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Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 10 2018, 19:32 PM 

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StifterEL wrote:
Right now we're pulling like 6-10 players at the high points during the day. If we lost players on the change, what would our numbers even be?


I imagine they would be higher than ten people, I think you're lying to yourself in thinking you haven't lost people to the switch already, or lack of a switch rather. I've seen Arelith pull in 170 players across their 3 servers on their peak. That is a drastic difference and it also means you don't have to wait for the server to be at its peak in order to get any RP. If they can't get their RP here then they'll get it elsewhere. I remember back when I was more active on here when Amia was booming the odd person to loggout and go on Arelith, I can only imagine it's increased since EE came out.

StifterEL wrote:
Why would players of EE log to the new amia over the already established servers with high player counts?


Simply put, ease of access. Not all gamers are tech savy and figuring out how to load haks can be a daunting process for some. Steam makes it as simple as possible, just click the "Subscribe" button in the steam workshop under the Amia hak, wait for download then play. Which means bringing in new players will be so much easier especially since with EE out no new players are going to waste money on its outdated version.

StifterEL wrote:
You said yourself there's a lack of devs, who would make the new server? Just making a simple version of Amia from scratch would be alot of work.
Amia has developed over years and years, just making a bare minimum playable version would be alot of hours of work.


Yea maybe your right and it would take a lot of work especially when so short manned but the alternative doesn't look a whole lot better. I've been checking the forum off and on and I've seen the downward spiral to what it is now. Amia is a great server but it's lacking that fundamental factor, PLAYERS! It doesn't bring in new players as easily as other servers and now that EE has come out and I'm personally witnessing a boom on every server but Amia. It's starting to feel like Amia's days may be numbered if something isn't done about it.

As to the lack of devs, while I know it's a gamble but I'm positive that if Amia with its past reputation would attract new players and devs alike. If you build it, they will come. Over the weekend I saw a couple other players and 43 guests on the forums. That's the most activity I've seen on the forums in a while, it's just speculation but that looks like new players looking to play on Amia.

Lascer wrote:
So start it over. Push the setting forward in time. Incorporate significant characters from Amian history into the canon lore of the next chapter.


I approve of this message. :twisted:

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StifterEL
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 10 2018, 20:18 PM 

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Ðraco wrote:
I imagine they would be higher than ten people, I think you're lying to yourself in thinking you haven't lost people to the switch already, or lack of a switch rather.

No seriously right now we're lucky to have 10 players online at peak hours, Yesterday at Elyon's event we had a pretty good turnup of 7 players or 8 including the DM.

Ðraco wrote:
I've seen Arelith pull in 170 players across their 3 servers on their peak.


From what I saw on the server list they had pretty much full servers several times as week before they swapped to EE
That is a drastic difference and it also means you don't have to wait for the server to be at its peak in order to get any RP. If they can't get their RP here then they'll get it elsewhere. I remember back when I was more active on here when Amia was booming the odd person to loggout and go on Arelith, I can only imagine it's increased since EE came out.

Ðraco wrote:
Simply put, ease of access. Not all gamers are tech savy and figuring out how to load haks can be a daunting process for some. Steam makes it as simple as possible, just click the "Subscribe" button in the steam workshop under the Amia hak, wait for download then play. Which means bringing in new players will be so much easier especially since with EE out no new players are going to waste money on its outdated version.


That doesn't really asnwer my question which was: Why would EE players choose Amia over already established servers with higher numbers?.
If Amia is remade from the ground up we loose alot of what makes Amia unique, We would simply end up with the same issues we had before EE was released.
Which was people was logging Arelith and other servers instead of Amia because of higher player coutns. The Amia player numbers started dropping well before EE was released.
Simply moving it to EE won't solve that and I think we'd loose too much of our player base in the process.

Would the new server be hosted on a different server? If so who would even pay for it?
If those who run Amia now would leave on a EE switch who would take over the server and pay for it?

And finaly from what I'm observing the player numbers has actualy had a slight increase the past two weeks, I've seen fresh characters and new logins.
Ofcourse it could be old timers returning or people making new accounts, but it's seems to be an increase nonetheless.

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Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 10 2018, 20:44 PM 

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StifterEL wrote:
That doesn't really asnwer my question which was: Why would EE players choose Amia over already established servers with higher numbers?.
If Amia is remade from the ground up we loose alot of what makes Amia unique, We would simply end up with the same issues we had before EE was released.
Which was people was logging Arelith and other servers instead of Amia because of higher player coutns. The Amia player numbers started dropping well before EE was released.
Simply moving it to EE won't solve that and I think we'd loose too much of our player base in the process.


Because people get bored of the same old thing and are curious if the grass is greener on the other side. Amia has a past reputation that'll attract some then more will follow in turn. Many of the players on Arelith will likely give it a shot, Amia is basically a spin off of Arelith gone in another direction so Amia has that advantage. I think Amia was made unique by the stories more than the flashy scripts, but I'm sure they helped.

StifterEL wrote:
The Amia player numbers started dropping well before EE was released.
Simply moving it to EE won't solve that and I think we'd loose too much of our player base in the process.


Steam workshop solves part of that issue with the ease of access but that's also why I think a reboot would be essential to bringing in new players. Players and DMs alike going forward with a clean slate, redoing the server with everything they know now. I'm sure that would help to attract those players as well.

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StifterEL
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 10 2018, 21:33 PM 

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Ðraco wrote:
Because people get bored of the same old thing and are curious if the grass is greener on the other side. Amia has a past reputation that'll attract some then more will follow in turn. Many of the players on Arelith will likely give it a shot, Amia is basically a spin off of Arelith gone in another direction so Amia has that advantage. I think Amia was made unique by the stories more than the flashy scripts, but I'm sure they helped.


If that was the case we would have seen alot more Arelith players on Amia before EE was released, instead their numbers have been steady while Amia numbers have dropped
alot this past year. I think we would run into the same issues with players we had before EE was a thing. Think of it this way, if you were a new player how would you
go about choosing a server to join? You would sort the servers from most played to least played and you'd choose one at the top.

Also the EE numbers aren't exactly great, the all time peak of players playing it at the same time since it's release is less than 2000 players.
And the daily player counts seem to be 500 at low points to 1300 at peak hours. Theese numbers are likely to drop once the initial new release hype has died down.
If EE wasn't a low budget remake it would pretty much be a failure and to be honest even as a remake it seems to be a failure.

If the server could simply be moved to EE which it doesn't seem like it can since the script extender only has linux support and not windows support.
It's something I could get behind. I do think a remake would kill the server, but if enough people rally behind the idea and we have some actual devs to do the work
I'm not going to oppose the idea. We do however need devs willing to make the initial base server for EE and so far I've yet to see anyone willing to do so.

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 10 2018, 22:29 PM 

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Creating or not creating a EE version of Amia has nothing to do with wants or not, we do not have the devs to do it & we don't have the player count to justify someone spending 100s of hours to get it done unless we get volunteers who are willing to do that work. If anyone is willing to sign on as a Dev and help solve the problem there, then super, feel free to send in an application. If you want to help stave off the problem by logging in and playing, then super do that too.

Saying what SHOULD be done, offers no solution to the problem when you're not willing to try and help to be part of the solution. Be part of the solution and help us all out, rather than say this and that should be done without being willing to put in any work yourself to help save the server or create an EE version of Amia.

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 10 2018, 22:36 PM 

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Ðraco wrote:
Simply put, ease of access. Not all gamers are tech savy and figuring out how to load haks can be a daunting process for some. Steam makes it as simple as possible, just click the "Subscribe" button in the steam workshop under the Amia hak, wait for download then play. Which means bringing in new players will be so much easier especially since with EE out no new players are going to waste money on its outdated version.


To be fair if someone isn't tech savvy now about NWN it being on Steam really isn't going to help them! Most the people i know from NWN have been about since the game started, those that are new to it are fairly young and at least can follow instructions and the ones using Steam in my experience know something about computers and files. In the modern world not being tech savvy is a minor annoyance at best!

My issue isn't down to not understanding how it works but Steam itself hampering play. My game library is shared with my son so if he is playing, ANY game which runs through Steam can't be played as the account will only allow access to the library for one user... which is a pain. Yes i have EE but i'm sticking with the Beamdog client as it means i can at least play if my Steam library is in use. Steam does make things easier but you have the same issue with there as the original game did... people making and releasing content and actively updating it each time Beamdog make a change to the base game. In the days of old NWN was pretty much a one off thing, it still is in some respects, but i can't see a second golden age of people building and maintaining content for it even with the Steam workshop.

