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This ties into my noble house request. I'd like advice on two possible builds. I'd like for them to be thematically appropriate and conceptually sound but still work. I've built them with a few points in mind:

1. Must be Human. I'm thinking about taking the Ffolk subrace to reflect background (also see the points below) but I'm not sure what the outcome of that would be or if it would have any value at all.
2. Must be Neutral Good or True Neutral.
3. The character begins as a merchant but is growing into a role of keeper of (folk)lore. Some of this folklore has some hedge magical properties.
4. The character (and the members of the house in general) have strong ties to the land north of the Minmir and are devout Chaunteans. This tends to manifest as being able to draw strength from the land itself. While this isn't as spectacular as a true clerical or druidic magic, it would still have an influence.
5. The (male) members of the family are broad and stocky. Combined with the tie to the land described above, they tend to be hardier than the average human.
6. While a noble, the house (and its members) in general are less educated in academics and magic but instead emphasize common sense and "hearth wisdom". As such, Wisdom > Intelligence.
7. While not boorish per se, the Brabanders tend to have no interest or patience for pomp or finer etiquette. They're likable in the way a jovial peasant can be likable. As such, while they can have above-average Charisma, it will not usually be as high as other dedicated Charisma characters.

This thus far leads me to two possible builds. I've yet to decide which one to go for as they both seem interesting, and I'd like feedback and suggestions.

Pastoral Champion / Boar Knight
This character is build around the concept of a peasant knight. Some knowledge of folklore is sacrificed for martial ability. However, the tie to the land and a emulating the strengths of the boar make this character exceptionally tough. The character's favored weapon is a warscythe. The scythe is Chauntea's favored weapon, but a farmer's scythe (as this is often interpreted) is a worthless weapon in any battle. A warscythe is basically the scythe blade fixed to a polearm. The secondary weapon would be a badelaar, which is another farming tool turned into a weapon. Due to its design it's easy to cleave off limbs with it.

Classes: Bard 7/Knight Commander 5/Divine Champion of Chauntea 18
Abilities: Strength 17, Dexterity 10, Constitution 20, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 12, Charisma 16
Skill ranks: Appraise 10, Discipline 33, Heal 17, Lore 30, Perform 10, Persuade 15, Spot 20, Taunt 15, Tumble 5
Feats: Armor Skin, Blind Fight, Called Shot (for chopping off limbs), Cleave, Epic Reputation (to reflect Leadership and the ability to draw on the resources of his house), Epic Toughness I, Epic Weapon Focus (halberd), Great Charisma I, Great Constitution I, Great Strength I, Improved Critical (Scimitar), Knockdown, Power Attack, Silver Palm (mercantile background), Skill Focus (Discipline), Strong Soul (tie to the land), Toughness, Weapon Focus (Halberd), Weapon Focus (Scimitar)

Jaeger Commander / Keeper of Folklore
This alternate version and build has a stronger emphasis on the folklore and the “jaeger” militia of the house. There is more focus on versatility but still an emphasis on toughness. I do see this as a full-plate ranger. Dire Boar companion.

Classes: Bard 10 / Knight Commander 5 / Ranger 15
Abilities: Strength 17, Dexterity 10, Constitution 18, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14
Skill Ranks: Animal Empathy 15, Appraise 15, Discipline 32, Heal 10, Hide 15 (no MS as I see this character as lacking the subtlety for true stealth but still capable of ambushes), Lore 32, Perform 15, Persuade 18, Spot 15, Taunt 15
Feats: Armor Skin, Called Shot, Epic Reputation, Epic Toughness I, Favored Enemy: Humans (bandits), Favored Enemy: Monstrous Humanoids (or whatever the beastmen are), Favored Enemy: Vermin (because them critters are eatin’ our corn!) , Great Constitution I, Knockdown, Resist Disease (blessing of Chauntea), Resist Poison (blessing of Chauntea), Silver Palm, Skill Focus (Discipline), Strong Soul, Toughness

Elorathall wrote:

This ties into my noble house request. I'd like advice on two possible builds. I'd like for them to be thematically appropriate and conceptually sound but still work. I've built them with a few points in mind:

1. Must be Human. I'm thinking about taking the Ffolk subrace to reflect background (also see the points below) but I'm not sure what the outcome of that would be or if it would have any value at all.
2. Must be Neutral Good or True Neutral.
3. The character begins as a merchant but is growing into a role of keeper of (folk)lore. Some of this folklore has some hedge magical properties.
4. The character (and the members of the house in general) have strong ties to the land north of the Minmir and are devout Chaunteans. This tends to manifest as being able to draw strength from the land itself. While this isn't as spectacular as a true clerical or druidic magic, it would still have an influence.
5. The (male) members of the family are broad and stocky. Combined with the tie to the land described above, they tend to be hardier than the average human.
6. While a noble, the house (and its members) in general are less educated in academics and magic but instead emphasize common sense and "hearth wisdom". As such, Wisdom > Intelligence.
7. While not boorish per se, the Brabanders tend to have no interest or patience for pomp or finer etiquette. They're likable in the way a jovial peasant can be likable. As such, while they can have above-average Charisma, it will not usually be as high as other dedicated Charisma characters.

This thus far leads me to two possible builds. I've yet to decide which one to go for as they both seem interesting, and I'd like feedback and suggestions.

Pastoral Champion / Boar Knight
This character is build around the concept of a peasant knight. Some knowledge of folklore is sacrificed for martial ability. However, the tie to the land and a emulating the strengths of the boar make this character exceptionally tough. The character's favored weapon is a warscythe. The scythe is Chauntea's favored weapon, but a farmer's scythe (as this is often interpreted) is a worthless weapon in any battle. A warscythe is basically the scythe blade fixed to a polearm. The secondary weapon would be a badelaar, which is another farming tool turned into a weapon. Due to its design it's easy to cleave off limbs with it.

Classes: Bard 7/Knight Commander 5/Divine Champion of Chauntea 18
Abilities: Strength 17, Dexterity 10, Constitution 20, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 12, Charisma 16
Skill ranks: Appraise 10, Discipline 33, Heal 17, Lore 30, Perform 10, Persuade 15, Spot 20, Taunt 15, Tumble 5
Feats: Armor Skin, Blind Fight, Called Shot (for chopping off limbs), Cleave, Epic Reputation (to reflect Leadership and the ability to draw on the resources of his house), Epic Toughness I, Epic Weapon Focus (halberd), Great Charisma I, Great Constitution I, Great Strength I, Improved Critical (Scimitar), Knockdown, Power Attack, Silver Palm (mercantile background), Skill Focus (Discipline), Strong Soul (tie to the land), Toughness, Weapon Focus (Halberd), Weapon Focus (Scimitar)

Ironically I helped out Ego make a similar build (though with rogue instead of bard) But here's a few things,
WIS does nothing for this character, it will have a high will save from divine champ and it's tied to no class abilities, though I'll keep some here for RP. 2: You don't need that high of a CON, and even if, you might as well get 21 for epic damage reduction, though EDR synnergizes best with a dwarven defender or a barbarian to stack on DR. You can get by with 14. Similarly, you can get by with a 14 CHA instead of 16, 16 is expensive on stat points. CHA is tied to the duration of the divine champion divine wrath, which is really powerful, though you only get one use. If you're okay with an 8 in dex:
Pre-epic: 6/5/9 Bard/KC/Divine Champion
Epic: 7/5/18 Bard/KC/Divine Champion
16/8/14/12/12/14
Pre-epic(8+4DC): Skill Focus Disc, Toughness, Blind Fight, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, IMPR Crit, Cleave, Great Cleave, Knockdown, (3 Free)
Epic(4+3DC): G-Str 1-3, Epic Weapon Focus, Armor Skin, OV Crit, Dev Crit

Quote:

Jaeger Commander / Keeper of Folklore
This alternate version and build has a stronger emphasis on the folklore and the “jaeger” militia of the house. There is more focus on versatility but still an emphasis on toughness. I do see this as a full-plate ranger. Dire Boar companion.

