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this is merly a question I have, I know that their are rules against using spider like anything against lolthlite drow. would this rule of not using a spider like skin against lolthlites apply to non drow as well?

Though I do like the info that you put into it, sarrakan it looks neat.

Why would it, herkles? Drow vs. Drow, spider summons are a cheap way to win since the opponent shouldn't be attacking a spider. Drow vs. anyone else's summon, it becomes the Drow's personal problem and not a balancing one. Also note that it's a construct and will likely be called that.

herkles wrote:

this is merly a question I have, I know that their are rules against using spider like anything against lolthlite drow.

There are?

there are yoss, I remember when I made my request for my EDK reskin of to a spider, techincly a mylochar, as my old char mayae. I had to agree that I wouldn't use it against other drow, unless they are known heretics, ie jud, because a lolthlite can not kill a spider without commiting a sin and being known as a heretic. My question was if this applies to drow, does this apply to non drow?

Yes Nehky (I think) has said we can not use spider summons to kill drow. Since they have to die or become heritic.

I think its stupid. It's a valid technique to get control of Drow being hostile. Its not Really PvP if you do it right. You just have a spider ready to OMNOMNOMZ the Drow that wants to play "I attack you now!"

Its like "I'll use sick people to attack Salandrans! They won't kill them!" :twisted:

so hypothetically if any surfacer got an EDK reskin to a spider he/she can rule ultrinnan or slaughter it all because we can not harm them?

and saldrans afaik are pacifists so they won't kill people, i believe.

IronAngel wrote:

Be fair. If you OOCly know and maybe ICly suspect someone in Ultrinnan is a heretic, do not use your summon and PvP as a way to "confirm" this. If you are getting into a battle with a known Eilistraeen in a situation where it obviously makes no difference, go right ahead.

I dread to leave anything up to common sense, as there will always be someone trying to find loopholes. That's the best advice I can give, though: be fair and use common sense. If it gives you any unfair advantage over other characters, don't do it.

Nekhy wrote:

While it is a spider demon, it shouldn't be used against lolthite drow, yeah. That's the only restriction, along with what was said above too.

Oh.

A) This is a spider-construct. IE. Not a real spider.
B) Revoke the rule. Keeps the pesky drow away, another day. >_<

We're all going to get in trouble for spamming this request - if some dm could maybe split the spammy parts to a seperate thread regarding this question in "General", that might be good.

Joining the spamming though (with the hopes of a split removing these posts to their own thread...nudge nudge hint wink etc), having a spider summon out wouldn't be a "win" card, because you can dispel it without killing it, thus committing a heretical act, correct?

Or, you can ignore it/use a non-damaging spell like hold or other stun/immobiliser, and go right after the caster, and kill them, and still not have harmed the spider (which would de-summon), and thus not have committed a heretical act, correct?

Besides - it'd be pretty equal ground anyway, if two people with spider summons went at it. Neither could kill the other's spider, but they could still immobilise them, dispel them, or just kill the other person. And any auto-attacks like cleave, or AoO's would be ignorable by the fact they are automatic and not controllable.

So long as the spider isn't directly killed, not seeing a problem.

herkles wrote:

so hypothetically if any surfacer got an EDK reskin to a spider he/she can rule ultrinnan or slaughter it all because we can not harm them?

and saldrans afaik are pacifists so they won't kill people, i believe.

No. The said summoner would get shot in the head in a matter of seconds and the spider would be free. And All of Ultrinnan rejoiced with thier giant spider friend.

IronAngel wrote:

Be fair. If you OOCly know and maybe ICly suspect someone in Ultrinnan is a heretic, do not use your summon and PvP as a way to "confirm" this. If you are getting into a battle with a known Eilistraeen in a situation where it obviously makes no difference, go right ahead.

I dread to leave anything up to common sense, as there will always be someone trying to find loopholes. That's the best advice I can give, though: be fair and use common sense. If it gives you any unfair advantage over other characters, don't do it.

Oh.... common sence... right.

Right.. so.. we cant attack Lolthites with spiders?

Does this mean we cant attack paladins in a way that would force them to break their code, and thus fall? Kinda the same as the sin it would be of killing a spider.

If you can trick or otherwise take advantage of other faiths rules.. such as no killing.. or such.. then there is no reasion we cant take advantage of Lolthites weakness, being spiders. Your not special, you shouldnt get special rules unless we are going to go through the hole list of possablities and make a rule for all of them.

^ That.

Aye, I have a Drow priestess myself and I wouldn't mind OOCly about others having spider summons. My drow would just attack the caster instead. If I can't reach the caster, my drow would run away cursing and waiting for a time to strike back.

Unfair? Maybe. You can't win all confrontations.

