I've been been trying to draw up what exactly my paladin's code should be and I'm hopping to get some nice suggestional rules or some help with this. I play a Pally/ Divine Champion of Lathander. Praise the sun~! So I would like to get some jolly cooperation with all this.
I've always LOVED this seance and it's by one of my favorite actors.
A knight is sworn to valour
His heart knows only virtue
His blade defends the helpless
His might upholds the weak
His word speaks only truth
His wrath undoes the wicked
I feel like I will expand on the traits as I am going to be trying to play him as a Dragon Rider and I can't help but feel this is appropriate.
I have some other conduct rules I feel apply to the characters self worth I may like to also expand uppon but aren't exactly apart of his paladin's code.
Strive always to aid, to foster new hope, new ideas, and new prosperity for all humankind and its allies. It is a sacred duty to foster new growth, nurture growing things, and work for rebirth and renewal. Perfect yourself, and be fertile in mind and in body. Wherever you go, plant seeds of hope, new ideas, and plans for a rosy future in the minds of all. Watch each sunrise. Consider the consequences of your actions so that your least effort may bring the greatest and best reward. Avoid negativity, for from death comes life, and there is always another morning to turn a setback into a success. Place more importance in activities that help others than in strict adherence to rules, rituals, and the dictates of your seniors.
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❤ Amia is Fun Again! ❤ #GreenisNotACreativeColour "It's easy to feel like a hero. It's a little harder to be one."
Joined: 08 Nov 2013 Location: Somewhere near the Atlantic (I hope)
First off, I genuinely hope this doesn't descend into, ironically, anarchy very quickly, but conversations about paladins rarely end well, since they embody the alignment debate.
Now that I've gotten the portents of doom out of the way, here's my personal view:
In older editions, it's very telling that only humans could become paladins. Even today, I guarantee most of the paladins you will see are humans (human-base aasimar very arguably qualify). That's an intentional choice because, fictionally and mythologically, our race has a major strength and a major weakness that make paladins interesting. They are infinite malleability and infinite fallibility. We choose what we want to excel at and we do it, whether that's being a paragon of virtue, an ultimate sadist, or something more in tune with modern times like the world's best skateboarder. The best example in fiction is Commander Shepard - you have all these other species in the galaxy that are experts in certain fields, but who ends up outdoing them all in those fields and accomplishing the task? A human. In fact, you could make the argument that Shepard is a science fiction representation of what a paladin looks like, for several reasons. This is easy to look at for the Paragons, but even Renegades have the same goals with the same basic fiber. In D&D terms I would view them as the different between, say, a traditional Cavalier (paragon) who rides into the dragon's lair and saves the princess, or the more gritty Gray Guard (renegade) who does the dirty jobs for the greater good.
And it's actually the Renegade Shepard that, in my view, makes for a better paladin. The reason why is that second trait, infinite fallibility. Let's get this out of the way now. I don't care whether you're a greeter at Walmart or a celestial-blooded crusader with divine light literally coming out your backside. Humans make mistakes. Humans screw up. A majority of the problems some people have with paladins as a concept is that they feel a paladin should be immune to failure, or bad judgment calls. Whereas the whole point is that they should be more vulnerable to those than anyone else. If you choose to be an exemplar, you will most likely be subject to a correspondingly more vast 'difficulty curve' when it comes to doing your appointed duty.
Everyone knows the practically groan-inducing cliche of 'if you fall down, you get back up to continue the struggle!' But not only is it true, that should be the paladin's motto. They aren't better at fighting evil or being good or lawful than anyone else. What matters is that, no matter how much they fail or how difficult the struggle is, they choose to continue being good, and lawful, and good at fighting evil regardless of setbacks or opposition, or even failure on their part. Are their failures more catastrophic than a farmer's? Absolutely. Which is why their attempts to correct their mistakes must be, and often are, equally massive.
Which is why the common conception of The Code as a doctrine that, if you fail to follow it to the letter once, gets you evicted is rather ludicrous. If that was the case, I guarantee you would have no paladins for more than, oh, three days? Like any other law, it's a guideline for conduct, and the fact that it's universal to all paladins means it also has to be able to represent the core of what they are.