I point out i would love to be proved wrong over time on this one!! heh

As for the nwnx for windows, i did a search on Beamdogs own forum and it looks like they have no real interest in adding support for it... at this time, and indeed all work towards a nwnx windows release is seemingly done by one person who is helping Beamdog at present but is doing work on nwnx as a side project when they have both the time and the motivation! Once again work on making the game work for most of the servers what would use it does seem to be placed solely on the shoulders of the community which already has the opinion of why fix it again if it currently works for them. I don't know the technical aspects of it but i'm guessing it was easier for Beamdog to do the support for the Linux based system than the Windows one... at least in my understanding of what i read about the issues faced by converting and checking all the code.

Path of least resistance to yield a profitable fruit i guess.

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Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 11 2018, 0:42 AM 

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Gravemaskin wrote:
Creating or not creating a EE version of Amia has nothing to do with wants or not, we do not have the devs to do it & we don't have the player count to justify someone spending 100s of hours to get it done unless we get volunteers who are willing to do that work. If anyone is willing to sign on as a Dev and help solve the problem there, then super, feel free to send in an application. If you want to help stave off the problem by logging in and playing, then super do that too.

Saying what SHOULD be done, offers no solution to the problem when you're not willing to try and help to be part of the solution. Be part of the solution and help us all out, rather than say this and that should be done without being willing to put in any work yourself to help save the server or create an EE version of Amia.



Ðraco wrote:
I noticed Sinfar added one today but they're still 1.69. They have a gateway server on EE, as long as you downloaded the hak on steam EE players join there and get ported to the 1.69 server.


This still seems like a possible solution.

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 11 2018, 2:03 AM 

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Weren't aware of this, will ask our devs and investigate to see if this is something that could be done for Amia as well. Thanks for the information.

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StifterEL
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 11 2018, 3:26 AM 

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Now that is an excellent suggestion!

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 11 2018, 5:09 AM 

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We get in on the new NWN/Steam interest, we don't actually have to change anything server-wise, and no current players have to buy NWN:EE if they don't want to.

That honestly seems like the best possible solution, if it is possible.

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Lascer
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 11 2018, 9:58 AM 

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Gravemaskin wrote:
Creating or not creating a EE version of Amia has nothing to do with wants or not, we do not have the devs to do it & we don't have the player count to justify someone spending 100s of hours to get it done unless we get volunteers who are willing to do that work. If anyone is willing to sign on as a Dev and help solve the problem there, then super, feel free to send in an application. If you want to help stave off the problem by logging in and playing, then super do that too.

Saying what SHOULD be done, offers no solution to the problem when you're not willing to try and help to be part of the solution. Be part of the solution and help us all out, rather than say this and that should be done without being willing to put in any work yourself to help save the server or create an EE version of Amia.


You're saying the /only/ thing we can do is log into the server and play. The same server that has no devs to build things, and I can't even get a LETO to merge my old account after coming back... 3+ months and counting. The same server that was dying before EE, and is denying any possibility of any sort of switch to the lifeline EE could be.

The solution to taking advantage of EE isn't ignoring it, not even if it's 'impossible'.

If there is a path to putting Amia on EE, make a list of what is actually needed. No the 'it's impossible, we don't have devs' "list", but a call for builders, or funding, or whatever else. All you guys are saying is that it can't be done, and offering a bare explanation of why it cannot be done one way. What I hear (I don't want to put words in anyone else's mouth, but I don't think it's just me) is that you're (the server as a whole) unwilling to move to EE unless it can happen in that one, specific, impossible way, and refuse to entertain any other ideas.

I don't mean any of that to sound or be mean or harsh, it's just the frustration I'm sure is mutual. I want to see Amia continue, it has value other servers do not. But being told it's impossible, while I'm playing on servers with no major special scripts and crappy basic areas, with double the population of Amia and new players checking it out every day... it just doesn't add up.

StifterEL wrote:
That doesn't really asnwer my question which was: Why would EE players choose Amia over already established servers with higher numbers?.
If Amia is remade from the ground up we loose alot of what makes Amia unique, We would simply end up with the same issues we had before EE was released.


EE servers are NOT already established. Some have a head start, but they are -establishing themselves right now-. The timeline is still in months, at best, and that's basically just Arelith. Why would people choose a simplified version of Amia over others? For the same reason they always did, because we have an established history, involved DMs, and a process that lets players do more than the basic game allows. Because Amia offers something other servers do not, and it isn't purely 'scripts'. The scripts came after what made Amia unique. It wouldn't be the same, not right off the bat, but it's really starting to sound more and more like Amia is just afraid of -any- change. There aren't even that many servers to compete with, not yet, and even fewer are RP servers, even less have an active and experienced DM team.

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StifterEL
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 11 2018, 13:15 PM 

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Lascer wrote:
You're saying the /only/ thing we can do is log into the server and play. The same server that has no devs to build things, and I can't even get a LETO to merge my old account after coming back... 3+ months and counting. The same server that was dying before EE, and is denying any possibility of any sort of switch to the lifeline EE could be.

The solution to taking advantage of EE isn't ignoring it, not even if it's 'impossible'.

If there is a path to putting Amia on EE, make a list of what is actually needed. No the 'it's impossible, we don't have devs' "list", but a call for builders, or funding, or whatever else. All you guys are saying is that it can't be done, and offering a bare explanation of why it cannot be done one way. What I hear (I don't want to put words in anyone else's mouth, but I don't think it's just me) is that you're (the server as a whole) unwilling to move to EE unless it can happen in that one, specific, impossible way, and refuse to entertain any other ideas.

I don't mean any of that to sound or be mean or harsh, it's just the frustration I'm sure is mutual. I want to see Amia continue, it has value other servers do not. But being told it's impossible, while I'm playing on servers with no major special scripts and crappy basic areas, with double the population of Amia and new players checking it out every day... it just doesn't add up.


If you do not even play on amia it's not like it's going to matter much if the server dies, the server dies nothing changes you still don't play on amia anyways.
What you are basicly saying is Amia isn't good enough right now for me to play on it, fix it so I can come and play and to be honest it's getting kind of old.
The suggestion Draco came with if it can be done is an amazing solution to the problem. It's risk free and it gives us access to the EE playerbase.


Lascer wrote:
EE servers are NOT already established. Some have a head start, but they are -establishing themselves right now-. The timeline is still in months, at best, and that's basically just Arelith. Why would people choose a simplified version of Amia over others? For the same reason they always did, because we have an established history, involved DMs, and a process that lets players do more than the basic game allows. Because Amia offers something other servers do not, and it isn't purely 'scripts'. The scripts came after what made Amia unique. It wouldn't be the same, not right off the bat, but it's really starting to sound more and more like Amia is just afraid of -any- change. There aren't even that many servers to compete with, not yet, and even fewer are RP servers, even less have an active and experienced DM team.


Well the experienced DM team etc doesn't exactly show up on the server list now does it? The only players we'd get are those that acutaly research Amia.
And why would anyone look up a server with less than 10 people on when Arelith has 100+ people online? We had the same problem before EE
and I don't see it magicaly getting fixed just because we move to EE.

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Last edited by StifterEL on Wed, Apr 11 2018, 13:40 PM, edited 3 times in total.

 
      
Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 11 2018, 13:23 PM 

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Lascer wrote:
You're saying the /only/ thing we can do is log into the server and play.
The solution to taking advantage of EE isn't ignoring it, not even if it's 'impossible'.

No, what I'm saying is
Gravemaskin wrote:
Creating or not creating a EE version of Amia has nothing to do with wants or not, we do not have the devs to do it & we don't have the player count to justify someone spending 100s of hours to get it done unless we get volunteers who are willing to do that work.
We don't have the devs to "take advantage of EE", no matter how much we want to. (Still checking to see if what Draco pointed out is something that's possible for Amia to do). We're down to 1 developer right now, as with players we've lost a lot of people over the last few months who either disappeared, lost interest or got to busy with RL stuff. I didn't say the ONLY thing you can do is to log in and play, I also said that you could apply to be a dev, if you have the skillset, time and patience to donate to the server. Other than that... yes, player activity is sort of a pre-requisite to running the whole thing because without players Amia has no purpose.

Lascer wrote:
The same server that has no devs to build things, and I can't even get a LETO to merge my old account after coming back... 3+ months and counting.

