AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

In general there is an issue with a plan that counts on 2 spells only for success and is guaranteed failure if either of the spells doesn't work as intended. Also, as a wizard or a sorcerer you should never expect to solo any epic are where the critters are designed specifically to strip magic. Expecting otherwise is just silly.

I'm not sure it makes sense to block knowledge about some mechanics and not others, since if the summons aren't balanced then that needs to be addressed, and if they are balanced then knowing the difference between them would be academic, just like knowing how the math of classes and combat works.

Blocking just this knowledge in particular is neither helpful nor useful. The people you fear from powergaming with the knowledge being blocked already know what they need to know.

I can understand the desire to know all these stats and I am of a mixed mind when it comes to divulging them.

1. Lore wise a spell caster wouldn't know the exact strengths of anything they summoned, but would know general usefulness in given situations. "These Giants are resistant to most fire attacks so the fire elemental won't help me here, but facing those frost Giants it might be very useful..."
2. I can understand how ending up with the wrong summon because you expected it to be one thing when it turned out to be something entirely different can be frustrating.
3. I don't want to see it turn out to be the same type of situation we have with 80%+ of the earth gensia who walk around with 6 charisma and a 6 wisdom for the power build because they can simply chose not to roll play a severely socially handicapped character who is supper nieve and gullible. Before some of you with earth gensia chime in about how that's not your earth gensia, I know some do it correctly but I've been top side and looked at character stats across the server and it's staggering to see the amount of people with <8 ability scores in the RP abilities. I've rarely come across anyone with an 8 or less in an actual mechanical start like dexterity, constitution or strength.

Maybe the best answer is a more general chart. Something that doesn't list the numbers but instead lists strengths and weaknesses.

You still run into the issue of all these other stats (for example: classes, races, etc) which are perfectly obvious and well documented. Drawing the line in the sand right here doesn't really suit your purposes - you'd have to go back and remake the game from the ground up. I mean, if anyone really wanted to curtail this attitude (which isn't a bad way to play this game, just a different way to play this game - everyone has a different way to enjoy D&D) you'd have gotten rid of threads like that Teach a Man to Fish topic, am I right? And you'd have to make it somehow impossible to view combat logs (which is a method one could use to gain all of this info without needing your permission), that sort of thing.

You are correct. All it takes is some experimentation and time investment and you'd have all the information you need.

A general chart could prove useful while still upholding the spirit of what we believe in, but you can't make everyone happy that way. I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. We've got along this far fine and dandy without it and the team has yet to change their stance on it. I'm not saying these things can't be questioned or discussed, but there is a better, more constructive way to hold these sort of forums and this is predominantly not it.

The argument about where we draw lines is valid, but there has to be lines. If you really wanted to you could probably go out and Stat individual enemies with enough patience and trial. That's not info we are planning to dish out, either. Plus, the character sheets lie to you all the time and people rarely notice until it's big.

I disagree, I think this conversation was awesome. We had a little fun and toned it down to where everyone can see that there's something incomplete about this area. Some want full charts, the usual suspects want no change, some want partial charts.

And we have offered solutions to the disparities in power.

To be fair, I have seen it posted before that summons will be reworked at some point. I do not know how that is coming along, but it would certainly be more than welcome of a change if all of the summons of a specific category were brought in line with one another and made to actually stand out in their specific functions.

That said, this isn't an improving amia thread and that forum has been closed down so I'm not going to hammer at the subject for too long. Suffice to say however that I think allowing us to share this information would be of great benefit to the player base, and we're pretty good at investigating statistical accuracy when it comes to character sheets too.

It is to my strong opinion that limiting Information isn't very helpful for players. Some people will build for strength others will build for rp and others for both. Rebuilds are expensive and a pain. IMO this is a game for players to have fun.

Withholding knowledge to prevent 'powerbuilding' will simply empower the powerbuilders who will take the time to know.

If everyone walks around with the same summon, perhaps then the summons should be balanced more appropriately. The players in this way will tell you what is in need of repair.