That's an essay, basically. So I'll also provide the TL;DR version like Uncle Opustus taught me.
The Code is important, yes. But it also needs to be fairly general, and it isn't absolute in the sense that one screwup nets you a fall. Ideally, it's a symbiosis that provides something to tie to the Lawful alignment component and provide for the Good alignment component. Everyone agrees on certain core facets, and they should also appeal to different interpretations.
Act according to what your faith and your heart speak of as Honor - your god and your soul combined will not lead you astray
Act in accordance with the tenets of your faith when the code fails you, and with what you believe to be right when the path is clouded even further
When the innocent are threatened, it is in your nature to defend them, but it is not always your place to judge who is worthy of execution or rule
You are a guardian, not a tyrant - impose your will, your creed, and your beliefs upon NO ONE by force
Give unto each matter its due consideration - a hasty leap to action serves only the cause of evil
That's what I came up with on the spot, anyway, and it's what all of my paladins have followed to a tee, but it allowed them all to be very different characters. So many paladins break just that fourth rule, even unintentionally, that even my LAWFUL characters pretty much hate the institution on principle.
You'll notice that several of those have a 'act as you feel best' clause after you look to your deity for guidance. I'll start with the first one. You don't find paladins on the street like lucky pennies. They're either chosen by a god because they have within them the inherent ability to serve the cause or they choose to be such amazing and upstanding people that a divine being comes down from the heavens, points at them, and says "YES. That person RIGHT THERE. THAT is how it's done." Rarely in such a dramatic fashion, of course, but paladins aren't like ordinary clerics.
You don't get the code and alignment as a result of being empowered; you were ALREADY so Lawful and Good that your god decided to uplift you to the holiest of holies on the mortal plane. It doesn't seem like it if there are so many running around, but seriously, being a paladin is a massive deal.
But being lawful and good and a fantastic person, while of great import, are just part of the class. The other, major part is the deity. You'll note that a Paladin of Sune and a Paladin of Helm operate very differently, and that's intentional. Being a paladin determines that you essentially exist to make the world a better place. Who you serve determines how you go about that, and what your areas of focus are. As such, it's important that the will of your deity is always on your mind.
Keep and memorize that dogma, because it's what makes you a paladin instead of a LG fighter. Those divine abilities come with an implicit trust that you will do your duties in a way that befits your god and their other followers. A lot of people assume this means that paladins are more prone to falling than anyone else, but I argue the opposite is true. You're a major investment, chosen because the god in question felt you represented them even better than a full priest. If you take the wrong path for the right reasons, only the most vindictive bastards will fall you for it if it didn't cause the death of the universe. And, not surprisingly, the most vindictive bastards are all on the evil end of the alignment scale.
You're not some mook with heavy oversight, you're a partner with your deity in the monumental task of keeping the world save from evil. And it behooves both parties to judge the other with respect.
That's just the beginning of my thoughts on paladins, anyway. I'll sum it up again for quick reference.
First and foremost, it's your job to be a good person, not a hardass.
Your deity is very important to you, but you're also very important to your deity. Work together.
Don't be a hardass.
Morality is more subjective than people think, but you're an authority. You don't have a free pass to justify everything you do as goodly, but most of what you do is going to be by default.
No, seriously, don't be a hardass.
Now that's done, I want a parting word on that pdf. Part of it I agree with, the rest I vehemently do not. It's like the first half ignored the second. The preconceived notions of honor and chivalry are usually what break the hardass rule. That part should be integral to the character, not the code. The particular bit that's always burned me is the 'don't act dishonorably in combat' clause. Usually, I doubt your god will instantly fall you for thwarting a massive evil threat by backstabbing them.
When in doubt, remember the part I agree with the most: "Being a paladin does not mean being stupid."
