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MoshingChris wrote:

Even further to that point Maximize is only relevant in PvM not PvP. If you are relying on castable buffs of your combat statistics in PvP you are doing it wrong. You drink potions for PvP you don't cast spells.

How come?

Because if you don't have time to suck down those potions you aren't going to be short -3 AB or -90 HP, you are only going to be short -1 AB -30HP because you've geared to +10 in both the ability stats (+12 is better). Also because your ability buffs like everything else can be counter-spelled. Thirdly because you want to spend the least amount of time possible casting and if your a Melee type caster you are in trouble anyway. Fourth because sinking a potion can't be interrupted by some asshole smacking you for a 160 crit. It's why even on my Cleric in PvP I'll still use True Strike potions over buffing the living shit out of myself. 1 potion every 9 seconds is better than 2 - 3 rounds of trying to buff myself whilst someone is wailing on me.

That said, generally whenever my character/s leave the confines of a settlement I buff out their hour and turn based buffs in an extended fashion.

I tend to stay away from PvP, so that's probably why I don't really see the point of it.

So do I. I think I've been involved in 40 altercations in 6 years half of which probably occurred in the Arena. The other reason I run around with full swagger up is because Kjetta is a bastard and getting surprise events whilst minding my own business made me paranoid.

MoshingChris wrote:

The other reason I run around with full swagger up is because Kjetta is a bastard and getting surprise events whilst minding my own business made me paranoid.

Unbuffed, unrested Joon makes for a sahuagin snack.

Back to my questions:

Naivatkal wrote:

Is there any real benefit for a wizard to take Blind Fight? It's pretty much only useful if you are a melee or ranged attacker right?

edit:

Drow wizard/bard - Which is better

1) Starting with 18+2 INT, ending 28 INT including a Great INT feat, and with +12 gear having a bonus level 3 and 6 slot (compared to havint 26+12 INT)

OR

2) Starting with 17+2 INT, ending 26 INT, and having an epic feat to spare (because of not taking Great INT)

I can't really tell if the +1 DC and 3/6 slots are really worth it.

Drow Wiz/Bard build

My experimental build continues to be effective though it is getting harder, which is as it should be. I have 8 lvs so far and am now focusing on the wizard part of the build. Even with only 5 wizard lvs i still have plenty of spells to throw as i have pimped out my already high int all the way up to 24/25. I figure ill try for a total amount of 50 int by lv 30. Such may be too optimistic but i will try anyway, even 35 would be nice. Next feat i take will be greater spell focus and then toughness to increase my hp which currently stands at 50.

Wish me luck.

I doubt it is even possible to reach 50 int here...

It's not.

It may not be but there is no harm in trying. :wink:

It isn't "you're gonna have a fucking hard time doing it" impossible.

It mechanically is not possible.

You can start with 18 Intelligence (or 20 with some subraces). You get +7 through level-ups, one point every 4 levels. So without taking Great Intelligence feats, a human will cap at 25 base Intelligence. Ability scores can be buffed up to a cap of +12 with items and spells. That leaves you at 37 buffed. You will, of course, want to end with an even number, so you'll take one Great Intelligence (or start with 17 Int and settle for 24). You can't really afford any more Great Int feats, because you want epic spells and epic spell focus feats. I mean, you mechanically could, but it wouldn't be worth it.

Why won't you try your build offline? You can level up to 30 with console commands, or download a module for it (like Pretty Good Character Creator), and make sure your build adds up.

Do you have a link for this module, Iron? You'd be a sweetheart.

37 is more then fine... i just try to pimp out my primary abilitie as far as possible. 50 may be impossible but 37 will more then suffice.

26 (38 buffed) is the standard for a caster, really. It's what you should go for as default!

Actually there is a point where it becomes far more viable to take Greater Intelligence feats over Epic Spell Focus feats.

And that's when you want to grab four Epic Spell Foci. It's simple math. Why burn four feats on epic spell focus which only raises your DC's by +2 and take a Great Int, when you can take Five Great Int's and benefit from the increased spells per day that doing so provides. That will still leave you with two feats for epic spells and with a highly versatile spell book as described you will probably take Epic Mage Armor and Epic Mummy Dust.

