AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

If I was playing an evil character, this would be my motto.

Halecta wrote:

The best type of evil are the ones who dont go out and advertise "i am evil"

When a evil PC goes the "Chaotic Stupid" alignment path, they get the good guys riled up against them, which is thinking the only thing a bad guy can do is PvP, when you go around attacking and killing people, that is a quick path to your defeat.

Prominent evil characters generally dont get to power by sheer force, they get there from manipulation and deception, the best kind of evil is the type where no one knows you are a bad guy until it is to late.

Nope.

Cerpin Taxt wrote:

Halecta wrote:

The best type of evil are the ones who dont go out and advertise "i am evil"

When a evil PC goes the "Chaotic Stupid" alignment path, they get the good guys riled up against them, which is thinking the only thing a bad guy can do is PvP, when you go around attacking and killing people, that is a quick path to your defeat.

Prominent evil characters generally dont get to power by sheer force, they get there from manipulation and deception, the best kind of evil is the type where no one knows you are a bad guy until it is to late.

Nope.

Yea that's kind of generalizing evil characters which isn't true. Some evil players did powerhouse their way up the criminal ladder and gained quick support from other evil characters in a short amount of time, until good banned together and squashed them. Evil shouldn't be restricted to hiding in the shadows or in plain sight. Whether that's the best way to play it on this server or not, that's just how evil has had to survive on this server. All because it's the smarter survival choice doesn't make it right.

Not every evil character out there is going to know to play it smart ICly. That's asking each evil character to be similar to one another. Do you want someone playing a Chaotic Evil Ogrillion Barbarian to play it smart all the time? I sure don't, he's a big dumb brute that loves violence he shouldn't know that he has to behave properly when in the company of a person wearing a symbol of Torm. That's what drives me nuts when I constantly hear the same thing over and over again about playing "smart evil". Not every character is going to be smart about it "ICly", some will be stupid, some will benefit from sheer dumb luck. If there's no such thing as "smart good" there shouldn't be "smart evil".

It doesn't take much for good aligned characters to band together to "thwart evil" even a rumor can have them all fully buffed and patrolling the roads like an invading army. I remember one time back when I was in the Banites one of my fellow Banites said a joke about killing villagers, maybe in bad taste but w/e he's a Banite. Maybe 5 minutes later there were no less than 10 fully buffed good PCs on the road looking to stop the 2 Banites. That right there is pretty discouraging that they can muster up that power on a whim. Evil doesn't work well together without a common goal, a goal that they can't achieve on their own that would greatly benefit them. I haven't seen many of those types of plots myself tailored specifically to evil but I could be mistaken.

I personally hate the idea that to be "smart evil" you need to lurk and hide your evilness, or that you can't be forward about it and still excel. People oddly forget that the Forgotten Realms has some pretty dark places and some pretty evil or just corrupt people with a lot of power, and evil often can be a lot more successful since they really don't have a lot of the hangups that the good guys do... Like innocent lives or not torturing people mass murder.

I've played both overt evil and the "smart" type, but really as I see it right now amia has plenty of the lurking evil just waiting but it gets very hard to act when there is no overt evil to work with or to utilize to put you plans into action well.

The Zhentarim are a prime example of successful pretty much completely outright evil succeeding by pure force and I would love to see more evil like that on amia, we already have a fair bit of the evil in hiding, what we need now is some boot stomping militarized command and conquer evil. (Well really all types of evil but especially this)

Ðraco wrote:

It doesn't take much for good aligned characters to band together to "thwart evil" even a rumor can have them all fully buffed and patrolling the roads like an invading army. I remember one time back when I was in the Banites one of my fellow Banites said a joke about killing villagers, maybe in bad taste but w/e he's a Banite. Maybe 5 minutes later there were no less than 10 fully buffed good PCs on the road looking to stop the 2 Banites. That right there is pretty discouraging that they can muster up that power on a whim. Evil doesn't work well together without a common goal, a goal that they can't achieve on their own that would greatly benefit them. I haven't seen many of those types of plots myself tailored specifically to evil but I could be mistaken.

It is funny, because I, on the other hand, remember the times when the majority of the server were Banites and other naughties and going out of certain areas was equal to a death sentence. And to attack or kill a Banite was equal of 10x worse payback. And guess what - back those days, it was good guys who were screaming "Injustice!"

These good vs. evil threads are all the same. They may start different, with different ideas and opinions, but in the end it always come to one simple fact - it is unsolvable. Evil will always hate good and vice versa. And when outnumbered, the one or another side will grumble about unfairness of it all.

And just an example - it is not about "smart" evil. It is about common sense. Of course a chaotic evil ogrillion gets killed if he threats and murder people. But it is the very same example as fanatical paladin who will invade Tarkuul and attempts to kill (or more precisely destroy) all heretics inside. He will be killed as well.

