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Uncle-Opustus
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 05 2012, 17:56 PM 

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I beg to differ. That first hit is enough to knock over almost anything in PvM; a gnome ranger's AB is fierce. Besides, there are always a few poor things that forsake Discipline in order to be cool.

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QPR
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 05 2012, 18:26 PM 

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Ona two handering barbarian: Mighty Rage or Dev Crit and Thundering rage? Can't get both it seems.

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Bini
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 05 2012, 18:43 PM 

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You can get them all, but since Dev and thundering have similar requirements, and Dev is better than them all, I'd say go with the latter option.

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QPR
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 05 2012, 21:01 PM 

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impossible to get all as far as I know, as dev and such require 25+ str, where mighty rage requires 21+ in both con and str. Very difficult to get one stat to 25 and another to 21.

On another note; I have been toying with the idea of a Fighter/WM/bard. The latter for spellcraft and flavour, constrasted to teh rogues evasion and more skill points. Is spellcraft -that- good that it on its own can justify maxing it?

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Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.


 
      
MoshingChris
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 06 2012, 2:47 AM 

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Its possible.

Earth Genasi

19 Str -> 26
8 Dex
19 Con -> 21
6 Wis
12 Int
6 Cha

Class Distributions 24 Barb 4 Fighter 2 Master Scout

Pre-Epic Barb 20
Feats:
1: Weapon Focus 1: Power Attack
2:
3: Cleave
4:
5:
6: Great Cleave
7:
8:
9: Improved Critical
10:
11:
12: Blindfight
13:
14:
15: Skill Focus Spot
16:
17:
18: Skill Focus Listen
19:
20:

Epic
21 Fighter: Epic Weapon Focus, Great Con 1
22 Fighter: Armor Skin
23 Fighter:
24 Barb: Thundering Rage
25 Fighter: Overwhelming Critical
26 Barb:
27 Barb: Devastating Critical
28 Master Scout: Great Con 2
29 Master Scout:
30 Barb: Mighty Rage, Terrifying Rage

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Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 06 2012, 12:14 PM 

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http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3120/casterclericv2.png

How do i make this Salandarian cleric even better? I want to give him more healing and more anti-undead sparkles.
I also want to see if i can squeeze in Auto-Quicken. Do you think it could be possible?

Could give up Blindfight for Quickened spell. Watcha think?

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mirvala-
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 06 2012, 13:49 PM 

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A bit off topic

Svensk, I don't know how you do it, but I envy your Excel talent. Good lord it seems so easy to work with such a thing for builds, I'd love to understand it that much.

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QPR
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 06 2012, 15:43 PM 

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Just how useful is KD/IKD on a bard compared to power attack and cleave? I have four general feats left, and would like to fit in maximised spell and craft wand, which leaves room for either KD line or PA/cleave. And yes, I got blindfight.

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"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II

Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.


 
      
PeerlessArch
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 06 2012, 15:51 PM 

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Sooo, how much open lock and disable trap is really needed for this server? I feel like I'm wasting valuable points that could be put elsewhere into RP skills instead. :D Thanks in advance!


 
      
IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 06 2012, 16:07 PM 

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PeerlessArch wrote:
Sooo, how much open lock and disable trap is really needed for this server? I feel like I'm wasting valuable points that could be put elsewhere into RP skills instead. :D Thanks in advance!


Faction/story locks go really high, so more Open Lock may give you more opportunity to shine on special occasions. You don't need a lot of Disable Trap, as was explained to me a few pages ago. You can easily afford to leave it at 20, for example. Even lower if you have high Dex and intend to stock up on skill gear.

What other feats do you have, QPR? IKD is obviously better for PvP, but I'd take PA/Cleave for PvM especially if you have high Strength (and hence AB). Doesn't let you pry baddies from your healer though.

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QPR
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 06 2012, 16:09 PM 

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Weapon focus, Blindfight, extend spell, curse song, luck of heroes.

