Lots and lots of combat feats, Improved Knockdown from Monk levels, and the allegedly super badass LE epic Blackguard summon.
Base Dex 22 at max level, so AC with good gear around 55ish, 8 attacks per round at about +45 with basic potion buffs.
Base Str 14 to get Divine Shield and Divine Might, to boost those combat numbers higher.
Base Int 12 to get 33 ranks in Discipline and Concentration, 30 in Tumble, lots of other skill points (49!) to spread around for RP purposes.
Base Wis 14 to get all of Amia's fluffy Blackguard toys, and a good starting point from which to build Monk AC from +Wis gear.
Base Cha 14 to get a good Dark Blessing / Divine Shield / Divine Might starting point to build from with +Cha gear.
Questions:
Is it worth piling some of those unallocated skill points cross-class into 16 ranks of Spellcraft, for bonuses against saves vs spells?
Are Great Fortitude and Epic Fortitude the best choices for those spare feats? Gret Will / Epic Will instead? Something else? (Toughness maybe?)
So there's my feeble gesture in the direction of pretending that I have a clue about building characters. Let the shredding begin! Expose my ignorance, O Mighty Builders!
_________________ Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026 Character Portraits!
Last edited by Liz on Sat, Jul 25 2015, 18:23 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: 17 May 2005 Location: Somewhere deep in Finland.
With 14 charisma +12 from gear you'll end up with 8 mod, meaning 48s Divines.. Which I find a little short, I might look in to balancing Cha/Dex a little bit.
The AB of this build is going to be a bit low, whetever you go 22 dex or 18 Dex/Cha. I'd consider maxing taunt and perhaps even taking Epic Skill Focus in it.
As for Great fort.. I'd swap it to Extra Turning, it's always nice to have those 6 more Turn Undead to burn on divines, and the build I tried this on (18 Dex/Cha) ended up with: 37 Fort/34 Reflex/32 Will with stats maxed but no saves gear, which I find high enough.
And since it's a build with loads of attacks and decent sneak, you'll probably end up using Darkness a lot, along with haste(Since that makes using Divines so much easier).
The builds AC will be decent.. But it's build upon dex without uncanny dodge and Dodge AC from divine shield, which can be a bit of issue in a group, or if you get disabled somehow.. The Epic Fiend should help with that somewhat, ofc.
Lack of UMD might make maxing Dex/Cha/Wis/Con a bit difficult, but such is the path of Monk/BG.. That's all I've got to say.
Ah, Extra Turning instead of Great Fortitude does seem sensible, thanks.
I don't have enough skill points to be both a sneak and a taunter, unless I drop some other stat by 2 to add to INT for another +30 skill points. Do you think it's worth going down to, say, CON 8 in order to be a sneak and taunter both?
_________________ Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026 Character Portraits!
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
To me it would be better. I never really touch a build without 14 Intelligence. You don't really need 10 Constitution, though the extra Hit points is nice. You can get gear to fix that. It'll only hurt you lower levels. If you invest in Taunt you can reduce some one to a very vulnerable stage.
Joined: 17 May 2015 Location: Zionyn - 663rd layer of the Abyss
As with anything with monk levels, quarterstaff would be massively better. There's simply nothing 'better' in the game as it stands than a two handed weapon that gets uBAB APR. It's not just the 1.5 STR damage, it's the extra mythal space large two handed weapons get. You'd have to respec from DEX focus to STR, and lose some AC to that. Not much though, just 4, since your stats are so diverse anyways.
You'll only need to get to +6 WIS mod, for the monk AC benefit at least, so it shouldn't be -that- hard to get your stats where you want them. Keep in mind the BG spells (Bulls and Eagles) stack with other castings/potions, plus abyssal might. Unfortunately DEX, your most important stat, will be the one you need to work on the most to max.
I'm rocking a similar build, and grinding has been slower than expected, mostly because everything is more level dependent than most melee builds are. It's slow to blossom, but it is very flexible.
Put at least a point in spellcraft, you can't buff it with items without some training. Your saves should be pretty spectacular regardless, so I wouldn't worry about it too much (though it never hurts). Keeping the save bonus feats might be good since most of your gear slots will be used for stat bonuses.
You might consider pushing the last fighter levels to 29 and 30, to get the epic fiend a few levels earlier. Won't matter in the end of course.
Your somewhat feat stretched going for the two weapon thing, but you might consider dropping a couple levels of fighter for more monk, since each monk level increases how much AC you get from wisdom. With how stretched your abilities already are, it might not be worth it to add another you want to max.