So no, it is not "smart" evil. It's common sense - it's that way of thinking that tells you when you can be naughty and when not. And quite frankly, if your toon (evil or good) lack such a feat, then he deserves to die - call it a natural selection.

I would say just find an evil you do well and do that. Manipulative evil, cunning evil, mastermind evil, butcher evil, brutal evil, sneaky evil, perverse evil, diabolical evil, manic evil, knievel evil. The individual player shines doing a certain brand of evil. I couldn't dwarf my way out of a paper bag, but I can bard an entire Super Wal-Mart, for example.

Banites have never been the majority on amia, I'm not even sure they were ever the biggest faction, and if they were it wasn't by too much. The times where the Banites were really active though was some of the more balanced times though. Although it might not feel like it was balanced if you got used to how amia often is, but at those points where overt evil groups were more active, and even further back when the drow were really active it was a lot more balanced, sure if you were a good character you could safely go fewer places but that same was true for evil going to certain places.

I do agree with Yoss on the playing the evil you play best though, even if I would like to see more of the one type. Always better to play what you are good at or at least like best, since it likely means you will stick it out and that it will be fun.

Back when I started playing the evil pretty much outnumbered the good, this is what motivated me to make a paladin faction in Kohlingen which was the "haunted city" back then because there were only 2-3 Defender running around there. Not to mention that there was only one server.

Now I do not really understand what is the point discussing because you have everything you need to make evil groups, faction or whatever you want.

You have:
- players who want to play evil
- server A and server B
- platforms, locations, hideouts where you can plot your evil things
- a forum to plan your rp

What else do you need?

Lutra wrote:

Back when I started playing the evil pretty much outnumbered the good, this is what motivated me to make a paladin faction in Kohlingen which was the "haunted city" back then because there were only 2-3 Defender running around there. Not to mention that there was only one server.

Now I do not really understand what is the point discussing because you have everything you need to make evil groups, faction or whatever you want.

You have:
- players who want to play evil
- server A and server B
- platforms, locations, hideouts where you can plot your evil things
- a forum to plan your rp

What else do you need?

1. Understanding of lore
2. Punishments for metagaming
3. Emotional connections to characters and their desired outcomes to be dropped

I cannot see it as an excuse to be honest because you more or less have solution for the first two, the third one sounds impossible to me anyway. Players obviousy have that sort of emotional bound, that is why they are playing the game.

Yossarin wrote:

I couldn't dwarf my way out of a paper bag, but I can bard an entire Super Wal-Mart, for example.

I cannot possibly be the only one on this server that says PICS OR GTFO

And also, if you don't have some kind of bond to your character, it's probably not going to be a lot of fun, or successful, and you will be in the EXTREME minority.

Lutra wrote:

You have:
- players who want to play evil
- server A and server B
- platforms, locations, hideouts where you can plot your evil things
- a forum to plan your rp

What else do you need?

A goal, evil doesn't work well together. They're selfish, greedy, manipulative, completely self serving which is why when evil factions band together it's short lived because they're each trying to get the drop on the other. Evil banding together to do evil just isn't enough, it doesn't grab most individual characters especially when there's the threat of good fighting back. Good banding together to defend against evil? Now that is a goal most goody goodies can stand behind. They work well together (for the most part) they have similar goals and ideals. Evil is a bit more open in their opinions and much harder to please.

I personally think that would be a great idea for a DM plot of some kind, some other force controlled by DMs bringing the evil groups together for some nefarious purpose. Evil factions have tried to band together and it always fell apart, I was personally involved in two of them. It was a great idea but it kinda fell apart before anything happened.

Replying to Remal's post on the other topic.

Remal wrote:

GOOD VS. EVIL - I am personally uninterested in this type of conflict, especially PC generated. So far I've witnessed two large events that ended with as total clusterfu*ks, leaving many folks in sour mood and many leaving the server. It's good in moderation but any type of large scale conflict like this won't work, and definitely shouldn't be overarching theme of the server. There's many other possible conflict types who are completely left on the margins, which should be explored or sparked again.

I'm okay with PvP being taken into moderation. The few times my serious evil PCs were called into PvP the actions were quick and decisive, and left their impressions. I think moderation might be pretty good, because as my time playing as a neutral PC who rocked with the goods there was always this sentiment of, "Oh, just those wacky Banites again." "Ignore those evil guys, they'll just get bored and go away" "Didn't we kill this evil punk a few days back just now?"