37 is useless. Always aim for an even number because only even numbers give you modifier and modifier is actually what matters.

I will always take mummy dust... i learned the value of that spell with my cleric several times over.

As mentionned, some subraces have a +2 Ability boost, so that can help. But you may not take a subrace just for the stats; there's still a "RP" factor to them.

And, I have made the calculations for the max stat attainable, saying you dedicate your whole build to INT.

Wizard
18 Base + 2 Racial
20
+7 from levels (4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28)
+7 from Greater Int VII (at 21, 24, 27 and 30 regular feats and 23, 26 and 29 bonus feats)
+12 (cap from items/buffs)

Makes for a total of 46 (+18)

But you lose -all- epic feats. (AKA No Epic Spell focii, no Epic Spells and the like)

Which is a huge loss.

37/38 is fine... 50 was too optimistic as i said. No way im giving up epic spells and feats for epic int.

The highest INT possible on a level 30 PC is 47.

You have to do the build 20 wizard/9 RDD/1 Bard with 18 starting INT and a +2 race (like Halruaan). But you also h ave to devote every epic feat to Great Intelligence.

18 (ability points) + 2 (race bonus) + 2 (RDD level 9) + 7 (level ups) + 6 (epic feats) + 12 (gear) = 47

Obviously that's going to be a really bad build so the next highest is 46 INT.
30 wizard (or 29/1), same ability stats:
18 (ability points) + 2 (race bonus) + 7 (level ups) + 7 (epic feats) + 12 (gear) = 46

However remember that you must use all of yours epic feats for Great Intelligence... which means your still going to suck. You lose any hope of Epic Mage Armor, Greater Ruin, Epic Mummy Dust, Hellball, Epic Spell Focus, or even Epic Spell Penetration. So yeah, 50 is way out of a level 30's league without potentially crippling yourself.

Exordius wrote:

37 is more then fine... i just try to pimp out my primary abilitie as far as possible. 50 may be impossible but 37 will more then suffice.

37 is a waste. Never end on an odd number if you can avoid it (and you can with your INT stat) because a 37 is no better than a 36 in every way. You go with 36 or 38.

29 Wizard/1 Anything in pre-epic.

Take Ranger 1 in pre-epic for Greater Spell Focus.

This pushes the level 20 Wizard feat into epic which can be used for Great Int. That's 8 great int feats.

18 + 2 + 7 + 8 + 12 = 47.

Im not gonna give up epic feats/spells for int... 36 is fine. :wink:

40 is better.

MoshingChris wrote:

29 Wizard/1 Anything in pre-epic.

Take Ranger 1 in pre-epic for Greater Spell Focus.

This pushes the level 20 Wizard feat into epic which can be used for Great Int. That's 8 great int feats.

18 + 2 + 7 + 8 + 12 = 47.

Good point, I didn't notice that. But still a worthless 47 ;p lol

I'll be less of a nob-end about it.

To me if you are going spell casty and taking anything over 24 intelligence you should take three great intelligence At the bare minimum. Epic Spells, specifically Hellball and Ruin are overrated and you will get more value out of your 7,8,9 spells. Every good Wizard I've seen wins because of their 7,8,9 spells. Every bad wizard loses because they think on a server where Con is stacked to high heaven, they can lulzballz to victory.

Aye, though 47 still is just +18, but it's true. Dat ranger level.

And yes. Epic Spells are only good for nuking the bosses, and even there, there's always a way around that can save you up 1-2 epic feats.

MoshingChris wrote:

Every bad wizard loses because they think on a server where Con is stacked to high heaven, they can lulzballz to victory.

That's just a terrible strategy unless there's fighters wheedling someone/thing down. I don't usually take Hellball but GR is nice if you are in a 'oh shit' situation and have to kill something fast. I've seen some creative uses for it in PvE, and if you are the type that only hunts epics in a party GR is handy cause you can help deliver the KO. Or in PvP if you are support you can take out that enemy that forgot to to heal quickly.

But in general, yeah loosing strategy in my opinion especially with how easy it is to pop a Heal potion and boost your HP back up to higher than what a GR or Hellball would hit you for. Or, if there's a cleric healing.