Here it sounds like you're saying that one of the reasons not to play is a lack of devs to create new conetnt, but then say Amia needs to move to EE which needs hundreds of dev hours of work.. That's sort of contradictory, yeah we're low on devs & staff right now because the player count is down & people get fed up, busy with RL or burnt out. If the problem is to be solved, we need a playerbase to recruit from, which means active players who conduct themselves in a manner that makes them attractive as DM or Dev candidates. As for leto requests taking time, that's because it requires remotely connecting to the server and fiddling around with things there, if stuff is taking long you can bump it either on the forums or by nudging a DM ingame. If they know how and are free, then generally stuff can get done if it's okayed. Also requests also generally don't get done & put on hold if the player has been gone for a while.

Lascer wrote:
If there is a path to putting Amia on EE, make a list of what is actually needed. No the 'it's impossible, we don't have devs' "list", but a call for builders, or funding, or whatever else. All you guys are saying is that it can't be done, and offering a bare explanation of why it cannot be done one way. What I hear (I don't want to put words in anyone else's mouth, but I don't think it's just me) is that you're (the server as a whole) unwilling to move to EE unless it can happen in that one, specific, impossible way, and refuse to entertain any other ideas.


There might be one.. We need devs that are willing to put in the hours of work to try and get it done. If you know anyone who's willing, then feel free to point them our way.
Money won't solve anything because whoever got hired would have to spend a lot of time to try and learn the infrastructure behind how Amia works (pretty much every server right now is unique and made up of patches on patches on patches, which can make them unstable when you fiddle with them). If we wanted to solve it with money, we'd also need between 60-100 USD per hour, which is unrealistic as we don't get in enough donations to cover monthly operating costs.

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Lascer
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 11 2018, 16:13 PM 

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Gravemaskin wrote:
player activity is sort of a pre-requisite to running the whole thing because without players Amia has no purpose.

Exactly the point being made by myself and others here.

Like you said, we're low on devs, in part, because "player count is down", and we should be comporting ourselves, the whole community, "in a manner that makes them attractive [to] DM or Dev candidates". Holding onto a dying platform when there is another option is not the way to do that.

Gravemaskin wrote:
I didn't say the ONLY thing you can do is to log in and play, I also said that you could apply to be a dev, if you have the skillset, time and patience to donate to the server.

Okay. So, two options? Either know coding (and be willing to still learn the unique and delicate interlocking patchwork of fixes) and volunteer 100's of hours, or play and hope for the best? Pardon, I thought there was more to building a server. Like... builders, for one.

Again, you're really just saying 'it's impossible'.

Gravemaskin wrote:
If we wanted to solve it with money, we'd also need between 60-100 USD per hour, which is unrealistic as we don't get in enough donations to cover monthly operating costs.

That isn't what I meant. But costs might be a hurdle. For example, if the next version were to be hosted on rental linux server, to bring us in line with, apparently, every other NWN server out there.

Gravemaskin wrote:
Here it sounds like you're saying that one of the reasons not to play is a lack of devs to create new conetnt, but then say Amia needs to move to EE which needs hundreds of dev hours of work.. That's sort of contradictory, yeah we're low on devs & staff right now because the player count is down & people get fed up, busy with RL or burnt out. If the problem is to be solved, we need a playerbase to recruit from, which means active players who conduct themselves in a manner that makes them attractive as DM or Dev candidates. As for leto requests taking time, that's because it requires remotely connecting to the server and fiddling around with things there, if stuff is taking long you can bump it either on the forums or by nudging a DM ingame. If they know how and are free, then generally stuff can get done if it's okayed. Also requests also generally don't get done & put on hold if the player has been gone for a while.


Nope, I'm echoing you, saying we don't have devs. And I'm saying /some version/ of Amia /should/ move to EE, to attract more players, more devs, more community. To put us in a position where those things can be found again, rather than languishing in the dark corner that the OG NWN community has become. Like you said, "If the problem is to be solved, we need a playerbase to recruit from", and what, other than hoping, is being done towards that? That player base is /exactly/ what EE is offering the possibility of.

I'm aware of why things take a long time. Not specifically for LETOs, as those were generally fairly quick before, but in general, because, yanno, we're adults and have lives. I've bumped my topic a few times. DMs in game are usually fairly busy, and working on things more important. I wasn't trying to be a pain in the ass, or demand attention, just pointing out examples of issues that are happening. And, unless you mean that you ignore simple requests of players that were previously gone for awhile, I wasn't. I've been logging in nearly every day. Playing for hours. Active on forums. Etc. I logged back in the moment I got internet back after a few years without. I even left all the Amia stuff installed, staring at me from my desktop, waiting on the day I could log back in. Trying to get my accounts merged, the request at the top of the LETO forum, for months and months, has admittedly colored that return though. I'm certainly not saying I need devs, and custom made stuff, to play one Amia (I've never even made a request for any, nor had any non-coding request granted), but it's indicative of a problem.

I'd rather play Amia on vanilla NWN than watch it hold onto the scripts and uniqueness built for it over the years to keep it alive, if holding onto those bits and pieces mean it's that much closer to dying. It doesn't get better from this point. EE trumps the GoG option.

StifterEL wrote:
If you do not even play on amia it's not like it's going to matter much if the server dies, the server dies nothing changes you still don't play on amia anyways.
What you are basicly saying is Amia isn't good enough right now for me to play on it, fix it so I can come and play and to be honest it's getting kind of old.
The suggestion Draco came with if it can be done is an amazing solution to the problem. It's risk free and it gives us access to the EE playerbase.

Hi. That's not what I said. As stated above, I've been logging in daily. I'm not demanding Amia 'fix it for me', I'm trying to convince the community I've taken part in for year and years, with a temporary break, to move forward and improve things for everyone. Amia is still installed. I've not deleted my characters. I'm not quitting. I'm trying to work towards solutions that don't involve it dying. The servers I actually find people on are getting more of my current attention however. I wouldn't even be posting here if I were just quitting.

I'm sorry you feel this is "getting kind of old", but the people talking about this aren't demanding a fix, they are trying to help the community. We ALL want a bigger server population, and to see Amia doing well for years to come, right?

StifterEL wrote:
Well the experienced DM team etc doesn't exactly show up on the server list now does it? The only players we'd get are those that acutaly research Amia.
And why would anyone look up a server with less than 10 people on when Arelith has 100+ people online? We had the same problem before EE
and I don't see it magicaly getting fixed just because we move to EE.

For the same reason they log into other servers with 10 people? To check it out?
Or maybe they saw the hak, and thought it looked cool. That's how people browse the Steam Workshop. Just like the old NWVault (only easier).
Or maybe they found a steam group for the server. Comments players made about the server. People that mentioned the server in comments. About how cool the DM staff was, that there WAS even a DM staff. A lot of the other servers currently don't have that. Or have crappy ones that don't know the DM screen like ours do. We could even leave reviews on the game itself talking about our server. We could poke out Steam friends to join us.

That's the point. There's players looking for servers on steam because of EE. That's where the playerbase is. There's not many finding old NWN servers, because there's no place for them to look into them unless they know exactly what they are looking for already.

And yes, that thing Sinfar is doing would be a good option as well... but I'm pretty sure that was brought up before, and repeatedly the answer was that it doesn't work. I've heard a couple similar rumors of people connecting to NWN servers with EE, but if that worked, there wouldn't be any issue. There's an issue, so apparently that doesn't work. I don't know the technical side, but I'm hearing far more often that it doesn't work. If EE players can connect to the server, it has for all useful intents and purposes migrated to EE.

The sinfar page talking about it ( https://forum.sinfar.net/viewtopic.php?t=16285 ) says one can just direct connect with the EE client. I've tried direct connecting to Amia through EE, and that doesn't work. Sinfar built their own client loader, and NWNX extender(/plugin?), which I think is greek for either what Amia has done with our custom built windows NWNX, or something that does the same thing that our solution did. Such a solution would require dev hours too.

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StifterEL
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 11 2018, 16:38 PM 

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I think the problem still remains that even if we were to make the change to EE, we have noone to build the new server. The whole server would most likely have to be built completly from scratch.
Which would take many hours, without devs to build a EE server we're stuck with what we got. And so inscreasing our current population to attract potential devs seems to be our only option.

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Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 11 2018, 17:28 PM 

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Lascer wrote:
I'm sorry you feel this is "getting kind of old", but the people talking about this aren't demanding a fix, they are trying to help the community. We ALL want a bigger server population, and to see Amia doing well for years to come, right?


+1

Lascer wrote:
The sinfar page talking about it ( https://forum.sinfar.net/viewtopic.php?t=16285 ) says one can just direct connect with the EE client. I've tried direct connecting to Amia through EE, and that doesn't work. Sinfar built their own client loader, and NWNX extender(/plugin?), which I think is greek for either what Amia has done with our custom built windows NWNX, or something that does the same thing that our solution did. Such a solution would require dev hours too.