It's already a Dex / Wis / Cha build, adding a fourth stat in there just seems like too much. With a quarterstaff, I'd get five mythal slots, but with two kamas, I get eight, right? Four on each? Wouldn't I actually be losing mythal slots if I go quarterstaff?
I do like switching the order of the last three levels, though. That's kind of so obvious I don't know why I didn't already have it that way.
_________________ Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026 Character Portraits!
Joined: 17 May 2015 Location: Zionyn - 663rd layer of the Abyss
It's already 4 stats, since you'll want as much CON buff as you can get too.
Sucks you won't get knockdown til level 27, but I can't see a way around that without altering the level spread.
Oh, and don't worry (as much) about the lack of uncanny dodge. It doesn't effect dodge AC, just DEX AC (flat-footed always loses dodge and tumble AC, so avoid it). That's still a lot on a DEX based build, but it's not build shattering.
Whether I'm worried about having Uncanny or not, I've definitely accepted that there's no way I'm ever going to get it.
And yeah, I'm definitely not going to try to invest in a fifth stat. I think I'm already committed to Dex fighting. Str x1.5 damage would be nice, but I'm not tempted to completely bork the build for it.
_________________ Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026 Character Portraits!
Joined: 17 May 2005 Location: Somewhere deep in Finland.
So about Con: With 10 con you'd have 288hp at 30, with 8 con 258hp, add con boost to that of 2-12(30-180) it's 318-468hp with 10 con and 288-438hp with 8 con.. Which really makes it a matter of how much are you willing to squeeze from your items/buffs. 400+ on a build like this is decent in my opinion. (Note: a BG spell grants +2 Dex/Str/Con which stacks with the usual ability buffs, so just plain potion & spell will grant you 4-7 con already, barring dispell.)
I'm a bit crossed because of the quarterstaff.. Since the BG Bulls strength stacks with the normal version of it, giving you a total of 6-12 Str from spells and pots already.. It's a bit risky.(BG Bulls 2-5, normal Bull's 2-5 and BG spell 2.)
About mythal slots on weapons: While you do indeed have 8 slots from dual kamas, they won't be as useful as the 5 from quarterstaff. You'll end up using 3 of the kama slots on both kamas on: +4 Enchant, Dmg and Keen.. And I would recommend vamp reg too, since you have a lot of attacks here. Anyhow, you'd end up with only 1 free slot, as with quarterstaff you'd use the same 3 things.. Enchant, dmg and keen.. And have 2 slots left.
Back to Kamas vs Quarterstaff. Twin kamas will bite off 2 AB from your already low-ish AB and 3 pre-epic feats.. Which ain't a biggy here, also the base dmg between the two is the same and the 1.5 str modifier shouldn't be a large factor ether.. Well, not before you take in account that Warforged Quarterstaff is 2d8 piercing, keen and 2d10 massive crits, while Sureforged kama is 1d10 bludgeon and keen.
As said before, Monk/BG is a harsh on stats.. But there are some items that fit the build.. Such as Amulet of pure evil: +3 Cha/Wis, but no AC.. Get AC from BG spell here and you'll have +4 natural for 16 minutes. I'd say it's doable, even if it means not getting any saves or full con from gear(Might still hit +12 from buffs, tho). BG buffs help surprisingly lot here(I don't think Eagles splendor stacks the same way BGs Bulls does, though.)
If you do give up the twin kamas, opening up 3 feats gives you options such as Luck of heroes/Strong soul/Great fort/Lighting reflex/Iron will and Toughness, or if you go for 14 int; Expertise/Disarm(Imp. Disarm being great with large weapons, if you find people with small weapons that is.)
Now I don't think dropping monk levels is the solution here.. It feels like handicapping yourself just so you can go "Well, don't need that wisdom anymore, hah!". Besides, there's little need for more fighter bonus feats, 4 monk taken pre-epic gives nice buff to saves and you gotta save atleast 1 for epic(5th monk level being another +1 AC, not dependent on wisdom), monk AC not disappearing on flat-flooting is also worth something and ofcourse, the Imp. KD and another 10% more speed at 6th level.. Which is really nice.
In simple terms, +Quarterstaff = More AB, Dmg per hit(perhaps even in total), bludgeon dmg type can be more useful than slashing, better mythaling, you'll only have 1 cast of BG weapon spells anyhow, 3 pre-epic feats freed, disarm? and cheaper since you only need one. -Quarterstaff = May end up spreading yourself too thin on stats, be the old man with a cane. +Kamas = More AC, really brings out that sneak attack and 2 More attacks. -Kamas = The -2 to AB will hurt this build, 3 feats used up.
