AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Osiris stood next to Gerald Edmund.

Had a friend cast a single maximized chain lightning on us, on their epic evoker.

We both died to many many many arcs of 120 damage, because apparently the spell doesn't add spellcraft - not for the initial bolt, and not for the arcs.

Basically if you cast this you WILL kill people, do not pass go, do not collect $200, do not let the door hit you on the way to the fugue plane.

I am a firm believer that this is an oversight, and spellcraft is intended to be added to the spell.

the extra bonus bounce damage from the spell foci is saveless by design. it's in the spell changes description. ergo it bypasses evasion and whatnot.

protip get electric resist and watch the damage tank, a 15/- item and a 50% elec ring cuts the damage you take down to nothing.

I'm pretty sure that the extra arcs did give us saves, but none of them gave us spellcraft, will take a picture when I can find a friend with the spell online again.

Also the presence of a rare epic item is not a balancing factor for this spell I feel lol

There are other non-epic items that give resists to electrical.

I use the spell quite frequently in PvE and it's good, but not OP. I can not say that I have used it in PvP though.

msheeler wrote:

There are other non-epic items that give resists to electrical.

I use the spell quite frequently in PvE and it's good, but not OP. I can not say that I have used it in PvP though.

Pvp counter; don't stand on top of people, range is pretty small, and even the most basic of electric resist takes a huge chunk of damage away as it's multiple instances. Basic aoe mitigation/resist strats imo. Unlike spells I consider 'balance problematic' you can't even change the damage type.

http://prntscr.com/fm5s3j

My summon was literally almost across the Cordor arena, and without spellcraft that one casting killed me.

http://prntscr.com/fm5vdt

Again, no spellcraft, and one spell did 240 damage to me with a save that nobody except epic rogues or Gerald Edmund would make because of the lack of spellcraft. With energy buffer it would have done 180 to me total.

So, you know, it's basically a level nine spell that outclasses GR if someone isn't warded, when maximized.

No, this is not balanced, and I think that not adding spellcraft is a bug.

Add spellcraft and maybe reduce the number of bounces by just 1 please.

http://prntscr.com/fm5zc1 We were at full hp and that was only one maximized chain lightning from Hel'vyst.

Pleeeease don't tell me that spellcraft is SUPPOSED to be ignored here. Lol

What's your reflex save and how much plus save gear do you have on

His picture shows a 17 reflex save... And no evasion.

I'll do some.testing on this, but from your screen shot it seems you're issue lies in a very low reflex save (DC 35 is not a huge DC to beat) and you have no evasion and no immunity or resistance to lightening.

I have evasion, and I have a 17 base reflex but 65 spellcraft.

It's not adding spellcraft.

Both Gerald's player and Hel'vyst's player can confirm both of these things.

Okay, guessing that was a maximized chain lightening too. Still a 17 reflex seems very low, spell craft or not, that coupled with no resistance/immunity makes it a deadly combo for you.

Again, I'll do some testing, but I know I frequently use this spell and although it's good, I never found it to be stupidly good.

msheeler wrote:

Okay, guessing that was a maximized chain lightening too. Still a 17 reflex seems very low, spell craft or not, that coupled with no resistance/immunity makes it a deadly combo for you.

Again, I'll do some testing, but I know I frequently use this spell and although it's good, I never found it to be stupidly good.

A two person pack is the ideal max damage situation for the spell.

But if it's not doing spellcraft then I guess that's a bug.

Yeah please just add spellcraft. It is a modified lightning bolt. Needs spellcraft

Just tested with an ecl 30 Target PC who had a summon v out
With a lvl 24 caster and maxed chain lightening I did a grand total of 60 points of damage to the player and didn't even kill the summon.

A maxed IGMS would have done far more damage.

I'm not so certain this really needs any adjustments, it happens to wreck you, but that is more because of your build, not an OP spell.

It still would seem weitd that spellcraft does not help you against a spell...

Msheeler, it seems like you're being disingenuous here. Not saying you are, but you're coming off badly here. A spell doesn't get to ignore spellcraft just because you also happen to use it and like it.

None of us can see what PC you are talking about (for example, an epic rogue/SD would have a very high base reflex, unlike other characters), nor do you have screenshots, nor did you elucidate if your test included epic spell focus Evocation, which my tests did (Hel'vyst is a well known epic evoker). You also didn't specify what summon they had out. (Unless you meant they had Summon Monster 5 out, in which case I really would like to see a screenshot if you're claiming it didn't kill the summon.) I showed you multiple screenshots of me and Gerald getting roflstomped by Chain Lightning, and showed you that it ignores spellcraft.