I figue craft wand would give a lot of flexibility as there are some nice bard spells up to level 4 that doesent last for long. Improved critical will come as a bonus fighter feat, so thats in there too

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"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II

Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.


 
      
PeerlessArch
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 06 2012, 16:16 PM 

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I actually do have KD, (KD + Sneak Attack is fun :) ) but Str is at like 16 with gear as a rogue, so don't have PA or Cleave or any fighter feats really.


 
      
-Cloak-and-Dagger-
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 06 2012, 17:45 PM 

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mirvala- wrote:
A bit off topic

Svensk, I don't know how you do it, but I envy your Excel talent. Good lord it seems so easy to work with such a thing for builds, I'd love to understand it that much.



http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=ot ... ail&id=856


 
      
mirvala-
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 06 2012, 17:57 PM 

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Oh good! I had took the quest of trying to build one myself O.o

The time you save me now, CnD

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Bobo_Underhill
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 06 2012, 18:36 PM 

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QPR wrote:
Weapon focus, Blindfight, extend spell, curse song, luck of heroes.

I figue craft wand would give a lot of flexibility as there are some nice bard spells up to level 4 that doesent last for long. Improved critical will come as a bonus fighter feat, so thats in there too


I like KD/IKD. A good curse song wrecks discipline something awful.

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Uncle-Opustus
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 06 2012, 18:46 PM 

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QPR wrote:
Just how useful is KD/IKD on a bard compared to power attack and cleave? I have four general feats left, and would like to fit in maximised spell and craft wand, which leaves room for either KD line or PA/cleave. And yes, I got blindfight.

IKD is a lot better. You wouldn't want to take PA and Cleave for other reason than Dev and Overwhelming. And what Bobo said.

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rolto
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 07 2012, 19:46 PM 

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Hey, I want to build a Ogrillion with Barbarian as main class.

Do I just do 15 Barbarian, just for Terrifying/Thundering rage or go farther to 20 Barbarian for the Uncanny Dodge VI and the 6x Greater Rage and go Fighter in epic levels.

Or should I just scratch all that and go 29 Barbarian?

Last but not least. I want Overwhelming critical, which needs 25+ strength. I have no idea how to build him with which sort of armor I should build him with. Heavy, Medium? I forgot whether you get Heavy feat - but I'm sure Fighter gives me that. So the next part is - how much Dex should he at least start with for best effect, 12-13-14? I was always confused in how many Dex there should be in a melee class with heavy armor. Heh..


 
      
Bini
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 07 2012, 19:55 PM 

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I would say, apart from a little more damage reduction, the barbarian class hits its ceiling at 24. Fighter pairs well with barbarian as it grants you the heavy proficiency that you'll need, as well as epic weapon specialization if you happen to take the last level of fighter (I would suggest 4 levels in total) on level 21, 24, or 27. So 24 Barbie, 4 Fighter leaves you with one level, which I'd suggest you fill with a tumble-dump class. :D As for dexterity, you can invest in it up to 12 if you like for a 1+ ac at all times, but it's really not worth it at all, considering the availability of potions.

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rolto
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 07 2012, 21:04 PM 

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Bini wrote:
Stuff


24 Barb/4 Fighter/1 Bard(*Rogue)

Most mention Bard for Tumble dumping. Otherwise I'll just do *Rogue. If anyone can elaborate why; please do.

The damage reduction is rather useless in my opinion. Though I could combine it with a Soaking Damage item?

I will start him up with 10 Dex then. In the beginning it'll be a bit tough, until I get Heavy Armor from Fighter. That said, is it worth doing a Fighter level pre-epic. Or are those 4 Levels needed on the epic end? I won't loose any BAB or HP in the end.

If I just need EWS within the epic Fighter levels, I'm sure I can sacrifice just 1 pre-epic Barbarian level with a Fighter earlier on.

As for skills - With 10 dex, I can't get Mobility - is this bad? Also, is Blind Fighting really a must?