The server is thus improved.

Alkor wrote:

If everyone walks around with the same summon, perhaps then the summons should be balanced more appropriately.

Everyone walks around with the same summon, because other people have said it's the strongest. They dont try it out themselves, so they never see the other summons. Then when someone asks them why they use it, instead of "because it fits my rp" you get "because it's the strongest" without ever trying any of the others.

Alkor wrote:

Withholding knowledge to prevent 'powerbuilding' will simply empower the powerbuilders who will take the time to know.

You have all the knowledge before you make a character of what kind of summons you get with your alignment. How powerful it is shouldnt matter, because if you're taking an active part in the battle with your spells, the summons only act as a different flavor of meatshield for your caster. Granted that takes effort and doesnt reward those who only cast invisibility and buff a summon.

It's a slippery slope. First you know every detail about the summons, then you want to know mob stats. Besides, if people dont understand the basics of building why do they think that knowing the exact stats of their summons will help them at all? To me it seems like just one more thing to complain about to the DM's, when they already have their plates piled high with everything else.

The only reason for a lack of transparency is to mask a problem.

Lack of transparency is not letting you know what summons you get at all and letting you find out everything in game. You know exactly what you get. There is no problem. The problem is people wanting information that they're not privy to. It's a blatant attempt to get information that we dont need. You take the summon that would fit your role play. No other reason.

What if your roleplay is a pragmatic summoner that picks the summon that wins most?

NinjaClarinet wrote:

What if your roleplay is a pragmatic summoner that picks the summon that wins most?

Said summoner would not have a character sheet to look at to decide that :p

No, but the point more or less stands. We know that stuff is broken, and that a summon's usefulness can vary wildly by alignment or level bracket. Flimsy IC excuses to retroactively justify a development mistake or oversight are a bandaid. We know you don't really have the time or manpower to fix it, so trying to obfuscate an issue only exacerbates it when it can be worked around with very little fuss. You lose more goodwill than you gain in setting verisimilitude by not only providing the transparency yourselves, but by actively censoring information.

We know the team isn't perfect. It's fine to screw up. But don't stick you head in the sand about it.

NC's post more or less mirrors my line of thought on the matter.

That pragmatic summoner would probably choose the same summon everyone else chooses. If it's used the most, it wins the most, by definition. Might also lose the most, but that's besides the point. Or that pragmatic summoner might take a less popular one, and learn how to use it best. The point of having varied summons, besides just to make it interesting, is to provide alternative methods.

Like I said, I do think there should be *more* information, clues to the summons' skills or abilities, but I don't think everyone needs to know every detail. Beyond the fact that it's a very short jump from that to wanting to know the stats of everything (anyone remember the first page of the old Monstrous Manuals? They ain't for players, on pain of all of that information being changed when it mattered.). It just reeks of rules lawyering, which doesn't help anyone. It would also be a huge database that needed to be kept up to date as often as any change is made, which is less time DMs spend in game (and the instant something wasn't updated fast enough, it would be another thing for someone to complain about).

The real best solution, though I don't know if it's possible with how NWN handles things, is probably to not allow people to even see the character sheets of the summons. It's not like you get to see any other character sheets as a player, and just because you can summon a thing doesn't mean you know all it's secrets. It's the fact that it can be seen that gives people the idea that the information should be public (the opinion of which really isn't that wrong, if one player can see the info, it's somewhat unfair to hide it from others).

On the other hand, an IC compendium of mobs, summons and all, would be pretty cool. Hell, throw PCs on the list too. My character has been putting together just such a list for people she has interacted with, though she isn't likely to share it.

So when can I post my compiled list, why or why not at this point is circular. We all see the absurdity of the argument against, and we know the dev staff isnt changing anything with it possibly ever so just let us post the stats.

