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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 08 2017, 2:10 AM 



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Joined: 04 Jan 2015

Hi,
This is something I've been a bit curious about lately, since there's all the talk about making Amia great again, or whatever, and with the faction areas, it seems like a place to start to get some factions in. But then, there's one thing I've been a bit curious about. I've seen a few things about leadership, and was curious if people could explain a bit what they think about it.

So, first thing is, what makes a leader good? Of course, time investment is a huge part (the leader should be able to play), but what else? To think of an example I just read about. What made, for example, the Gentleman's Club leadership so great? I've heard this a few times, in what way were they good leaders?

A second thing, and it's one I've been curious for a longer while: ''Generating RP''. I've heard a few times, over the years, that factions should generate their own RP, rather than waiting for DMs. And I've always been a bit curious what is meant by this. I mean, of course, a part is deciding what can be done, and the planning of it. (I'd love some examples if anyone whould be willing to give any as well)
The thing is, when I think of ''generating RP'', I always envision one of two things. 1. Talking, planning, stuff like that, which, at some point, you'll run out of things to do. The second would be grinding levels and gold, and some sparse RP inbetween. And both seem to not contribute to RP too much.
The first is actually what I feel most budding factions have, plans to take over the world, to get established, to become relevant.

But, once a faction has become relevant, has gotten a base, how is this handled then? How do you provide anything interesting, with only NPCs and PCs on your hand?


Essentially, the question boils down to this: What would you expect from a good faction leader, and what suggestions would you have how they could be an interesting addition to the setting? (As opposed to just being the next group that gets blown up and replaced by the next, and the next, and the next)


 
      
Shadowfiend
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 08 2017, 14:05 PM 

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Quote:
So, first thing is, what makes a leader good?


This is a rather broad question... In my opinion what makes a good leader across the board in different kinds of leaderships, a good leader makes good use of those he leads. He looks at his followers across the board and use all of them to their strengths.

What makes a good leader in factions? It is hard to tell, but the first thing I can see is tat they put the right PC's in the right places, and give the right PC's appropriate jobs and projects. You have a powerful mage? Make him lead he mages, is one a powerful diviner? let her do divination. And so on and so forth.

I think the good leaders have also managed to establish personal connection with their members, in the sense that they make them feel valued and important.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 08 2017, 15:47 PM 



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Joined: 04 Jan 2015

Thanks. I kind of tried to do broad strokes, because I am quite curious about this stuff. You read about the factions of 'glorious old Amia', and I'm kind of curious what made them stand out, and how the faction leadership made them... well, glorious. (I'm also curious on an OOC level, because it seems like they'd be two different things)


 
      
That Guy
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 08 2017, 17:06 PM 



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Joined: 13 Nov 2014

Well, real life leadership and ingame leadership are quite different, and there are a multitude of factors that affect both.

In real life, for example:

1) Often times, the leader can make choices that have a real effect on lives and or quality of live for those they lead.
2) Leaders offer something tangible that others desire, and so, they follow them.
3) This ties to #1, but, a "leader" can also rule by the fist, threatening to kill or harm in some way those they lead.

Ingame:

1) A leader may have influence, either with the playerbase, or the DM team.
2) A leader may simply be fun to be around.
3) A leader may be very active, which may also tie into #2.

Essentially, for a game, the leader has to be present, influential, and fun. If not, the faction will fall apart. That said, since there is no real downside to bad things happening, how seriously players and pc's take the issues is the crux of the matter. Therefore, a leader ingame is really only as good as the players they play with. That said, that leader is just a player too, their character is the leader, and the other characters that follow them are the followers, but the players are all on an even platform. None of them is more important than the others, and in fact, they both need each other. They need each other to be present, and to play along.

None of this was aimed at anyone in particular, before someone starts pointing fingers. It's merely my observations from playing PW servers on NWN for 10+ years and being in positions of leadership ingame, and in real life.


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 08 2017, 21:17 PM 

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Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

robbi320 wrote:
A second thing, and it's one I've been curious for a longer while: ''Generating RP''. I've heard a few times, over the years, that factions should generate their own RP, rather than waiting for DMs. And I've always been a bit curious what is meant by this. I mean, of course, a part is deciding what can be done, and the planning of it. (I'd love some examples if anyone whould be willing to give any as well)


Generating your own RP, for me, means interacting with players outside of your group. When I think of the factions I consider to be successful in the "old glory days," they were groups that made it a point to involve PCs in their goals. PCs that may not share your views or even oppose them. It's fine to want DM quests to go off to faraway lands and liberate/destroy towns. But at the end of the day, your entire goal revolved around a DM facilitating the effort. When you depend on that exclusively, you run the risk of your RP becoming trivial(all your efforts are self-contained and maintain the status quo), or losing interest when a DM isn't giving your group something to pull or push against.

The examples I can think of off the top of my head are aggressive and confrontational, but I don't think they have to be:

Church of Bane: Making the Crags a toll road, actively attempting to convert PCs(even under threat of violence sometimes), taking over Wharftown
Horsemen of the Apocalypse: Similar waylaying of travelers, kidnapping PCs
Eternal Order: Talks and presentations on death and their views of necromancy, actively hunting down and holding trials for PCs they believed were breaking holy tenets
Various Drow Houses: Kidnapping of PCs, seeking out Drow who had escaped or turned their back on the Underdark

You get the picture. As a leader, you determine the goals of your organization. Strive to be a fixture within the playerbase, even if its a hidden fixture.