That sentiment I think is more of a result of good vs evil conflict being overdone, and I can't really blame them since the same old things do get tiresome after awhile. You know, at first it might be a shock but then it just becomes an annoyance and a bore so you break their face in to make them stop. If I were ever do a string of PvPs at hammering the goods, I would want each attack to be a shock instead of a dull thump on the arm. If they kick my ass in one of those, then I think they've earned a respite and time to revel in the victory.

Mind you that's just my opinion, I never got into much PvP as good or evil so I always appreciated it when happened.

Ðraco wrote:

A goal, evil doesn't work well together. They're selfish, greedy, manipulative, completely self serving which is why when evil factions band together it's short lived because they're each trying to get the drop on the other. Evil banding together to do evil just isn't enough, it doesn't grab most individual characters especially when there's the threat of good fighting back. Good banding together to defend against evil? Now that is a goal most goody goodies can stand behind. They work well together (for the most part) they have similar goals and ideals. Evil is a bit more open in their opinions and much harder to please.

I personally think that would be a great idea for a DM plot of some kind, some other force controlled by DMs bringing the evil groups together for some nefarious purpose. Evil factions have tried to band together and it always fell apart, I was personally involved in two of them. It was a great idea but it kinda fell apart before anything happened.

I can dig this. That's the one thing I think evil is lacking. We're too insane and irresponsible to do it ourselves with ease.

From the responses in the thread it looks like it's either down to the DMs to kick-start this, or to a player who can create a character with the correct means to unite all the different evils beneath him. It's difficult if you imagine them being a devotee of one God, since that would generally suggest that a primary goal would be converting or smashing all the non-believers which would lead to more infighting. We need somebody with an agenda that is smack in the middle of the 'Evil Faction Goals' Venn diagram.

We need a selfless evil.

A good villain.

...A dark knight.

I've always liked evil from a story-telling perspective. Without evil, there is no need for heroes and this creates lots of variables to play with: just as heroes are born for many reasons, villains are also born for many reasons.

That's what makes villains so interesting and is why I play a Villain myself.

I've got plans for you evil folks. In the near future, you'll be dealing with me more often.

_Cairn Reborn_ wrote:

We need somebody with an agenda that is smack in the middle of the 'Evil Faction Goals' Venn diagram.

We need a selfless evil.

A good villain.

...A dark knight.

Beep. Error creating character. Mutant class does not exist.

Beep. Error creating character. The name 'Magneto' is already taken. Please select another name.

Damn it!

Selmak wrote:

_Cairn Reborn_ wrote:

We need somebody with an agenda that is smack in the middle of the 'Evil Faction Goals' Venn diagram.

We need a selfless evil.

A good villain.

...A dark knight.

Beep. Error creating character. Mutant class does not exist.

Beep. Error creating character. The name 'Magneto' is already taken. Please select another name.

Damn it!

That's marvel comics, Batman is DC :roll:

Yeah yeah I know, but who wants to make a guy in a bat costume, that's just silly.

And DC sucks, I mean come ON.

I tried to play evil again, (as a Banite obviously) and evidently, there was already a plot set up in Ostland, and for the most part, I think it was thick, good, and pretty well thought out. I can tell that if I had the energy or desire to stick with it, I could potentially keep the walls from caving in on my head for at least a while, and maybe even ride the tide of influence. Though, that being said, that was someone elses' idea, not really mine. Not really even my faction's. I personally had no interest in the plot itself, and I failed to see why my character would be either, given the circumstances. This time especially, I felt the 'helping hand' on my RP, not only just by DM's but by other PC's. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this, but I think the players should be the ones writing the story, not the DM's; and thereby they wouldn't be constantly magnetically redirecting ideas to what they want out of us. But shit, I mean, I guess some people like that, and probably think the exact opposite. Can't please everyone. Part of what the old Banites actually interesting was the lack of any DM-given direction, and while increased DM activity was a blessing I almost felt like they were telling us what to RP, and ultimately the joke of Zhentil Keep continues, as if it wasn't bad enough..

On Audrey a while back we did have a bit of a evil syndicate, but admittedly the only DM who would help us was Bobo, partially because we wanted to do big things, and well, it certainly felt that our group was given the "run around" any time anything that might change the precious plot was suggested. When Bobo stepped down, no DM offered to really help us, since they didn't before anyways, and well, good wins, simply because I CBA to beg DM's to improve the server.

So, take those two points for what it's worth, and then add on the pointless metagaming griefers that happen at least once every 3 days I tried playing, and you'll have a reason why I personally don't feel any motivation.

People don't play evil because 1. There are not enough evil people around to RP with one another, and there are conflicts between them. 2. Anytime evil tries to RP even non-violently with anyone, neutral and good guys either go "LOL NO GO AWAY" or attack you without saying a thing.