This spell should not ignore spellcraft. It makes no lore sense and it is somewhat of a balance issue - the entire reason to put spellcraft in a build is because it helps with spell saves, and you're saying "no, build better," even though you're invalidating a build design because... Well none of us know why. I wouldn't have spellcraft if we are deciding that spellcraft doesn't get added to spell saves. I wouldn't have epic spellcraft gloves either. This is a design oversight and invalidates builds who use spellcraft to help with saves vs spells. Stop trying to justify it because you claim that I built poorly. That's your entire argument so far. "You built badly vs spells." I didn't. This spell ignores a primary defense against spells. That's an error.

This one spell is exempt? Why? What reason? Spells with saves almost universally add spellcraft, except for really rare ones like Evard's Tentacles. All other lightning spells I can think of add spellcraft. Implosion adds spellcraft. Great Thunderclap adds spellcraft. IGMS doesn't because IGMS doesn't have a save, don't compare the two spells, that's an erroneous comparison. Compare two direct damage spells with saves, like Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning. Lightning Bolt adds spellcraft. Chain Lightning doesn't. Reason?

Earthquake also adds spellcraft, and can be thought of as the Cleric capstone equivalent to an evoker arcanist (I'd say EQ is somewhat better because of it's KD secondary effect). If Chain Lightning gets it removed, why does EQ have it?

None of this makes sense. This spell needs spellcraft. Even Hel'vyst agrees it needs spellcraft.

msheeler wrote:

I'm not so certain this really needs any adjustments, it happens to wreck you, but that is more because of your build, not an OP spell.

It's a spell that ignores spellcraft and reduces a lot of builds that aren't explicitly dex to something like 19 vs a DC 35+. I've personally watched Gribbo show us how broken it was when they used it on their cleric (with a domain) to kill both Osiris and with literally a single casting and watching it bounce between us for fun. Saying "your build is the problem" is not a productive way to address balance issues. It killed me and I literally cap saves at 39. The only reason I survive it most of the time is because my saves are +10 before that.

A single cast of this spell jumps between people so many times that it can literally kill an entire party if their hp isn't 450+. I'm sorry but it does more damage than hellball in an area effect sheeler. It needs to apply spellcraft.

MisterLich wrote:

Msheeler, it seems like you're being disingenuous here. Not saying you are, but you're coming off badly here. A spell doesn't get to ignore spellcraft just because you also happen to use it and like it.

None of us can see what PC you are talking about (for example, an epic rogue/SD would have a very high base reflex, unlike other characters), nor do you have screenshots, nor did you elucidate if your test included epic spell focus Evocation, which my tests did (Hel'vyst is a well known epic evoker). You also didn't specify what summon they had out. (Unless you meant they had Summon Monster 5 out, in which case I really would like to see a screenshot if you're claiming it didn't kill the summon.) I showed you multiple screenshots of me and Gerald getting roflstomped by Chain Lightning, and showed you that it ignores spellcraft.

This spell should not ignore spellcraft. It makes no lore sense and it is somewhat of a balance issue - the entire reason to put spellcraft in a build is because it helps with spell saves, and you're saying "no, build better," even though you're invalidating a build design because... Well none of us know why. I wouldn't have spellcraft if we are deciding that spellcraft doesn't get added to spell saves. I wouldn't have epic spellcraft gloves either. This is a design oversight and invalidates builds who use spellcraft to help with saves vs spells. Stop trying to justify it because you claim that I built poorly. That's your entire argument so far. "You built badly vs spells." I didn't. This spell ignores a primary defense against spells. That's an error.

This one spell is exempt? Why? What reason? Spells with saves almost universally add spellcraft, except for really rare ones like Evard's Tentacles. All other lightning spells I can think of add spellcraft. Implosion adds spellcraft. Great Thunderclap adds spellcraft. IGMS doesn't because IGMS doesn't have a save, don't compare the two spells, that's an erroneous comparison. Compare two direct damage spells with saves, like Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning. Lightning Bolt adds spellcraft. Chain Lightning doesn't. Reason?

Earthquake also adds spellcraft, and can be thought of as the Cleric capstone equivalent to an evoker arcanist (I'd say EQ is somewhat better because of it's KD secondary effect). If Chain Lightning gets it removed, why does EQ have it?

None of this makes sense. This spell needs spellcraft. Even Hel'vyst agrees it needs spellcraft.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

msheeler wrote:

I'm not so certain this really needs any adjustments, it happens to wreck you, but that is more because of your build, not an OP spell.