A side note: Delegation! Don't put it all on your back as a leader. The amount of times I've heard a group say "well, our leader left, so the RP kind of fell apart after a while" is saddening. Have a second-in-command.

Have protocol and general actions that you can still perform without a leader there. That's how real-life organizations continue to function. Heck, in many of them, it's the vice-president or vice-chair that does a lot of the heavy lifting and motivating within the group. It's understandable that when you have a likable, fun leader leave, RP can slow down. But in terms of being able to get stuff done, never, ever, ever have it so that it all depends on one PC being present. A leader should be present as much as possible, but if not, then there should be ways for other PCs to step up. Even if there aren't official ways such as votes, hostile takeovers and mutinies are still totally viable RP options that then continue the group's story as well.

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yimmi
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 09 2017, 20:28 PM 

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I think pretty much what other people have already said:
-Keep a clear goal, to have something more "tangible" is way more attractive than "CONQUER THE WHOLE WORLD", at least for my point of view.
-Being active, but not just logging in and sit on certain place for hours without doing anything. Try to encourage people to pursuit different tasks, that way people that follow the leader realize they are doing something.
-See what are the interest of your followers, I mean why did they join you, what do they wish to accomplish?
Or at least these are the things I would look in a leader!

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 07 2018, 15:47 PM 

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The biggest part to leadership on an OOC level is activity and persistance. Simply put, if you build it they will come. They will come play with you and DMs will eventually pay attention to you. Having the IC of it helps and all that but get yourself a core group of two or three players and just work from there. Call yourself something and say you're recruiting. State your goals and do it.

People will shit on you IC and OOC, playfully and even occasionally maliciously, but eventually you'll find that everyone wants to come to your office for secret meetings. It's just a grind like anything else, but it helps if your core concept is fun.

Also just be talkative. Get in tells a lot, but not about petty shit. Just make friends with everyone. This is a game so it helps to be available as a person who's just fun to talk too.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 07 2018, 18:38 PM 



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Joined: 04 Jan 2015

Damn it bob, always making me feel like a jerk. :D

Thanks for all the input, you guys! (I know, I'm a bit late with it...)

I'll try to keep the advice in mind. I just tend to wonder. I've seen groups disband a few times, I hear about the glorious groups that achieved things, but I never really experienced any of it first-hand.


 
      
bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 07 2018, 21:01 PM 

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Dark Immolation wrote:
Have a second-in-command.



I cannot stress this enough. You cannot be there all the time and you will burn yourself out if you dedicate every waking hour to it. Once you find your core group pick someone reliable that you know is going to help you run the show. Be careful about who you pick though. The "my favorite player" meme is tempting but you want someone that you know is going to be on and be dedicated to playing.

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Richard_Edmund
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 07 2018, 21:19 PM 

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What makes leadership?

Maxing charisma, duh.

/thread

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vhunelar
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 09 2018, 5:23 AM 

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robbi320 wrote:
Essentially, the question boils down to this: What would you expect from a good faction leader, and what suggestions would you have how they could be an interesting addition to the setting?


Certain people are angry as hell at me and this is why - we do not share the same vision on this point. The emotions are just a way of expressing this fact.

For me the faction leader gives orders. They take in information from the others, then determine a course of action. This is where the really good rp comes from. A democratic/communist faction where all have equal say means a random zig zag of events and will cause a dispersal of energy. and I don't ever want to be in that anymore.

For others the faction leader is more like a facilitator. A sort of living flag the other pcs cluster around, give or take, but do not really listen to much if they disagree on anything. They certainly don't take blunt orders from the 'leader'. This is the usual and accepted arrangement. If you are willing to be very flexible yourself, and not expect to have much control on rp direction, you can get this much. but this is a terrible deal for the leader char - they are a doormat. all taking care of others with no compensatory control to make it worth their while. i think robbie deserves your respect for trying this. i didn't see everyone try at all. very easy to criticize his efforts from the side.

**and we are talking about cruel chars here. let us be clear your evil char does not deserve kid gloves on it. it's a nasty thing that needs a firm hand to control it. you want to be really nice and fairly democratic play good only.


This is the source of all the ooc drama. My factions are hierarchical - someone gives orders and others are expected to execute them. characters that talked back to us ic got submissive fast or got into pvp. people were so immature ooc about these facts. i got truly fed up. but i was not nearly as fed up as certain others.

no real organisation runs on 'grassroots democracy'. votes cannot be taken for each issue. but that is the sort of thing players often expect. to have a say in everything. it won't work.

it was my advice to robbie to insist on new chars only. i expect he will change that part now to accommodate your anger.

but i will say:
any serious offer would not mind a new char on his chosen deity for themselves if the leader has to make one. but again, so irritated by these things. your old chars, old themes, etc.

(Note for those curious I also had a slave alt char the faction pcs beat the hell out of physically and emotionally...for those who say i can't take what i dish out.)

This is why as I stated a couple days ago I have decided to stop running public factions. We do have a private one we play around with for those who like my style, but we know we're a minority. If you are curious about our rp please feel free to contact me. But today's events only serve to underline again why it is best we stay 'low profile'


lastly, i want to say this again and this is a good place, those doing so need to stop RIGHT NOW trying to equate me and robbie. i was the one who told you i was tired of things, he has been nothing but nice to all of you. don't you dare take your anger at me out on him and call it right. that would be a very evil thing ooc you did.

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