If you want evil on the server to have a presence, then you're going to have to breed it yourselves, and give it a chance to grow.

Tarkuul isn't evil and is completely useless to the server, all it does it say "Hey I'm going to offer my help to Cordor and give artefacts to all of our enemies because herp" (and yes I'm sure you have some mystical secret ulterior motives which are irrelevant because you're still helping them and providing no evil RP for the rest of the server and of the several years that I was part of Tarkuul provided no RP to the server in any way shape or form except for to those people involved in Tarkuul and really have had no effect on the server what so ever).

Then Ostland, that is pretty much dead because attempts of trying to actually make progression in that area have completely failed because I'm guessing it is some pre-defined plot that is already scripted out and what ever we do will make no actual impact on the outcome of the plot, similar to the Caraigh plot which forced many evil players to just quit the server because of terrible DM decisions being made and no consiquences happening to Caraigh, and in fact somehow making the island safer after good lost every battle and objective during that entire plot and event, because you know, fuck logic and all that.

Before you start moaning about flaming too, it's not flaming, it's just me putting things in brutally honest terms, without regard to peoples feelings, because most people seem to think that because I play an evil character I must be evil in real life and go around eating babies, plus all other attempts have just been blatantly ignored anyway so maybe this way will work. I doubt it, but ah well. You already know how to make evil happen on the server, I don't need to give any specific ideas or plots. It's the peoples decision.

If an evil PC tries to RP with you and you ignore him or send him on his way or just attack him outright, that's not going to make playing evil characters very advertising, so just apply a little bit of brain power and you'll have your evil.

jimbono1 wrote:

Tarkuul isn't evil and is completely useless to the server, all it does it say "Hey I'm going to offer my help to Cordor and give artefacts to all of our enemies because herp" (and yes I'm sure you have some mystical secret ulterior motives which are irrelevant because you're still helping them and providing no evil RP for the rest of the server and of the several years that I was part of Tarkuul provided no RP to the server in any way shape or form except for to those people involved in Tarkuul and really have had no effect on the server what so ever).

Honesty has to be correct before it can be brutal :roll:

NinjaClarinet wrote:

jimbono1 wrote:

Tarkuul isn't evil and is completely useless to the server, all it does it say "Hey I'm going to offer my help to Cordor and give artefacts to all of our enemies because herp" (and yes I'm sure you have some mystical secret ulterior motives which are irrelevant because you're still helping them and providing no evil RP for the rest of the server and of the several years that I was part of Tarkuul provided no RP to the server in any way shape or form except for to those people involved in Tarkuul and really have had no effect on the server what so ever).

Honesty has to be correct before it can be brutal :roll:

He's got a point, (as someone who's also played in Tarkuul for >1 year). It's pretty much where evil goes to become neutral and die. Therefore, calling it evil, is pointless and in my opinion factually incorrect. Sure, some people can be evil and within Tarkuul, but even those people get kicked out. I wouldn't say it's completely useless, because it can serve other purposes, but it certainly is not evil by any stretch, and therefore plays no influential role in helping this server pretend like evil even exists in a sturdy respected capacity that isn't a play pre-written by a DM.

Last edited by Alaria- on Sat, Sep 28 2013, 8:12 AM, edited 2 times in total.

jimbono1 wrote:

2. Anytime evil tries to RP even non-violently with anyone, neutral and good guys either go "LOL NO GO AWAY" or attack you without saying a thing.

I just wanted to chime in and say that I agree with this part. There's also another aspect in that and it's that characters who do try to interact with these characters are equally punished. That, in combination with the 'rumour mill', is enough to create permanent problems for characters of which they have no way of getting out of.

A server shouldn't punish players for interacting with other players. If anything it should be encouraged.

I always had the feeling that the 'Lawful good brigade' sometimes forgets that there are players behind the characters trying to enjoy themselves. Purposefully trying to starve them of RP or punishing the ones that do interact with them isn't a good way to have people stick around.

jimbono1 wrote:

2. Anytime evil tries to RP even non-violently with anyone, neutral and good guys either go "LOL NO GO AWAY" or attack you without saying a thing.

Tarkuul isn't evil and is completely useless to the server

I'm guessing it is some pre-defined plot that is already scripted out and what ever we do will make no actual impact on the outcome of the plot, similar to the Caraigh plot which forced many evil players to just quit the server because of terrible DM decisions being made and no consiquences happening to Caraigh, and in fact somehow making the island safer after good lost every battle and objective during that entire plot and event, because you know, fuck logic and all that.

Insulting people and their rp and then saying you're brutally honest is no way to treat people and isnt productive. Just saying.