The testing module for those who prefer not to use console commands. You can also make your own version with the Amia HAK loaded, if you're testing one of our customized classes (the effects won't work but the prerequisites etc. should):
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=mo ... l&id=4215#

Yeah, I suppose you can take Great Int III if you have that many feats to spare. I've never considered building a pure caster wizard without drow ECL, so there were always too few feats. And you can't take Epic Focus in the same school twice, so there's no other way to up the DC on your Sunburst or whatever you're using.

IronAngel wrote:

The testing module for those who prefer not to use console commands. You can also make your own version with the Amia HAK loaded, if you're testing one of our customized classes (the effects won't work but the prerequisites etc. should):
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=mo ... l&id=4215#

I usually just upload haks to a module, level up with nwn console commands, spawn gear on the floor and make a room full of 12 generic Epic nwn drow spawns- clerics, fighters and mages. If I survive at level 30, then the concept passes

Playing around with the SD mage concept, I came up with this build. If anyone has any suggestions or wants to point our errors in this build, please do so. The epic feats may need some work, or a different order. I know PMs can't take epic stuff until L15, so I assume I can only take epic general feats at 21, even on a caster level. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Zeth-

6 Wizard, 16 Pale Master, L6 Shadowdancer

drow

DEX: 15 (17) [24]
INT: 18 (20)
CON: 14

Skills-

1(W1). +1 Luck of Heroes
2(W2).
3(W3). +1 Spell Focus: Necromancy
4(W4). +1 DEX
5(W5). (+1 Wiz: Extend Spell)
6(W6). +1 Maximize Spell
7(PM1).
8(PM2). +1 DEX
9(PM3). +1 Lightning Reflexes
10(PM4).
11(PM5).
12(PM6). +1 Great Fortitude +1 DEX
13(PM7).
14(PM8).
15(PM9). +1 Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
16(PM10). +1 DEX
17(PM11).
18(PM12). +1 Stealthy
19(SD1).
20(SD2). +1 DEX
21(PM13). +2 Armor Skin, Great Fortitude
22(PM14).
23(SD3).
24(PM15). +1 Epic Mage Armor +1 DEX
25(SD4).
26(SD5).
27(PM16). +2 Epic Mummy Dust, Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy
28(SD6). +1 DEX

A small challenge for you, ladies and gentlemen.

I would like to ask for a powerbuild - species, feats, items do not matter. It must be competitive, ideally, in both PVM and PVP. The only requirement is the class - pure fighter.

>Pure Fighter
>Competitive in both PvM and PvP

Pick one.

First off, don't ask for a powerbuild here. They are not just handed out. Also, the spirit of the thread is to try making a build to the best of your ability and then post it for critique/help. I'm only posting this build below cause it's relatively straight-forward to make a 30 Fighter hah.

Pure Fighters can be pretty bad ass. Issue is, they are not very fun. I made this for giggles a long time back:

Quote:

Fighter(30), Tuigan

STR: 18 (26)
DEX: 8
CON: 14
WIS: 10
INT: 14
CHA: 10

01: Fighter(1): Luck of Heroes, Strong Soul, Power Attack
02: Fighter(2): Weapon Focus: Longsword
03: Fighter(3): Knockdown
04: Fighter(4): STR+1, Weapon Specialization: Longsword, (STR=19)
05: Fighter(5)
06: Fighter(6): Toughness, Weapon Proficiency Exotic
07: Fighter(7)
08: Fighter(8): STR+1, Improved Critical: Longsword, (STR=20)
09: Fighter(9): Skill Focus: Discipline
10: Fighter(10): Improved Knockdown
11: Fighter(11)
12: Fighter(12): STR+1, Great Fortitude, Cleave, (STR=21)
13: Fighter(13)
14: Fighter(14): Expertise
15: Fighter(15): Improved Critical: Greatsword
16: Fighter(16): STR+1, Improved Expertise, (STR=22)
17: Fighter(17)
18: Fighter(18): Iron Will, Great Cleave
19: Fighter(19)
20: Fighter(20): STR+1, Blind Fight, (STR=23)
21: Fighter(21): Great Strength I, (STR=24)
22: Fighter(22): Overwhelming Critical: Longsword
23: Fighter(23)
24: Fighter(24): STR+1, Overwhelming Critical: Greatsword, Devastating Critical: Longsword, (STR=25)
25: Fighter(25)
26: Fighter(26): Epic Weapon Focus: Longsword
27: Fighter(27): Devastating Critical: Greatsword
28: Fighter(28): STR+1, Epic Weapon Specialization: Longsword, (STR=26)
29: Fighter(29)
30: Fighter(30): Epic Fortitude, Epic Prowess