Hopefully with the lack of Int, I can reach 25 Intimidation for Terrifying Rage and some points over for Tumble & perhaps Taunt if possible.


 
      
Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 07 2012, 21:13 PM 

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rolto wrote:
Bini wrote:
Stuff


24 Barb/4 Fighter/1 Bard(*Rogue)

Most mention Bard for Tumble dumping. Otherwise I'll just do *Rogue. If anyone can elaborate why; please do.


I have heard, might be wrong, that if you take a level of bard (one 1/2 levels of any casting class) on a melee character it will screw up your potions so that they will be treated as caster level 1 vs dispelling (ie in the mindflayers) as opposed to your character level (potions rely on your full character level if you have no caster levels).

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Bini
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 07 2012, 21:13 PM 

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Mobility is useless unless your taking it as a pre-requisite for another class.
Rogue or bard works, I would spring for rogue simply because you probably won't want to invest charisma to use your cantrips, and it gets 4 more skillpoints.
Don't underestimate the damage reduction, but don't count on it either. You can even invest in epic damage reduction if you want to really utilize it, but it is not a replacement for AC.
You can definitely take fighter levels pre-epic, up to 3 of them. You just need to make sure that you have your last of 4 fighter levels on either 24 or 27 (I forgot to consider the need for EWF before) and take both weapon specialization, and epic weapon specialization on that level.
Skills aren't as tight as you might think, as barbarian is a base 4 skillpoint class.
Blindfight is a must.

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MoshingChris
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 07 2012, 21:21 PM 

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Rogue. Not Bard. Bard is bad advice unless you want it for the RP.

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rolto
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 07 2012, 21:54 PM 

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Rogue would be the most logical choice, avoiding any mechanical failures and wouldn't make sense RP-wise either.

Thanks for all the advice so far. I need to figure out the feats now.

I will be aiming for Overwhelming critical, so I need: cleave
great cleave
improved critical
power attack
terrifying rage
thundering rage
blindfight

This leaves me with one pre-epic feat left right? *I see that level 4 Fighter gets weapon specialization free? Kind of sucks it's not in their earlier - would save me a feat.

In Epic I want:
overwhelming critical
*weapon specialization
epic weapon specialization

Do I have any left for armored skin or devistating critical?


 
      
O'Raghailligh
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 08 2012, 10:25 AM 

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Strength req. for Overwhelming is only 23.


 
      
Fionavar
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 08 2012, 18:36 PM 

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For a straight up dmg warrior guy, which is better:
12Fighter/16WM/2rogue, using a greataxe, no Dev crit, but +7 reflex and +5 fort save (compared to the one right below)
12Fighter/16WM/2rogue, using a Heavy flail, dev crit.
22Fighter/7wm/1rogue, using a Heavy flail, dev crit, +5 reflex and fort save, but -2 AB.
I'm talking purely pvm here, the flail is mostly against the skeletons and a few bosses here, so I thought maybe its overall better than the axe?


 
      
-Cloak-and-Dagger-
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 08 2012, 18:48 PM 

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For build I'd go for number 2. (I presume you are sacrificing Epic Fortitude and Epic Reflex for Dev Crit? I would)

As for weapon I couldn't possibly begin to properly assign the appropiate number of cool points for the two weapon choices without knowing the character concept. Flail is worth more cool points for a Warhammer style armoured warrior type. Greataxe is worth more cool points for Skyrim style barbarian type.


 
      
Badger
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 08 2012, 19:42 PM 



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Quote:
tl,dr: Heavy Flail > Greataxe, and Halflings kick ass.


Since the topics is weapons I thought I'd share my little formula that helps me pick what weapon to use, which yes sadly leaves me at scimitar and rapier most often, but hey.
The idea is the most extra damage from critical, not necessarily largest critical damage. An easy way to calculate the damage potential of a weapon on a character, assuming similar quality weapons can be gotten of any kind. To properly compare weapon choices, first plan your build and feats, then input that data for different weapon choices. Remember to account for exotic weapon proficiency when needed.