Needled247 wrote:

NinjaClarinet wrote:

jimbono1 wrote:

Tarkuul isn't evil and is completely useless to the server, all it does it say "Hey I'm going to offer my help to Cordor and give artefacts to all of our enemies because herp" (and yes I'm sure you have some mystical secret ulterior motives which are irrelevant because you're still helping them and providing no evil RP for the rest of the server and of the several years that I was part of Tarkuul provided no RP to the server in any way shape or form except for to those people involved in Tarkuul and really have had no effect on the server what so ever).

Honesty has to be correct before it can be brutal :roll:

He's got a point, (as someone who's also played in Tarkuul for >1 year). It's pretty much where evil goes to become neutral and die. Therefore, calling it evil, is pointless and in my opinion factually incorrect. Sure, some people can be evil and within Tarkuul, but even those people get kicked out. I wouldn't say it's completely useless, because it can serve other purposes, but it certainly is not evil by any stretch, and therefore plays no influential role in helping this server pretend like evil even exists in a sturdy respected capacity that isn't a play pre-written by a DM.

I am not sure I am understanding this.
The entire setting of Tarkuul caters to characters who do not easily offend or become bothered with what is going on there. Good aligned characters will have a tough time there accepting the things happening and being done there. That is a fact.

Over the past year from what I have seen of those so called really evil characters who come and go in Tarkuul is the notion that they are the gods gift to evil. And then they walk around being all arrogant and pissy only to be stomped by a Paladin after standing around in the Dale yelling; LOOK AT MA BONE ARM NUBS.
What I see in those characters is something that has been said before in one of these topics. It should be "I am evil because I do this" and not "I do this because I am evil".

I agree the Zhentarim are a good example of brute evil force as much as Thay is the epitome of smart evil. They began building trade Enclaves in every important country of the world for the sheer goal of world domination. Let's face it, with their pawning of magical items and lending power. It is like a stock trade for them.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

The story seems broken and upside down. I don't know how to fix it personally from the player's chair, but it's something to think about.

I was actually just about to post something to that effect, how different the game would be if Cordor went over to Bane (he is the god of tyranny, after all), if something took back control of Wyrmhold and made Wharftown and Uhm its satellite, if the only place on the island where 'good' was dominant was Kohlingen, and it only persisted through the constant efforts of its defenders. Or, even better, if Kohlingen fell and the good guys had to worship in secret, if they gathered in caves and were hunted down by Baneites using Malarite scouts ... Would that not be the shit?

To share my experience of trying to play characters that, if they weren't evil were at least opposed to the goodly factions, is that it never went anywhere because of choices the DM's made. I'd try to start plots, develop my PC, get support from the people and I was rebuffed at every turn, either by not being able to get a DM to help or by having the world completely ignore what I was trying to do. So I got the hint, and I think we 'non-goods' should be used to it by now. And, honestly, DM's, you're in charge. That's what DM is. You can't keep punting back to the players and say, 'Hey, guys, get your act together.' Someone else said it and it's true: it's obvious we aren't going to do what you think we need to do to change the dynamic, so either take the steps yourself or take ownership that things are this way because you're keeping it this way.

The flipside of Yoss' 'concentrate on one character' suggestion is that there aren't a lot of new friends to make, and I'm not talking about leveling. I made a new character to join the Cordor riot squads or whatever and, man, there is no one to riot with. I don't have the OOC ins to convince other players to create new characters with me, so what do I do?

I fall into the 'fix this this catastrophe' crowd - the entire stagnation situation is created by things being too entrenched. If this changes, it changes by act of DM, and I'd welcome it. If it doesn't - and let's be honest, no DM has come out to say they'd even consider this, which as as strong a no as we're going to get - then we have to accept that, as I said above, things are the way they are because the DM's want it to be that way.

Thus, if you are a non-good player, and you want things to change, you're going to have to be willing to catastrophe yourself. Start over, from scratch, not with your own personal plot, but with a plot that five or six of more of us can agree to. Let us make our own RP group, not with our old characters, but together. I volunteer: I'll make a new character, only level it with the group, and w can RP with each other making our own fun.

If you're complaining about lack of non-good RP on the server, put your money where your mouth is. PM me and we can start over together.

Actually a criminal gang in Cordor would be nice again, some sort of renewed Black Flag, considering chaotic situation.
I agree with Phearnun, that setting things right in South Cordor was probably not the best idea, regardless how much I approve the Dev work there.

My primary problem with evil characters is finding people to RP with, people with whom to get things done. Traq just kinda stumbled upon a 1000 faces training session. Nal has been trying to find a trainer for like a year now. Evil characters tend to be uptight assholes who aren't much interested in RPing with people who aren't in their little circle, with a few exceptions... who seem to disappear like a week after I meet them. Nal likes violence. Sometimes he openly admits this. But he does not like people treating him like crap. And even though he likes to see people killing each other, he does not generally go around treating people, especially not potential allies, like garbage, either.