Amia hasn't been setup for it yet so of course it wont work right now. I've downloaded the Sinfar hak on steam and played on their 1.69 version through my EE. There was a little server in the EE server list with 0 players. You have to log into there, talk to the captain on the boat and he'll port you to the main 1.69 server.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 11 2018, 20:37 PM 

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Quote:
I'd rather play Amia on vanilla NWN than watch it hold onto the scripts and uniqueness built for it over the years to keep it alive, if holding onto those bits and pieces mean it's that much closer to dying. It doesn't get better from this point. EE trumps the GoG option.


That's not even Amia then. That's just the setting. Which, at that point, is an alternate reality Arelith. With none of the bells and whistles. I can understand your passion for seeing the game world continue onto this new platform, whatever the cost, but I don't think that's a viable or wanted option for anyone else. Definitely not for me. What made me choose Amia over Arelith, in addition to our perspective and administrative differences, was that uniqueness. Putting a vanilla version of Amia on EE isn't going to attract anyone, thus no larger playerbase to recruit from, thus no more Devs or interest, and ultimately a waste of even what time it would take to rip a version of the server out to it. And also, keep in mind, without the NWNX support(since we wouldn't be re-coding things or Linux NWNX), most of our drops, spawns, and loot would not work. So in addition to taking those back to some vanilla-compatible form, what we would be presenting is not even a working version of what we would be trying to attract people to. Believe me, we all get it, but when people are telling you what is and what isn't feasible, it's not because they haven't also looked at these very same options. "What if"-ing comes a lot easier than actually seeing what actions can be followed through on, in a realistic sense. I know you're not "demanding," but pressing for certain options, ones that most of our folk in the know are saying have no realistic chance, isn't exactly helping either.

In any and all cases, the gateway option seems to be the best hope at the moment. Give the people who are exploring that option the time to focus and actually explore that one magic bullet before we go to the extremes of planning on people that we don't have to do work that we don't yet understand. That's my $0.02.

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Lascer
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 11 2018, 22:31 PM 

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Dark Immolation wrote:
That's not even Amia then. That's just the setting. Which, at that point, is an alternate reality Arelith. With none of the bells and whistles. I can understand your passion for seeing the game world continue onto this new platform, whatever the cost, but I don't think that's a viable or wanted option for anyone else. Definitely not for me. What made me choose Amia over Arelith, in addition to our perspective and administrative differences, was that uniqueness. Putting a vanilla version of Amia on EE isn't going to attract anyone, thus no larger playerbase to recruit from, thus no more Devs or interest, and ultimately a waste of even what time it would take to rip a version of the server out to it.


I wouldn't expect it to STAY vanilla. A mind towards mechanical improvements and uniqueness is part of the perspective and administrative differences.

Dark Immolation wrote:
And also, keep in mind, without the NWNX support(since we wouldn't be re-coding things or Linux NWNX), most of our drops, spawns, and loot would not work. So in addition to taking those back to some vanilla-compatible form, what we would be presenting is not even a working version of what we would be trying to attract people to.


Drops, spawns, and loot do however work in NWN, and still within EE. You are presenting two extreme options (100's of dev hours to port over current Amia 100%, or zero effort made to create an interesting EE server) as the only possibilities. This is simply not the case. That's basically what I've been saying the whole time here. Just like I said before, where the only options being presented are to offer coding skills and 100's of hours, or log in as a player and shut up about any switch. People willing to rebuild the module, without advanced coding skills, might be more feasible. There have always been more people willing to play with the toolset than the ability to code for it.

Dark Immolation wrote:
Believe me, we all get it, but when people are telling you what is and what isn't feasible, it's not because they haven't also looked at these very same options. "What if"-ing comes a lot easier than actually seeing what actions can be followed through on, in a realistic sense. I know you're not "demanding," but pressing for certain options, ones that most of our folk in the know are saying have no realistic chance, isn't exactly helping either.

In any and all cases, the gateway option seems to be the best hope at the moment. Give the people who are exploring that option the time to focus and actually explore that one magic bullet before we go to the extremes of planning on people that we don't have to do work that we don't yet understand. That's my $0.02.


I'm certainly not saying not to try that option. Like I said, if it allows EE people to connect, it's essentially switching over. The difference between an advanced NWN server that EE players can connect to, and a EE server are academic at best, if not purely semantic.

I suppose if there is no 'realistic chance', I'll just go play on one of the modules thrown up with zero coding changes, while I build my own. Yanno, that thing you're saying is impossible. There's currently about 150 servers doing that impossible thing (including the ones that have coding changes, I was just counting the server list), while we are saying we are victim to a choice made 10 years ago and there's no possibility of anything else.

Sinfar's 'we want to wait for a stable EE' is a far more reasonable position than 'it's just impossible, so unless the impossible happens- no', because it's at least recognizing the path to move forward, even if they don't actually intend on going through with that ever.

StifterEL wrote:
I think the problem still remains that even if we were to make the change to EE, we have noone to build the new server. The whole server would most likely have to be built completly from scratch.
Which would take many hours, without devs to build a EE server we're stuck with what we got. And so inscreasing our current population to attract potential devs seems to be our only option.


You know you are arguing that the server is already dead here, right?

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StifterEL
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 11 2018, 23:02 PM 

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Lascer wrote:
You know you are arguing that the server is already dead here, right?


No that's not what I am saying at all. Like I mentioned in an earlier post from what I've seen we've actualy gotten a few new players on the server. There are still active players, events beeing run and there's alot of activity on the discord servers too.
If we could get our inactive players to log back in I think the player numbers would be surprisingly decent. Infact Dark immolation said what I was trying to pretty well.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 11 2018, 23:04 PM 

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Dude, you're reading things into what I'm saying that I am not saying at all, and it's really coming off as combative rather than helpful. I'll chalk it up to it being my interpretation of it, rather than the intention. We have one Dev currently and risk-reward is a factor. I literally never said impossible in my explanation. Let's try not to strawman each other.

Quote:
Drops, spawns, and loot do however work in NWN, and still within EE.


Alright, I'll try to demonstrate what I mean here. Yes, we can upload the module to EE. Spawns won't work. Spawns do work in vanilla, but that constitutes going back into each area and placing down encounters. In each area. All over again. It's not an instantaneous process. Not to mention the other things that, like spawns, would have to be made from ground up to even move through the gameworld.

TormakSaber wrote:
I could tell you right now that the "game would load" (POSSIBLY), but what you would expect of Amia simply would not work. Spawns would not work, loot would not drop, shops would be broken, weather scripts wouldn't work, none of the dev crit or custom feat or spellhooks would function, dynamic areas wouldn't work, the list goes on.

at best you'd be able to log in? You might not even get into Cordor.


Making a EE version of Amia, however mundane, is essentially making a new server. With one Dev. Which is a full time thing itself, and so would leave little time to fix current server issues or even approach the prospect of actually "porting" the complete Amia. Again, no one is saying anything is impossible, and trying to make it seem like anyone here has anything but the best intentions for our server is really off-putting. Just because I'm not agreeing with your particular suggestion doesn't mean anyone's given up or is asking anyone to "shut up." I'm saying you know what those other servers who are putting up "no change" versions of their server probably have? More than one guy helping to do it, who is occasionally here.

If you really want to change that prospect, to see if other people will help, you could petition help on the beamdog forums, or maybe Reddit, or try to become a Dev yourself. No one's offering two extremes here; it's a simple question of "is there someone here to press buttons" or not. Our answer right now is "occasionally."

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Lascer
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 12 2018, 2:39 AM 

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Dark Immolation wrote:
Dude, you're reading things into what I'm saying that I am not saying at all, and it's really coming off as combative rather than helpful. I'll chalk it up to it being my interpretation of it, rather than the intention. We have one Dev currently and risk-reward is a factor. I literally never said impossible in my explanation. Let's try not to strawman each other.


You didn't say it was impossible, but you are rolling with the current explanation, which is:

Gravemaskin wrote:
Creating or not creating a EE version of Amia has nothing to do with wants or not, we do not have the devs to do it & we don't have the player count to justify someone spending 100s of hours to get it done


Or, in other words, 'we can't'.

I'm sorry talking is considered combative (and I mean that more sincerely than it probably sounds). I'm literally talking about all the positives, rather than the negatives. The 'how do we do this', rather than the 'why we can't'. It's not like I'm the only one. We, or at least I, am only saying that we should do whatever it takes to involve ourselves in what active current community there is for NWN, because not being involve in that community is far worse, in all ways, than whatever it takes to be involved.

