Hi, using the potentially appropiate [TTW] or "Testing the Waters" tag to put forward an untested build combination. The finer details are not determined yet so I am only looking for suggestions on the class combination and whether there are reasons to increase or reduce the amount of one class. I'll provide what each class brings mechanically and what I want on the table as a starting point.

A way to "jump" to another location (shadowjump).
A way to directly "infect" other players or creatures (Infestation of Maggots, Contagion, Creeping Doom)
A way to passively "infect" other players or creatures around me (aura of despair)
A way to "disappear from sight" (HiPS).
A way to summon a creature that can "infect" other players or creatures by proxy or by touch (Epic Shadow Lord).
A way to immitate high reflexes (Epic Dodge).
A way to shift in to another creature (Wild Shape).

14 Druid, 3 Blackguard, 13 Shadow Dancer

Dex Based.

Druid:
Level 7 Spells (Creeping Doom).

Blackguard:
Aura of Despair.

Shadow Dancer:
Epic Dodge
Epic Shadow Lord
Improved Shadow Jump
Hide in Plain Sight
Shadow Daze

As you can see it's not a powerbuild (Low Daze DC, Low Shadow Lord DC, Low Spell DC), but if there are any ways to increase the amount of Shadow Dancer levels without losing any of the other key features, I'd love to hear it. The only possible thing I can think of is reducing Druid by one (to 13) and making it SD (14), but I think it's not possible to do as I won't meet the Skill requirements for SD without the 14 Druid.

Mods, I hope this format is OK. Thanks.

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For what I'm aware of, as a Blackguard they bound their blood and soul to a Demon / Devil, though you should ask a BG player or DM. So for the Druid you may have to make one for Malar if you intend to use spells. Would help if you give me small information about the character, being Race and Gender e.tc. But here is what I came up with on my behalf of it.

Things to remember:
1. You require 13-14 Strength to get Power Attack, and Cleave. Cleave being a Key feat for a requirement as a Blackguard class.
2. 14 Wisdom because with somewhat high caster focus you'll need Wisdom of course.
3. 10 Intelligence to get Hide / Move Silent and any other skills you desire.

But as I worked out a small test build to help you, it's not possible to do that many levels of Druid, and 3 BG. With no class that has "Hide" and "Move Silent" skills you spend 2 for 1 point. That means most of your Skill points just go in Hide and Skill to get it past 10. At Druid 13 / BG 3 Pre-Epic you are still 1 skill point to low to take Shadowdancer. Which means you have to either add up Druid levels, which is unwise with such low Wisdom and the need for Epic Dodge, you'll have to use all your Stat points to Dex. So reduce your Druid amount and up your Blackguard may work, unsure. You can still get all the Shadowcdancer tools if you work hard, and some Blackguard tools. If you do more BG base you can do with more BG tools, with 14 Wisdom you should get most of them. Though no Divine Shield or Might with 8 Charisma. Sorry to say.. I suggest you drop Druid and go Cleric or something else.. Main reason is as far as I know a BG bounds himself to a Demon or Devil. A waste to have a NE (NE is forced for a Evil druid) Druid. If you desire spells that limits what deity you get, because the only evil druid deity I know of is Malar. So there you are forced a Alignment, forced a Deity (If you desire a caster Druid, you can still stack druid but aren't allowed to cast spells.) With what you desire this build is really tight on stats, and the like. So I seriously suggest dropping one of the three classes. Druid would make sense over the other two. I also suggest if you are trying to do a caster base you reduce how much caster due to how tight your stats are going to be. In all honesty re-think the whole concept.

Hope this shines light.

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Thanks for the feed back Libris.

I suppose I can expand a bit more on the concept. I've been pretty open to the limitations imposed on me because none of this will go ahead without a PRC request approval. I am going for a Master of Flies / Lord of Flies concept, with Baalzebul (Lord of the 7th Layer of Hell) as my patron.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Baalzebul
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... #Baalzebul



Details on the Lord of Flies PRC (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2445251).
Details on the Master of Flies PRC (http://dndtools.pw/classes/master-of-flies/)

With that said, Druid is the only class in the game that offers the requirements and spells needed for these PRC's, and the nature of the class fits it too. I'm not 100% if I am able to worship Baalzebul as a druid, but I'd like to hope that there was room for movement on getting to goal I'm looking at by repurposing the mechanics via the PRC request.