Yossarin wrote:

I would say just find an evil you do well and do that. Manipulative evil, cunning evil, mastermind evil, butcher evil, brutal evil, sneaky evil, perverse evil, diabolical evil, manic evil, knievel evil. The individual player shines doing a certain brand of evil. I couldn't dwarf my way out of a paper bag, but I can bard an entire Super Wal-Mart, for example.

Eeeeh... Elaborate? :0

Muspelkvist wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

I would say just find an evil you do well and do that. Manipulative evil, cunning evil, mastermind evil, butcher evil, brutal evil, sneaky evil, perverse evil, diabolical evil, manic evil, knievel evil. The individual player shines doing a certain brand of evil. I couldn't dwarf my way out of a paper bag, but I can bard an entire Super Wal-Mart, for example.

Eeeeh... Elaborate? :0

What he means is, play what you like to play-- and you'll be far better at it, and most likely make a larger impact with that character. Yoss's bard was perhaps one of the most epic bards the server has seen. And I can't imagine his playing a dorf!

In terms of an Evil character, I'll give an example with myself. I love playing masterminds and manipulators-- Information gathering is a huge theme of mine, if you look at any of my characters (Haan, Henry, etc). Its something that I just -love- doing. Hell, its something I want to make a career out of. So I am much more excited about hopping in game to play that character than I would be if I tried to make, say, a Seaamros clone myself, or some kind of Knightly Superevil. And because there's a strong OOC desire to play my character, its more than likely that I'll have a larger impact for a longer time, create a richer persona, and have/create more fun.

(For those who didn't know, and I hope Sea-horse's player is okay with my referencing: Seaamros was very much an open, badass, walk-into-a-town-and-make-people-whisper sort of evil)

Zedrik wrote:

My primary problem with evil characters is finding people to RP with, people with whom to get things done.

With the current climate for evil it's definitely worth making some OOC arrangements if you want to get anywhere fast. PM people on the forums or in-game, don't be shy. I know for a fact that you can be waiting for a very long time to find a kindred evil character if you roll solo.

Quote:

They're selfish, greedy, manipulative, completely self serving which is why when evil factions band together it's short lived because they're each trying to get the drop on the other.

Something occurred to met when I read this. One of my favorite things to do with characters is to take a generalized statement like this and try to defeat it. Sometimes it can fail if it is too heavy-handed, but most of the time, with enough thought, you can produce a neat character by defying the expectation. Imagine an evil character who is not one of those things, such as "completely self-serving". Ask yourself the question, "In what way is he or she not self-serving?" and then try to answer that question to yourself in detail as if you were going to be on your next exam.

That is more of a general recommendation that can apply to anybody, evil or not, but I think it serves evil better these days. The modern audience is intrigued by an antagonist who doesn't fit their preconceived notions, and the best of them become the bad guys you want to root for.

I am aware this doesn't address the other problems with playing evil characters on Amia that you're currently discussing, but I really have nothing constructive to contribute to that.

And Hackums is right about the interpretation of my post, Muspelkvist. Play an evil you like and want to play and you'll probably be good at it. Lately, I've had a hard-on to play a certain character concept: the blackguard who is evil for no other purpose than to be evil. To challenge myself to play an "evil for evil's sake" character without being two-dimensional. He is the kind of guy who commits random acts of "evil" for no particular goal.

Like giving knives to young children and telling them they are toys.
Antagonizing the homeless and hungry by eating huge, sloppy, greasy meals in front of them.
Following a family home from a funeral to know where they live so that he can dig up the body and lay it on their doorstep.
Bearing false witness about people all the time. "That man? Yes, I saw him exposing himself to those senior citizens. It was, in a word, delightful."

In reference to the UD listings in the original post...

Please toss me up on L'Obsul as well in a supporting role. Galenson is becoming champion DM of Underport.

Also, I will read this more thoroughly later today.

Yossarin wrote:

Quote:

They're selfish, greedy, manipulative, completely self serving which is why when evil factions band together it's short lived because they're each trying to get the drop on the other.

Something occurred to met when I read this. One of my favorite things to do with characters is to take a generalized statement like this and try to defeat it. Sometimes it can fail if it is too heavy-handed, but most of the time, with enough thought, you can produce a neat character by defying the expectation. Imagine an evil character who is not one of those things, such as "completely self-serving". Ask yourself the question, "In what way is he or she not self-serving?" and then try to answer that question to yourself in detail as if you were going to be on your next exam.

