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sera
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 23 2017, 15:46 PM 

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I have some options with the blackguard I'm building.

I'm considering the standard 12 ftr/16 BG/2 rogue build.

I hadn't thought about summons much, but it seems like the Epic Fiendish Servant got a boost and it should be worthwhile. Opinions on the upgraded versus non upgraded summons for BGs?

Also... I will only achieve 36 STR maxed out... but 30 charisma. That's by taking 2 epic save feats (probably fort and will) and assuming I go for the EFS summon. That means a 46 AB with +5 weapon (before aid, bless, etc).

Does all this sound like a good idea?

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 23 2017, 16:08 PM 

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it's an ok summon, all three alignments are now all-right, so if it's the flavor you want of a little infernal friend, go for it.

otherwise, if you want mechanics, you're better off stopping at 7 or 8 BG, enough to max out dodge ac with divine shield and cap your saves bonus.

wisdom is absolutely not worth it though, in any case.

Gribbo knows BG builds way better, I'll wait for them and not post specifics. I will say though that BG/WM with divine might/shield is an absolute slayer of a build.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 23 2017, 16:11 PM 

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this is not optimal (it's better with a non exotic) but this is a hella big numbers build if you want an example;

Quote:
Class Race Fighter(16), Weapon Master(5), Blackguard(7), Drow

Abilies STR: 18 (26)
DEX: 13
CON: 10
WIS: 8
INT: 13
CHA: 14

28 Drow: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)
F 01: Fighter(1): Weapon Proficiency Exotic, Dodge
F 02: Fighter(2): Expertise
F 03: Fighter(3): Weapon Focus: Scythe
F 04: Fighter(4): STR+1, Mobility, (STR=19)
F 05: Fighter(5)
F 06: Fighter(6): Power Attack, Cleave
F 07: Fighter(7)
F 08: Fighter(8): STR+1, Spring Attack, Get 5 Hide Here, (STR=20)
BG 09: Blackguard(1): Whirlwind Attack, Get 4 Intimidate Here
BG 10: Blackguard(2): {Smite Good}
WM 11: Weapon Master(1): Weapon of Choice: Scythe
BG 12: Blackguard(3): STR+1, Divine Might, (STR=21)
F 13: Fighter(9)
F 14: Fighter(10): Knockdown
BG 15: Blackguard(4): Divine Shield
F 16: Fighter(11): STR+1, (STR=22)
F 17: Fighter(12): Blind Fight
BG 18: Blackguard(5): Extra Turning
F 19: Fighter(13)
F 20: Fighter(14): STR+1, Weapon Specialization: Scythe, (STR=23)
WM 21: Weapon Master(2): Epic Weapon Focus: Scythe
WM 22: Weapon Master(3)
WM 23: Weapon Master(4)
WM 24: Weapon Master(5): STR+1, Armor Skin, (STR=24)
BG 25: Blackguard(6)
F 26: Fighter(15)
BG 27: Blackguard(7): Great Strength I, (STR=25)
F 28: Fighter(16): STR+1, Epic Weapon Specialization: Scythe, (STR=26)

Statistic Hitpoints: 280
Skillpoints: 93
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 19/10/14
Saving Throw bonuses: Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 24
AB (max, naked): 36 (melee), 25 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 16/27
Spell Casting:
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills Discipline 30(38), Heal 19(18), Hide 5(6), Intimidate 4(6), Tumble 15(16)


divine shield and high cha really helps with the whole losing 3 ac from tumble.

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sera
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 23 2017, 16:18 PM 

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Thanks, but... sticking with ftr/bg/rog, not looking to do a rebuild at this point.

When you say alright.... would I be better off limiting BG and taking more fighter for feats?

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 23 2017, 16:28 PM 

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i dont know what your build is but yeah, I would.

the fiend is good but it's still just a summon, and those fighter feats are just better.

that said if you didn't plan it out, its hard to say whats better for you right now, I can't see what you are to guide you forward.

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sera
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 23 2017, 16:40 PM 

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7 fighter
8 BG
19 STR
18 cha

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 23 2017, 18:17 PM 

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The epic summon is good and fun to use. They're all great now.

Epic fort and will are not necessary on a BG build - your saves will be very high without it.

Wisdom would be worth it and the spells are pretty good now - but you will lose them at any CL dispel, the first one that hits. That can be pretty soulcrushing - both metaphorcially and literally as you immediately lose 5 AC and 50% concealment, and 2 to all your physical stats. But if you can keep them running, you can max your STR as easy as Paladins max their CHA, with other physical boosts to boot that stack with pots.