I have actually made the build in a private module and was able to get everything I listed in the OP, it is very tight, but doable, I just didn't know if I could budge on something somewhere in the build.

Does that help explain the build combination a little better?

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Ah, that helps a bit more! I don't now much about the "Lord of Flies" deity. I can see how it makes sense in some way as a BG druid. But you'd have to talk to the DM team about that. I'm not 100% sure your allowed to play a caster-druid without serving a druid deity.

Did you make this build in a Amia Module with all the Haks? Because I just did and it's not possible to gather all those materials you desire and make it fit in that build. I could be wrong, but Amia does have a good change.

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Blackguards can also be sworn to a deity, so a blackguard/druid isn't that unfeasible. I'm pretty sure this includes neutral deities, as I believe Hoar has one or two blackguards running around like Saw villains.

That said, the list of explicitly evil druid deities includes Auril, Malar, Talos, Talona (the gal for all your infectious needs) and Umberlee. Sebek and Urdlen may or may not count as well, I'm not sure. I also know a couple folks have been playing around with the remaining powers of the dead god Moander, including one druid. That one might require a request, though.

_________________
Currently playing:
Aven Brinyflask
Safaya Dalai
Riyit
Chsera Hile

(Credits to Raua for the sprite, sauce -here-.)

The idea would be to use the following mechanism to obtain my spells through worship/prayer:



I did import all the Haks to the module. To clarify, I had 14 Druid, 3 BG, 13 SD, I don't believe its possible with 13 Druid.

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There is almost no limitation to what you can say you got your BG powers from. As long as your character is evil aligned, bg is perfectly appropriate.

The only thing that's going to take some serious creativity is gaining divine spells as a druid with your character concept. It can be done.

Why does everyone see evil druid and immediately say Malar? Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine. Besides, this concept screams druid of Talona to me, and looks fun. Almost makes me want to make a character and start a disease spreading cult with you.

For starters, blackguard in lore only requires friendly contact with an evil outsider. It doesnt have to be a faustian bargan with a demon or devil. Druids can summon outsiders already so it's not that much of a stretch.

On to the build. Have you considered druid/shifter/blackguard? 5 druid/5 blackguard/20 shifter gives you everything in your list except for shadowjump and epic dodge. You can even turn into a slaad and summon your own slaad that lays eggs in things.

Well that sounds promising! I'd likely need help getting to that point as I have never requested a PRC before and this could be a potentially difficult one to start with! As for the spells, I'd even be happy not being able to cast anything but Infestation of Maggots, Contagion and Creeping Doom with 1 summon creature spell (so that I could have a summonable swarm of flies).

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With that build, you'd be able to cast those spells with the help of items. Has great saves as well.

I'd love some more cultists with me, feel free if it goes ahead! Regarding the Shifter build. I have given it some thought, yes. I considered going for Spectre shape and getting a custom skin as a pack of flies, thus also obtaining the "HiPS" so that i could perform my "swarm dispersal" into an untargetable mass of single flies that would be spread over an area, giving the illusion that I am no longer in direct sight. The spectres concealment bonus would be represented by the difficulty of actually hitting a nimble fly.

The reason I didn't pursue it is because I also wanted the ability to turn into a swarm of flies and re-appear at another location out of the swarm back into a humanoid figure (this would use the shadow jump mechanism). Again, huge stretch of class mechanics and bound to DC requests, but the only way to achieve it and not impossible. This was also possible through the SD class.

The other reason was that I wanted a summon that could emulate a pack of stinging, infectious flies. The Epic Shadowlord. Obviously another DC request and further bending of the mechanics and class, but the abilities all fit. Not impossible.

Do druids continue gaining spells through Shifter levels? I would still need CL 13 to get Creeping Doom, so either Shifter applies towards CL or I'd need that 13 levels of Druid.

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They dont gain more spells, however with that build you'll have high enough wisdom (27 by my guess) to use one of the many spell slot items found throughout the islands to be able to cast the spells you want.

*edit: A swarm form was requested a while ago, however it's a booger to script or make a form that isnt completely overpowered with all the inherent immunities a swarm has. The requested form was denied if i remember correctly.