Classes: Bard 10 / Knight Commander 5 / Ranger 15
Abilities: Strength 17, Dexterity 10, Constitution 18, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14
Skill Ranks: Animal Empathy 15, Appraise 15, Discipline 32, Heal 10, Hide 15 (no MS as I see this character as lacking the subtlety for true stealth but still capable of ambushes), Lore 32, Perform 15, Persuade 18, Spot 15, Taunt 15
Feats: Armor Skin, Called Shot, Epic Reputation, Epic Toughness I, Favored Enemy: Humans (bandits), Favored Enemy: Monstrous Humanoids (or whatever the beastmen are), Favored Enemy: Vermin (because them critters are eatin’ our corn!) , Great Constitution I, Knockdown, Resist Disease (blessing of Chauntea), Resist Poison (blessing of Chauntea), Silver Palm, Skill Focus (Discipline), Strong Soul, Toughness

The thing about both bard and ranger is that they're good if you invest in a lot of them. Bard 20 gets winspiration, the near full song, and plenty of buffs. 10 Just doesn't cut it. Same with the ranger, they only get bane of enemies in epic and the animal companion's power is tied to ranger levels. You can make this work, but you'll have to decide if you want heavy bard or heavy ranger. The concept seems to favor heavy ranger, so I'd suggest:

Pre-epic: 16/4 Ranger/KC
Epic: 24/5/1 Ranger/KC/Bard
16/8/14/12/14/12

Pre-epic(8): Skill Focus Disc, Toughness, Weapon Focus, IMPR Crit, Blind Fight, Extend Spell, KD, (Freebie)
Epic(4+3R): EWF, Bane Of Enemies, Armor Skin, Great STR 1, (3 free picks, could take favored enemies)

(Epic Toughness is a waste of a feat though, you have a bit of freedom in your epic picks. Personally, I'd go for epic prowess, epic spot, and epic fortitude (I think the epic fort goes well with the concept))

The1Kobra wrote:

Ironically I helped out Ego make a similar build (though with rogue instead of bard) But here's a few things,
WIS does nothing for this character, it will have a high will save from divine champ and it's tied to no class abilities, though I'll keep some here for RP. 2: You don't need that high of a CON, and even if, you might as well get 21 for epic damage reduction, though EDR synnergizes best with a dwarven defender or a barbarian to stack on DR. You can get by with 14. Similarly, you can get by with a 14 CHA instead of 16, 16 is expensive on stat points. CHA is tied to the duration of the divine champion divine wrath, which is really powerful, though you only get one use. If you're okay with an 8 in dex:
Pre-epic: 6/5/9 Bard/KC/Divine Champion
Epic: 7/5/18 Bard/KC/Divine Champion
16/8/14/12/12/14
Pre-epic(8+4DC): Skill Focus Disc, Toughness, Blind Fight, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, IMPR Crit, Cleave, Great Cleave, Knockdown, (3 Free)
Epic(4+3DC): G-Str 1-3, Epic Weapon Focus, Armor Skin, OV Crit, Dev Crit

14 con seems rather low within the context of a character who is more built around toughness than strength. Also, charisma influences many KC abilities, no?
Is Great Cleave worth taking? Especially at level 30 it seems redundant. Unless I misunderstand how it works and it gives you a free attack on anything in melee range whenever you kill something.
Overall, this build seems more focused on damage output than endurance. While that does seem interesting, it's not entirely what I'm going for. But I'll consider it, because I'm not entirely opposed to it either.

Great Cleave is a pretty useless to take... But it's a pre-req for Dev Crit.

CHA helps KC's, but only up to 20. Keeping all your original stats below 14 gives you the most points to spend. It's not the most ideal character build, but for builds with MAD it's the best you can do sometimes. High Con is really the worst way to go about creating survivability in a build in NWN though, and losing point on the stat that gives you AC or AB hurts.

Ranger 15 seems an odd number to stop on... Your ranger abilities aren't quite useful, and you're missing bane. With the bard/ranger thing, bard16/KC5/ranger9 might be interesting, since that gives you most of the bard song bonuses (but not lasting inspiration) plus str based dual wielding. Focusing on two different melee weapons is stabbing yourself in the foot though, at best.

I don't think ranger really makes the concept though. I'd go for a Bard/MS of some type. DC would be a bit lackluster with 5 levels. Maybe KC, for the knightish aspect you were looking for (paladin would fit too, but not the alignment) which would give you 20 bard for lasting inspiration (make sure to take bard 20 on level 24/27/30 to get LI). You'd be very much party support, but have a lot of options in how to do that, but still be sturdy enough to stand on the front lines. Take 4 KC pre-epic, and all 5 MS in epic levels for best effect. All the stuff for Dev Crit might be a bit tough to fit in that though.

So what would be a better way to go to create a generally "tough"/survivability focused character?
And is Dev Crit a must have?