That's all for now. The usually terms apply to this post, including but not limited to it being an opinion, and thus not absolute, and your right to take all of it or parts of it with a grain of salt. Also note that this piece on a Lawful class comes from a decidedly Chaotic individual, so relative freedom to act and a lack of utterly binding clauses are important to what I consider rounded setpieces like classes.
_________________ Contents subject to change without warning, reason, necessity, or logical imperative.
Overneath wrote some really, really good stuff here.
It was collaborative work. Iron and I discussed a bit back and forth about our interpretations of how those paladins might be in those faiths, based upon a little general critical thinking. Then I took the body of our talk, edited it, rearranged it, and peppered it liberally with actual examples and references from the Faiths & Pantheons sourcebook. Always wanted to do more of those, but Iron was really the best to work with on that front.
My approach was simple in spite of what it may seem from reading the entries. I co-wrote them operating under the following notion:
All paladins are lawful. All paladins are good. All paladins have some kind of oath they take or code they follow. All paladins have a relationship that is both personal and professional with their faith, the dogma of their faith, the church, the heirarchy, etc., and for some it can be easy and for others more complicated.
Everything beyond that is the spice of life and just suggestions for players to take and run with.
Last I checked there was no definite list anywhere, but it was essentially any deity that can accept LG worshippers on the one-step scale + C. Larethian. Don't quote me on that, though.
Joined: 20 Apr 2008 Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
Yossarin wrote:
My approach was simple in spite of what it may seem from reading the entries. I co-wrote them operating under the following notion:
All paladins are lawful. All paladins are good. All paladins have some kind of oath they take or code they follow. All paladins have a relationship that is both personal and professional with their faith, the dogma of their faith, the church, the heirarchy, etc., and for some it can be easy and for others more complicated.
Everything beyond that is the spice of life and just suggestions for players to take and run with.
That's probably better than anything I could have said in this topic. I had debated how to word that. The simplest and widest interpretation of lore allows for the most creativity and is usually more interesting than set-in-stone stuff, anyway.
As for help writing your Paladin's Code, PS, I would say look to your character. When coming up with my paladin's code, I found that what kept it interesting for me was this: a balance between self and dogma. If you make a code that the PC would never even question to break or was mechanically unable to break, then it's not much of an issue. It's just... there. Alternatively, if you make a code that is so rigid or prohibitive to your PC that they can't take two steps without the risk of breaking it, it tends to get in the way of the whole paladin-ing thing. A paladin generally doesn't serve his god by cloistering up, following a strict code, and nothing else. That's more like a nun or a hermit. They're there to further their deities plans, spirit, and religion in a Lawful and Good way; ideally, their Code is a guide to help them do that, not punish them.
So my first suggestion I guess would be to pepper your code with things that are somewhere in between those two spaces. Actions, duties, or rituals that don't outright inconvenience your paladin to death, but at the same time aren't things that are accomplished by doing nothing at all. To use mine as an example, she must attempt to sheathe her weapon when fighting an unarmed enemy, unless her life is at stake. The thought being that she trains in unarmed combat(monk) and so it's "overkill" and non-sporting to deny someone the chance to fight her on equal terms. Notice the clause "unless her life is at stake." She's not bound to sit there and get punched in the face to death with no recourse should she come against a clearly better hand-to-hand combatant who refuses to yield. Additionally, she does not count enemies with claws, teeth, and so on as "unarmed" because clearly those things are as dangerous as any dagger or sword; she's not going to bare-knuckle brawl a dragon. Even then it's a guide. If in the heat of battle, un-equiping and re-equiping is too dangerous because some enemies being armed and others unarmed, it's not the end of her world. She does her best, and then asks for forgiveness for her short-comings sometime after.
Beyond that, think about the social aspects of your paladin's code. Where did they learn or create it? Who taught them or influenced them while creating it? How might it differ from another paladin of the same deity, but from a different region? What are frankly some not-so-nice, non-kumbaya things that might exist in it, despite it being Lawful and Good? It's a mortal code, remember, it can have flaws. To use my own again, Zammikyra's code has the "duty to all good beings of Toril" much lower on the totem pole or responsibilities than most Tormtar have it I'd wager. She considers her position, duty, dharma as stewardship to humanity foremost after her god and her liege, Father Haulfest. She doesn't neglect the duty to other goodly beings, its simply that a human comes first on the list of things to save from a sinking ship, before elf/dwarf/etc, unless otherwise noted or required.