I had a nice RP out in the frozen wastes the other day that reminded me of this.

A Lolthite had joined our party and had forgotten OOC there were spidey spawns. Well, one of our companions was especially graphic about stabbing a spider. The Lolthite player, remembering herself immediately stopped short, didn't touch the spider and asked the spider squisher to halt.

He stepped on the spiders head. It went squeesh.

So rather than run around and get xp, she set us to hostile and attacked. She put up a good fight but eventually went down. She knew she was gonna get obliterated, but rp'd it anyways.

I was all like DC WAND WAND WAND...unf unf unf...<3...*satisfaction*

I can understand why it's a rule...probably cuts out the excess gripes...but man..if Bendir Dale got a big spider???Right?

*Note to all drow* Hide the spider eggs.

Blatantly, This rule makes very little sense to me.

If you have a way to effectively shut your opponent down, Why be forbidden to do it?

Mages- Dev crit, Mages
SDers- Dev Crit, Mages
Dev Critters- SD, Mages
Drow- Spiders.
Universal- TS Potions, IMPKD

Everything can be misconstrued as an unfair advantage, so as a personal stance, I find the rule unfair all in it's own. It's a perfectly logical IC thing to do.

Your enemy is forbidden to attack spiders. . Sick a damn spider on him.
Your enemy can't see in light. Drag him outside.
Your enemy cant see in darnkess. Toss him in a cave.

Etc.
Etc.
And yes.
Etc.

I think it's a stupid rule but always have, TBQH.

I think the rule is meant for Llothites vs Llothite. A drow summoning a spider and putting it in danger to attack another Llothite to see if they will harm one of the Queen's children even though the act of summoning it ensure that it won't be harmed at the end of the summoning whether from depletion of Hp of summon or caster/time running out.

A surfacer using a spider against the drow doesn't always understand the social ramnifications for said drow, and should they find out they can tame spiders and sick'em at Llothites, I don't see why that should be dissallowed.

of course, as a lolthite you can pull out your very own spider summon, to fight their spider. May the best spider win! it's lolth's way, afterall.

Sudden Counterlogic: Siccing a spider vs a murderous Drow likely to kill anything to save their life is as much putting a spider in danger and so bad news for teh summoner as it is bad news for the victim to kill the spider, no?

So do away with this rule. >_>

TormakSaber wrote:

Sudden Counterlogic: Siccing a spider vs a murderous Drow likely to kill anything to save their life is as much putting a spider in danger and so bad news for teh summoner as it is bad news for the victim to kill the spider, no?

that would mean no lolthite would be allowed to summon spiders in combat situations without getting a severe spanking from lolth, no?

So all the drow clerics hunting with a reskinned spider and it takes some damage... aw pity, here's the fall-widget :twisted:

That sounds quite reasonable to me, personally.

Want a spider for the cool rp of having a tamed spider that follows you aroind? But the summonable companion widget.

Well, Idon't cclaim to be an expert on Drow by any means, it simply occured to me an an idea.

It was only supposed to prevent the Lolthite drow from griefing other Lolthite drow. I'm not sure if it's a good rule, but then, I think the idea that a drow wouldn't kill a spider if one attacked him is ridicilous. You think a hindu is going to let a cow trample him for fun just because it's sacred?

What it's supposed to prevent is OOC situations like "I don't like you, so I'll summon a spider you have to fight infront of NPCs and then get to kick you out." Moreover, the priestesses are supposed to have spells and domain powers to turn spiders, unless I'm mistaken. Feel free to come up with a better idea, though.

IronAngel wrote:

I'm not sure if it's a good rule, but then, I think the idea that a drow wouldn't kill a spider if one attacked him is ridicilous. You think a hindu is going to let a cow trample him for fun just because it's sacred?

This. If a spider attacks a Lolthite Drow, the Lolthite can defend himself. He may not particularly enjoy doing so, but if it's a choice between discomfort and death, a Drow (and really anything) chooses discomfort.

But that's the number one way for Hoarites to kill drows.

Uhm, it's certainly not a server-wide rule. It's a condition we've put on some summon skinchages we've approved. Hoarites have nothing to do with it.

I think a drow might summon a spider to kill another drow if he believed there was a chance it'd actually be effective.

Case in point lvl 1 summon vs lvl 28 drow warrior. Nau.

Also, summons when "killed" return to where they were summoned from, no worse for wear. The summon doesn't really put the drow in danger, but it does have something of a negative karma attatched to it if you see a drow fighting a spider.

Really you could probably do away with the ooc rule, and instead put in the IC rule in Ultrinnan that those causing unusual disturbances with the spiders shall be punished accordingly.

Thusly a drow party on the surface hunting Shekats is spotted by another drow. OOoooh they might get the hammer brought down on them if the claim is verified.