I'm sure there's more to this that I haven't quite thought of, but.. I actually favor the quarterstaff now, but it's not about what's best but what fits your concept ofc.
My concept for the character doesn't really hinge on a specific combat style at all, so whatever works better is the way to go, for sure.
I'm just super twitchy about focusing on Str/quarterstaff instead of Dex/kamas. The -4 hit to AC just feels like a killer to me. If I'm calculating that right, even if the character manages to acquire all +5 AC gear, and with a super duper +12 Divine Shield running, that's a max AC in the area of like 63, right? Pardon my ignorance here, but is that a lot? I see other monk builds discussed around here getting up to well over 70. And this build isn't running with Epic Dodge or any damage reduction to speak of. Wouldn't I just get pummeled to death in every significant fight? I definitely approve of not having to take finesse / 2-weapon / improved 2-weapon / ambidexterity, and opening those four feats for other stuff. Four feats is a whole darn lot. But jeez, that -4 AC. I just can't get my brain around that.
_________________ Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026 Character Portraits!
Joined: 17 May 2015 Location: Zionyn - 663rd layer of the Abyss
BG Eagle's stacks like BG Bull's does, they are both feats rather then spells.
You'll get more mileage out of the sneak attacks with the kamas. You'll also get +2 AB from flanking, t counter the -2 from dual wielding. You can also stack any item's you might find granting rogue sneak attacks with BG sneak attacks. If you are doing a sneaker, this is the route to go. It's also nice to fish for 1's with your off hand weapon while your main does damage, something with a blind or daze would synergize well. Using monk AC you don't really get the option of changing your off hand weapon out for a shield when things get hairy though.
The QS version will spit out more damage (even with lower APR), and without needing to flank, and with higher AB. But not focusing on DEX will cost you some AC (which you could regain some by taking more monk levels), and your sneak skills will be lower. Freeing up the dual wielding feats would let you take expertise/Improved Expertise too, giving you AC when needed. They aren't entirely different builds, but they lend themselves to different things better. The QA version benefits from buffing -every- stat except INT too. This is the position I'm in on my build and it kinda sucks.
63 AC is pretty good. It requires a minimum +44 AB to hit, and then only 10% of the time. Depends on what you are trying to do though. I'm not so good with PvP numbers, but it should get you through most PvE just fine.
More monk levels, to get 1 more point of base Monk AC, improved evasion at Monk 10, and 4 more points of AC available below the Wis cap.
Better saves, due to more Monk levels pre-epic and four fewer feat slots dedicated to combat feats, opening up various saving throw bonus feats.
Higher Int means the build can accommodate Taunt, Hide, and Move Silently at around 30 ranks, in addition to Discipline and Concentration.
Epic Fiendish Servant way earlier, to assist in grinding those last few levels.
Improved Knockdown from Monk levels at level 8, early enough to actually be useful for leveling.
Great Fortitude at level 6 is negotiable, though the build doesn't yet meet any of the requirements for any of its later feats at that point. Would Disarm be worth it here, even without a feat slot available for Improved Disarm anywhere?
Disadvantages over the previous:
Having to spread buffs and mythal slots over five stats. Ouch.
Base Con of 8 instead of 10 means fewer HP.
Fewer Fighter levels means no feat slot available for any Epic Skill Focus.
Loss of Dex AC due to focusing on Str instead, though with fantastic gear this can be offset by Advantage 1 above.
Slightly lower base attack, due to more Monk levels pre-epic, though possibly offset by not taking -2 to attack for two-weapon fighting.
Having to blow an epic feat slot on a non-epic feat at lvl 30, to fit in both Weapon Specialization and Epic Weapon Specialization with only 4 fighter levels.
What do you think, y'all?
_________________ Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026 Character Portraits!
Couldn't you squeeze in the Improved Disarm without Luck of Heroes or Strong Soul, if you want to give it a try? From other people's experience, the feat is a weebit unwieldy in comparison to IKD, especially since your AB will be a middling mid-40s. It's a lackluster feat, except for the few unknockdownable opponents zero of which come to mind.
I might rate Listen over Concentration. Partying with a Bard will guarantee you a high enough Listen with minimal investment, or then you can always hope the sneak is geared lazily enough to make your unmaxed Listen worthwhile. After all, it is the inferior means of detection. Stuff with Amplify uses per day is also nifty for hearing out eavesdroppers! But Concentration might be mechanically more frequently in use with the looming threat of Taunt everpresent.