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You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it. Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
So I'm playing a Paladin of Hoar, and I'm having a very difficult time trying to decide what is okay and what isn't, since Hoar is a pretty atypical god for a paladin. I need to figure out what to do about undead/necromancers, evil/monstrous pcs, non-undead evil summons, evil Hoarites, and things like that.
I want my default position to be live and let live, until you've committed harm to another, then face justice. However, this rule doesn't necessarily condemn any of the above unless I witness or am told of a harmful act. Even animation undead (vs spirit, which is bad) doesn't seem problematic. Does this seem correct? Do I have to worry about falling because of a guy with a skeleton, when nobody was harmed in the process? I can't imagine Hoar caring. Somebody mentioned lichdom to me yesterday, and my only thought was do what you want, just don't bring others down with you.
With my paladins of Kelemvor and Siamorphe respectivly, I approached it the following way:
As a paladin, you are bound to at least two codes. The principles of paladinhood and the tennants of your faith. There can be other codes a paladin vows to uphold, such as those of a order or station within a state. The dilemma a paladin often faces is when there is conflict between these. As a paladin, you can also fall when you do something permitted by faith, but that is completely against the principes of paladinhood.
Deities like Hoar, Kelemvor, and Siamorphe can be more challenging for paladins at time, because within a church there might be evil elements that are sanctioned by the faith but not the code. A clear and concise list of do's and dont's for paladins of a certain faith does not really exist, except for the really big and obvious dont's.
So to your question specifically, the way I see it Hoar might not care if your character as a follower runs around with a guy who animated a skeleton. He might however care if one of his paladins does it. Given the circumstances of the the specific situation, if he turns a blind eye, send you a dream warning, outright falls your character or strikes your character down with a bolt of lightning really depends on how the DM interprets the situation.
As an example, I'd think traveling with someone who just for insane experiments animates the dead would garner a different consequence, as when you travel with a ghost of a wronged person seeking retribution you were asked to deliver. Those are the nuances were different faiths likely give their paladins a little more or less leeway. A paladin of Kelemvor might be required to put the wronged spirit to rest right away. If the kelemvorite travels with the ghost, he might fall right away, unlike the Hoarite.
The reverse however is true too. Your character might do something that is completely in order with his principles of paladinhood, but break the tenants of your faith. An abundantly merciful act, that goes against the teaching of just restribution of Hoar. Depending on the situation, your character might also have to deal with some consequences because of that.
Which still is all pretty vague, but I think that is just one of the basic difficult tests a paladin needs to use his faith and wisdom in trying to figure out.
Joined: 20 Apr 2008 Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
Pony said much of what I was going to say. There are certain things that remain the same between paladins because that's what the class and position is, despite the god it serves. For instance, a Paladin of Sune or Corellon still has to go about his deeds in a Lawful way, despite his god being Chaotic. He has to interact with the rest of the church in a Lawful way, despite some of clergy being Chaotic as well. I see this being similar to having a Paladin of Hoar, Helm, Jergal, Kelemvor, Mystra, or any sort of neutral power that also has both Paladins and evil in its clergy. A paladin may have to walk a fine line between not forsaking their god or their own oaths. For this reason, I imagined many paladins to be loners when not actively part of an Order. Better to go your own way and uphold your faith as you see fit, rather than work with clergy who might lead you astray or cause you to Fall one way or another.