I'm not sure I fully understand or appreciate the suggestion that we are upholding a longstanding rule because we screwed up and things are broken. Not everything works as intended on this or any server, but I wouldn't call a power gap between alignments a downside. Would you dislike it if all the evil summons were stronger because evil is often the quick and dirty route to power? We see enough threads clamoring over one class ability set or another. When a lot of questionable PVP and exploits were coming out, the forum battlefield was "nerf shifters." Magee being OP in general is a relatively contentious topic. Not far from here is an arena built around whether powerbuilders and solo players are wrong or if it's just another playstyle.

Personally I don't even like the shifter spreadsheet on the forum, and would rather have it as a general "this is what role it is designed to fill and what type of creature it is." Just because we do have that, and people can do what they like to math out all of our abilities and counters on the server, doesn't mean we should throw it up on the forums. It's different but in the similar vein as "don't say where job trainers are." It largely sounds meaningless to someone who wants the information but there are lines we draw for our various reasons.

However, the way we as a community discuss and reform these lines should be through measured, meaningful, and polite discussion. Backhanded comments, working around the rules, or taking up a rebellious attitude only sets back the parts of this discussion that are actually worth something: and there is a fair bit of that posted here.

Mercedes wrote:

I'm not sure I fully understand or appreciate the suggestion that we are upholding a longstanding rule because we screwed up and things are broken. Not everything works as intended on this or any server, but I wouldn't call a power gap between alignments a downside. Would you dislike it if all the evil summons were stronger because evil is often the quick and dirty route to power? We see enough threads clamoring over one class ability set or another. When a lot of questionable PVP and exploits were coming out, the forum battlefield was "nerf shifters." Magee being OP in general is a relatively contentious topic. Not far from here is an arena built around whether powerbuilders and solo players are wrong or if it's just another playstyle.

Personally I don't even like the shifter spreadsheet on the forum, and would rather have it as a general "this is what role it is designed to fill and what type of creature it is." Just because we do have that, and people can do what they like to math out all of our abilities and counters on the server, doesn't mean we should throw it up on the forums. It's different but in the similar vein as "don't say where job trainers are." It largely sounds meaningless to someone who wants the information but there are lines we draw for our various reasons.

However, the way we as a community discuss and reform these lines should be through measured, meaningful, and polite discussion. Backhanded comments, working around the rules, or taking up a rebellious attitude only sets back the parts of this discussion that are actually worth something: and there is a fair bit of that posted here.

Imo it's a game for the players to have fun- searching for a job trainer that isn't accessable on the surface for 3 months isn't fun.

A lot of things aren't fun to certain people and should not be removed or altered dramatically because someone is vocal about it. I personally have found fun in the system looking for a job trainer IG, in character like intended. Asking someone where it is, someone else speaking up and saying they'll show you, talking along the way and getting a bit of exploration out of the deal. I have possessed NPCs to give hints to quests, job locations, and other meta game information in an IC way.

I don't want to derail this topic into something regarding jobs. It was something I feel is synonymous, where there are many things which, under modern MMO mentality feel like you should just be able to locate creature stats, quest locations, item drops, and maps just by spending some time on a wiki. The buck doesn't stop with me but I feel it does work against the spirit of the server.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

The only reason for a lack of transparency is to mask a problem.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

No, but the point more or less stands. We know that stuff is broken, and that a summon's usefulness can vary wildly by alignment or level bracket. Flimsy IC excuses to retroactively justify a development mistake or oversight are a bandaid. We know you don't really have the time or manpower to fix it, so trying to obfuscate an issue only exacerbates it when it can be worked around with very little fuss. You lose more goodwill than you gain in setting verisimilitude by not only providing the transparency yourselves, but by actively censoring information.

We know the team isn't perfect. It's fine to screw up. But don't stick you head in the sand about it.

I find this offensive. It belittles the Development team and the DM Team. Its insulting to people who have put in more time to making this a fun thing to do than you ever have NinjaClarinet and I think you owe the DM team and the Development team an apology for accusing them of purposely trying to deceive the players because they made a mistake and don't have the man power to fix it.