG, unless you're only getting 4 BG or something, I'd stick with weapons.

Hm. Well, we'll scrap the fists I suppose. Not exactly what I was hoping for. *Le sigh*

I'm wondering why 16 BG 10 Rogue 4 Fighter is the best Blackguard heavy build possible on a 30 cap server in comparison to a 16 BG 12 Fighter 2 Rogue ?

Or it really depends ?

You will have more ab and more feats with the second one.

Lutra wrote:

You will have more ab and more feats with the second one.

Agreed so far ! Thanks.

The 16 BG / 10 R / 4 F will do more damage using sneak attack. If you build it 'right', you're looking at the loss of 2 AB for an additional 4d6 in sneak damage, plus crippling strike, or improved evasion, or...whatever bonus Rogue feat you take...not to mention 80 more skill points (although it appears I just DID mention it).

Strictly comes down to style of play, and what combo fits the RP better.

Moonfighter wrote:

Wild Elf
6 Fighter / 5 MS / 19 Rogue

14 STR
20 DEX
8 CON (Becomes 10)
8 WIS
14 INT (Becomes 12)
8 CHA

Weapons are either Shortswords or Handaxes.

1 Rogue Blindfight
2 Fighter (F- Weapon Finesse)
3 Fighter Focus Listen (F- Wep Focus)
4 Fighter
5 Fighter (F- Wep Spec) <- 8 Discipline here.
6 Rogue Focus Spot
7 Rogue
8 Rogue
9 Rogue Ambidex
10 Rogue
11 Rogue
12 Rogue Two Wep
13 Rogue
14 Rogue (R- Imp Evasion)
15 Rogue Imp Two Wep
16 Rogue
17 Rogue (R- Defensive Roll)
18 Rogue Imp Crit
19 Rogue
20 Rogue (R- Crip Strike) <- Make sure skills are ready.

21 MS Epic Wep Focus (S Feat)
22 MS
23 MS
24 MS Armor Skin
25 MS (S Feat)
26 Fighter
27 Fighter Epic Prowess (F- Epic Spec)
28 Rogue
29 Rogue
30 Rogue Gr Dex (R- Epic Dodge)

Personally, I HATE when people show their builds in a "level by level" progression, it never needs to be leveled EXACTLY like that so why bother. Just put what classes you take pre epic and epic, in epic though sometimes you do need to take those classes in a specific order, at least the more interesting builds you do.

A more reader friendly format I find is one I used on PVP servers like so:

18 Fighter 4 Rogue 7 Weapon Master
Human-Tiefling

Starting Stats:
Str 18
Dex 12-14
Con 14
Wis 8
Int 12-14
Cha 8-6

Pre Epic Classes:
13 Fighter 7 Weapon Master

Pre Epic Feats:8
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack
Great Cleave
Improved Expertise
Cleave
Skill Focus (Discipline)
Knockdown
Improved Knockdown

Fighter Bonus Feats:7
Power Attack
Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
Improved Critical (Scimitar)
Dodge
Mobility
Expertise

Epic Classes:
5 Fighter 4 Rogue

Epic Feats:3
Epic Weapon Focus: (Scimitar)
Great Strength I
Overwhelming Critical (Scimitar)

Fighter Bonus Feats:3
Armorskin
Epic Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
Devastating Critical (Scimitar)

Ending Stats:
Str 26
Dex 10-12
Con 14
Wis 8
Int 14-16
Cha 8-6

And voila, simple and easy to read.
For those who don't know why I split it up into pre epic and epic its because of BAB(base attack bonus). When taking classes pre epic always try to keep it in groups of 4 so you don't lose BAB. In this instance Weapon Master and Fighter are both high BAB classes so it doesn't matter that I put 13 and 7 because he still gets 20 BAB at level 20. After level 20 all classes gain the same BAB as well as saves so you also want to take that into consideration when making your build

Welp, this thread isn't really for format picking sooooo......

Yeah, build help hoooooooo!!!!!!

As far as the monk/bg build... Could consider no dire mace. You wont get the extra attacks but a greatsword or greataxe looks great as well. And is unique for monks. Do whatever the deity BG will follow likes.

Oh mn dire maces look so cool but they'reso bad...

As far as Draco's build though. 4 rogue is not worth losing another epic feat. 20 fighter 2 rogue 7 wm. You lose 1d6 sneak... you're a wm you dont use sneaks to kill. And some skill points to gain an epic feat. EPIC PROWESS.

Just ask tormak how important epic prowess is on a wm!

I am driven to make a paladin of <blank>, who fits into the kind of action hero type that goes on his solo adventures, plunging into dungeons and remote hell holes to purge dargonz and undieds from the world, making it a better place (I'm not asking for a power build, honest!). My knee-jerk reaction was paladin/divine champion/weapon master as an expression of his killing proficiency, but it feels like I'm stretching myself too thin that way.