Ahh spell slot items. The abilities the spectre form has would do well enough to emulate the swarm properties, whether it could be agreed on is another matter. The flies could maybe be tuned enough to be decayed, filthy and as near death as they could be to fit the undead shape type. Difficult one.

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Druid/Shifter/Blackguard sounds like a lot of fun. I kinda want to make one myself now...

EDIT: Just had a look at the General Questions thread, apparently Baalzebul is dead in the Amiaverse. Might want to check in with the DMs on that.

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Currently playing:
Aven Brinyflask
Safaya Dalai
Riyit
Chsera Hile

(Credits to Raua for the sprite, sauce -here-.)

...well, shit.








Either I worship a dead god unknowingly, or I set my sights on Talona, and try and keep the concept and PRC alive. Opinions?


Edit:

For the sake of exploring other options, I looked over the the idea of returning to the Shifter approach.

I'm considering the following class combinations to try and match my original goals to meet the Lord of Flies (or Lady of Flies for Talona) theme.

13 Druid / 7 Blackguard / 10 Shifter

This combination gives me the following abilities and spells:

Infestation of Maggots
Contagion (From Druid and BG)
Creeping Doom (Level 7 Spellcasting)
Druid Companion (Phase Spider, reskinned to a fly swarm)
Druid Summon VII (reskin to fly swarm using Vermin summon type)
Undead Shape (Spectre, to be reskined to a swarm if possible. Options for unique swarm abilities like additional on-hit infestation of maggots?)
- Improved Evasion as per Skittish / Level 5 of Lord of Flies.
- 5d6 Sneak from BG and Spectre (The swarm encompassing a target and stinging from all directions)
- Crippling Strike (Try moving effectively with a swarm of flying insects on you)
Aura of Despair (Aura of Flies)
HiPS (Spectre, Swarm dispersal)
Use Posion

Since I will have BG levels, I can take a bit of Charisma and cash in on Taunt as an additional way to represent the irritation and distraction of a swarm of stinging, posionous flies and use it whilst in Spectre form after a round of sneak attacks. The question is, how much Charisma to take?

I think this already looks like a more viable and easier way to approach the Lord of Flies PRC than using Shadow Dancer, so perhaps there is hope yet!

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The most base charisma you would need is 14. Using the +6 charisma cloak, and a weapon that had +2 charisma on it, you're only a potion away from maxing out your blackguard bonus of +7. Also, look up the swarm shifter in Libris Mortis. Along with some nifty abilities, it has a lot of good info on swarms in it, and undead swarms in particular.

Talona seems to fit your concept the best. I would make a request though and let the DM's know of your intentions with the character so that it keeps them in the loop and you dont get smacked with a fall for using a wierd build to emulate the prc you're looking at.

You might consider going for more druid instead of shifter. The air elemental shape druids get might fit better, maybe with a reskin. I'm not feeling the undead on this one, not to mention undead shape on an actual druid at all is a bit off to me. Maybe Druid25/BG5? Also note, the sneak attack has been lowered on the spectre shape.

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Lascar, can you throw me a link to where you saw the changes to the Spectre Sneak Attack reduction? The Shifter Spreadsheet from the sidebar link still lists the Sneak Attack 5d6 (I actually forgot to add the 2d6 from the BG levels to the 5d6 I mentioned in my post, so I'd be looking at a 7d6 Sneak if the 5d6 from Spectre isnt nerfed.)

Also, I looked at the air elemental shape. It just doesn't offer anywhere near the same amount of utility that the Spectre shape does and will leave me without a lot of the tools needed to fufill the RP of the PRC.



Versus



I'm not a huge fan of the whole Druid/Shifter Undead either, but I have to look at what fits mechanically with the PRC. I think a swarm of decaying, putrid and filthy "undead" flies matches the Spectres abilities far more than what is offered by the Air Elemental.

Thanks for the suggestion though!

Solvaras, I'll check out the Swarm Shifter, sounds useful.