It's a spell that ignores spellcraft and reduces a lot of builds that aren't explicitly dex to something like 19 vs a DC 35+. I've personally watched Gribbo show us how broken it was when they used it on their cleric (with a domain) to kill both Osiris and with literally a single casting and watching it bounce between us for fun. Saying "your build is the problem" is not a productive way to address balance issues. It killed me and I literally cap saves at 38. The only reason I survive it most of the time is because my saves are +10 before that.

A single cast of this spell jumps between people so many times that it can literally kill an entire party if their hp isn't 450+. I'm sorry but it does more damage than hellball in an area effect sheeler. It needs to apply spellcraft.

well that's a ton of words.

CL peaks at 2 targets, at 1 it's basically useless, and at >3 it also does far less damage as its capped on bounces.

Setting up the exact situation the spell is made to succeed in and then going "wow it's really great in its ideal situation" isn't really fair, I feel. I think the spell is fine as it is, even w/o spellcraft, as a large part of the bounce damage is saveless anyway.

And you cant change its damage type unlike the 'good' damage spells. And it's still imp evasionable. And it's a ton of instances of minor damage; in your screenshot you'd have taken 60 less damage with just a base 15 resist item, and only 90 total damage if you also had an easily farmable, buyable, or requestable electric resist ring.

Spell isn't a problem. It's fine. You can make it ignoreable by

1. Having more then 2 people or being alone.
2. Having some electric resist
3. Not standing on top of your friends
4. Getting a 50% immunity ring which you can just ask for
5. High reflex and evasion

Doing any one of those takes the bite out of the spell, and doing all of them makes it an un-spell. That's why it has to be good in the one situation that allows it to excel; two targets, close by, no resist gear, low reflex save, no evasion.

Also spamming maximized chain lightinings still isn't as good as mass time stop and empowered/max acid fog or black tentas or whatever damage floor you like, then bigsby's them.

Also I literally have evasion and in this screenshot you can clearly see it hitting me for half damage instead of none on a failed save. This spell is not even working properly. It needs fixing.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Also I literally have evasion and in this screenshot you can clearly see it hitting me for half damage instead of none on a failed save. This spell is not even working properly. It needs fixing.

i dont see your saves at all in that screenshot.

also the arcs ignore saves and thats whats hitting you.

That's because it's his screenshot. My reflex is 28 before spellcraft, but the point is it hit me for half damage which shouldn't be happening with evasion.

Last edited by MisterLich on Wed, Jun 21 2017, 1:34 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Commie, step by step:

1. You're saying that I have to have a group in order to resist a mage's single spell, that's dumb. Just a dumb mechanic requirement. "Be in a group or you lose to the mage, even though you're also a caster." Now I could be alone, but again, this is highly dependent on situations, sometimes we won't be in a group, sometimes we will be, sometimes we'll have summons out. I have a screenshot above showing the spell doing 300 damage total on me alone. No spell should do that much damage to one person without being an epic spell.

2. Having to redo gear for one element, and thus losing Djinn or epic gear that you can't mythal, is not a balancing factor for a universally accessible spell.

3. It reached my summon from across the interior of the Cordor arena.

4. Having to have switch gear to a situationally useful epic item to survive one universally accessible spell is not balance.

5. I have evasion, and I have decent reflex when spellcraft is used - which is the ENTIRE reason you gear spellcraft in the first place.

You're literally saying "build for reflex" when I've already built for reflex, but it's ignoring half of my reflex because it's bugged, and then you're saying "that's because you didn't build reflex."

No.

The arcs are also NOT saveless, they have saves, but they also ignore spellcraft.

They hit for 60 damage and roll reflex.

Look at the screenshot. Jesus.

Responding to people who like to shitpost pvp each other a lot and test stuff to see what works with "git gud" is really not a productive means of discussion either.

I don't even care about that, it's just that the argument here are simply bad.

Epic items useful only to counter ONE spell, and you're saying that makes the spell balanced?

WAT??

MisterLich wrote:

Commie, step by step:

1. You're saying that I have to have a group in order to resist a mage's single spell, that's dumb. Just a dumb mechanic requirement. "Be in a group or you lose to the mage, even though you're also a caster." Now I could be alone, but again, this is highly dependent on situations, sometimes we won't be in a group, sometimes we will be, sometimes we'll have summons out. I have a screenshot above showing the spell doing 300 damage total between me and Bob. No spell should do that much damage to 2 people without being an epic spell.

Wizards are all about situational magic. Got 2 doofus's standing on top of one another that likely arn't good enough to have the only kind of resist that's applicable? Hope you prepared the spell made for exactly that.