46 AB is respectable, and the only people who will tell you otherwise are running the 48 STR Earth Genasi RDd builds or the hypermonster 19 WM builds, and AB is like, their thing.

30 cha is more than most people go - the bogstandard end is 26, but hey if you can swing 30 that means more saves, and you get better overlap from your might and shield. You're not going for Dev so if you can swing the points it works.

The fighter feats are only better than the Epic Fiend if they help you achieve a a specific goal. You're not getting Dev or Epic dodge, so the feats in this case are likely not better than epic fiend. If you're already taking epic fort and will, then you definitely do not need more fighter feats - but you should make sure you'r egetting the essentials, like armor skin, EWF, EWS, and epic prowess.

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sera
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 23 2017, 18:29 PM 

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TormakSaber wrote:
The epic summon is good and fun to use. They're all great now.

Epic fort and will are not necessary on a BG build - your saves will be very high without it.

Wisdom would be worth it and the spells are pretty good now - but you will lose them at any CL dispel, the first one that hits. That can be pretty soulcrushing - both metaphorcially and literally as you immediately lose 5 AC and 50% concealment, and 2 to all your physical stats. But if you can keep them running, you can max your STR as easy as Paladins max their CHA, with other physical boosts to boot that stack with pots.

46 AB is respectable, and the only people who will tell you otherwise are running the 48 STR Earth Genasi RDd builds or the hypermonster 19 WM builds, and AB is like, their thing.

30 cha is more than most people go - the bogstandard end is 26, but hey if you can swing 30 that means more saves, and you get better overlap from your might and shield. You're not going for Dev so if you can swing the points it works.

The fighter feats are only better than the Epic Fiend if they help you achieve a a specific goal. You're not getting Dev or Epic dodge, so the feats in this case are likely not better than epic fiend. If you're already taking epic fort and will, then you definitely do not need more fighter feats - but you should make sure you'r egetting the essentials, like armor skin, EWF, EWS, and epic prowess.


Wow, thank you Tormak. Very informative.

As for epic feats... I get 6 (forgot it's a +1 subrace), so was planning on:
EWF
EWS
Armor Skin
Epic Summon
+1 GR STR (to balance to an even number)
And that leaves one more... probably prowess, which would bring me to 47 AB.

After checking, I can't take the epic saves anyway, unless I give up prowess for a save, which you said I likely don't need.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 23 2017, 19:47 PM 

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Pretty standard feat layout. More fighter feats don't benefit you here unless you'll have Dev Crit coming down the pipe - and you won't here.

you'll have good STR, so gear will take care of any discipline needs. Your saves will be very good, so the saves feats aren't strictly necessary, and I'd rate the +1 AB over it.

You can only get the epic fiend as an epic BG - I think it'd be a shame to invest so much in the class and not get the big payoff.

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sera
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 23 2017, 19:50 PM 

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TormakSaber wrote:
Pretty standard feat layout. More fighter feats don't benefit you here unless you'll have Dev Crit coming down the pipe - and you won't here.

you'll have good STR, so gear will take care of any discipline needs. Your saves will be very good, so the saves feats aren't strictly necessary, and I'd rate the +1 AB over it.

You can only get the epic fiend as an epic BG - I think it'd be a shame to invest so much in the class and not get the big payoff.


Cool, thanks. Gonna go for it. Using a summons is kinda a new experience for me, but.. it could be fun.

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MisterLich
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 23 2017, 19:54 PM 

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I can personally vouch for the Amnizu, thing is rad as fuck. Gerald used to mess with me with it in our silly duels (which we still hold lol, to test stuff out.)

It has good SR, big AB, and casts one of the Bigby's spells (I'll let you figure out which.) It's definitely worth it and will be a welcome addition to your fights, I'm sure.

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sera
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 23 2017, 19:58 PM 

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:D

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 25 2017, 11:01 AM 

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Just to dispel some confusion: The amnizu is the best epic summon on amia save for black blade of disaster (which I still insist is to strong). I have watched the Amnizu tare the winterwight a new asshole and I've seen it crit for 130 with no much more than bulls and flame weapon. It can get 50ish ac with respectable dr for dungeon tanking and great ab with a +5 weapon, blackstaff, and bigby's interposing hand for a mean AB buff should you be running into a melee heavy opponent.