Craft Armor 33(35), Craft Weapon 33(35), Discipline 33(44), Heal 33(33), Tumble 15(14), remaining skillpoints 3

Hitpoints: 390
Skillpoints: 165
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 27/15/11

The biggest problem is that you have no UMD and only 15 Tumble. There's no way to powerbuild a 30 Fighter.

25 (base) + 8 (STR) + 6 (gear) + 1 (Prow) + 3 (WF/EWF) + 5 (Enchant) = 48 AB + 1 (Bless) + 1 (Aid) = 50 AB [On a pure fighter build!]

HP is nice at 390 base. You could min/max and drop WIS/CHA to 8 and bump CON to 16 for 420 base. You can also jack up the STR more by taking out the greatsword stuff; I had that in there so the char could swap between beast mode (2H) and survival mode (sword/board). So call it 51 AB with the two extra Great STR; also you could remove Iron Will and Exotic Prof for other useful stuff; It was for flexibility and saves.

Anything you can do a 18/2/10 can do better

Well duh, that was the point I made when saying 30 Fighter is doable just not the best.

Tis best just to ignore silly people who want crap and those who want to metapowerpwnpvpkillz thr server

Naivatkal wrote:

First off, don't ask for a powerbuild here. They are not just handed out. Also, the spirit of the thread is to try making a build to the best of your ability and then post it for critique/help. I'm only posting this build below cause it's relatively straight-forward to make a 30 Fighter hah.

Pure Fighters can be pretty bad ass. Issue is, they are not very fun.

[build]

Thank you for a quick and informative reply. The purpose of my question, however, was to inspect if pure fighter can be made mechanically comparable (hence much loathed "powerbuild" term) to optimized multiclass (18/2/10, in example) builds, to which apparent answer is still "no, but close".

As for suggested build itself, it's interesting, if simple.

I think what Dune was trying to say, was that if you had to make a 30 fighter build, how would you optimize it?

First, for sure-- I'd make sure that I was taking every single Bonus Save feat. With all the bonus feats you have, you can absolutely afford it. And it'll help round out some weaknesses of your character.

You'll have to cross-class tumble.

Improved Knockdown, on top of Devastating Critical. Normally, I try to steer folks away from it-- but you have so many feats, and nothing anywhere else, that it'll be a fine boost to your damage, as well as giving you something to attack saving throws.

Those are the basics, though.

Why steer folk away from Devastating out of interest?

Is it systemwise possible for a cleric to have more than two domains on Amia (by being given the additional feats by a DM for example)?

I believe last time this was brought up was in a request and the answer was no.

I -could- be wrong, though.

Elorathall wrote:

Is it systemwise possible for a cleric to have more than two domains on Amia (by being given the additional feats by a DM for example)?

You can however request spells or custom abilities that other domains have to "cheat" the system, so to speak.

So long as the DMs believe that your deity would grant them, and that granting them would not be OP (though if it's something a cleric could get via domains that probably wouldn't be the case).

Also that's going to end in a lot of DC spending, haha.

Dunecat wrote:

A small challenge for you, ladies and gentlemen.

I would like to ask for a powerbuild - species, feats, items do not matter. It must be competitive, ideally, in both PVM and PVP. The only requirement is the class - pure fighter.

Challenge accepted. [coming soon]

Okay i admit i fell for your taunts, mainly because i thought i could pull out something outrageous. After doing the math it fell a bit short to qualify as a powerbuild, so as those before me have stated, a 30 level fighter is not going to shine however you build it.

