Also some food for thought. If you go the more traditional route of Wizard/Fighter/Rogue you could always still go Dex based (which I think most people go anyways now) and use any weapon besides the sword/shield. That would remove you from the whole armored wizard with a sword and board that disgusts you.
...The only serious problem the build has are it's high dependence on a tin of stats. It's a pain to level and a massive pain to gear, and it's fit lower saves and hp than just about any other caster build because it's gear has no room for con and fort. It's a lot of fun in pve but in pvp most caaters or dev critters will make your life miserable....
Thanks for the input guys. I'm not at all familiar with epic levels/gear, and maybe I'm being naive, but it doesn't seem that hard to gear. Mage spells give +5 to all stats, Tenser's give another 1d4 to Str/Dex/Con. Wis only needs to get to 22, that's just +3 over Owl's Wis spell, should be easy enough with Monk gear. I admit I've never worried about gearing or maxing anything out, or power building. It's an RP build but I want it to be as capable as possible. He's a mystic, alchemist, gnostic OCD, so divination is important, as are craft wand and brew potion.
Ok... so I have this idea. Concept for a character really. I'd like to run the build by all you folks and see what you think. The idea is... Naturey Knight. Not really a Ranger, more a dedicated protector of the forest and the balance. As such, I wanted something that required minimal buffing to be battle-ready, but also a character that can be somewhat self-sufficient.
So... the Paladin/DC/Master Scout...
So, pre-epic it's 10 paladin and 10 DC
Epics, 5 more DC and 5 MS
Strength and CHA based, should max STR to 36 and CHA to 28 (If I give up some CON, I can get 30).
Divine Might and Divine Shield are the ways to get decent AC (60-61 + Expertise using +4 gear) and Damage (Divine Might, Purge Infidel, Divine Wrath, and Smiting).
Sadly, no evasion. I've done this before and regretted it in certain areas, namely the Frost Giants.
Character would have 11 WIS, enough to make the requirement for Paladin, but, only enough for level 1 spells. With only 10 levels of paladin, I didn't think the spells were a big deal.
Why Paladin? Base melee class with immune to fear and ability to gain Divine Might and Divine Shield. Why DC? Feats and Saves This char will have a FORT of 38 and REF and WILL of 30 without gear. Why MS? Ability to make essences and potions, bombs? Eh, not so much. Also, two bonus feats.
Not sure I explained it super well, but, as an idea, what do you think?
Flavor wise, Ranger/DC might fit better than Paladin, since they're melee characters who work out some sort of dogma and are granted a limited spell selection from said deity.
I realize that but... changing to Ranger pretty much decimates everything else about the character's build. Still, just a thought, and thanks for your input.
With ten paladin you get access to level 2 spells. I would suggest you put that Wisdom to 12 so you can get access to them. Those spells even at level 10 last a good 10 turns and would save you on potions/gear.
It is pretty good. It helps vs traps and certain spells. It is one of those things that I -always- try and include in a mele build along with things such as blind fight, tumble, and UMD.
You will survive without it. Just have to be a bit more self aware. For instance don't run across the spike spells in the Fire Giants. Just actively avoid running across ground based traps/spell and you will be fine.
Was thinking of going dev-critting rapier/scimitar..
Stats:
STR 18 RDD +2 Dex 10 Con 8 RDD +2 Int 14 RDD +2 Wis 10 Cha 12 RDD +2
Took a look at the custom spells for Blackguard... So, was thinking of upping the WIS a bit, but unsure what to lose. >.<'
16 levels BG gets the epic summon. Drop the Dex to 8 imo.
_________________ Ciroc Kilgrave: The patriarch of a family of covetors. Mournal the Guardian: A loyal killer for a mad mistress. Kuurg the Vandal: An inspiration to savage glory.
RDD gets +4 STR in total, which makes dev crit significantly easier.