It is the best tank a sneak heavy melee class can ask for because it dishes and delivers quite well while you get to capitalize fully on the wonderful sneak attacks you get.

Best epic summon on amia and it is worth looking like a weird tiny fat man.

(Unless it got nerfed when I wasn't looking)

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 25 2017, 19:58 PM 

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pretty sure it got normalized when Mav re-did the other two summons.

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Gribbo
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 25 2017, 20:47 PM 



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The buffed NE summon is pretty interesting. He's a ranged caster who can provide a few buffs, aoe spells, and ranged dps


 
      
Guardian
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 25 2017, 21:14 PM 

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I'm posting in my nemesis "Let's build shit!" thread. WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH ME?!

Right - I think the obsession with rogue / bard tumble / emd dump "must haz" attitude is meh.

I'm not a big fan of melee builds, moreso of str. melee builds (I always prefer dex. over str.). Nontheless, out of funsies, when Holy_Avenger and Bertnard were still playing, I made a drow blackguard. Fighter/BG/KC, str./char. focused with epic fiend.

No rogue lvls, no bard lvls, no UMD and crossed tumble - and it was one of the best (if not THE best) str. meleers I had. Massive dmg, very decent AC and with proper gear, stuff you normally take from UMD you may find as well. Sure, with a bit more grind and a bit more vendor knowledge, but it's doable.

I'd personally gold-medal award everyone without rogue/bard/monk UMD/Tumble dump in an instant. Be creative, be original.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Fri, May 26 2017, 23:51 PM 

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It's easy to eschew tumble when you're dex, but it's also easy to make a build that doesn't need tumble if you always have consistent buddies to party with, since every party member is an unquantifiable amount of AC depending on how much the game metas your stats.

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 27 2017, 1:30 AM 

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Gribbo wrote:
The buffed NE summon is pretty interesting. He's a ranged caster who can provide a few buffs, aoe spells, and ranged dps


They all got up scaled to match the fat dwarf with little wings. Enjoy.

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 28 2017, 19:35 PM 

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Commie wrote:
pretty sure it got normalized when Mav re-did the other two summons.


I don't think he nerfed the good summon so much as buffed the other summons to acceptable parameters. Epic Fiend is the capstone ability of the blackgaurd and the only reason to take epic levels.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 28 2017, 19:43 PM 

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Not really. With the dispel changes you now get an incredibly difficult to dispel:

50% concealment
+2 to all physical stats which stacks with pots, spells, and BG bulls - the gear freedom this offers cannot be underestimated
+5 natural armor (this generally translates into another +5 all saves)
Decent Epic Bonus Feat selection at a 3/1 ratio, the best outside fighter (though in practice it's 1 feat, since 16 is Epic Fiend)

Along with more sneak attack on a class that's full BAB and so has a better ability to take advantage of it.

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 28 2017, 19:49 PM 

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Are most of those buffs still turns per level? Like I recall the stat buff and natural armor and concealment all being turns per level while some of the other buffs were only rounds per level. If you're going to gear around a feature and it turns out to be turns per level it only serves to endanger the user during anything longer than pvp then and there. And if you don't have time to prepare those buffs because they're super short duration turn-per-level buffs anyway they're only going to leave you unprepared.

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Gribbo
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 28 2017, 20:24 PM 



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bobofwestoregonusa wrote:
Are most of those buffs still turns per level? Like I recall the stat buff and natural armor and concealment all being turns per level while some of the other buffs were only rounds per level. If you're going to gear around a feature and it turns out to be turns per level it only serves to endanger the user during anything longer than pvp then and there. And if you don't have time to prepare those buffs because they're super short duration turn-per-level buffs anyway they're only going to leave you unprepared.


Demon flesh and the conceal got changed to two turns per level so they match your fiends rest cycle


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 28 2017, 22:06 PM 

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bobofwestoregonusa wrote:
Are most of those buffs still turns per level? Like I recall the stat buff and natural armor and concealment all being turns per level while some of the other buffs were only rounds per level. If you're going to gear around a feature and it turns out to be turns per level it only serves to endanger the user during anything longer than pvp then and there. And if you don't have time to prepare those buffs because they're super short duration turn-per-level buffs anyway they're only going to leave you unprepared.


Uh, turn per level isn't short... it's 8 hours with 16 CL... that's an entire rest cycle.

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