Also, based on the above, would Bard 20/Knight Commander 5/Master Scout 5 be a feasable build? Not optimal perhaps, but feasable.

Feasable. But you're right, not optimal.

What exactly are you going for when you say survivability? That will inevitably answer your question about Dev Crit. Are you looking to dish it out or take it well? Or both? If you're sticking with those two original build ideas, I'll have to do some building of my own before I can be more helpful, as I've never used KC or MS. But you're talking pretty standard usage of both from what I've seen through the build thread.

Personally, I would prefer a build that is fun and appropriate over one that is optimal.

The idea behind the high HP is to have a character that can take hits and keep coming - just like the boar.
I went for a combination of Bard/Knight Commander/Ranger/Divine Champion (potentially Master Scout) because these combinations better embody the theme and identify of the character. This isn't a true knight. This isn't even a professional soldier. This is (at first) a merchant militiaman who might gradually either become more of a traditional knight (Champion) or a dedicated and flexible jaeger (which would be something between a ranger, skirmisher and guerilla). What this character lacks in specialization, it makes up for in flexibility, improvisation, adhesiveness and knowledge of the land.

20 Bard is strong in general if built properly so it is very doable. Heavy bard doesn't really favor your idea of wanting high HP though. DC is actually a good way of getting high hp if you would be willing to shift around your levels. DC not only has the base 10 HP per level but also can pick up epic toughness feats, and/or epic DR feats if you build with 21 con in mind.

Sounds like less bard is more or less the answer then. Dev crit isn't necessary, but I think it fits your concept better than not having it. Honestly, your first build, with the proposed changes from Kobra, is your best bet from what I've seen so far. However, none of these builds really work well with high con. If that's something you're really into, we'll have to explore other options for a suitable build.

davis114 wrote:

Dev crit isn't necessary, but I think it fits your concept better than not having it.

How so?

davis114 wrote:

If that's something you're really into, we'll have to explore other options for a suitable build.

I'd like to see what alternatives there are and make a decision based on that. It's really something that sticks with me, though to be fair this character doesn't have to be a dedicated juggernaut either (it's not an earth genasi after all). I would like the char to stand out as being noticeably robust/stubborn/tough, but it's not the sole defining feature.

Well, when I think of the knight concept, dev crit just seems to fit that. Plus, it fits that rough image you're going for. Knocking someone down with a powerful blow just seems to go with that concept. However, if you'd like to go for more con, I can play around this evening and see what I can build. What they said earlier in the topic about high con really going well with epic DR, thus DR classes, is true. But it's not the end all of con builds. You gave the classes you think go well with your concept, so let's work with those.

Question, though. How does bard fit into this concept? Aside from charisma base and a general merchant style.

Edit: Nevermind. I went and read your request. Bard does make sense. Let me see what I can come up with.

What about barbarian? You wouldn't take enough to get any of the cooler rages, cause this character doesn't really seem like a full on barbarian. But the idea of taking hits and keeping on coming seems to fit barbarian nicely.

Something like 13 bard/12 barb/5 KC? That way, it fits the rp that he'd be a pretty tough bloke, but he's not going to lose his mind like most barbarians. Plus the rage and song together would help his AB some to make up for the high con, and you wouldn't really need to get Dev crit to make it viable.

Edit: I'm stupid. Obviously 11 bard 14 barb 5 KC would be the optimal route there. But I don't think that much barb, if any at all, fits your concept. Hrm.

Barb is another you really have to invest in heavily to get a good return from. I don't think it fits.

I sorta overlooked the noble house thing, so in reconsideration, I'm going to change my recommendation. I think your second build was closer to your mark, just not well optimized. You seem to want KC, but it doesn't quite fit the concept to me either. Rogue 5/ Ranger 21/ DC 4, or drop the rogue and go ranger 25. Mercantile beginnings always say 'rogue' to me, as they get the most skill points and everything relevant is a class skill. Same for bard, but that reads a bit differently to me, and low amounts of the class synergize less well, but you would still get your tumble/umd dump, plus a bit extra lore. Ranger 25, vs 20, would give your animal companion some extra buffs, or the DC route would give you a bit more flavor and divine connection (possibly to base requests on later). Your getting ranger spells anyways, which is already a pretty strong connection to your god of choice. Ranger 26 would give you another epic feat, but rogue 5 in epic levels for your tumble dump is arguably more important (rouge 4 taken between level 17 and 20 would give you tumble 20, so you'd only lose 2 AC from the standard if you went for ranger 26). Focus on Con and STR, but you won't likely want more than 21 CON, the pre-req for epic DR. EDR, EWF, and Bane would be your epic feat focuses. Bane would give you some extra oomph against your house's enemies, and ranger gives you some self buffing ability. I'd avoid epic toughness, with high CON, you'll get more mileage from epic DR. The builds above, with 21 CON and full +12 CON gear, will have around 650 HP. Your AB will be slightly low for a frontliner, sacrificing some points to CON, but you'll be plenty tough. KC's barricade of swords would be nice on that build, but ranger 25 gives your companion +5 claws (plus some other stuff), and it might be hard to get all 4 stats you'd need where you want them.