This isn't a new position, I know, I just re-read the entire thread. I suggest doing the same (Nav and Tormak's statements were particularly on point). Some of the technical points raised have been answered (and not all in good ways), but most of the 'facts of life' points are still valid. NWN has been dying, Amia has been dying, and EE is a lifeline to the whole of the NWN community, not just individual servers left struggling to survive. Left without the support of the company that made the game, each server HAD to do whatever it took to make it work, which is why we have the patchwork mess of weird, fragile, and amazing custom resources (basically EE versions of NWN for each individual server)... but now it's time to look at the whole community of NWN again, and to be part of it.

There's currently, not at peak times, over 1000 on EE (people that maybe haven't found PWs yet, the possible playerbase!), hundreds on PWs already, while there are about 100 listed on the NWScry listing as playing on old NWN PWs. And 6 on Amia.

Dark Immolation wrote:
Again, no one is saying anything is impossible, and trying to make it seem like anyone here has anything but the best intentions for our server is really off-putting. Just because I'm not agreeing with your particular suggestion doesn't mean anyone's given up or is asking anyone to "shut up." I'm saying you know what those other servers who are putting up "no change" versions of their server probably have? More than one guy helping to do it, who is occasionally here.


I'm not at all suggesting anyone has anything but the best intentions. I'm literally saying the opposite:
Lascer wrote:
We ALL want a bigger server population, and to see Amia doing well for years to come, right?


'No one' is telling anyone to shut up... but it's "getting old" for people to talk about this, and the suggested action is just to come play the server as is (unless you are the person able to volunteers the 100's of free coding hours).

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but there are multiple people in the thread.

Dark Immolation wrote:
If you really want to change that prospect, to see if other people will help, you could petition help on the beamdog forums, or maybe Reddit, or try to become a Dev yourself. No one's offering two extremes here; it's a simple question of "is there someone here to press buttons" or not. Our answer right now is "occasionally."


Again, multiple people on the thread, some of which are saying exactly that there are those two options. Play so we don't need to update, or volunteer the hours coding.

Has anyone asked if there ARE people willing to put in a more modest amount of work making a transition? Things that don't require coding skills? I have a feeling there are more of those, but the only option presented along those lines is phrased in such requirements that no one is going to bite, on top of the defeatist perception. Even, to reference things I posted below, "we are waiting for a windows compatible NWNX release" (which, to be fair, was mentioned once in a an off hand, 'who knows?' manner) would be a better response than 'volunteer 100's of coding hours'. It's not even necessarily the things being said, but the way it is.

And, again, just to be clear, I'm not saying Amia needs to update for me, I'm saying it needs to update to survive. It needs to be involved in the EE community in some way (hey, did you know someone uploaded a "amia headpack" mod to the workshop? It's not a good version).

Is there possibility of hosting a third server, not connected (or not currently connected) to the others, for EE? So we can get 'something' up and running, to encourage people that might want to help towards that effort help towards that effort? Something that says Amia isn't just going to languish in a forgotten corner? Something that gets us involved with the growing/returning community? Otherwise /this post/, repeating 'we just can't do it', is the /only/ involvement Amia has in the next wave of NWN community.

And, to pull out this gem that might have been (/apparently was) overlooked, from page three, the link to the Sinfar people talking about connecting to old NWN servers through EE... from November: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/6 ... ee-servers

It seems Sinfar's client extender is a Linux based thing, so it may not be very useful for us.

Possible useful quote from that thread:
The Guy Working on the NWNX EE stuff wrote:
- If any other servers want personal attention from me, just contact me on Discord: Liareth#9765. I'll do what I can to help you migrate.


Also, the project code for NWNXEE, which still supposedly has plans for windows support, but has no timeline for it (it currently suggests running a linux emulator, is that an option to start working on that third EE server I just asked about?): https://github.com/nwnxee/unified

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Lost_Izalith
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 12 2018, 3:17 AM 

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Ðraco wrote:
Amia hasn't been setup for it yet so of course it wont work right now. I've downloaded the Sinfar hak on steam and played on their 1.69 version through my EE. There was a little server in the EE server list with 0 players. You have to log into there, talk to the captain on the boat and he'll port you to the main 1.69 server.


This is slightly disheartening. Getting the server into the revived serverlists would potentially be great in and of itself, just for the sake of putting it in front of new players (and maybe old ones) but I hadn't considered that the server in the list itself wouldn't accurately reflect the players online. A 0 player server is usually pretty widely ignored. Still though, this is the best solution I've seen so far. It'd be fantastic if we could rig it up.


 
      
Budly
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 13 2018, 2:04 AM 

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Lost_Izalith wrote:
Ðraco wrote:
Amia hasn't been setup for it yet so of course it wont work right now. I've downloaded the Sinfar hak on steam and played on their 1.69 version through my EE. There was a little server in the EE server list with 0 players. You have to log into there, talk to the captain on the boat and he'll port you to the main 1.69 server.


This is slightly disheartening. Getting the server into the revived serverlists would potentially be great in and of itself, just for the sake of putting it in front of new players (and maybe old ones) but I hadn't considered that the server in the list itself wouldn't accurately reflect the players online. A 0 player server is usually pretty widely ignored. Still though, this is the best solution I've seen so far. It'd be fantastic if we could rig it up.


That be cool, I wonder if one could somehow place a bot for each player to mark there being "players" online and a information board how it works.

I heard Sinfars number is highly inflated with bots so it is not uncommon. :x

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Lutra
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 13 2018, 19:44 PM 



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hmmm..I am curious about the possibility to establish a gateway especially if it can instantly download the content that is needed to play Amia. While it may hold 0 players on the server list everyone who heard a bit about Amia might as well try it out or just read the server's description at least which can contain the necessary information on it.

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RaveN
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 13 2018, 19:49 PM 

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This problem cannot be oversimplified. Looking at Sinfar is not a good representation. Sinfar was built in Linux and their nwserver runs on EE. Even the "portal" you're referring to is Linux only. It's actually just a creative turn of use of their server sharding which allowed it to be ~200 players player cap.

They released their client source code only, which doesn't help the problem that our server doesn't run on EE or the fact that we dont even have a client (so why bring that up?). Ultimately, since Amia is windows and there is no NWNX plugin equivalents to what we run, nor does it even work for the windows nwserver, you can't fool the game. I tried spawning the server. No dice, just crashes because obviously the memory addresses are all completely different from what Legacy Terra/Windows NWNX plugins hook into. The NWNX plugins which provide many API calls to Amia, simply need to be rebuilt, then recompiled for windows. This is something that is an enormous amount of work for which a volunteer is not what is needed; but someone who can actually DO it (both skill, and time). Even then, you're talking at least a hundred hours, I'd say. It's something as specific as reverse engineering / decompiling using OllyDbg or similar, to find exact memory addresses for things like True Seeing, or Devastating Critical, which have all changed since the server was recompiled... and it even might change again. Amia has too many "overrides" and EE is a living product now and thus its almost guaranteed that the nwserver needs to be recompiled each update which might mess up any overrides.

Alternatively, you could try using the linux API's for NWNX, and convert all the methods/funcs to using that, but that also will take a long time, and several features people love won't work, because they're Terra specific, as well as some character builds might just simply break altogether. Not to mention nobody has a linux environment to develop or test on.

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 13 2018, 21:36 PM 

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RaveN wrote:
This problem cannot be oversimplified. Looking at Sinfar is not a good representation. Sinfar was built in Linux and their nwserver runs on EE. Even the "portal" you're referring to is Linux only. It's actually just a creative turn of use of their server sharding which allowed it to be ~200 players player cap.

They released their client source code only, which doesn't help the problem that our server doesn't run on EE or the fact that we dont even have a client (so why bring that up?). Ultimately, since Amia is windows and there is no NWNX plugin equivalents to what we run, nor does it even work for the windows nwserver, you can't fool the game. I tried spawning the server. No dice, just crashes because obviously the memory addresses are all completely different from what Legacy Terra/Windows NWNX plugins hook into. The NWNX plugins which provide many API calls to Amia, simply need to be rebuilt, then recompiled for windows. This is something that is an enormous amount of work for which a volunteer is not what is needed; but someone who can actually DO it (both skill, and time). Even then, you're talking at least a hundred hours, I'd say. It's something as specific as reverse engineering / decompiling using OllyDbg or similar, to find exact memory addresses for things like True Seeing, or Devastating Critical, which have all changed since the server was recompiled... and it even might change again. Amia has too many "overrides" and EE is a living product now and thus its almost guaranteed that the nwserver needs to be recompiled each update which might mess up any overrides.