Well, maybe not precisely.

First of all, truly, a single class build -always- suffers a big chunk of power loss, as compared to dual or triple class builds. Period.

Now with that in mind, let's say we're that radical and are still going for 30 Fighter. Best bet is (and tbh the only working one) a double weapon Dev Critter - Heavy Crossbow plus a melee weapon of your choice. It gives you a convenient method of forcing threat rolls of 17-20, with DC of 39-41, immediately from where you stand - optionally buffed with True Strike potions. This means, in pvp, that if you're a fast draw, you have always the advantage of first strike. And if your opponent needs a few rounds to prepare, he's literally playing with death.

This build is i think Mosh's idea, at least on Amia, and at least his is the first one i've heard of.

My idea, which -sort of- failed, was to replace Dev Crit with Improved Stunning Fist at DC 48/52'ish, or even add on top of the crossbow, for DC's of 39 and 39, but in both cases the build leaves a lot to be desired. Also it still is a big nerf to go pure fighter, because e.g. FTR28/DC2 can squeeze in two extra epic feats (ergo ISF X, DC 56). Not to mention everyone and their mother protects from Dev with fort gear, and from everything else, including Stuning Fist, with Mindblank potions

Bottom line is, there are ways to make a 30 Fighter strong and/or interesting, but there are better ways to make dual/triple classed, even 21+ level Fighters much stronger.

The closest thing to a true powerbuild epic fighter would be, say, a FTR26/BG3/Monk1. Dev Crossbow, Dev/EWS Quarterstaff, with Aura of Despair [so, DC of around 44 maybe?], Evasion, Tumble, and a ton of neat combat feats - Improved Disarm, (maybe) Improved Whirlwind Attack, Called Shot, IKD, Expertise - which all combined makes not only for a powerbuild in a true sense of the word, it also makes for an interesting martial-arts build to play, with big row of combat moves to surprise your enemies with.

Naivatkal wrote:

First off, don't ask for a powerbuild here. They are not just handed out.

I stopped caring. Or maybe i stopped believing that 137-pages long threads about builds will actually help people that can't build. I mean fuck, look at Exordius. He makes me want to post all my builds in here, so that he and people like him can go the lazy route and just pick something they like. And no, cheesy powerbuilds is not the only thing i make.

*sigh*

MoshingChris wrote:

Why steer folk away from Devastating out of interest?

I think there are some builds that do well with it. But there's a lot of investment, when you can overpower someone with raw damage, Improved Knockdown for a similar disable-- and in my opinion, better round out a character with increased saves.

There are builds that can do well with it, mind. And its not -bad-, its just got quite a bit of feats as a requirement! If you can manage the feats, do it. But I'd rather see someone who's strained for feats balance it out.

Well to be honest, in terms of raw damage, and overpowering, overwhelming critical is fairly good whilst Power Attack, cleave and great cleave are also useful, PA being excessively awesome against Low AC/Resist Mobs and Cleave/Great Cleave on a high damage character effectively granting a bonus attack per round. I understand the saves concern but you can build to Devastating fairly easily and still manage to take Saves feats etc.

Stop using the term "Powerbuild". Just call it What it is - Experience. Those who know nwn and amia have learned the system and use it to our advantage. Its like knowing math and use it to land a Well paid job.

Those who can't do "math" will of course whine.

Mr. Hackums wrote:

MoshingChris wrote:

Why steer folk away from Devastating out of interest?

I think there are some builds that do well with it. But there's a lot of investment, when you can overpower someone with raw damage, Improved Knockdown for a similar disable-- and in my opinion, better round out a character with increased saves.

There are builds that can do well with it, mind. And its not -bad-, its just got quite a bit of feats as a requirement! If you can manage the feats, do it. But I'd rather see someone who's strained for feats balance it out.

I've been playing a feat-starved build for quite the long while now, but for flexibility reasons I am forced to keep both improved knockdown and aaaaaall the path to devastating critical. I would love to have some little things as disarm instead, but the build of my character is already gimped to ungodly levels, and I -need- something to give it a little bit of punch without screwing what he is... ... ...

... It's not like I have really an alternative, to add some colour to his build.

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