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thunderbrush
 
PostPosted: Wed, May 16 2018, 6:01 AM 



Player

Joined: 12 Nov 2015
Location: The belly of the beast

The rules in PvP are quite clear to myself and most. Black and white. There is just one small problem. The person who initiates the conflict is often the one who backs out. Usually after they have been pulverized for piping off. I get the whole "good vs. evil" and acting in accordance with the dogma of your character, however if you lack the ability to back those words with actions, and you, the player knows your character doesn't have a shot in hell...you should accept this fact, and shut up. Words equal actions. Or die with some dignity in tact, knowing you kept it canon. Don't continue to spout jibes, knowing full well that there has to be an OOC resolution before organic rp can take place. This is a huge immersion break for me, and it makes playing polar good/evil characters boring. Your character dying and subsequently being OOC raised most of the time should not damage your actual ego. This is why you chose to be a chromatic, or paladin, or whatever. This is a violent setting and we are lacking a lot of the conflict that could be, because people are personally affronted when pixels get plastered. It will be ok. Make the OOC rez mandatory and lets get back to business. I know there are some players that don't like to pvp. For those folks, I understand, but that's OOC preference hamstringing IC interaction. This isn't so much of a rant, as I am curious to see how people feel about this and what the other perspectives are. Thanks for reading.

_________________
Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased


 
      
Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Wed, May 16 2018, 10:22 AM 

User avatar

DM

Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls

Not quite sure what point you're trying to make. is it that if someone keeps insulting your character but refuses to fight? If that's it, then yeah.. give them a warning to shut up or "man up" and if they don't, do what your character would. I've been in and seen plenty of situations where some mage is mouthing off at a barbarian and the situation is rather hostile, but after refusing to apologize, said mage starts casting spells(defensive spells can be seen as a hostile action, especially if that character has 0 spellcraft), that's them preparing for a fight and you can throw the first punch if needed (and probably should, since you most likely have an advantage over an unbuffed mage.)

Like I said, same goes for people mouthing off or badgering your character. If it's in line with your character for him to attack them after they verbally assault him or her and refuses to stand down, then do it after a clear warning is given to apologize or stop and said warning is ignored. It falls under the 4th principle of the PvP rules.
Quote:
4. IC Actions lead to IC Consequences. If you initiate a conflict (by insults or thievery, for example), you can't expect to get away with it. You cannot ignore other players' RP or declare it null.


You're even good to chase them down if they start fleeing without apologizing, due to the 8th rule under the technicalities.
Quote:
8. The above goes for fleeing from hostile situations: If you turn tail and run without a word to avoid IC consequence, you can expect to be stopped by any means possible. Always give others reasonable time to react with RP!


IC actions has IC consequences, and while that can mean your character will get killed for being an ass to someone, it can also mean that the authorities will chase down the one that killed you and punish them if any of the local laws were violated where you were. (actions justified according to the rules of Amia, aren't always justified in the eyes of other characters IC, which can lead to further consequences.)

Edit:

If there were OOC concerns about PvP or conflict situations, I recommend taking screenshots (Info on that here) and turning on logging for NWN. Then send both screenshots & logs to a DM if you'd like one of us to help resolve the conflict or review it.
To turn on logging, go into the nwnplayer.ini file in the game's installation directory. Under [Game Options] find ClientChatLogging=0 and change it to ClientChatLogging=1. If you want the log to include all info such as server messages and combat logs as well set ClientEntireChatWindowLogging=0 to ClientEntireChatWindowLogging=1(I personally use this, while you probably never need logs for anything but tells & messages it can be nice to log combat rolls and stuff for whatever reasons you might have, I sometimes use it to check how accurate the d20 rolls actually are because reasons). This will cause a log file to be created in the log folder of NWN called nwclientLog1.txt. It will get overridden if you restart your game, so using something to rotate logs is adviced.

I personally use a .bat script to rotate logs. It's simple and easy to use and doesn't have any dependencies.
Create a new text document, paste in the code below and then save it as whatever.bat and run it instead of the NWNMain when you want to play NWN.
If you want to have a .bat file that directly connects you to NWN instead of launching NWN normally, just replace START /w nwmain.exe with START /w nwmain.exe +connect 185.29.203.11:5121 for Amia A or START /w nwmain.exe +connect 185.29.203.11:5122 for Amia B.
You could also rename the log by changing "logs\NWNLOG%yy%-%mm%-%dd%_%hh%h%tt%m%ss%s.txt" to something like "logs\AmiaA%yy%-%mm%-%dd%_%hh%h%tt%m%ss%s.txt" & "logs\AmiaB%yy%-%mm%-%dd%_%hh%h%tt%m%ss%s.txt" if you wanted to use direct connect bat files to ensure AmiaA & B log activity is seperate for easier navigation, but I personally prefer to have all playerside logs saved as NWNLOG & all DM logs saved as DMCLOG.
Code:
START /w nwmain.exe
FOR /F "TOKENS=1-3 DELIMS=/ " %%a IN ("%date%") DO SET dd=%%a&SET mm=%%b&SET yy=%%c
FOR /F "TOKENS=1-3 DELIMS=:." %%a IN ("%time%") DO SET hh=%%a&SET tt=%%b&SET ss=%%c
COPY "logs\nwclientLog1.txt" "logs\NWNLOG%yy%-%mm%-%dd%_%hh%h%tt%m%ss%s.txt"