Alternatively, you could try using the linux API's for NWNX, and convert all the methods/funcs to using that, but that also will take a long time, and several features people love won't work, because they're Terra specific, as well as some character builds might just simply break altogether. Not to mention nobody has a linux environment to develop or test on.


This makes good sense, wish all my teachers at school when i was growing up explained things so well!

So basically we need to see if someone does a port of NWNX for EE for a windows based server and then see if someone or i'm assuming a group of people update, maintain and fix many of the items Amia uses? That is... not only a lot of work but also some very big IFs! From my understanding there is no real push to fix all this within the community as a whole, those that want the support EE will get are switching and building there while those who are happy with the mods and working functionality already in place will stick with what they know... there really doesn't seem to be any middle ground in this one.

Fixing a server to work on a system it wasn't designed on or for is likely to be alot of work, add to this the very real chance that every time the new game version is updated it will break something which the ported server needs... the work would be on going. This leaves you with two possible avenues, stay as you are and hope people still come, rebuild the world from the ground up having stripped out all the added content and start over afresh with the new as/when/and if people start modding for the new game version. :?

Often finding a work around for a problem doesn't rightly fix the underlying issue, it merely dresses it up so it isn't as easy to see. Its a good one that is for sure.

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Liareth
 
PostPosted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 1:15 AM 



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I've been following this forum thread for a while now, and just wanted to post real quick to clear a couple things up. If you don't know me, I wrote NWNX:EE, and before that I was an admin on Arelith for a couple years.

walnutboy wrote:
As for the nwnx for windows, i did a search on Beamdogs own forum and it looks like they have no real interest in adding support for it... at this time, and indeed all work towards a nwnx windows release is seemingly done by one person who is helping Beamdog at present but is doing work on nwnx as a side project when they have both the time and the motivation! Once again work on making the game work for most of the servers what would use it does seem to be placed solely on the shoulders of the community which already has the opinion of why fix it again if it currently works for them. I don't know the technical aspects of it but i'm guessing it was easier for Beamdog to do the support for the Linux based system than the Windows one... at least in my understanding of what i read about the issues faced by converting and checking all the code.

Path of least resistance to yield a profitable fruit i guess.


NWNX:EE is a project that I started for fun before NWN:EE was even a thing, just because I didn't like how the code of the original NWNX worked and thought I could do better. It just so happens that the way I wrote it was very friendly to regular server updates (even though there weren't any at the time!), so when the NWNX team were told about NWN:EE early on in the process, we ended up just using my thing. Beamdog has nothing to do with it. Their only involvement is giving me access to NWN's source code so I could make changes to the base game as I needed.

walnutboy wrote:
So basically we need to see if someone does a port of NWNX for EE for a windows based server and then see if someone or i'm assuming a group of people update, maintain and fix many of the items Amia uses? That is... not only a lot of work but also some very big IFs! From my understanding there is no real push to fix all this within the community as a whole, those that want the support EE will get are switching and building there while those who are happy with the mods and working functionality already in place will stick with what they know... there really doesn't seem to be any middle ground in this one.


I think the requirement is less "for Windows" and more "remake Amia's custom plugins". Hosting Amia or any other server on Linux is pretty easy. The main difficulty that you guys will face is porting all of your plugins to NWNX:EE. Due to the nature of how NWNX works, no code from 1.69 can possibly run on 1.74. The old code was very tightly coupled to the memory addresses and layout of the old binary, written under the assumption that there would never be a new version of the server released. The Windows vs Linux debate is actually not the issue at all, because even if there was a version of NWNX:EE that supported Windows, you'd still be in exactly the same situation. The only way to get that old functionality back to is to rewrite all of Amia's custom plugins plugins from scratch. Keeping them updated from that point is free / low cost, due to the design of NWNX:EE. The initial porting is where the pain lies.


 
      
eeeertgb
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 16 2018, 21:09 PM 

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I have read this entire thread and feel compelled to post a quick message of praise to those that run Amia.
I really appreciate the calm, professional responses you have consistently put in this thread. A lot of players seem to have forgotten that you are also players with a huge passion for the game...and feelings too!

It is clear to me that there are technical and more, importantly, resource issues that can't simply be 'wished away'.
I would love to go the EE route & to have more players... but I don't have the skills or time to help you with it and so I have no right to expect / demand that from others.

There seems to be a feeling of entitlement in some of the posts which I don't understand. It is good that so many players are passionate but there really doesn't seem to be a silver bullet. Amia is not a business - it is a server run by a team of fanatical players. No more, no less.

Yes, Arelith uses the Linux system which means it is hugely advantaged or Amia. We really can't hold this against the Amia team for being short-sighted.

I'm not trying to rile anyone here, but I really feel frustrated for the team who have made the situation very clear and I'm sure are still investigating what can be done.

I sincerely thank the team and will continue to drop in when I can.


 
      
The Little Dragon
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 17 2018, 6:32 AM 



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What is the remaining players worked together and did it themselves?

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angst360
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 17 2018, 9:09 AM 



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Joined: 10 Jul 2014

Yeah, lets all use the precious time we set aside to occasionally login and just transition from a community of players into a community of coders.

We could even drag the process out as we each decide how we want to change our individual assigned parts of the code base... we could turn the player forum into a Coders Forum and have a place to argue about changes we wish to make to the tasks we were assigned, you know, since everyone is too busy coding to actually play.

With a lot of hard work, in 6 months this place might even be maxed out with 14 yrs olds who are more interested in griefing than roleplay.


Sarcasm aside, perhaps people who only worry about radically changing the server, rather than just enjoying it for what it is (while it is here), should probably just move on to something else...

But this thread is great... it's like that ex-girlfriend who calls to tell you how great her life is 6 months after you broke up with her.... and the same thoughts keep running through my head, "If its so great, why are you here telling me about it and not out there living it..."


 
      
Darkness_Rising
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 17 2018, 17:27 PM 



Player

Joined: 26 Jan 2018

I know this may sound silly, could we hire someone professionally to do this? I'm sure a decent few would donate towards it if we had a price in mind.


 
      
Lutra
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 17 2018, 19:39 PM 



DM

Joined: 13 Feb 2008

For 100s of work hours? I doubt that we can actually call in for donations especially considering what Gravemaskin wrote regarding the current funds. Right now there are only 2-3 people donating and that includes server host in which case I doubt that we can assemble 5-10 thousand (minimum) dollars for a profession to cover costs. Not to mention the legalities around that transaction. There is also the issue of precedents when this was mentioned in the past and the reaction of the community was well bellow civil. Even if a few would be willing to muster some funds I doubt that we could assemble the money and even then the success is not guaranteed. It is either volunteer work or nothing I'm afraid as it has been.

If choose to move on to EE then we would have to migrate to a new server which will definitely require money. In that case we will let the community know but that is far too early to say.

The Little Dragon wrote:
What is the remaining players worked together and did it themselves?


Yeah well, it would be great if some came forward with relevant skills but only few (less than 2) showed interest. Furthermore we would require someone who would/could organize the workload that the devs have to do. Now, we don't have anyone right now who would do that. Even those who know the current settings either gone or not willing to take on this workload.
The people who volunteer for this would have to familiarize themselves with our system first and custom stuff we have to be able to get the idea. That will also require days/weeks to study.

We (the team) will probably not invest on our own into a vague probability of success. Seeing the player spread of NWN EE on Beamdog's list also implies that the player spread is not much bigger than in the case of the generic version NWN right now. If the community comes forth saying that they want it and willing to contribute to the work if they can or willing to recruit others to help and so on then yeah. But that will require a significant number of people to muster themselves.

So there are three possibilities:
- We remain here as we are now
- A messiah will come and sets our EE transition up.
- The crowd will mobilize itself and get help from every corner of the planet and then we might be able to do it together.


angst360 wrote:
But this thread is great... it's like that ex-girlfriend who calls to tell you how great her life is 6 months after you broke up with her.... and the same thoughts keep running through my head, "If its so great, why are you here telling me about it and not out there living it..."


btw...this made me giggle.