Removing WM for rogue or master scout (or even removing paladin for that matter) feels like the thing to do, and taking DC could even keep the flavor of a 'holy man' on his little crusades. I could dick with it for days due to indecision, but I'd rather ask for informed opinions (or something I hadn't thought of yet) on the matter to help whittle down potential builds.

If it really comes to it though, I'll just dick with it for days.

GreatPigeon wrote:

As far as Draco's build though. 4 rogue is not worth losing another epic feat. 20 fighter 2 rogue 7 wm. You lose 1d6 sneak... you're a wm you dont use sneaks to kill. And some skill points to gain an epic feat. EPIC PROWESS.

Just ask tormak how important epic prowess is on a wm!

Fighter 15/Rogue 2/WM 13 is still far superior, though :3

He's a tiefer. It would be 14/13/2 And yes. It would be far superior. But its up to him.

I cant beleive I even commented on a Dev Crit Scimmy WM.... But I did, sadly. Shame on me.

All I run is Deving Scimmiers with Hips, fool
Even my wizzy and cleric

The build was just an example, and it also depends on tactics which is what I made that based around initially, yes they don't rely on sneaks to kill but it comes in VERY handy when you KD someone. One thing you also managed to miss as to WHY I took 4 Rogue, I was going for 3 Rogue for the Evasion not for sneaks, which really is a "must have" in any solid build. But if you want to sacrifice that feat which will save your ass on more than one occasion as well as skills to help make your build more well rounded for a couple AB then go nuts :lol:

I would sacrifice Epic Prowess for Evasion any day of the week, this build is well rounded and balanced, not a glass cannon

Oooh.. greatswords.. greataxes or even halberd :3 The AC would be pretty nifty too

@Arcadence

Wait for the new classes. Pally 21 Fighter 4 Knight 5 might work.

Ðraco wrote:

The build was just an example, and it also depends on tactics which is what I made that based around initially, yes they don't rely on sneaks to kill but it comes in VERY handy when you KD someone. One thing you also managed to miss as to WHY I took 4 Rogue, I was going for 3 Rogue for the Evasion not for sneaks, which really is a "must have" in any solid build. But if you want to sacrifice that feat which will save your ass on more than one occasion as well as skills to help make your build more well rounded for a couple AB then go nuts :lol:

I would sacrifice Epic Prowess for Evasion any day of the week, this build is well rounded and balanced, not a glass cannon

Er, Evasion is a level 2 feat for Rogues >_>

maybe uncanny dodge he means? flat footed ac is a pain for anything lacking that one.

ed: problem solved, no worries gang.

Tee hee whoops, not the first time I mixed feats up, I would drop 2 rogue in that case, 13 WM is just a waste though imho, not worth sacrificing 2 feats and six levels for 1 AB and a feat. You could just as easily drop the Epic Weapon Specialization for that extra AB if ya felt so inclined. Again the build was built more for tactics, hits hard and fast, it'll have 2 less AB than your version but hits a hell of a lot harder. But to each his own

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

The 16 BG / 10 R / 4 F will do more damage using sneak attack. If you build it 'right', you're looking at the loss of 2 AB for an additional 4d6 in sneak damage, plus crippling strike, or improved evasion, or...whatever bonus Rogue feat you take...not to mention 80 more skill points (although it appears I just DID mention it).

Strictly comes down to style of play, and what combo fits the RP better.

But you will be loosing feats, right ? You won't be able to build a Dev Crit using a Bastard Sword (in my opinion, BS is a must for blackguards) ?

BG 16 gets 5d6 sneak and rogue 10 5d6 and Rogue 4 gets 2d6
In summary:
16/10 (BG/RG) = 10d6
16/4 (BG/RG) = 7d6
The difference would be 3d6. Am I right ? Or Rogue get something different from what it's on NWNWIKI ?

Plus:
lvl 12 figther = 12 bonus feats.
lvl 4 fighter = 3 bonus feats
lvl 10 rogue = 1 bonus feat

It will be impossible to build a Dev Crit in that build.

Alright, I'm finding the whole Monk/BG thing to not be working out like I thought it would lol. So instead, I think dropping the BG would be good

I'm curious. The Monk abilities in game from the teacher have a DC based off the Wisdom, yea?

*cough* Find out the hard way like everyone else? *cough*

To be fair, knowing how DC of an ability is calculated should be open knowledge...

It's Wisdom.

Comeon Dustspray and Blackdragon - It's a builder's ADVICE topic, Not a topic where you can frown upon people for not knowing certain aspects of the game.

Show some respect, ay?

Anyhow - For future reference use http://www.Nwnwiki.com

Sin4given wrote:

Alright, I'm finding the whole Monk/BG thing to not be working out like I thought it would lol. So instead, I think dropping the BG would be good

I'm curious. The Monk abilities in game from the teacher have a DC based off the Wisdom, yea?