As far as a Paladin of Hoar being more lax around undead, I could see it. Once you get out of Faerun proper, the cultural opinions and traditions on undead aren't as clear cut. The Mulhorandi for instance have sanctioned undead and tomb guardians I'm pretty sure are all cool and ordained by Horus-Re and Osiris, both LG deities. The Order of the Golden Lion, paladins of Torm, are actually allowed to use undead that are already in existence, though after they have served their purpose they must return them to rest. To that end, I don't think there is anything explicitly about paladinhood that says you cannot work with undead, rather most undead that a paladin will encounter will be evil, have been created by evil, or otherwise tick a checkmark on their god's list of "things to smite" (things that defy the natural cycle for Chauntea and Lathander, things escaping death for Kelemvor and Jergal, etc). I could even see it being a sin in for a Paladin of Hoar to destroy something like a Revenant before they had completed their task and some might actually be charged to help a vengeful spirit they come across so that it may find rest.
Lastly, and to a larger issue, asking "would X care about this" is always difficult with deities. Not necessarily because it requires DM interpretation which varies, but because gods themselves aren't monoliths. They may or may not have a single opinion on something. They're made up of different aspects, show different faces to different people, and consequently expect different things of different worshipers. The fact that gods like Helm can have both Paladins and Blackguards in his clergy means that, on some level, he endorses both outlooks to further his goals. This does not mean, however, that he wants his Paladins summoning devils or his Blackguards offering mercy; they're both there to do their jobs as they have been called to do so.
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You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it. Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
I played a pretty well known atypical paladin, and the way I understood it for her was that her personal code superseded the official codes in many moments. I think Hoar works very similarly. 'Lawful' is defined by which laws are the ones to be upheld, as laws can often conflict and that's where Paladins get F-ed. She simplified this by saying, "unless it directly says so, I can interpret A to mean B in this situation, C in that situation and D in the others." It is, in fact, what every paladin does without even realizing it (it's called subjectivity and Pony's characters suffered from it to a hilarious and ironic degree- especially that psycho Sharina! Hahah), but I think Hoarites and the atypical ones are more aware of the dogmatic conflict and accepting of it within themselves!
So I'm playing a Paladin of Hoar, and I'm having a very difficult time trying to decide what is okay and what isn't, since Hoar is a pretty atypical god for a paladin. I need to figure out what to do about undead/necromancers, evil/monstrous pcs, non-undead evil summons, evil Hoarites, and things like that.
I want my default position to be live and let live, until you've committed harm to another, then face justice. However, this rule doesn't necessarily condemn any of the above unless I witness or am told of a harmful act. Even animation undead (vs spirit, which is bad) doesn't seem problematic. Does this seem correct? Do I have to worry about falling because of a guy with a skeleton, when nobody was harmed in the process? I can't imagine Hoar caring. Somebody mentioned lichdom to me yesterday, and my only thought was do what you want, just don't bring others down with you.
IronAngel wrote:
Paladins of Hoar
Hoar is a dark, vengeful deity of retribution and poetic justice. Balancing between the influences of Tyr and Shar, and dealing with Beshaba to bestow bad luck upon the deserving, the Doombringer seems an ill-fit patron for paladins. Yet there are those who brave this narrow path and earn a fearsome reputation as uncompromising paragons of justice.
In Chessenta and the southern lands, Hoar is known as Assuran, the god of vengeance. Two temples, The Thunderous Hand of Vengeance in Akanax and the Amphitheater of the First Thunder in Mourktar, rival for leadership of the faith. Paladins from this region are uncommon, but are likely to swear fealty to either one of the temples and act as the priesthood's swordarm to mete out just punishment. In western and northern Faerûn, however, Hoar is considered to be more concerned in poetic justice and fitting punishment rather than vengeance. There, his worship is scattered and the only notable temple is the Hidden Hand of Fate in Archendale. Paladins from these regions are more common, and often act without the strict guidance of the clergy.
It is the Hoarites' duty to learn of injustice and repay it in full. Hoarite paladins often track down wanted villains, but refuse to collect the bounty unless it can be used as fitting compensation for the wronged party. Enacting justice is reward enough for the paladins. Feared and disliked as they are by many less-than-innocent people, they are often the only hope poor folks have of repaying those who've wronged them; whereas bounty-hunters demand gold and local authorities may not find evidence enough to press charges, the Hoarites will listen to the most wretched beggar, assess the truth of the account and decide the most fitting way to enact retribution.