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It's specifically the undead thing that bugs (heh) me about it. This means even with a reskin it will have undead immunities AND weaknesses, like getting harmed by healing magic which doesn't make sense for a living disease based concept. The elemental gets the same sneak/crit/mind immunities, and the whirlwind attack with damage based off level +knockdown seems fitting for a swarm (greater level/damage showing greater control of the swarm, knockdown simulating people incapacitated by the swarm). Sonic seems more fitting for a swarm of vermin than cold and negative damage to me too. Having an option for a pulse attack (not sure what it does) seems more in keeping with swarm dynamics as well. Just a thought though. There was a big discussion about swarms and the limitations of NWN recently (I think the same one solvaras is talking about).

The reduced sneak attack is something I've brought up, after playing a shifter (one focused on that shape). The shape was nerfed but the sheet was not updated. It's 2 or 3d6 now. Keep in mind with the shifter build, that single shape is ALL you will be good at doing (well, the three that feat gives). Your spells will be very low level, with your spellcasting class almost half your build, along with a weak companion. You won't reach any of the fun blackguard stuff. And your shifter stuff will be weak as well (especially AC, shifter AC being based off level). You'll have one good shape that sorta works with the concept, and nothing else. That might be okay, but I thought it should be mentioned at least.

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I can see what you are getting at Lascer, I'm just trying to match the abilities that the Lord of Flies PRC has as best I can, obviously there will be holes when you throw a skin over another creature (like the damage from healing spells, but i imagine if you sprayed a fly with disinfectant/bleach, it may not fair too well either, so...).

I do like the Barbarian Speed and Expeditious Retreat the air elemental offers though, and yes Sonic is a better damage type than Cold but I think Neg energy or Acid could better represents the energy sapping/attritious nature of the flies? Can anyone with a 25 Druid help out and give us a bit of their experience with the use of the Whirlwind Pulse and it's effectiveness?

As a note, I happy to completely conceed to being practically useless in a fight, and fully acknowledge that I will rely on having 1 or two tricks, as long as I have those few little tricks as a tool to carry out my RP. I don't want to use other forms that my Lord of Flies wouldnt be granted, the idea is to simply use Shifter as the class that mechanically provides what I need, and not to actually be a "normal" Shifter, the 10 levels of Shifter would be my 10 levels of Lord of Flies PRC if that were agreed upon.

Likewise if I go down the 25 Druid route, I'd have to level to 16 using spell very limited spell casting (only spells that would match the theme) and companions/summons until I obtained Elemental Shape and then use that until the next upgrade at level 20 for Greater Elemental Shape and so on until level 25+ for Elder Elemental Shape.

Not expecting an easy ride with all the restrictions I've set upon myself, but anything I can do to improve the ride with what I will have is why I appreciate your feedback. I certaintly don't expect to be able to solo anything, so if anyone is interested in Talona and starting a plague...

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I don't think leveling will be that tricky if you go heavy druid. Vermin summons and either a giant spider or dire rat companion (or maybe a hawk, reskinned as a crow or vulture) would give you a decent little band of biohazards, and assuming you're not denying yourself the use of buffs it should be all you need until you hit 16, at which point the air elemental knockdown pulse will let you slaughter the beastmen with ease.

It's not optimal, but still much more grindable than, say, a bard or rogue.

_________________
Currently playing:
Aven Brinyflask
Safaya Dalai
Riyit
Chsera Hile

(Credits to Raua for the sprite, sauce -here-.)

I remembered I had a level 18 druid that I was able to test the first Air Elemental shape on, it seemed decent, about DC 33 Reflex on the AoE knockdown and around 50 damage on Beastmen. I imagine that would be higher on the level 25 version.

For the sake of arguement, do you forsee the Shifter version being far harder to level, or once will things go pretty smoothly once I got access to Spectre shape?

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Druid will be easier by far. You get two level-appropriate summons and better spells to give them some hefty buffs. Shifters might be more useful in a party (dat ability spam), but for solo leveling you'll be sacrificing a lot of your damage output because you'll have to use the tankier shapes to stay alive.

And when it comes to endgame power, I don't think there's really any contest. The wraith may or may not be stronger than the air elemental overall, but druids get solid summons, and the knockdown pulse lets them chew up monsters like popcorn.

_________________
Currently playing:
Aven Brinyflask
Safaya Dalai
Riyit
Chsera Hile

(Credits to Raua for the sprite, sauce -here-.)