AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I opened that thread in the Concept Subforum first, but I suppose it fits here as well. Basically, what I'm after here is opinions on both IC and OOC matters. No matter what, the build is gonna suck in pvm and pvp and be weaker than what Saya already was, so I guess I am more interested in the actual RP side of it. What do you think fits the most?(feel free to ask questions if need be)

Here's a copy paste of what I posted there:

I am contemplating the idea of perhaps coming back, but…

About Saya:

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My character has always been driven by a motive to learn and her curiosity. She comes from a pretty sheltered situation, and was / is pretty clueless about quite a lot of things. Saya wishes to learn about her fey heritage (she is feytouched) and ultimately she wishes to ressemble her fey ancestors (grigs and half-fey) namely (but not limited to) by growing wings of her own. Progress has been made towards that in the past.

Current Classes:

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Saya’s current classes include rogue, ranger, and monk (10 / 10 / 9) and she was dex based. All three classes are/were justified with how she was or how she is. However, with Saya’s goal in mind, monk could be seen as adverse to what she wishes to become (and the staff thought so), even though monk was more seen as “martial artist” than “monk”.

I could see how the staff considered monk to be a hindrance, but I did not see a way I could make the class changes ICly justifiable. With me having left the server for at least 2 years, however, I see an opportunity for such possibility – if I am still welcome here, that is.

Problem:

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I am currently thinking of changing her classes to include bard levels into the mix. However, there are several ways this can be done, and I’d like to have an opinion on the options – from players and especially from DMs for one of the options. I may make an official request afterward.

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Option 1 --> 13 Rogue, X ranger, X bard, //// or //// Rogue X, bard X

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Rogue passing from 10 to 13 would strictly be to keep epic dodge. It feels to me like an important feat, both ICly and OOCly.

Option 2 --> Bard 29 (?)

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I find it pretty difficult to see Saya not having epic dodge, so this option is a bit iffy to me. This is a pretty drastic change to what she had too, or how she is, but it would make Saya more “playable”. Does that ooc playability really warrant or justify that classing though? I don’t think so… but that’s an option so I might as well list it and see what others think… (unless she became pacifist and stopped fighting and focused 100% on entertaining herself and others, that is)

Option 3 --> 13 rogue, X bard, X dragon disciple //// OR //// X bard, X dragon disciple

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This is the problematic option, the one I need DMs’ opinion on the most (and somehow the one I like the most too). Saya has went through changes (physically and mentally).

Surely you understand that dragon disciple here is –not- taken to represent that Saya has dragon ancestry (that is not the case), but rather to serve as a mechanical representation of what she has been through. I simply draw parallel to what Saya has been on the path of doing, and what the dragon disciple class does (for dragons).

- Her skin color changed (level 1 dragon discipline grow scales).

- Her personality was constantly changing (dragon disciples also change psychologically as they progress down their path).

- Saya has grown crooked grig legs (I see that akin to the breathe weapon dragon disciple get, or perhaps even the free wings they get at lvl 9).

However, this option obviously requires DMs to ponder on, because;

* Saya is not dragon, so I would need to request lots of things to be removed or not usable (including but not limited to STR gains and the ability to use breathe weapon, etc.)

* Allowing that class confirms that Saya has indeed been successful in some way and shape on her quest (that, however, should be a given considering that changes did occur before and Saya is currently not normal).

Option 4 --> ???

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Have a different idea?

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On potential accusation of power gaming:

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I don’t care about how strong or weak Saya would be. I did not build her to be strong (though I tried to make her as strong as can be with the limitations I imposed on her).

- Saya has spring attack because that’s ICly how Saya attacks (she bounces and dodges and strike randomly with little accuracy, though aiming for where it hurts (sneak)). That’s 2 debatably garbage feats just for RP (mobility and spring attack)

- None of these options would make her stronger than what she is now or what she was before. Even in the case of dragon disciple, she would not be receiving more AC than she has at the moment with her monk bonuses. Her saves will all go down from losing monk, no matter what. She would not use breathe weapon (for obvious IC reasons), and I would be requesting for the stats that make no sense to be removed from her (str comes to mind).

Disheartening to see no one is replying, as I'd love to have you back on the server. I'll cook something up for you when I wake up tomorrow, in the meantime I have some questions:

First of all I don't think you'll get much out of requesting dd representing something else, though I might be mistaken. Second, how much do you intend to dip into bard? It's better the more levels you put into it unless you're using it for skilldump. Are you going unarmed? If not then you could probably drop monk alltogether.