Start STR at 16. That gives you 6 more points to shift stats at chargen. Drop 4 into WIS, and 2 into DEX or CON. RDD brings STR up to 20, put 6 points from levels into STR, and take Dev Crit on level 27. OR, put 5 points into STR, and the other two into CHA.
With Blackguard unless you're making abb Eric fiend build less is more. I would personally go bard12/bg8/rdd10 if rdd bg is your thing. Your dev crit dc becomes equivalent to 44 with your 30 base str, curse song, and aura of despair
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
Going for more than 8 bg and taking less than sixteen hurts. That strength modifier gives you extra damage and attack bonus to boot. And you want as much of that as you can get on any build using classes with a 3/4 attack progression. More bard also gives your curse song abb extra kick, lowering their ac, ab, and saves.
My recommendation is one it the few strength builds I like for PvP.
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
The Lawful Evil fiend is the strongest summon on amia. I've seen it go toe to toe with the winter wight. Though the Winter Wight has the benefit of a pale master buffing it, which makes it stronger than a blackguard can easily accomplish with their own buffs.
But unbuffed the Amnizu wins every time.
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
Honestly, the NE fiend is kind of rubbish. Bad spells and wonky feats combined with caster AI makes for something that will lose against an IX summon with depressing regularity.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
The Lawful Evil fiend is the strongest summon on amia. I've seen it go toe to toe with the winter wight. Though the Winter Wight has the benefit of a pale master buffing it, which makes it stronger than a blackguard can easily accomplish with their own buffs.
But unbuffed the Amnizu wins every time.
To be fair Winter Wight is one of those summons that only really shines when under the full buffing might of a PM. I am guessing for balance reasons.
Oh I totally agree. And part of the reason a buffed winter wight is so nasty is because it has a higher potential to be buffed. The Amnizu already casts it own black staff and has a few extra buffs on it already so not everything you cast will be taken into account. But boy is it fun to watch that thing go, it rarely gets killed by things in PvE because it has respectable DR, SR, regenration, and its own black staff while critting for about 130.
If you want to have fun with your summon, the LE Amnizu is the way to go. The rest are kind of iffy. The NE caster uses spells that aren't very good for most of its summon duration and the CE succubus has an abyssal attack bonus, making its sneak attack dice less than useful. Otherwise, if you decide you don't really want a summon I would highly recommend you not take blackguard into epic levels. Heck I wouldn't even recommend you take more than enough to get you 7 or 8 charisma modifier so you can focus on strength. Blackguard really falls short when compared to the self buffing abilities of the paladin, so you want to rely on other class features to do your job.
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
Ok... I need some advice. I wanted Chance to be more "warrior", right now he's 23 cleric/5 fighter/2 rogue. Problem is, it takes him several minutes to buff up and without those buffs... he's awful. Yes, the life of a spellblade, I know.
Well... I am trying to get him a rebuild, and... I'm learning what might and might not work out (get approved). I am guessing his final build should have cleric in it. I wanted Paladin (seems DM's likely won't approve), but, cleric -can- work.
What I am looking for: 1) Best unbuffed AB I can get, I'm aiming for like 44-45, but... might not be possible. 2) Ability to use Divine Might and Divine Shield 3) Some magical ability, as in maybe 2nd level spells or so.. so WIS can be like... 12 4) Must remain Tymorran, and CG alignment
I've come up with things like.... 12 cleric / 13 Divine Champion / 5 Master scout..... 12 cleric and 8 DC pre-epic. STR 16>24 DEX 8 CON 10 INT 14 WIS 12 CHA 15>18
Master Scout not only works well with his spotting ability and expanding into tracking... it also provides 2 bonus epic feats if taken in the epics....
I can get 43 AB with a +4 weapon... it's doable I suppose, but, would love a bit higher.
Now, before you think I am totally crazy, keep in mind Chance works a lot in Ruathym, where use of magic is feared or forbidden. This makes his current build.... awkward, or useless depending on the situation.