MisterLich wrote:

2. Having to redo gear for one element, and thus losing Djinn or epic gear that you can't mythal, is not a balancing factor for a universally accessible spell.

So request it with stats as a custom ring. Electric resist is one mythal slot. Hell buy one of the many elec immunity rings from people selling one and put int on it. That's what Kilmar did and why he did it. You can grab one for under 1 million gold. Or djinn request one with stats you want, I bet you could pull +3 stat 50% resist, I mean they approve +5 int +5 skill rings.

MisterLich wrote:

3. It reached my summon from across the interior of the Cordor arena.

Yeah it's an aoe.

MisterLich wrote:

4. Having to have switch gear to a situationally useful epic item to survive one universally accessible spell is not balance.

Just leave it on all the time, that's what I do. It's the only element now you really 'need' to resist, and it's one mythal slot on one ring.

MisterLich wrote:

5. I have evasion, and I have decent reflex when spellcraft is used - which is the ENTIRE reason you gear spellcraft in the first place.

That's a gear vulnerability you left open yourself by relying on spellcraft instead of +reflex. Lots of amia specific content ignores SC, and im sort of surprised you're just now finding one example.

MisterLich wrote:

You're literally saying "build for reflex" when I've already built for reflex, but it's ignoring half of my reflex because it's bugged, and then you're saying "that's because you didn't build reflex."

No.

Yes.

Also you didn't build for reflex you built for a high reflex save vs only spells with spellcraft. You don't have 17 reflex if you build for it.

I didn't say that I "just found one example of stuff ignoring spellcraft," stop trolling.

I am saying that a SPELL should not ignore SPELLcraft.

Just like ALL OTHER spells don't ignore spellcraft.

Also on point 3, you said "Standing on top of each other" and then acted smug after I showed you the proverbial door on your logic, because we were standing across the arena from each other and it still killed me.

You're wrong on every point. You shouldn't require a piece of epic gear simply to survive a universally usable spell, and one of the main defenses against the spell - spellcraft - being ignored. That is a perversion of the skill. Why not just make spellcraft useless if we're arbitrarily deciding which spells get to ignore it for no reason?

MisterLich wrote:

I didn't say that I "just found one example of stuff ignoring spellcraft," stop trolling.

I am saying that a SPELL should not ignore SPELLcraft.

Just like ALL OTHER spells don't ignore spellcraft.

Also on point 3, you said "Standing on top of each other" and then acted smug after I showed you the proverbial door on your logic, because we were standing across the arena from each other and it still killed me.

You're wrong on every point. You shouldn't require a piece of epic gear simply to survive a universally usable spell, and one of the main defenses against the spell - spellcraft - being ignored. That is a perversion of the skill. Why not just make spellcraft useless if we're arbitrarily deciding which spells get to ignore it for no reason?

First of all you need to relax. There's no need for that tone here.

Second, not all spells apply spellcraft, and some spells have damage with no save at all, lots of the 'spell changes' brought in spells that ignore SC, so it's been a thing for a while.

The arena is not that big. That's close to mid range.

And I'm not wrong on my point, you don't need a piece of epic gear to survive, many of the steps I listed do not require any epic gear. 15/electric is common and helps a shitload. Not being in a group of 2 helps as well. So does being far apart.

SC is bad to rely on, as you're now seeing, on this server, due to how things are, and it's why not many people do it. It is not 'useless' because you are still taking damage from a single spell with a saveless portion while standing in ideal conditions.

Commie, regardless of all this, it still needs spellcraft to remain consistent.

Lightning bolt also isn't op (if we grant your idea that chain lightning isn't op) but it still has spellcraft. It's a direct damage spell making magic zappy juice to fling at people. Needs spellcraft.

I'd frankly be happier if SC didn't give a save bonus at all.

3.5 it doesn't, don't know why it does at all.

Okay I have more details...

I am caster level 24 with epic evocation focus. I cast Maximized Chain Lightening on a Bard build with a summon V cast so I got maximum bounce per target.

The bards reflex save was 24, my spell save was DC 34, one less than your test.

Here is a screen shot

http://puu.sh/wpSZF/01361ae3d0.jpg

Each bounce offers a save vs. half or none if you have evasion, each bounce is subject to any resists and immunities. The screen shot shows my bounces doing 20 damage each to the summon V critter, which is not much at all. The bard made every save but one and took a total of 60 damage.

If you managed a Reflex save of 25 (which is easily doable at epic levels which we are talking about) you'd have a 50% chance of halving each bounce, or taking none with your save. If you had any resistance or immunity to that element you'd reduce the damage to near zero.