This code will open up a command window when you run NWN that copies the log file and renames it to NWNLOG-year-month-day-hour-minute-seconds.txt to ensure you have unique logs that never overwrite eachother. The command window will then close. if you close it before closing NWN, the log will be overwritten when you relaunch the game. I've been using this .bat script for yeaaaars now and currently have logs of ALL NWN activity dating back to early 2012. (Also have older logs going even further back on a backup drive somewhere). It's not often needed, think I've needed it once or twice for conflict situatons, but many more times than that to doublecheck stuff like info about things or what someone told my char and such to ensure I'm not misremembering or accidentally metagaming by mixing up which char was told what.. but it's a nice insurance policy to have, JUST IN CASE. Doesn't take too much space either, 6 years of logs is around 500 mb for me & over 2000 seperate logs total.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer


 
      
thunderbrush
 
PostPosted: Wed, May 16 2018, 23:00 PM 



Player

Joined: 12 Nov 2015
Location: The belly of the beast

Nice, answer and timely. However what I am trying to aim at is that there are grey areas to the rules and some are misunderstood. There are still people who think that some form of consent needs to be given. Not understanding that the actions they are taking is consent. I'm not one to screenshot things, and in general unless something unruly happens like getting ganked in the middle of a metropolitan area, I never will go to such ends. In fact, I would even discuss to the aggressor how he would feel about doing some jail time, as the guards would have taken note. Or perhaps he was a shadowdancer attacked and vanished. I'm pretty cool with that too. I'm all about being assassinated. It's why people play assassins. Assassins having to wait for DM oversight is overkill too.

The biggest offense is metahiding behind npc's. Since there is no DM present, they spout, and threaten in the safety of a populated area. What if the character is of chaotic alignment and doesn't care what happens? Now your character is forced to sit through it, as not adjudication can be given. Just trying to get some awareness out there, I guess and perhaps some thoughts from others on this. Being called out in Bendir happens all the time, and most of the time, the presence of the "guard" is what facilitates the silliness.

_________________
Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased


 
      
Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 17 2018, 5:57 AM 

User avatar

DM

Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls

There isn't a grey area in the pvp rules. Nowhere in the rules does it say that you need the expressed concept of the other player before you can initiate PvP. If people think so, I would urge them to carefully refamiliarize themselves with the PvP rules here. The only situation where expressed consent is required is if your character is to be captured for more than 24 RL hours. (part 16 under technicalities).

As for hiding behind npc's, that's not "metahiding" but acting in a realistic manner. People tend to be far braver and cockier in a situation where they know they have a social safety net, than if they didn't. It's part of the innate pack mentality in us humans, and for characters to follow the same pattern in game makes sense, especially if that character is of a "civilized" race which usually finds comfort and safety in numbers within cities rather than rural areas. While it can be annoying to try and deal with such situations, I'll offer 2 expressly different ways of dealing with it that should help characters of most alignments.

1. Make a complaint. If someone is exploiting safety from retribution of their actions by wrapping themselves in the safety of the law, then use that law against them. Pretty much every city on Amia has either expressed or assumed laws that bar such harassment. Use it, either by rallying the PC's there or threatening to contact a lawsperson to file charges or whatever. Situations like this is something that can also be handled by DM's to help solve a purely IC conflict, if the correct NPC's are contacted. However you can't rely on them caring either, especially given the personalities and views of some NPC's (and players for that matter).

2. Wait for them to be in a situation without the safety of the pack. If someone's been badgering and harassing your character and exploiting the social safetynet of law and order, then your character has plenty of IC reason to pick a fight with them or wanting to hunt them down and have a one to one serious talk. An apolagy can be demanded or the challange of a duel extended. As long as they have been given reasonable chance to back down from the conflict, both when they are caught alone & when they were badgering your character, you're covered as far as the rules go, assuming you followed all of the PvP rules properly. (The reasonable chance to back down one is the one that's most likely to cause an OOC conflict in my experience, however it says REASONABLE and it's the key word there).

There are certainly far more ways to approach the situation, but those are 2 examples that should be able to be used by any character of any alignment. (Yes even lawful good people will hunt you down if you insulted their honor. "En Guarde sir, you have insulted my honor!") I would however advice you to do take screenshots, or at the very least keep a log. This isn't to make people screenshot EVERYTHING and start mis-trusting eachother but because we as DM's can't take any action in an OOC conflict between players unless we have more than "he said she said". And personally, I always preferred to be on the side of caution in those situations, both as a player and as a DM, because it gives you your own safetynet in such conflict situations where it escelates from simple IC conflict to an OOC one.

_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer


 
      
thunderbrush
 
PostPosted: Fri, May 18 2018, 15:27 PM 



Player

Joined: 12 Nov 2015
Location: The belly of the beast

I think you kind of see where I am going. The operative word being ~reasonable~. I think if we, as players can expect a reaction, and accept that without making a huuuge issue out of things, we can have some good, organic RP with consequence again. If you get beaten, you get a rez. It doesn't cost you anything but pride, something that is easily gotten back. You live and die by principle in FR. I made this post so people might read it and have some consideration. 6 years ago, PvP happened often. Good vs. Evil was in full effect 1-2 years ago, almost all the PvP instances were punctuated by scandal. This is an RP server, I'm not suggesting a free for all, I just don't want to see things go back to the way they were a year ago.

_________________
Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased


 
      
bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 19 2018, 8:36 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Location: Southern Florida

The core of your issue seems to be that characters are just hiding behind NPCs or saying they require some manner of OOC consent to not get mulleted. That's not true. They only require an IC out.

Usually what I do is I set turn red to them, and demand they take back whatever they said, or stop whatever they're doing, or whatever would qualify as their out. If they don't concede they go to flavor town. If there are NPCs around I will literally just ask a DM to come pop in.

And then...

Bam! Protein everywhere.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Flannel Beard #5433


 
      
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