For this server, I will use as a common end game weapon: +4, +1d6 physical, keen, with a D8 FW on it. easy enough to acquire.

((End game str mod)*(weapon multiplier)+average weapon damage+weapon specialization)*((crit range)*(crit multiplier)/20+20-crit range/20)=average damage per hit

Lets say Bob the human has an end game STR of 40, uses a heavy flail, and has all the right feats, fighter and WM.(I know people get a lot higher than 40 str, but this is just an example to show the formula)

End game str mod = (40-10)/2=15
weapon multiplier = 1.5 because the weapon is two handed for his size category
Average weapon damage = 4+d6+D8+D10 = 4+(6+1)/2+(8+1)/2+(10+1)/2=17.5
Epic weapon specialization = +4
Crit range = 2+2(keen)+2(imp crit)+2(Ki critical)=8, (13-20)
Crit multiplier= 2+1 (Weapon master)=3
((15*1.5)+17.5+4)*((8*3/20)+1)=(44)*(8*3/20+12/20)=79.2 average damage per hit
where 44 is the average damage on a non-crit, and 1.8 is your critical efficiency per swing. Note, that because lower rolls have a tendency to not hit high ac targets, actual average damage per hit may be higher with more weight to large crit multipliers, but average damage per swing will be lower. Also of note, weapons with a greater crit range will proc Dev Crit more often, so its a choice between scary damage and lots of dev crits to keep things from swinging at you.

Same principles applied to a greataxe, skipping the blocks of text:
((15*1.5)+18.5+4)*(5*4/20+15/20)=(46)(1.75)=80.5 average damage per hit
Quote:
79.2<80.5, but Heavy flail crits more consistently, so with only a 1.3 damage difference, go with the flail.


Kicks and giggles, lets do a hin with a scimi, str 40 also.
((15*1.5)+15.5+4)*(11*3/20+9/20)=(42)*(2.1)=88.2 average damage per hit.

More giggles since I'm addicted to math, 40 str, human, scythe.
((15.5*1.5)+17+4)*(5*5/20+15/20)=(44.25)*(2)=88.5 average damage per hit.

Wow... I will do anything to postpone studying Dynamics... at least my Calc 4 final is done. Sorry for the long post! I hope this helps at least someone.


 
      
Bini
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 08 2012, 20:45 PM 

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http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/nwn/ Better.

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Badger
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 08 2012, 20:49 PM 



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Well hey there, bookmarked.


 
      
Fionavar
 
PostPosted: Wed, May 09 2012, 14:49 PM 

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Badger wrote:
lotsa stuff


Thanks, I really appreciate this..


 
      
Bobo_Underhill
 
PostPosted: Wed, May 09 2012, 22:56 PM 

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Could also pick a weapon based off of coolness rather than numbers, but hey.

EDIT: Also, that calculator doesn't seem to take into account that WS/EWS and WF/EWF stack in NWN.

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mirvala-
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 10 2012, 0:32 AM 

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Bobo_Underhill wrote:
Could also pick a weapon based off of coolness.


Way, way too many scimitar critters about. But heh, what can you do?

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MoshingChris
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 10 2012, 10:33 AM 

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Interestingly enough that sheet follows my own calculations with regards to weapon efficacy. By the time your up against things with 55AC most two handers will do more DPS than a Scimitar. By the time your up against 60 AC x3 one handers are better than x2 one handers. The reality of the situation is that for the purposes of damage per second and given Amia's average PC/Boss AC sits between 55 and 60 there actually isn't any difference in DPS in that regards which means the entire point of the Scimitar is how good it is with regards to DPS versus normal mobs.

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Silent2001
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 10 2012, 16:34 PM 

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Bard/Blackguard, will it blend? If so, how?

My thoughts were running to the tune of 20bard/10blackguard with divine shield/might.

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Innuendo
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 10 2012, 17:12 PM 

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The "cookie cutter" is 16 bard 6 fighter 8 blackguard, I believe. I don't really see how you could go wrong with that.