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Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 18 2018, 6:54 AM 

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Sounds like we need more people stepping up to help. It realyl would be great if we had more Dev-like people in the community. Or even people that knew ones that woudl want to help, heh. Keep I mind, I have no idea what the Dev team current size is. Hell, I want to come back not even as a player but as a Dev to try and see if we can sort this shit out. Moving to Linux would be a hell of an investment of time, but it could actually work. The move to Linux was something we talked about as a team, uh, a couple years ago? I know it was because of server stability issues (which we corrected regardless). But, even if we stayed on 1.69 moving to a Linux could be a boon. I think it was said before that coding for Linux NWN is a lot easier than Windows (or, at least, that Windows NWN coding is messy). So it could be that, in the end, all we do is move to Linux. But idk.

Unfortunately I am not even a coder. I did simple script overhaul/changes and area fixes, not the scale of what we need. But I would be willing to try, time permitting. I'll think about it some more, I just hate to say 'I'll help!' and then not be productive.

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The Little Dragon
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 18 2018, 7:17 AM 



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Joined: 08 Nov 2016

No start from scratch. Rebuild it into small parts, newer and better. Lose the coding itself and redo everything. All we really need is a map and a dm to run things at this point.

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freaxxshow1338
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 18 2018, 11:29 AM 

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Class changes would be lost like that.
Spell Changes would be lost.
Feat changes would be lost.

That alone is a big deal man.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 18 2018, 12:19 PM 

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freaxxshow1338 wrote:
Class changes would be lost like that.
Spell Changes would be lost.
Feat changes would be lost.

That alone is a big deal man.


I rather lose that than lose the server.

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Lost_Izalith
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 18 2018, 13:29 PM 

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Budly wrote:
I rather lose that than lose the server.


That basically is losing the server. Without the things that make Amia uniquely Amia, we might as well just all migrate to a completely different vanilla server and carry on from there.


 
      
Budly
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 18 2018, 13:31 PM 

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Lost_Izalith wrote:
Budly wrote:
I rather lose that than lose the server.


That basically is losing the server. Without the things that make Amia uniquely Amia, we might as well just all migrate to a completely different vanilla server and carry on from there.


It won't be the same going to another server. But sticking to a sinking ship is not a solution. We could very much see Amia 2 in NWN:EE. Same crew, same mentality of how it should look, same DMs, Same Devs, Same players if most stick around.

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Lutra
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 18 2018, 18:43 PM 



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Joined: 13 Feb 2008

Budly wrote:
freaxxshow1338 wrote:
Class changes would be lost like that.
Spell Changes would be lost.
Feat changes would be lost.

That alone is a big deal man.


I rather lose that than lose the server.


We would loose a lot more than that. In fact, some of those things are Hak related that aren't necessarily in danger in the event of a transition. Every link with the website, the database, php, some of the DM tools that we currently have, the database (plus the tools that are linked to it IG), all the lua things we had, spawns would be gone except from the extremely old areas, dynamic areas would be broken too. That's basically the whole infrastructure that operates the server right now as it is.

The Little Dragon wrote:
No start from scratch. Rebuild it into small parts, newer and better. Lose the coding itself and redo everything. All we really need is a map and a dm to run things at this point.


We are not just talking about the areas, broken feats or the haks, but what is behind the server to keep it operational. We would have to rebuild that from 0 and until then we cannot operate the server at all while it is not done. We cannot release portions of it on EE and go piece by piece because it is not how it works. It is either done entirely or it isn't. There is no partial solution as it wouldn't work or it would be unsafe to operate it.

Budly wrote:
It won't be the same going to another server. But sticking to a sinking ship is not a solution. We could very much see Amia 2 in NWN:EE. Same crew, same mentality of how it should look, same DMs, Same Devs, Same players if most stick around.


Big words, even greater sentiments and very dramatic too. However, until we get real and constructive help from the community, the whole EE thing falls into the "not worth it" category.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 18 2018, 18:51 PM 

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I said again and again I would help but I have not the talent needed.

The amount of players right now is not healthy. And there is probably no way of turning it around. Especially not with fucking NWN:EE laying there, sucking up the playerbase.

A solution is working on Amia 2 while you still keep Amia 1 going. It is hard to shake out people who have the know how in such a small community but many lurk. Must be someone who want to help.

If I not wrong, was there not a guy here working on Amia 2 in NWN 2 many years ago? I think both you and POTM had NWN2 plans that never came to fruitation and it was like1 person working on both projects.

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karajix101
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 18 2018, 19:18 PM 

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Not sure if you are still looking for people, but I know my way around toolset, I am really good at making creatures / gear. But I can make areas decently and I know how to script somewhat as well, so if you need help, I can be of some assistance I am sure. I have been a dev before so.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 18 2018, 21:56 PM 

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karajix101 wrote:
Not sure if you are still looking for people, but I know my way around toolset, I am really good at making creatures / gear. But I can make areas decently and I know how to script somewhat as well, so if you need help, I can be of some assistance I am sure. I have been a dev before so.


This guy right here! *mega points* NWN EE or not! You people could always use some extra hands!

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 19 2018, 1:07 AM 

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Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

If there's one silver lining to this, it seems that all the EE hullabaloo has brought back a few older players, if only momentarily and on the forums. As said in past threads, it seems that we have a fair amount of people lurking on the forums. I still believe much of what we have is a feedback loop of: see few people on -> don't want to log in because few people on. In defense of that, it's understandable to a degree. I've encountered it myself. Even if I log on and set up in Tarkuul where my PC normally would be, the chance of a "passerby" to interact with is small. But, I also feel like our DMs working on a new, inclusive narrative as they said they are will help everyone sort of get together, in one way or another. In addition to several current player-run efforts that are gathering up people.

Has any headway been made on gateway thing? Anyone know devs and such from Sinfar that can give us some insight on how to set that up? I feel it's been made clear at this point that the actual move to EE is prohibitively complicated and compounded by a lack of able hands; it doesn't mean we have to miss out on all of the revived NWN interest, though. Not being able to see a player count doesn't really bother me and I don't think it means as much as people think it might. Especially if we label the server as "GATEWAY" and have a max player size of say 10. It's just an additional Entry Room after all, it doesn't need to be huge. People will stop by, and if they like what they're seeing/hearing, they can check it out. Player counts are attractive, but if people are new to NWN, or at least newly returned, they're probably going to at least try hopping around a few places, at least for the first few months of having the game.

I'm not 100% sure, but it may even be possible to update a server's name every so often? I remember us doing that a few times, having the server say "Closed for Testing" or "Closed for Plot in progress". If not that, maybe a couple copies of the entry module that say (Server 10/65, 20/65, ... Server FULL) to give a general ball park of the current player count. I feel like that will involve new database stuff, but it might be an option. I'm vastly unfamiliar with the back end of NWN mechanics, however.

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The Little Dragon
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 19 2018, 5:58 AM 



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Joined: 08 Nov 2016

We've already lost quality rpers from stagnation. If I remember correctly, even if many think he is a dick, Tormak still can rp a character really well. And what about others, who only come to drop flowers at a grave? Amia IS dead already, with coding and all. It is a shell that people sit in, in bendir, to be specific, and do absolutely nothing. What do we have to lose other than coding no one knows anything about? We'll be able to DO something with it once its finished.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 19 2018, 8:02 AM 

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I mean, it ain't dead to the people still bothering to put in the effort here. And it's always really a drag when people come back and tell the people that are here "you know you're dead, right?". It's not helpful or enjoyable for anyone. It's like the "ex girlfriend" thing someone said above.

I don't believe there is anything stopping anyone from making an "Amia EE" in name only, the same way there was an effort when NWN2 came out. But continually suggesting "you got nothing to lose/leave this behind" at the people who obviously like what they have isn't convincing anyone. Not everyone wants that. I dont want that. Maybe you can't understand that, and I get it, but not everyone wants to leave code, structure, PCs, etc in the past and sit around on a vanilla server, possibly with the people from Amia if they all buy EE, too.

The people who -can- do something are already doing it. But they're focusing on what makes sense as agreed upon between them. As much as the passion is appreciated I can't help but feel so much of this thread is people shouting "Do something?!" at a group of volunteer firemen who are already working their ass off just to have a glimmer of hope. Then critiquing them for approaching it in a measured, transparent way, rather than diving balls-first into a fiery abyss that bodes no real chance of success. That is to say, at this point, if anyone wants something more done, or done differently, it's kind of on you to do something. Or at least try to. And if you have no understanding on how to build or host a PW server on your own from the ground up, or hours upon hours to set one up(look, I'm raising my hand too), it's kind of odd to harp on others to do it. Not trying to pick on you in particular, Dragon, it's just that suggestions of "Why don't you guys just do X" kind of shows a lack of understanding the sheer amount if effort those actions require. I used to be in the same boat, when it came to scripting. Now I understand just enough to know how much I -don't- understand. :lol:

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freaxxshow1338
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 19 2018, 9:11 AM 

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Joined: 24 Jan 2017
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Dark Immolation wrote:
I mean, it ain't dead to the people still bothering to put in the effort here. And it's always really a drag when people come back and tell the people that are here "you know you're dead, right?". It's not helpful or enjoyable for anyone. It's like the "ex girlfriend" thing someone said above.