With what I outlined above... he'd be at 43 AB and 52 AC with no buffing, right now I think he is 32 AB, and 48 AC unbuffed. Fully buffed now, he gets 52 AB and 67 AC.... but, that takes time, and is short durations, a few minutes really. With the above build... he can manage 52 AB, and 62 AC.... for 1 minute... now, with the Divine Champion features, he would actually have quite a bit more damage with that. Also.. smite, just one per day, but... +10 AB and +15 damage is not so bad, especially combined with the rest.
This might be a pipe dream, but... does anyone have any ideas? I'm open to almost anything, since you never know what will work.
I /know/ these builds are trash but can anyone give me the low-down on how I'd build a 25 druid, 4 fighter 1 rogue Moon Elf with EMD and dex-based as a must? Thanks in advance
_________________
"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
Joined: 09 Jul 2014 Location: The Land of >9000 Lakes (GMT -6)
First of all, I'd drop it to 24 Druid, 5 Fighter, 1 Rogue (This way you can get full AB) Aaaand do you have any ideas on what kind of weapons you want it to use? Finesse, Zen Archer?
Reasons for the Changes: 24 Druid, since you only get 1 less CL, and you still get a bonus feat. 5 Fighter so you can take 4 pre-epic to get full 4 attacks per round.
_________________ Occasionally seen as [DM] Raua, or playerside as...
Ok... I need some advice. I wanted Chance to be more "warrior", right now he's 23 cleric/5 fighter/2 rogue. Problem is, it takes him several minutes to buff up and without those buffs... he's awful. Yes, the life of a spellblade, I know.
Well... I am trying to get him a rebuild, and... I'm learning what might and might not work out (get approved). I am guessing his final build should have cleric in it. I wanted Paladin (seems DM's likely won't approve), but, cleric -can- work.
What I am looking for: 1) Best unbuffed AB I can get, I'm aiming for like 44-45, but... might not be possible. 2) Ability to use Divine Might and Divine Shield 3) Some magical ability, as in maybe 2nd level spells or so.. so WIS can be like... 12 4) Must remain Tymorran, and CG alignment
I've come up with things like.... 12 cleric / 13 Divine Champion / 5 Master scout..... 12 cleric and 8 DC pre-epic. STR 16>24 DEX 8 CON 10 INT 14 WIS 12 CHA 15>18
Master Scout not only works well with his spotting ability and expanding into tracking... it also provides 2 bonus epic feats if taken in the epics....
I can get 43 AB with a +4 weapon... it's doable I suppose, but, would love a bit higher.
Now, before you think I am totally crazy, keep in mind Chance works a lot in Ruathym, where use of magic is feared or forbidden. This makes his current build.... awkward, or useless depending on the situation.
With what I outlined above... he'd be at 43 AB and 52 AC with no buffing, right now I think he is 32 AB, and 48 AC unbuffed. Fully buffed now, he gets 52 AB and 67 AC.... but, that takes time, and is short durations, a few minutes really. With the above build... he can manage 52 AB, and 62 AC.... for 1 minute... now, with the Divine Champion features, he would actually have quite a bit more damage with that. Also.. smite, just one per day, but... +10 AB and +15 damage is not so bad, especially combined with the rest.
This might be a pipe dream, but... does anyone have any ideas? I'm open to almost anything, since you never know what will work.
Thanks in advance!
I assume that this would be for the first rebuild before you rebuild him into a complete non-magic meele build?
Indeed! Tymorans cannot become paladins but there are a lot of Tymoran DC around! Are you sure that you want to drop the cleric levels that far? I think 20cleric/8DC/2 rogue would do the trick, unless you wish to drop the cleric level entirely in the future.
DC doesn't get smite evil anymore, it only stacks up with the already existing paladin smiting levels.
