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InquisitorBiologos
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 08 2017, 18:04 PM 

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So I've started a Dwarf today and had originally thought to have him be fighter/weapon master/defender but then was reminded that I would loose out on tumble and UMD dump and so I'm not looking at fighter/weapon master/rogue. So here is what I have and I'm seeking advice on it.

I want him to be sturdy and strong as befits a Dwarven warrior, expert with his greataxe and initially I had a thought to supplant lack of shield with DR from defender but it was suggested that tumble AC will be more worth in this regard.

Shield Dwarf
Str 18
Dex 13
Con 13
Wis 8
Int 14
Cha 6


Feat order so far (level 6 as of writing)

F1 Weapon Focus Greataxe
1 F1 Expertise
2 F2 Dodge
3 F3 Mobility
4 F4 Weapon Specialisation Greataxe
6 F6 Spring Attack
6 F6 Whirlwind Attack


Intended feats going forward

7 WM1 Weapon of Choice Greataxe
9 WM3 Improved Critical Greataxe
12 WM6 Blindfight


Desired but not absolute feats

Disarm (to take advantage of greatweapon size benefit)
Improved Disarm
Overwhelming Critical
Devastating Critical (possibly even though I know its nerfed here)


Skill dump at 27
Tumble 30
UMD tbc...


Thank you in advance for your consideration.


 
      
Raua
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 08 2017, 18:29 PM 

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You'll definately want dev crit, It's not an OHKO on a failed save anymore, but it's still totally worth it.

Your feats look good at where they are currently, going forward: I would suggest this:

Final Class Spread: 12 Fighter, 16 Weapon Master, 2 Rogue

15 Improved Expertise (For Extra AC Bulk, and as a WM, you can afford the hit to AB)
18 Cleave (Prereq for Devcrit) <- This might be out of order, but just make sure you get them all
21 Epic Weapon Focus
24 GR Strength 1 (For an even end stat)
27 Dev Crit
30 Bonus (I'd recommend either an epic skill focus or Save-boosting feat)

Fighter Bonus: 8 Power Attack (Prereq for Devcrit)
Fighter Bonus: 10 Great Cleave (Prereq for Devcrit)
Fighter Bonus: 12: Epic Weapon Specialization
WM Bonus: 13 Overwhelming Crit
WM Bonus: 16 Armor Skin (Moar AC)

EDIT: Because I maaaay have misread the OP: (ORRR, if you don't want rogue, or EWS, you could always go 10 Fighter/19 WM / 1 Bard
Bard for your Tumble/UMD dump, Can also do spellcraft with this at the cost of having natural Evasion, but it's up to what you want/ The extra WM bonus feat would be up to your choosing as well.)

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InquisitorBiologos
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 08 2017, 19:23 PM 

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Raua wrote:
EDIT: Because I maaaay have misread the OP: (ORRR, if you don't want rogue, or EWS, you could always go 10 Fighter/19 WM / 1 Bard
Bard for your Tumble/UMD dump, Can also do spellcraft with this at the cost of having natural Evasion, but it's up to what you want/ The extra WM bonus feat would be up to your choosing as well.)


LN Dwarf here so it can't be bard, but I don't have anything against taking rogue levels it was just that I had originally wanted Defender levels primarily for the class DR but it was pointed out to me by a party mate that DR 9 is far less worth overall than 6AC and UMD.
On balance I agreed especially as I would be stacking STR and not CON (so no epic DR) and so was thinking to take fighter/weapon master/rogue in some combination but was unsure exactly what spread and what additional feats etc but you have covered that in you reply so thank you for that :)


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 08 2017, 19:42 PM 



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Personally (and that puts me in a weird camp on the server) I've been indoctrinated to the point where DevCrit is a pure PvE thing, and PvE tends to be manageable without it, to not take DevCrit. DevCrit makes PvE easier, but does just about nothing in PvP.

I know, I'm preaching a weird position here, but I've always been taught to build for PvP, because anything can do PvE, and in PvP, everyone will have the fort to resist you. It's kind of funny, because that is basically the thinking in Rock, Paper, Scissors that the opponent will try to use mindgames, so you will have to use the 'objectively wrong' stance. If nobody geared for 38+ fort, DevCrit would be awesome. But now, I personally think a WM, especially 19 WM, would rather want to get 2 more strength, gaining him an extra AB. Crits are almost the same, sans the one in a million chance to DevCrit, and you'll usually (unless he wins the one in a million chance) outduel another DevCritter, simply because you have a 5% higher chance to hit.

Then again, if you crit a lot (which you will, usually) you'll land DevCrit a lot in PvE and DM events, so it just depends what you want to build for IMO...


 
      
InquisitorBiologos
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 08 2017, 19:48 PM 

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Yeah PVP was why I was thinking to take Disarm feat plus it gets a phat bonus from greatweapon size to boot.

So we are basically saying that at some point in the past folks with low Fort whined about dev crit and so it was nerfed and now everyone and their dog builds to have the Fort anyway?