You don't really need to take one of those traits and invert it, just present it in a different manner. My favorite character on another server was all of those things, yet was considered fairly benign despite his efforts to cultivate a badass evil persona, primarily because he was kind of TOO self-centered, greedy, manipulative, and selfish to really be much of a threat. He cooperated with others to get his way and his power, and so long as people didn't threaten his perception of holding that power, he was actually rather helpful ally. Anti-villains don't get enough lovin'. And are nearly impossible to play on Amia. Least from my perspective. Too much "OMG he's evil, killit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Hudson wrote:

jimbono1 wrote:

2. Anytime evil tries to RP even non-violently with anyone, neutral and good guys either go "LOL NO GO AWAY" or attack you without saying a thing.

Tarkuul isn't evil and is completely useless to the server

I'm guessing it is some pre-defined plot that is already scripted out and what ever we do will make no actual impact on the outcome of the plot, similar to the Caraigh plot which forced many evil players to just quit the server because of terrible DM decisions being made and no consiquences happening to Caraigh, and in fact somehow making the island safer after good lost every battle and objective during that entire plot and event, because you know, fuck logic and all that.

Insulting people and their rp and then saying you're brutally honest is no way to treat people and isnt productive. Just saying.

It wasn't an insult. If you're so easily offended then perhaps the internet isn't the place for you.

Anyway, one major problem with evil is a lot of it is destructive, and they expect their destruction to last forever and never be repaired by good which is unreasonable and silly. However there are certain constructive and creative evils out there, such as the Banites, and Tarkuul if it actually interacted with the server and did actual evil things, which have the potential to create a force to take land from the forces of good, and claim more territories. The RP has been tried, and ultimately failed, but honestly this is the only way you will ever get anything long-lasting with evil. Not by destroying things, but by either creating, or converting. It's just that it is not reasonable to ever consider it a possibility.

Also it seems to me that there is no evil on Amia A. At least not on the main island. Everywhere you go is a place were either evil is banned, or an unsafe place where people can just PvP you for looking evil, which happens most of the time. Sure we have places we can go on B, but most of the players are never centred on B. Most of the RP takes place on A. It is only during events that I ever see more people on B than A. You can't choke evil out of the server and make it unplayable or at least not enjoyable, then complain that there is no evil to RP with.

Tarkuul has plans, you just kinda have to, you know, rp with the PCs to find out.

I'd say Tarkuul is NE in alignment. Just because they don't send a million zombies to Cordor doesn't make it any less evil than ones that just blow up everything.

Totally right, Zedrik. Totally right.

I'm going to offer no help whatsoever and say that I've always hated the traditional d&d Good-Evil division and have always preferred to see it as Moral-Immoral. Or Paragon-Renegade if you want to get ME about it.

Elorathall wrote:

I'm going to offer no help whatsoever and say that I've always hated the traditional d&d Good-Evil division and have always preferred to see it as Moral-Immoral. Or Paragon-Renegade if you want to get ME about it.

+1. The mechanical alignment system is the single worst concept in the history of D&D. Its sole function in the game is the manufacturing of OOC fights between players.

jimbono1 wrote:

Tarkuul isn't evil and is completely useless to the server

Kind of became tl;dr after that.

jimbono1 wrote:

...Tarkuul if it actually interacted with the server and did actual evil things...

They would just get gangbanged by Good forces.

Much like an Amia porn.

Admittedly I've only skimmed the topic, however in regards to Tarkuul specifically, I can certainly see where jimbono1 came by his statement. Looking in from the outside, Tarkuul is not evil, it's very much neutral aligned that happens to have evil people in it. And at the risk of sounding cliche, "That's what we want you to think!"

It's been slow going, and a year or two ago when I first started in with Tarkuul, it didn't have either the numbers or the structural integrity (literally and metaphorically) to be a "big bad"; it would have gotten crushed just like the Banite temple everyone keeps talking about if it had stuck its neck out and done "active evil".

Without giving away any spoilers, in the time since then it's built itself up structurally (through a remarkable amount of work by PCs) and has been slowly plotting away behind the scenes. Granted this isn't everyone's brand of evil, and some people have had to be "kicked to the curb" because their brand of evil has been such a threat to this quiet build-up that Tarkuul has needed. But again, if this didn't happen, Tarkuul would be sunk by now. Or a ghost town (as far as PC activity, see wut I did thar?)

I don't really want to go into any more detail here because it has the potential to spoil things for the future. What I will say though is that I do apologize to those who play evil PCs that either feel they don't fit in there at all, or feel their RP is stagnated or strangled under Tarkuul's IC environment, or that have been ousted from Tarkuul due to "too evil actions" or the like. It has been a necessity to work towards that bright light at the end of the road, that promised land where evil actually has a stable place to work from, and unfortunately that takes a remarkable amount of patience both ICly and OOCly to get there and not everyone can bring that to the table.