I don't believe there is anything stopping anyone from making an "Amia EE" in name only, the same way there was an effort when NWN2 came out. But continually suggesting "you got nothing to lose/leave this behind" at the people who obviously like what they have isn't convincing anyone. Not everyone wants that. I dont want that. Maybe you can't understand that, and I get it, but not everyone wants to leave code, structure, PCs, etc in the past and sit around on a vanilla server, possibly with the people from Amia if they all buy EE, too.

The people who -can- do something are already doing it. But they're focusing on what makes sense as agreed upon between them. As much as the passion is appreciated I can't help but feel so much of this thread is people shouting "Do something?!" at a group of volunteer firemen who are already working their ass off just to have a glimmer of hope. Then critiquing them for approaching it in a measured, transparent way, rather than diving balls-first into a fiery abyss that bodes no real chance of success. That is to say, at this point, if anyone wants something more done, or done differently, it's kind of on you to do something. Or at least try to. And if you have no understanding on how to build or host a PW server on your own from the ground up, or hours upon hours to set one up(look, I'm raising my hand too), it's kind of odd to harp on others to do it. Not trying to pick on you in particular, Dragon, it's just that suggestions of "Why don't you guys just do X" kind of shows a lack of understanding the sheer amount if effort those actions require. I used to be in the same boat, when it came to scripting. Now I understand just enough to know how much I -don't- understand. :lol:


What he said.

I tried Arelith. Terrible RP and your basically being told "You're nothing special". Seriously, people here complain there's no RP while hunting here?

I've looked into Sinfar and I think I have PTSD from it now.

I want Amia. Sure its high fantasy as FUCK and a cesspool of powerbuilds but... It's Amia. The place I fell in love with a year ago.

I think the only problem Amia has is the stupid standing around somewhere until something happens, but I can't for the life of me figure out a way to fix that because DMs cant run events 24/7 and if they did, people would probably start to ignore them.

I tried (and succeeded) with Peraga and Deva, involving people in their personal plot, people actually cared and did shit.

Make a new character and have a cool plot. Bend it to for what people wanna do. That works.

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Lost_Izalith
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 19 2018, 11:35 AM 

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Also, as an aside, when are we going to quit bashing Bendir as "the place where people stand and do nothing?" Because it isn't. It's the place people stand because it's active. Standing around and chatting, believe it or not, is still RP. Not all RP has to be world-shifting or event-driven. Sometimes it's just socializing and talking about what's been going on. Developing a personal story for the character and developing his or her relationships. It's not a negative thing, nor has it ever been. Bendir isn't sucking the life out of the server, it's all the life the server has left in it. Don't just complain it's there. Make an effort to join and start something, and don't get butthurt if no one wants to.


 
      
Budly
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 19 2018, 12:40 PM 

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Lost_Izalith wrote:
Also, as an aside, when are we going to quit bashing Bendir as "the place where people stand and do nothing?" Because it isn't. It's the place people stand because it's active. Standing around and chatting, believe it or not, is still RP. Not all RP has to be world-shifting or event-driven. Sometimes it's just socializing and talking about what's been going on. Developing a personal story for the character and developing his or her relationships. It's not a negative thing, nor has it ever been. Bendir isn't sucking the life out of the server, it's all the life the server has left in it. Don't just complain it's there. Make an effort to join and start something, and don't get butthurt if no one wants to.


I will probably never stop poking at Bendir in a both jokingly and serious way. Not because I hate it or because I want the last Bastion of activity gone. But because I remember a time when a harbour city was a hub and not the little hole I was mayor of. Even before the player base sank to 1-5 players from 15-20 it was Bendir being the active point. And I do not think it helped the server. I still love the place, I love all the little bastards and the activity there. It is just odd people stand at 3 carts and not inside the walls and so on. Mostly as it is now, Bendir get activity for the carts and for the above average active amount of players. The server is to big for the playerbase.

But do not think I do not love the little place.

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Lutra
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 19 2018, 13:22 PM 



DM

Joined: 13 Feb 2008

Budly wrote:
I said again and again I would help but I have not the talent needed.

The amount of players right now is not healthy. And there is probably no way of turning it around. Especially not with fucking NWN:EE laying there, sucking up the playerbase.

A solution is working on Amia 2 while you still keep Amia 1 going. It is hard to shake out people who have the know how in such a small community but many lurk. Must be someone who want to help.

If I not wrong, was there not a guy here working on Amia 2 in NWN 2 many years ago? I think both you and POTM had NWN2 plans that never came to fruitation and it was like1 person working on both projects.


EE is not sucking that many player away in fact far less people are playing it online than we expected it. I keep monitoring the playercount and the playerspread as per Beamdog's NWMaster and compare it with the regular NWNList and EE is only slightly better and the majority is on Arelith while other servers have 0-20 people in average. I have no numbers on Sinfar and those servers that aren't on the lists. Granted, after a certain amount of time it is fair to assume that only EE will be available in the stores.

As for Amia 2, Kung had an entire team working on it and it wasn't a 1 man project. It was a nice module centered around the village of Daggerford, the project vanished with him unfortunately.

Yeah if we begin to work on it, we will likely maintain Amia prior it is done.

karajix101 wrote:
Not sure if you are still looking for people, but I know my way around toolset, I am really good at making creatures / gear. But I can make areas decently and I know how to script somewhat as well, so if you need help, I can be of some assistance I am sure. I have been a dev before so.


We always look for people! Please send one of us a Dev app if you are interested to help!

The Little Dragon wrote:
We've already lost quality rpers from stagnation. If I remember correctly, even if many think he is a dick, Tormak still can rp a character really well. And what about others, who only come to drop flowers at a grave? Amia IS dead already, with coding and all. It is a shell that people sit in, in bendir, to be specific, and do absolutely nothing. What do we have to lose other than coding no one knows anything about? We'll be able to DO something with it once its finished.


We loose precious time of the free time of our life trying to figure it out based on a vague probability of success. I have and I will remind you again that this is not a business venture but we don't do this for a living but we are volunteers, using our own free time if and when we can. If we get enough coders/scripters who would be willing to do it then so be it but we don't.

Furthermore, I refuse any statement and doomsaying claiming that Amia is being dead. Amia is not dead or at least not yet. There are people on every day/night and there is at least one event happening almost every day. There are people investing hours of work on Amia still so I find these statements kinda insulting.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Has any headway been made on gateway thing?


Only that it is far more complicated than we imagined!

Lost_Izalith wrote:
Also, as an aside, when are we going to quit bashing Bendir as "the place where people stand and do nothing?" Because it isn't.


I would also add here (since we discussed it on Discord too) that the stereotypical Bendir RP about standing around the road is not actually the Bendir RP. The RP around Bendir is far deeper and more complex than it seems.


freaxxshow1338 wrote:
I tried Arelith. Terrible RP and your basically being told "You're nothing special". Seriously, people here complain there's no RP while hunting here?


I personally found that the "one of many" situation can be more relaxing than being an issue. I think some of that sentiment can be adopted here in terms of creating the story. Part of the reason why I think Amia is down is due to the request system and what we allow here. Other servers do not have that or at least not in the same way as we do. I have seen many people requesting uberspecial characters with awesome background. However, when that character didn't turn out to be as recognized by the other PCs they just decided to hang things up or leave Amia.
I am not saying that we should adopt that sentiment in it's entirety but adopting taking some of that sentiment in would be nice and might help the IC/OOC bonding of the community.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 19 2018, 13:28 PM 

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You have to give a game time. It can with time grow bigger. Not all of them boom directly and then decrease but go up with time as interest and word of mouth spreads.

EDIT: Also im getting very tired of the excuse of "This is not our job, this is freetime". Yes, yes it is your freetime. We heard it for 15 years. We know. This is also our freetime, and any other servers free time, No one is payed to do this. Unless someone makes so much Patreon money they can pay for their whole crew as full time jobs.

What is mostly insulting to me is people who just do not want to discuss it or proclaim Amia is doing well. Amia might not be dead but considering what it used to be, it is not doing well. The few souls left, yes who do this on their free time to keep it afloat are great individuals. I say nothing else. But I came myself with several pokes at you but non was even cared for.

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