Shadowfiend wrote:

First of all I don't think you'll get much out of requesting dd representing something else, though I might be mistaken.

Second, how much do you intend to dip into bard? It's better the more levels you put into it unless you're using it for skilldump.

Third, Are you going unarmed? If not then you could probably drop monk alltogether.

1 ) Yeah, it would be the best solution but I also do not expect it will be too hot with the staff. That's the main reason I posted this too, wanted to get input on those (from players -and- staff). Even if there's not a single powergaming motive behind taking dragon disciple in my case, -and- that it fits 100% as a representation for what Saya's doing, I doubt it'll be welcomed (might be wrong though, hence the thread!).

2 ) Bard won't be for skill dumping in any of the solutions obviously since all my options either involve loads of bard or they have rogue already. Bard is for fey stuff. Saya has been on a path to become more fey-like, and the bard levels would be more in tune than what she has right now (monk / ranger / rogue)

3 ) Monk would be dropped all-together, yes, and she's gonna end up sucking in pvm and pvp no matter what due to that. For example, Saya was a kama wielder and it's been a part of her fighting style since the beginning. Even though it'll make her even weaker, I'll still keep kamas as her weapon no matter what her build would end up being.. that means, not being monk anymore, I'll have to waste a feat on exotic weapons just to keep kamas wieldable..

I want to make it clear, make no mistake, if any of those were to pass, Saya would -suck- when it comes to fighting. I'd keep spring attack and mobility (useless feats to her) for RP-sake, as well as exotic weapons because of kamas, all-the-while losing saves, movespeed, AC bonus as well as having something like 7 less attacks per round. The only build out of the ones I suggested that would make her useful in a party would be the all-out bard, but out of those options I believe it is the one that fits Saya the least.

If I'm coming back, I'm doing so with only RP in mind, pretty much.

Hardly going to call you a powerbuilder with that strange combination of classes!

Note, I don't think you get any particular benefits for going bard. I personally think you should consider maybe Shadow Dancer instead, and get HiPS. That way you'd become a HiPSing epic dodger with decent sneak attacks, it could turn useful. Though you should ask a SD player first, I guess you could make your own interpretation of Shadow Dancing where it is more of a martial art, or treated as such in the FR East. In other words, your character could be using the Eastern spin on Shadow Dancing.

I am assuming you already know the requirements for epic dodge, if not go on nwn.wikia.com and search it up. My suggestion for you would be the current build:

9 lvls of ranger at the start

13 lvls of rogue, pick up defensive roll and improved evasion at lvl 10 and 13 as the rogue bonus feats

Pick 1 more lvl of ranger during epic lvls, you can get a bonus epic feat that way, my suggestion is epic weapon focus.

Rest of the lvls go bard. I know there's some lvl restrictions in place for bard song bonuses, so stacking up on skill points for performance might not be necessary / useful.

For feats, go exotic weapons first, then go for the required feats for epic dodge. Once you have the required feats, go weapon focus and improved crit, eventually kd if you have enough feats left.

Skillpoints: focus on tumble. I am not sure if Bard has discipline as a class feat, if not then discipline drop at the 10th ranger lvl during epic lvls.

Last edited by Mushidoz on Thu, Dec 29 2016, 17:30 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Shadowfiend wrote:

Hardly going to call you a powerbuilder with that strange combination of classes!

Note, I don't think you get any particular benefits for going bard. I personally think you should consider maybe Shadow Dancer instead, and get HiPS. That way you'd become a HiPSing epic dodger with decent sneak attacks, it could turn useful. Though you should ask a SD player first, I guess you could make your own interpretation of Shadow Dancing where it is more of a martial art, or treated as such in the FR East. In other words, your character could be using the Eastern spin on Shadow Dancing.

I am assuming you already know the requirements for epic dodge, if not go on nwn.wikia.com and search it up. My suggestion for you would be the current build:

9 lvls of ranger at the start

13 lvls of rogue, pick up defensive roll and improved evasion at lvl 10 and 13 as the rogue bonus feats

Pick 1 more lvl of ranger during epic lvls, you can get a bonus epic feat that way, my suggestion is epic weapon focus.