The fact that a summon V critter could survive the spell as is when it was used in an optimal situation sorta tells me it's not OP, considering almost any other spell that compares to one would pretty much flatten a summon V. Even, a maxed Ice storm would have done the same or more damage.

Those are the reasons that this spell does not feel miss balanced as it is.

Quote:

The fact that a summon V critter could survive the spell as is when it was used in an optimal situation sorta tells me it's not OP, considering almost any other spell that compares to one would pretty much flatten a summon V. Even, a maxed Ice storm would have done the same or more damage.

Now imagine if you had 15/electric.

Spell is fine as is, imo.

You basically have two choices then Commie, either give CL spellcraft added to it's saves, or remove spellcraft from all spells.

Though I warn against the second option because then all pvp will become "who casts first" unless you are one of the few builds who has maxxed out every save, which is hard to do for most concepts.

@ MSheeler, the bard rolled two 16's and a 12, which is a pretty good bunch of rolls. The summon rolled (based on that one shot) a 20 and a 16.

That's called getting lucky.

Bob and I got killed by a single Chain Lightning from Gribbo's caster. Your mileage varies but it doesn't seem right to ignore spellcraft.

Either way, it still doesn't make sense that a spell doesn't add spellcraft. Either it needs to have spellcraft, or spellcraft needs to be removed from all direct energy spell saves.

MisterLich wrote:

Bob and I got killed by a single Chain Lightning from Gribbo's caster.

Stormfist has autoquicken 3 and shot several.

Was that what this was all about? Getting flattened by the Stormfist of Talos in the arena?

Actually they shot one, I was there.

And no, this is about chain lightning should add spellcraft to the save. You've been reading right?

I shot two chain lightnings

if it doesn't add spellcraft it should

thats my only comment here, if it doesnt respect spellcraft it should, sheeler

thanks in advance

Gribbo wrote:

I shot two chain lightnings

Well, there it is.

OK.

Two chain lightnings.

Two chain lightnings should not instagib two level 30 PC's with high HP (~400 each). Gerald hadn't even lowered his saves for that, it wasn't an organized test, that was a legit "this could happen in pvp if Stormfist decided to wreck house" situation.

Two non-crowd-control spells should not kill, through pure damage, two stacked level 30's. The only way such a thing should happen is if you've crowd controlled them and therefore can keep nuking them with impunity, or if they rolled a 1 on an instant death spell and didn't have death ward up.

I'm with Tormak.

MisterLich wrote:

OK.

Two chain lightnings.

Two chain lightnings should not instagib two level 30 PC's with high HP (~400 each). Gerald hadn't even lowered his saves for that, it wasn't an organized test, that was a legit "this could happen in pvp if Stormfist decided to wreck house" situation.

Two non-crowd-control spells should not kill, through pure damage, two stacked level 30's. The only way such a thing should happen is if you've crowd controlled them and therefore can keep nuking them with impunity, or if they rolled a 1 on an instant death spell and didn't have death ward up.

I'm with Tormak.

Two instances of a spell cast in an utterly ideal situation by a character (Stormlord of the Stormgod named Stormfist) RP and mechanically designed specifically to blow people away with lightning.

Yeah, it should have blown you two apart.

You're just saying "I deserve to win pvp because I'm cool" now, but by proxy for Gribbo.

MisterLich wrote:

You're just saying "I deserve to win pvp because I'm cool" now, but by proxy for Gribbo.

You need to calm down, nobody is saying that.

But if you are standing next to a guy who is literally constantly emitting lightning bolts while riding a stormcloud and has three lightning bolts on his back

expect what you got and don't group up.

I dont know how it could possibly be better telegraphed to you, what's coming.

This isn't about Stormfist dude.

This is about Chain Lightning.

Commie wrote:

MisterLich wrote:

Bob and I got killed by a single Chain Lightning from Gribbo's caster.

Stormfist has autoquicken 3 and shot several.

Was that what this was all about? Getting flattened by the Stormfist of Talos in the arena?

Actually we were just shitposting in the lemurs and he was like "// lol lemme show you guys some silly shit" there's literally nothing wrong with gribbo lol

The thunderous cacophony of that battle is still heard today.

Adding this to my to-do.

Spell should add spellcraft.

A LOT of spells and magical effects do not add Spellcraft bonuses. It's a known bug.

Pretty much every spell and effect with a duration and several others ignore Spellcraft.

"The modifier to saving throws against spells does not help against most spells with a duration, such as storm of vengeance, grease, and combust."

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Spellcraft

Chain Lightning not adding spellcraft

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