Also, MS won't give you much aside from Tumble and the short lasting battle fortitude. There is the crafting option with MS but I'm not sure if it is worth your time. You might want to keep the rogue levels for the sake of evasion(unless you have the ring) and UMD, because that two alone worth a lot more in the case of a meele class which already has enough saves due to the DC levels.
_________________ Lord Hector Sylgerand Glendil Fettian, the black bard
First of all, I'd drop it to 24 Druid, 5 Fighter, 1 Rogue (This way you can get full AB) Aaaand do you have any ideas on what kind of weapons you want it to use? Finesse, Zen Archer?
Reasons for the Changes: 24 Druid, since you only get 1 less CL, and you still get a bonus feat. 5 Fighter so you can take 4 pre-epic to get full 4 attacks per round.
Finesse, the concept uses a rapier
I understand the reasoning behind the 24 druid/5 fighter and think it's probably best, just gutted and no +5 animal companion, but EMD will solve that (even if i have to take it near endgame)
_________________
"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
I understand the reasoning behind the 24 druid/5 fighter and think it's probably best, just gutted and no +5 animal companion, but EMD will solve that (even if i have to take it near endgame)
25 druid is also the level minimum for 1d12 flame weapons, and +1 Ab/regen/damage from blood frenzy. I'd say that's worth the 4 damage from epic weapon spec, especially since this obviously more of a caster type. The 4 fighter level pre-epic still give you the full attacks a round.
You might consider Master Scout instead of Rogue 1, since you're not getting evasion anyways: MS gives you your tumble dump, along with dash and an extra epic feat (though it costs you two pre-epic feats, Great Dex or Epic Prowess might be worth it).
You might consider DC instead of fighter... If you are already foregoing epic weapon spec for level 25 druid, DC 4 gives +2 universal saves, plus 3 more reflex than fighter. Along with a bit of damage from purge infidel. And it would avoid the xp penalty of taking two base classes. It would get one less feat though.
I'd probably go 25druid/4DC/1MS, if it fit the concept. +6 damage is pretty large, especially with a high crit weapon, but the trade offs are worth it in my eyes.
I concur. That 25 Druid is like the golden cut off for druids. It just rounds off all your abilities to their max (Most of the super important ones anyway).
I think 25 Druid/4 DC/1 MS suits the character more than a Druid/Ftr/Rog build.
Next question: What ability stats should I start with, keeping in mind I want EMD. Wild Elf base (+2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence).
_________________
"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
Moon elf or wild elf? You said both. Both get +2 dex, so it doesn't matter primarily.
18 Dex, 15 Wis. Put 5 level points towards Wis for the 20 EMD req, the other two to Dex for 20. Or skip the Dex focus and weapon finesse for zen archery and a bow (with a burly animal companion and EMD summon that might work) and focus on wisdom primarily.
Moon elf or wild elf? You said both. Both get +2 dex, so it doesn't matter primarily.
18 Dex, 15 Wis. Put 5 level points towards Wis for the 20 EMD req, the other two to Dex for 20. Or skip the Dex focus and weapon finesse for zen archery and a bow (with a burly animal companion and EMD summon that might work) and focus on wisdom primarily.
I've been thinking on it, and I do think that a Bow would make the build somewhat more efficient and can be incorporated in to her character. (Also upon doing character dev, I decided Wild Elf was more suitable for her).
However a tanky animal summon she will not have, due to IC reasons (and don't want another Bear druid). Sirrush isn't a tanky summon either, AFAIK.
Assuming Crow companion + Sirrush EMD, would a Dex-based rapier or a Zen Archery Bowyer be best? Both weapons are more than suitable for her, however the build itself is gimped (25 Arcane is a better build, as is pure Druid) and don't want the leveling process to be effectively me being pulled through every area or solely relying on job system until I get the juicy EMD summon and nice Blood Frenzy bonuses.
Thinking on it, I think bowyer would be best both mechanically and roleplaying-wise. I think pre-epic is going to be a horrible grind, but I think the build will pay off at epic.
Should I take the MS level pre-epic?