I hope that helps to better explain why Tarkuul has taken the path that it has.

Dead wrote:

jimbono1 wrote:

Tarkuul isn't evil and is completely useless to the server

Kind of became tl;dr after that.

Biased opinion based upon personal problem with said city/Faction?

Naivatkal wrote:

They would just get gangbanged by Good forces.

Much like an Amia porn.

Great Smite XXX. This is not gonna be pretty, we're talking violence, strong language, adult content.

Naivatkal wrote:

jimbono1 wrote:

...Tarkuul if it actually interacted with the server and did actual evil things...

They would just get gangbanged by Good forces.

Much like an Amia porn.

The problem with that is that the Voice would be breaking character. It doesn't care about the goings on outside it's city walls. When I think of Tarkuul and the Voice I'm reminded of Larloch. Ultimately he doesn't give a shit about what other people do so long as he gains more knowledge and power and making sure no outside force hinders that. For that reason Tarkuul is not a great RP hub because it doesn't really interact with the outside world as you said. Unless the Voice's "magical programing" is somehow altered by "chaotic magics" or whatever I can't see anything with it changing.

Granted nobody really knows what is going on inside that big magical brain of "it's", even the council probably only knows as much as the Voice is willing to tell them. Tarkuul feels more like political RP in the city which can get pretty boring, for me at least. It's really slow paced which works for some people but others just don't have that kind of patience.

To me it felt like I was doing pretty much all of my work through the forums instead of RPing in game, writing essay after essay so things progress in game. Which is why that Magisterium didn't work for me personally, was just project after project of me going on the forums and pulling made up magical crap out of my ass and hoping I'm right. As for the guards, protectrate or whatever they're calling themselves now how often do they actually get decent RP in the city? There are literally hundreds of undead in the city controlled through a hivemind if things actually get hairy and would act on a moments notice because the Voice see's and knows all that happens in the city. When I talk to guards in OOC it's like protecting Tarkuul is just a hobby, they get their real kicks with their own dealings outside the city.

Alaria- wrote:

I just wanted to chime in and say that I agree with this part. There's also another aspect in that and it's that characters who do try to interact with these characters are equally punished. That, in combination with the 'rumour mill', is enough to create permanent problems for characters of which they have no way of getting out of.

A server shouldn't punish players for interacting with other players. If anything it should be encouraged.

Without coming off like a dick (hopefully) there is something you're blaming on OOC that is actually IC.

If you hang out with openly bad, murderous people, you are going to be shunned by good people. This isn't anyone trying to "starve you of RP", and we don't hate you OOCly or want to kill your good time. This is the actual consequence, IC, to the actions you've chosen, IC. It just happens to suck ass OOCly as well. Trust me, I've been there, and had to spend -years- working on the public image of my chars (See: Katsumi)

P Three wrote:

If you hang out with openly bad, murderous people, you are going to be shunned by good people. This isn't anyone trying to "starve you of RP", and we don't hate you OOCly or want to kill your good time. This is the actual consequence, IC, to the actions you've chosen, IC.

Not sure if this is the original intent, but what I took from Alaria's post was this: if you've got a character, and you can't get anyone to join in your character development because they won't acknowledge or participate in what you do, then you're going to have a bad time. I think online role players should be required to take improv classes so they'll learn this important rule: don't negate the premise. Roll with what's happening, participate, let someone else write the script from time to time.

Selmak wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

They would just get gangbanged by Good forces.

Much like an Amia porn.

Great Smite XXX. This is not gonna be pretty, we're talking violence, strong language, adult content.

*highfives* :>

Ðraco wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

jimbono1 wrote:

...Tarkuul if it actually interacted with the server and did actual evil things...

They would just get gangbanged by Good forces.

Much like an Amia porn.

The problem with that is that the Voice would be breaking character. It doesn't care about the goings on outside it's city walls. When I think of Tarkuul and the Voice I'm reminded of Larloch. Ultimately he doesn't give a shit about what other people do so long as he gains more knowledge and power and making sure no outside force hinders that. For that reason Tarkuul is not a great RP hub because it doesn't really interact with the outside world as you said. Unless the Voice's "magical programing" is somehow altered by "chaotic magics" or whatever I can't see anything with it changing.

Ah, hasn't the Voice lost it's power in Tarkuul with the rise of the old Netherese Archmage? I'm pretty sure that's what has been said via the Tarkuulian plots and correspondence on the boards (public knowledge stuff from the plots threads and all). I thought the Archmage is usurping the Voice.

I wouldn't know, I can only speak from past experience.

Being Evil on Amia

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