If that's the case then yeah it does sound like more of a PVE tool but I expect to be PVEing more than PVPing anyway, and for that matter I expect that PVP here is won by trick custom PVP builds anway and a great weapon Dwarf isn't going to compete with that in a mechanical sense I think.

Hmm the doubt is in my mind which route to take.


 
      
Raua
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 08 2017, 19:53 PM 

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Location: The Land of >9000 Lakes (GMT -6)

Ultimately, it's up to you, and what you want to get out of it.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 08 2017, 21:18 PM 



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Yeah, Disarm is pretty much a given, since you're neutral against a medium weapon, and get an attack bonus while trying to disarm small and tiny weapons.

Well, old DevCrit was really OP. On-hit death is just random. And on a dual-kukri build... You are going to die. It's luck when, but you are.

But in the end, most people have the fort to not get DevCritted, but in the end, it isn't bad. It's just something I personally (and a few others) dislike, because it does relatively little in PvP. Of course, if you hit it, they're dead, usually, because it still is strong, I just personally subscribe to more standard damage over luck.

But yeah, your choice, it's really good in PvE, can be decent in DM events (depends how strong the monsters are) and can decide a PvP win.


 
      
lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 08 2017, 21:34 PM 



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If your going 12fighter/16WM/2Rogue go 10Fighter/10WM to get the most out of your saves pre-epic. 11th Fighter level gives you nothing pre-epic.


 
      
InquisitorBiologos
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:39 AM 

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Ok so far this is my current plan with all due respect and thanks to those who have contributed.

For the sake of only taking a single Rogue skill dump level at 28 I can get Improved Disarm and Devastating Critical Greataxe whilst getting the same saves by taking 12 Fighter 8 Weapon Master pre-epic.
The build won't have tremendous Dexterity anyway so I feel the loss of Evasion for the PVE power of Devcrit and the PVP and PVE utility of Disarm is more than worth it.

Thoughts?

Shield Dwarf
Str 18 (26 by level 30)
Dex 13
Con 13
Wis 8
Int 14
Cha 6


Current Feats

1 F1 Weapon Focus Greataxe
1 F1 Expertise
2 F2 Dodge
3 F3 Mobility
4 F4 Weapon Specialisation Greataxe
6 F6 Spring Attack
6 F6 Whirlwind Attack
7 WM1 Weapon of Choice Greataxe
9 WM3 Improved Critical Greataxe


Intended Feats
12 WM6 Blindfight
15 F8 Disarm, Improved Disarm
17 F10 Power Attack
18 F11 Cleave
19 F12 Greater Cleave
21 WM9 Overwhelming Critical
24 WM12 Epic Weapon Focus Greataxe
25 WM13 Armour Skin
27 F13 Epic Weapon Specialisation Greataxe
29 RO1 Skill dumps
30 WM16 Devastating Critical Greataxe, Great Strength I, Disc 33, Heal 2, Spot 33, Tumble 30, UMD 32


Last edited by InquisitorBiologos on Mon, Oct 09 2017, 15:40 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
Raua
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 09 2017, 10:50 AM 

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Location: The Land of >9000 Lakes (GMT -6)

Lack of evasion makes me weep. Oh well. What you've got listed up there is fine, though I'd drop your UMD either down to 27, or up to 32, because your -2 CHA morifier will impact that, and UMD works in multiples of 5

Oh, and take Armorskin at level 13 Weapon master, I didn't see you list that level's feat anywhere! :P

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 09 2017, 13:46 PM 

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As Raua said, no evasion is... bad in a word. 12 fighter, 16 WM, 2 rogue is the "classic" wm.

Also, as was stated, Devcrit is unnecessary. In all my characters here, I've never used it once and never missed it either. In PVP, my characters did very well, and in PVE, ehh, it's just not needed at all.


 
      
freaxxshow1338
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 09 2017, 14:51 PM 

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Keep in mind you can get Evasion on Items afaik.

But they are apparently -really- rare...

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Raua
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 09 2017, 14:54 PM 

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Location: The Land of >9000 Lakes (GMT -6)

You can, the only 2 items I know of being Kumakawa (studded leather armor) and a Ring of Evasion. The armor is generally pretty terrible, and the ring is an epic drop.

That said, I generally prefer to build it in, rather than relying on gear. unless the build doesnt allow for it or it just doesnt fit the character concept.

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 09 2017, 14:58 PM 

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Evasion isn't the end of the world. It is nice but really if you have the HP you will be fine.

Most pure str fighters types dont really have the best reflex to save off of anyway. Improved Evasion is where it is at for strength characters, if they can somehow get it.

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InquisitorBiologos
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 21 2017, 17:44 PM 

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As a side bar for his skill how much UMD do I need for a melee champ with -2 CHA?

I had planned to just dump 32 in for effective 30 assuming that will be more than enough but is that actually massive overkill?
I could use a little more heal maybe just to make kits a little more efficient if I can scavenge some UMD, its not vital though so if there is worth in effective UMD 30 I'm happy to take it.



 
      
lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 21 2017, 18:19 PM 



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16 - 1 = 15
Aim for 15 so grab 16


 
      
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