Rest of the lvls go bard. I know there's some lvl restrictions in place for bard song bonuses, so stacking up on skill points for performance might not be necessary / useful.

For feats, go exotic weapons first, then go for the required feats for epic dodge. Once you have the required feats, go weapon focus and improved crit, eventually kd if you have enough feats left.

Skillpoints: focus on tumble. I am not sure if Bard has discipline as a class feat, if not then discipline drop at the 10th ranger lvl during epic lvls.

Well this thread isn't so much about making Saya's build powerful (there are 10000000 ways of making it stronger than the 3 sets of options I suggested here

), and more so about getting to know what people think fits the character the most as a representation of the "fey disciple" RP aspect of hers. In the case of the third option, I also want to test the water and know what players and DMs think of using Dragon Disciple on Saya without having anything to do with dragons (aka, turn Dragon Disciple into something else entirely).

On Shadowdancer: When I first made Saya she had shadowdancer and I concluded that it was a mistake on my part. Shadowdancer is more of a way of life than an actual class, and that way of life does not fit Saya -at all-. That's why at some point in Saya's history I had to request a rebuild to change the shadowdancer class into rogue (which does fit her).

On Bard: I am not getting bard levels because I think it'll ooc benefit Saya (it won't, ever), but rather because if Saya is to become more fey (her actual goal), bard is the one class that is the most natural for that. It is kinda mandatory.

I assume from your reply that option 1 (13 rogue / 10 ranger / 6 bard) or 4 would be your answer then. Your option 4 would not work (because of shadowdancer) though.

I don't think taking Dragon Disciple levels without being dragon blooded is appropriate... but, that's an opinion.. DM's would decide that for you.

I see what you want with dragon disciple, but I don't think it is very likely at the moment. Prestige classes has certainly been used to emulate other prestige classes many times before, but the problem is that you don't want a plain emulation, you want a custom class with similarities to dragon disciple. This takes a lot of scripting, and I don't think the developers offer scripted things anymore.

I also don't understand why bard is mandatory, or why you feel it is the class that describes being a fey best. Bards are about telling stories, singing songs and generally performing, but while there is fey that do this, there is many types of fey that don't perform. Most fey like characters are sorcerers or wizards.

Shadowfiend wrote:

1) I see what you want with dragon disciple, but I don't think it is very likely at the moment. Prestige classes has certainly been used to emulate other prestige classes many times before, but the problem is that you don't want a plain emulation, you want a custom class with similarities to dragon disciple. This takes a lot of scripting, and I don't think the developers offer scripted things anymore.

2 ) I also don't understand why bard is mandatory, or why you feel it is the class that describes being a fey best. Bards are about telling stories, singing songs and generally performing, but while there is fey that do this, there is many types of fey that don't perform. Most fey like characters are sorcerers or wizards.

1 ) I don't really want a custum class though, considering I'd be requesting to remove almost everything the dragon class brings and had no intention of asking for substitution if I decide to come back and go that route. Say I gained 10 strength off dragon disciple, I'd request an item with a -10 str penalty on it (exactly so that I don't get benefits that don't fit -and- that I don't cause the staff to have to script anything). From a technical point of view, if this option were chosen and submitted and then accepted by the staff, that'd pretty much be a build suicide as I would gain nothing from it, other than having a "token class" that represents what Saya's been through.

2 ) I was accused of not having classes that fit the fey RP enough in the past, and monk especially was a problem. It was hard to just drop monk when I was playing because I felt there were no logical way this would just go away one day without anything happening. With me being gone for that long, I can justify and write up a situation / rp that can cover that "loss" or change. She's also much more on the fighting side than a sorcerer class would be.

Saya is of grig heritage, they cast minor enchantments / illusions and some of them also play the fiddle. When I left, Saya was attempting to learn how to play the fiddle, so I find it a logical continuation that she'd be decent at it now. Also, anyone who roleplayed with Saya back then or remember her would probably remember that she was organizing quite a bit of "artistic" events back in the day. She's hosted games / quizes, improvisations, a play, she's wrote a book, she draws and organized other sorts of events including a riddle treasure hunt.

In that sense, to replace monk, I think bard is a very mandatory and logical class to her (it also happens to be feytouched's favored class).

Also, thanks to all who replied and will reply!

This is just my own opinion, but I believe it will be very unlikely you will be allowed to use DD to emulate something else. Even less so have stats removed or edited.

Hanamori Saya (Copied)

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