The reason I focus on KC is due to it being a d10 full BAB class that focuses on leadership, tactics and use of the terrain rather than dedicated martial ability. And because I've been wanting to play one for a long time no. So there.

As for bard over rogue, I think within the context of this character (who is also a "keeper of lore" for the house) bard fits better. Rogues tend to have an emphasis on stealth and thievery (which isn't applicable to the character), while bards have the same social/trade skills (persuade, bluff, appraise) that rogues have. Also, bards get discipline (needed for KC) which rogues don't have as a class skill. Plus, bards get some spells that can be used to reflect magic based on folklore.

This is all good advice though, I'm taking it into account.

Rogues are flexible, they don't *have* to be about stealth. Just like you're look at a plate armored ranger, the archetype of which is usually a lightly armored woodsman. Of course it's your build though, your the one playing it so you should go for the build that speaks to your concept of the character more.

The only reason I was shying away from rogue is I like the Ffolk idea. And the Ffolk seriously hate rogues. So I do think bard fits the concept better. Not the build, necessarily, but the concept. That's why I lowered the barb levels too, cause too much of that just doesn't fit the concept.

I'd go bard4/21 ranger/5 KC in that build. I think you get more from the 5th level of KC than the 5th level of bard. That would make the bard levels purely skill dumps.

Problem with that is your AB is gonna suck nuts, being con based without any way of boosting your AB from spells or feats.

The reason I originally went for bard 7 was that at that point you can have sufficient Discipline ranks for KC, you get level 3 spells and you're within the fourth "tier" of Bard Song. With only 4 bard levels it feels like you might indeed just as well go for 3 levels of rogue instead, to get the 2d6 sneak attack, uncanny dodge I and a tad more skill points.

As for using Ffolk, the character wouldn't be an actual Ffolk. I do consider (and that's still up in the air because it's not clear what the results would be) the Ffolk subrace to reflect the heritige of the character.

That said, would the AB really be that bad? It would still have 26 full BAB classes, decent strength and no dual-wielding (being a heavy armor ranger instead).

Elorathall wrote:

The reason I originally went for bard 7 was that at that point you can have sufficient Discipline ranks for KC, you get level 3 spells and you're within the fourth "tier" of Bard Song. With only 4 bard levels it feels like you might indeed just as well go for 3 levels of rogue instead, to get the 2d6 sneak attack, uncanny dodge I and a tad more skill points.

As for using Ffolk, the character wouldn't be an actual Ffolk. I do consider (and that's still up in the air because it's not clear what the results would be) the Ffolk subrace to reflect the heritige of the character.

That said, would the AB really be that bad? It would still have 26 full BAB classes, decent strength and no dual-wielding (being a heavy armor ranger instead).

It depends on how much you dump into con tbh.

Lets assume you take 20 pre epic full BAB classes and at least start with 16 base str and never increase it.

25 BAB + 6 (12+ str items) + 3 (str mod) + 5 (+5 weapon) + 3 (weapon focus, and ewf) = 42 AB without any magic buffs or taking into account epic prowess. So it isn't terrible but it isn't the best around. It depends entirely on how you end up dumping into your attribute points. If you go a bit more strength heavy and end with 20 base strength and take epic prowess that is a solid 45 AB.

That is also going to shift downwards if you aren't taking pure full BAB progression classes pre epic.

I've read trough this thread another time and I think I got some good advice. So thank you for everyone who helped out. I'm going to make up my mind about which route to go and tinker a bit more with the details, but I think on the whole I have a direction.

Brabander

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