Afaik - I have never tried, but having a WIS Based Monk could be quite handy considering how many Monk abilities there exist. Not to mention that Monk AC from Wisdom is not subject to your PC getting Flatfooted, Like DEX AC is.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Comeon Dustspray and Blackdragon - It's a builder's ADVICE topic, Not a topic where you can frown upon people for not knowing certain aspects of the game.

Show some respect, ay?

Anyhow - For future reference use http://www.Nwnwiki.com

Err...did you even read my comment?

I was disagreeing with Dustspray *sigh*

The Monk techniques are nifty wee things, but nothing you should build around. WIS 14 is adequate for what little you benefit from them.

Well, I wasn't going to build around them persay because using the ability sort of takes up a whole round. I was just wondering because it could add some flavor to an idea I have in mind.

I do like the idea of a WIS monk being the ultimate tank, but I'd like to be able to inflict some decent damage.

I have a few ideas in mind that would fit my current PC when and if he gets rebuilt..

Monk 16/Rog 10/ Ftr 4. More of a Dex based fighter with Crippling strike and invest some skill points in hide?

Monk 21/ 6 ftr/ 3 rog. STR based using fists

Or even, Monk 22/ Ranger 2/ 6 Ftr. A WIS build with spot using kamas

and last, monk 25/ fighter 4/ Rogue 1. I haven't thought much about this one but to be honest if I went that many Monk levels I'd have the urge to make it a STR build.

Above are just some of the combinations I've had in mind. I'd first like to know if some of them are even do-able. I sometimes forget certain things about classes and restrictions

The monk things are a bit of a double-edged sword. Higher wisdom nets a higher DC, but a lot of them (or even all of them) still need to land the touch attack so dex/str are required too.

Yea, that's sort of the problem I had with trying to add BG. just adds even more stuff to try and max, which then just becomes a nuisance.

That's why if I did choose or focus on going STR, I'd have at least 14 WIS and alot of it would be in STR. I'd invest feats in helping pump it up and then the items used to up the STR and WIS stat wouldn't need to be so dispersed.

You could just stock up on True Strike potions and use them before attempting to stun fist someone

Very_Svensk wrote:

Comeon Dustspray and Blackdragon - It's a builder's ADVICE topic, Not a topic where you can frown upon people for not knowing certain aspects of the game.

Show some respect, ay?

Anyhow - For future reference use http://www.Nwnwiki.com

Respect is shown, simply stating that posting it detracts from the fun of discovery IMO. Respectfully, pike off as it wasn't a bash to them not knowing.

In any case, monk wise, I am finding that:
Monk 16/fighter 4 pre-epic is fairly nice if you wish to throw out more punches.

monks are always tricky to make, going pure dex and wisdom nets you a ton of ac but then you might miss some of those spell resistance feats, of which you need 3? to stop pure wizards in their tracks, mostly...not to mention you would also miss over crit and several other strength based feats for your 7 hits in a row combo, falcon PUNCH! >_>

also can't weapon master fists, kama's maybe could work but...cheese pizza build. if you want a kama monk go for it but its against my religion to even make one xD

the last 'pure' monk I made on amia was a strength type build, lacking entirely in wisdom frankly because I forgot, not much you can do about that if your aiming for dev crit however. at level 30 the action is ungodly but, thats the problem. balancing the monk through the levels is a difficult thing to do.

I would personally go 16 monk/4 fighter, and then one more fighter on a level with a feat to grab epic weapon spec unarmed, the rest monk, so 25/5. this nets you a couple of extra potential attacks without going overboard with kama's. frankly unarmed monks need the BAB thing...

where AC comes in, you should remember no shields, +2 base dex (+8 max) at the least, aswell as some wisdom, if only from items if your going strength, but some. give or take you can nudge your ac up about 30 points this way and still have room for at least over crit. oh yea, monks get tumble.

I think true strike pots are a good idea also since the AB isn't terribly awesome compared to say fighter/wm/rogue (something i've been working on..)

in essence, its probably best NOT to go pure strength, balance it out and give it some spice with the third class you pick.

regarding combo's you may not have thought of and restrictions, don't forget monks MUST be lawful, so no monk/bards, you may however not have considered monk/pally

Is the 25/5 monk/fighter truly better than say a 16/4/10 monk/fighter/rogue?

The tankiest Monk isn't the WIS, it's the DEXer with Rogue10 or SD5 popped on for Epic Dodge. I've got one in Monk20/Rogue10, as does Op, and while the damage output is very Sneak-dependent, they're pretty annoying to catch. 60+AC unbuffed, Epic Dodge, Reflex in the mid-30's without trying, no real need for Will saves, so you only have Fort to buff out and it's not that low to begin with.

I've played a pure Monk STR-base and he was alright. Would have been on 44SR but I got bored of his RP.

Most fun one was Monk21/Ftr4/DwD5, STR-base. Very solid DPS chap with 60+AC in Stance, buggy as that may be. No UMD is a major pain, though.

I would imagine a STR-base Monk21/Ftr6/Rogue3 is very enjoyable.

I'm curious on the 20 monk/10 rog one now

The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

Who is online