_________________
"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
Blood frenzy scales with level, and only druids get the 10+ stuff. Kind of a toss up on Dex vs Wis though, with a 20 Dex you can only get 2 AC more then you can in armor (all armor allows for 9 AC now, between the armor AC and the Dex mod). With medium armor you only need to get to total Dex mod +4 (assuming 5AC medium armor, not sure if druids get the 4 or 5 AC type). Focusing on one stat instead of two will give you better AB... but melee is generally better. Being a druid though, You also have the option to normally use zen archery bow attacks, then wild shape for melee. With druid 25 you get the elder elemental shapes, which look pretty decent (and weapon finesse won't help for). Armor, shield, and helmet merge in those shapes.
I haven't leveled a druid, but it looks like this build would level just about the same as a full druid would, if not with a bit more flexibility.
If someone could look over this build to check it for any errors I might have made, that'd be great. Not in terms of pvp or pve power, but if I missed something with feat pre-requisites or the like.
Joined: 08 Nov 2013 Location: Somewhere near the Atlantic (I hope)
I also don't know if your skill point spread is only representative of a level 1 character, but you lose the human racial +1 skill point per level once you enable aasimar. So if you decided to calculate your end total points at ECL 30, you may or may not be off by 27.
Our bards may have to duel for the pedestal of skill-based scholarship at some point, though.
_________________ Contents subject to change without warning, reason, necessity, or logical imperative.
Can someone verify, preferably by actually looking at the numbers in the combat log, if weapon focus:unarmed applies to the creature weapons of unarmed shifter forms? I know I've seen it said that it does, but NWN.wikia has this to say about it:
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Unarmed_strike wrote:
Natural weapons are unlike unarmed strikes in that their use does not provoke an attack opportunity, they do not benefit from a monk's increased unarmed damage, and they do not benefit from the unarmed variants of epic and regular weapon focus, epic and regular weapon specialization, nor devastating critical.
I don't have a character with that feat to check it, though I'm working on a build that does. I'm guessing some shifter/monk has the unarmed focus though.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Looks really solid tbh. You could trade Epic Prowess for Greater Ruin? Since you are going to be really vulnerable close up GR could be a nice finisher. I can't really fault any of your feat/skill/attribute choices.
Maybe drop Power Attack and pick up Divine Shield and max tumble? You can pull off -ok- fighter level AC that way that can make you a bit more beefy.
Besides those two possibilities I cannot think of anything else. Even then those two suggestions aren't really better or worse than what you have just a bit different.
Power attack is a pre-req for divine might and shield, so that doesn't work.
There's items with point blank shot and rapid shot. Not a great option, but it might be an option. Nix that, just realized its a crossbow, and that really needs rapid reload like you have it.
Honestly, I'd probably drop bard 1, if you can't max tumble anyways. Maybe take fighter 6 for an extra epic feat (assuming you miswrote fighter 4 there, because you miss that fourth attack if you are taking the fourth fighter level in epic for EWS), or cleric 25 for the possibility of another epic spell (you could drop prowess for an epic spell, you should still have plenty of AB as a cleric, when buffed). Might drop Disc a bit, and raise concentration, if you plan on playing missile.
I was thinking about dropping Epic Prowess in favor of GR. I guess it just depends on what the AB situation looks like at that level and if the +1 is really needed or not. I'm guessing not, cause it's still a flippin' cleric haha. I'd rather keep the Bard, too, cause I like Bard on cleric's for flavor versus Rogue, and I can get the Tumble maxed so that's good.
I was hoping it was sound, but trying to squeeze in the feats on a cleric build seemed kinda 'oh dear!' hah.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
I've been trying to make a crossbow build work, and that's about as good as I could get it. It's still going to be annoyingly inferior to the same build with a bow. Crossbow was simply handled poorly in this game :/
True and I was thinking about a longbow, too. But then Heaven's Wrath popped into my head, heh.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
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