Hoar instructs his followers to uphold the spirit of the law over that of the letter. After catching a criminal, a Tyrran paladin will take the captive for trial in the city where the crime was committed, if at all possible. A Hoarite, however, may suspect the captive will weasel his way free of any charges with his knowledge of local legislation. To make sure justice is done, he will simply administer whatever punishment is fitting on the spot. This has gained Hoarites the reputation of vigilantes, and the disapproval of many town watches and Tyrrans.
As instruments of poetic justice, paladins of Hoar are not without a sense of humour. Hoar teaches that revenge is at its sweetest with an edge of irony. While evil clerics of Hoar might think highly of the irony in feeding to the wolves someone who beat their dog, his paladins aim for punishments that teach a lesson but still compensate the crime committed. Violence will meet violence, but a paladin should avoid excessive violence whenever the foe's offence does not outright demand it. A greedy landowner who's kept his underlings in hunger would be better served with a task of sowing the fields, reaping the harvest and baking bread for his servants, rather than starving him to death; something a more malicious Hoarite might opt to do. On a similar note, retribution has two aspects: punishing injustice, for certain, but also rewarding good deeds. While far from charity workers, Hoarite paladins do their best to give suitable rewards to those they witness doing the just and right thing. If someone offers a room in their home for a travelling Hoarite to rest in, the paladin might later invite the family to spend a few nights in a fine inn in the nearby city, at his expense.
Paladins of Hoar are in a difficult position in their church, because some Hoarites are evil and even their neutral brethren may enact cruelties that would enrage many a goodly faith. Hoar's dogma speaks of an eye for an eye, and his paladins consider it a strict commandment that ensures fairness, whereas some others interpret the maximum severity of punishment more liberally. Especially in powerful temples, church hierarchy is established and paladins might end up subservient to evil clerics. That's one reason paladins are uncommon in southern lands where the rule of the church is stronger. Hoarite paladins in the Heartlands and the North are often loners who interact little with the rest of the clergy. A paladin of Hoar will not fight an evil priest of Hoar, because he knows they both apparently have the deity's favour, whether he likes it or not. The paladin may debate matters of moral and dogma and try to persuade the clergy to condemn excessive cruelty, or simply avoid or refuse to work with the evil clergymembers, though. However, it's not unknown for Hoarite paladins to thwart the plans of Hoarite assassins and other lay members when they go too far. Such incidents occasionally cause strife within the church and set the extremes of the clergy at odds with eachother. Fortunately, the neutral medium is by far the strongest group and has so far managed to maintain balance and relative unity.
Hoar's dogma tells to answer evil with evil, and that ”those who do not respond to attacks against their person or that which they hold dear only invite further attacks” Mercy is a luxury for those who don't take the fight against injustice seriously. On the other hand, it's important to a paladin that something good also results from the punishment. The path of a Hoarite paladin in narrow and paradoxical indeed: excessive cruelty results in a fall from goodness but showing undue mercy at the expense of rightful retribution is a breach of their code just as well. Likewise, working against the church they are sworn to serve is unacceptable, but neither may they actively partake in evil deeds. There are certain practices in the church of Hoar that would seem blasphemous to paladins of deities such as Lathander or Kelemvor: sometimes the victim of violence or betrayal begs with his last breath for a chance to take revenge. A Doombringer of Hoar may grant that wish and raise the victim as a revenant, an undead whose only purpose is to take vengeance upon those who wronged him. Once the task is done, the revenant crumbles and the spirit passes on to afterlife. Similarly, Hoarites may command undead to turn against their creator and crumble once he is destroyed. Paladins of Hoar understand the grim irony and justice in such actions, allowing these undead to complete their task.
There are no actual paladin orders dedicated to Hoar. However, the Fellowship of Poetic Justices is an order of bards, paladins and crusaders of both Tyr and Hoar who seek to spread tales of ironic justice and fight injustice in ways more efficent than violence.
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