I can't find more to comment on, but fret not; WS into EWS as epic feats is always a worthy sacrifice to the gods of damage and fun!
_________________ Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person I know you heard this and probably in fear -Kendrick Lamar, good kid
Joined: 17 May 2015 Location: Zionyn - 663rd layer of the Abyss
With a large weapon, disarm would be worthwhile. Improved disarm is most useful for using it with a smaller weapon. But having knockdown AND disarm is usually redundant.
Improved evasion isn't that much better than regular evasion. I'm not seeing any immediate difference not taking monk10 would work for though. Just saying if you sacrificed anything for it, don't.
I don't think you can take Extra Turning at BG 1. They don't get turning until level 3.
Overall I might still go with the kama version, but the QS thing still merited being mentioned on any monk build. Needing that many stats is tough.
I don't think you can take Extra Turning at BG 1. They don't get turning until level 3.
... well, crap. Why oh why is there not an Amia build test module, with its modifications included?
That's four feats I don't meet prerequisites for until level 10 or after, with only three feat slots available. So it's either back to more fighter levels pre-epic, or something has to get cut. Grrr.
_________________ Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026 Character Portraits!
Joined: 17 May 2015 Location: Zionyn - 663rd layer of the Abyss
Liz wrote:
... well, crap. Why oh why is there not an Amia build test module, with its modifications included?
That's four feats I don't meet prerequisites for until level 10 or after, with only three feat slots available. So it's either back to more fighter levels pre-epic, or something has to get cut. Grrr.
I applied the Amia haks to my build module and ended up with a good portion of the modifications. It lets me test out master scouts and knight commanders (but not use their abilities, of course). Extra turning was available to a BG too. For some strange reason it broke my build modules ability to create weapons though, which makes it a pain.
Well, in any case, the build still works if I push Fighter level 3 to pre-epic, so I can qualify for Improved Critical a bit earlier. Which lets me get Divine Might / Shield at levels 12 / 15 instead of 15 / 18, and leave Extra Turning until 18. So, all to the good.
_________________ Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026 Character Portraits!
My concept for the character doesn't really hinge on a specific combat style at all, so whatever works better is the way to go, for sure.
I'm just super twitchy about focusing on Str/quarterstaff instead of Dex/kamas. The -4 hit to AC just feels like a killer to me. If I'm calculating that right, even if the character manages to acquire all +5 AC gear, and with a super duper +12 Divine Shield running, that's a max AC in the area of like 63, right? Pardon my ignorance here, but is that a lot? I see other monk builds discussed around here getting up to well over 70. And this build isn't running with Epic Dodge or any damage reduction to speak of. Wouldn't I just get pummeled to death in every significant fight? I definitely approve of not having to take finesse / 2-weapon / improved 2-weapon / ambidexterity, and opening those four feats for other stuff. Four feats is a whole darn lot. But jeez, that -4 AC. I just can't get my brain around that.
63 AC is more than enough. The monks with approx. 70 AC are what I call turtle builds, which can do alright in duels and do most of the server...but take forever to get anything done and fall flat when a bard curse songs and taunts them. :/
Just for the sake of completeness of the thread, here's the build with that last Fighter-level tweak included. Thanks all for your help in refining this! Looking forward to playing her.
Race: plain old human Stats: S14 / D14 / C8 / I14 / W14 / Ch14 Increase Strength at all level-ups, to end at base 22
This is the spread of a build I wanted to make actually! Good on you, though I don't think I used as much fighter as you did, and I haven't used your feat spread, monk/blackguard is just a fun build! I might have even used rogue levels instead of fighter levels, who knows.
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
Vastly so, I might consider going monk/bg/sd in some variant for the extra defensive power that and HiPS offers, though I didn't think of it until looking at it in this thread again just now
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
Vastly so, I might consider going monk/bg/sd in some variant for the extra defensive power that and HiPS offers, though I didn't think of it until looking at it in this thread again just now
Id agree with the above, rolled a few variants of monk/bg .and sd complements it pretty well
11 monk /6 shadowdancer / 13 blackguard is a pretty nice epic dodger with pre reqs already filled in thanks to 6 sd and minimum 9 monk. 13 bg does net you a bonus feat considering the thin spread.
_________________ "The Skin is your costume, The Stage is The Enviroment!"
I'd be tempted to make a Monk9/SD5/BG16 to squeeze in the epic summon. There's nothing like a sturdy companion to complement a sneak!
_________________ Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person I know you heard this and probably in fear -Kendrick Lamar, good kid
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