Playing around with a dwarf build. I didn't see anything similar, and I've never built a Paladin, or a Dev Critter, or a dwarf/DwD. So input would be appreciated.

Gold Dwarf (+2 Con, -2 Dex)

Abilities:
Str 17 (+7, +1 Great Str)
Dex 13 (-2 for 11)
Con 12
Wis 12
Int 8
Cha 12 (+2 from base race for 14)

Feats:
1 Dodge
3 Weapon Focus (Battle Axe or Warhammer)
6 Toughness
9 Improved Crit
12 Power Attack
15 Divine Shield
18 Divine Might
21 Great Str
24 Great Cleave
27 Epic Weapon Focus
30 Armor Skin?
DwD14 Overwhelming Crit
DwD18 Dev Crit

Concerns:
I'd like to fit Brew Potion in there, to augment lacking spellcasting ability.
Taking Great Cleave in epic levels hurts, but pre epic feats are slim.
Not getting the +10 from the divine feats bothers me, but not terribly. AC should be great regardless (in the 60's depending on gear).
Monk/Rogue 1 has to be taken pre-epic, and causes an XP penalty, and loses 1 AB.
May drop Con to 10 and raise Int to 10, but low Con on a dwarf seems terribly wrong.
Lacking Blindfight, could drop Armor Skin for it.
I'd prefer Dwarven Waraxe, but Exotic Weapon does't fit.

Tumble Dump: Monk 3 gets better saves than Rogue 3. Rogue 3 gets UMD and 2d6 sneak attacks and better skill points (along with uncanny dodge). Bard might be an option too, for UMD and slightly better saves. Leaning towards rogue, but skill points will be an issue regardless.

Overall:
Good saves, Good AC, Good continuous damage and average (100 point) crits. 12/- Damage Reduction, plus gear.
Low HP (400ish), for what it is. Really bad skill points. Low on feats. Average AB (42+)

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Ok, wow. Where to start?

First things first, you're abusing the subrace mechanics to get dodge at level one when you would only have 11 dex after subrace activation. Big no no. That has to change before you get any build help, at least from me. Second, what's the final levels of classes you're looking at getting? From your layout, I read it as 9 pally/18 defender/ 3 rogue or monk, but I just wanted to be sure before we continue. You wont be able to get bard in there either, since both pally and dwarven defender require you to be lawful.

Answer those questions then we'll see what we can work with.

9/18/3 yeah. Point on the Bard thing too, that was left over from when I was looking at Barb. Armor Skin could get dropped for another Great Str to move around base stats.

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With only 9 levels, you're still not really building a paladin. You'll have, what? 3 spells/day? You'd be much better off taking fighter instead, IMO.


15/- at level 18

This.

Honestly, I wouldn't mix paladin with DwD, unless you intend to do a whole bunch more paladin and less DwD. That makes more sense, mechanically. 9 Levels of paladin won't really get you anything, so I'd go with fighter, as suggested.

Off the top of my head, 15 / 14 / 1 could work. Paladin/DwD/Monk. Still not enough paladin for my taste, but that does fit your concept. The problem with mixing paladin and DwD is you really want a good amount of either class to be effective in a build. I wouldn't go less than 14 in a good DwD build, but I normally wouldn't suggest less than 20 in a good paladin build. So...eh.

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I played a Paladin20/DwD6/Fighter4 for some time. He excelled every other paladin build in soloing the Brog Manor owing to the sneak immunity and paladin juice. With the newest modifications to Divine Favour, though, you'd have to build that as Pal21/DwD5/Fighter4, but that's not a great loss, because you're better off using the 5/+5 DR cloak anyway. The better way to build a Pal/DwD would of course be Pal23/DwD6/Rogue or Monk1, and the best way to build a paladin would be to drop out DwD altogether.

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Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill
All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person
I know you heard this and probably in fear
-Kendrick Lamar, good kid

Huh, so it's the spells that make a paladin? I never woulda thought. It seems a front loaded class to me. 9 pally gets (up to) +9 saves, +9 damage, +9 AC, immunity to fear, while maintaining full BAB and 10 HP/level. Fighter of equal level would get 5 more feats, but can't touch any of that. Everything except powered spells are available to a pally at low levels.

Is divine favor really all that? The static 1 turn duration always turned me off to it.

Double checked the DwD DR, its 12/- at 18, unless that's an undocumented changed for Amia. 22 gets 15/-

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You're supposed to extend that. It is super important for PvM since you can take your dose between every spawn and you have level 1 and 2 spell slots galore. In PvP, all of the paladins' buffs are short-lived, alike the Divine Favour, so you have to time your attack correctly anyhow.

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Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill
All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person
I know you heard this and probably in fear
-Kendrick Lamar, good kid

Smite Evil and Lay on Hands are the iconic Paladin abilities, or so I thought. The saves are my personal fave about the class, only being slightly above the aforementioned two and spell casting (bless wpn, GMW, Aura of Glory, Holy Sword). Divine might and shield just seem cheap. I mean, will he be able to hold his own without them? Remember, there's no Extra Turning factored in there. And with the saves and holy sword he can be mage killin' SOB, assuming his whole package isn't set around buffs. Or are divine might/shield not dispelable? I don't actually know that one.




See:




Also:


Yes sir, you are correct. Every 4 lvls after 10, idk how I got that one mixed up.

Now, I feel the need to say this, cause I feel like I'm being a critique-ing douche, roll with whatever build you want. I'm just throwing my 2 cents in. With a level cap of 30 a real good paladin/dwd is hard to pull off. 20 pal/18 dwd/2 rogue or 21/18/1 would be sweet. I'd honestly try to pull off 30 pally if I could, or rather 20 I guess, for this setting.

No worries on critiquing, these are all areas (dwarfs and paladins) I've never looked at much. I'd love to build a good smiter, but the level cap doesn't seem to be very good for it.

The extra feats from fighter wouldn't matter so much IMO... 2 of the 5 would go to specialization, brew wouldn't be needed anymore, and the 2 divine feats would be freed up anyways. It would be left with the same build, with lower saves and a few feats floating. I play so many low save rogues that high saves have been a big push in my builds lately. The point was really a dwarf dev critter; DwD seemed thematic, and paladin just made for a nice base class.

I think I just don't understand how paladins play. Or maybe casters in total. I'm fairly terrible with wizards, and have no idea how 3 spells/level (which is the max paladins get per level) is 'spell slots galore'. 9 uses of divine shield isn't enough, but 9 turns of divine favor is (assuming no other 1st or 2nd level spells are wanted)?

Maybe, to totally redo a build no one seems to like, Monk 7/ DwD18/ KC 5? Would lose the full tumbledump in favor of full KC abilities. No UMD, and loses 10+ AC. Character concept is a bit fuzzier on that one, and loses effectiveness against all the undead in the module.

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I'll admit I never have used divine favor. Divine Shield, on the other hand, I have used a little and did like it, however, I personally wouldn't count on that to keep a low CON front-liner from burning through potions/healing kits. Granted, it may work just fine. As you stated with dwarves and paladins, divine favor/might/shield are areas I haven't explored fully.



Yeah, I see what you mean.

I almost am thinking drop dwd to 10 and pump up paladin.. But at the same time that's a loss of HP and DR, and I think will saves would drop a little too. If I get time in the next couple of days I'll check this build out in more detail.

I'm not saying it's a horrible build. Just that both the DwD class and Paladin class benefit from a majority level spread. So mixing them is difficult. As to your second build, that would be fairly interesting. But you had an original concept, and I think you should stick with it. We can make it work, if it's what you want. And it CAN work. It's just difficult.

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