 
      
Silent2001
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 10 2012, 17:12 PM 

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What about lasting inspiration? :(

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Innuendo
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 10 2012, 17:15 PM 

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I know I love lasting winspiration, but it's really not a necessity with 16 song uses a day, even less so if you get lingering song. 20 Bard/10 BG is kind of feat starved, I think.


 
      
PaladinOfSune
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 10 2012, 17:15 PM 

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Would rather 20 Bard/4 Fighter/6 BG.

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Innuendo
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 10 2012, 17:18 PM 

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PaladinOfSune wrote:
Would rather 20 Bard/4 Fighter/6 BG.

I would personally select this route as well, it's just that some people opt to get that Unholy Sword thingy.


 
      
slkNihilus
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 10 2012, 17:18 PM 

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20 bard/4 CoT/6 BG would also work nicely.


 
      
Silent2001
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 10 2012, 17:39 PM 

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What about divine shield goodness?

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ILoveIceCream
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 10 2012, 18:07 PM 

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20/6cot(or fighter)/4bg, dev crit and all the bard goodies with a +2 to your dev crit dc because of blackguard aura, and you get a 1d6 sneak so you can get a slightly higher ab catching people flat footed.


 
      
-Cloak-and-Dagger-
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 10 2012, 18:22 PM 

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Silent2001 wrote:
What about divine shield goodness?


The thing with that is....20 Dodge AC cap - 5 Bard Song, 5 Boots, 4 (Mass) Haste, 1 Mage Armour...15, easily. A lot of BG levels will only result in overkill in that regard. Divine Might, however...cackle.


 
      
Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 10 2012, 18:37 PM 

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Naivatkal wrote:
rolto wrote:
Bini wrote:
Stuff


24 Barb/4 Fighter/1 Bard(*Rogue)

Most mention Bard for Tumble dumping. Otherwise I'll just do *Rogue. If anyone can elaborate why; please do.


I have heard, might be wrong, that if you take a level of bard (one 1/2 levels of any casting class) on a melee character it will screw up your potions so that they will be treated as caster level 1 vs dispelling (ie in the mindflayers) as opposed to your character level (potions rely on your full character level if you have no caster levels).


I don't know. can anybody verify this?

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PaladinOfSune
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 10 2012, 18:39 PM 

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It's true.

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Ulir
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 10 2012, 19:27 PM 

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23 bard/2 ftr/5 bg? 25 bard/5 bg? 21 bard/4 ftr/5 bg?

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mirvala-
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 10 2012, 23:06 PM 

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I have to choose a feat. Pure Wizard.
I have a free feat to include: Toughness or Craft Wand? (Or anything to suggest)

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Ulir
 
PostPosted: Fri, May 11 2012, 0:40 AM 

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As a pure wizard, you can earn quite a bit of coin on wands, since they will be as potential as they can get. I assume you have the epic spell focus, epic spells you need? Epic Fortitude is neat too.

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mirvala-
 
PostPosted: Fri, May 11 2012, 0:56 AM 

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Location: Canada, Qc (EST, GMT -5)

Well, I was thinking three epic focii... but I may drop one for 2 pre-epics and 1 epic feat...
I'd take ESF: Evocation, ESF: Conjuration and the EMD: Magical Beast. (Dropping out ESF: Abjuration)
I wanted to make a powerfull spellcaster that flings stuff ^^ I'm taking Epic Spell Penetration.

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Vaul Tarrith
 
PostPosted: Fri, May 11 2012, 14:26 PM 

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Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Location: 9th Circle of Hell...with the steaks and Rum

Quick question: Can a Blackguard take the extra turning feat ON level 3 (when they get Turn Undead) or AFTER level 3? Not sure if the game mechanics register the feat you're about to gain or if it requires a level leeway...


*edit* I lied; another question: does the Blackguard 'Sneak Attack' feat trigger the 'Crippling Strike' ability, or does crip strike require Rogue sneaks?


 
      
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