Priestess summoning a spider to kill children in a surface town? A O.K. Mage summoning a spider to kill a rival with little hope of success for the spider is just annoying the spider, and the drow that killed the spider in self defense ended the mage's hijacking of it's mind and sent it back to where it came from. Still, hitting the spider could get negative social context as much as treating the spider like a servant.

Secretly killing a summoned spider will likely never cause issues, and secretly killing a spider would be up to Lloth to manifest her anger on. Secretly summoning a spider, and then having it attack your enemy on the street while remaining invisible could be a viable way of causing him issues, since the spider is unknown to be a summoned spider or not.

It is just a matter of making sure IC interpretation of such an event is in your favor. Maybe it's the summoner's fault that the spider is dead? She should have made sure that the spider is not harmed when she summons such a creature.
I remember well when my drow priestess killed a Bebelith and blamed someone else for it. That was fun.

EXACTLY. And typically it's the survivor that gets to write the history of it. Ultimately killing a summon may or may not invoke Lloth's anger simply because the summon is unharmed when the duration of the summon spell ends, regaurdless of "death" or what-have-you.

Halen_Van wrote:

A surfacer using a spider against the drow doesn't always understand the social ramnifications for said drow, and should they find out they can tame spiders and sick'em at Llothites, I don't see why that should be dissallowed.

I seem to remember there being something said about spiders summoned by surfacers had turned from Lolth for whatever reason and therefore became free game for a Lolthite drow to epicly squeesh. I could have been hallucinating and it's all a figment of my imagination, though. *shrug*

And I seem to remember hearing/reading/whatever something about drow priestesses having the turn spider ability as well, Iron. Can't rightly say where, though.

Talon wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

I'm not sure if it's a good rule, but then, I think the idea that a drow wouldn't kill a spider if one attacked him is ridicilous. You think a hindu is going to let a cow trample him for fun just because it's sacred?

This. If a spider attacks a Lolthite Drow, the Lolthite can defend himself. He may not particularly enjoy doing so, but if it's a choice between discomfort and death, a Drow (and really anything) chooses discomfort.

Yup.

War of the Spider Queen.

The drow party at the Demonweb Pits is attacked by spiders. The whole Demonweb Pits is filled with spiders.

If memory serves, the drow attacked. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, those with better memories and that read the series.

The way I see it, Lolth preaches survival of the fittest. Let a spider kill your PC, if you are perfectly capable to defend yourself, doesn't seem to fit this.

Sure, you cannot randomly attack a spider just because. But I don't see why, either, you cannot fight back one of them to save your life.

Let the strongest survive, isn't that so? Decide it on a fight.

Which is why Lloth tries to make sure all her worshippers think there are no other true gods that she does not own, and why females desperately need to keep the males in line with a delicate balance of fear/abuse/treats.

Halen_Van wrote:

Which is why Lloth tries to make sure all her worshippers think there are no other true gods that she does not own, and why females desperately need to keep the males in line with a delicate balance of fear/abuse/treats.

Do keep in mind that in most cases of the human race, males are larger and more physically dominant than females, who are more emotionally and mentally tough. In the drow race, females are usually bigger than the males. To me this means that the gender rolls have probably been flip flopped. Females are more physically dominant, but the males are most likely more emotionally and mentally strong.

When I think about male/female rolls in drow society, I think of a perverted flip flopped version of our society in the middle ages. Where women were nothing more than a useful thing to have around to clean your stuff, raise your kids and generally have as a slave.

BlackDahlya wrote:

The drow party at the Demonweb Pits is attacked by spiders. The whole Demonweb Pits is filled with spiders.

Weren't those demon spiders and not regular primal plane ones?

I think that if you summon a bebilith or an astral spider or an elemental spider, it's yay okay. But if you bind a spider from the prime, that is where the conjurer can get in trouble with Lolth? Loremonkeys, go!

If someone summons a spider, run or kill the caster IMO.
Spells like banishment also get rid of it without doing harm.

Signe Johanne wrote:

BlackDahlya wrote:

The drow party at the Demonweb Pits is attacked by spiders. The whole Demonweb Pits is filled with spiders.

Weren't those demon spiders and not regular primal plane ones?

I think that if you summon a bebilith or an astral spider or an elemental spider, it's yay okay. But if you bind a spider from the prime, that is where the conjurer can get in trouble with Lolth? Loremonkeys, go!

Yus! Heed our call Loremonkeys! I'm too lazy to check the books again. T_T

EDIT: But we do have a Prestige Class for drow called Arachnomancer.

wouldn't the smart thing to do is.. umm.. attack the owner of the dragon reskinned spider? because it's not like they can Gs or anything.. just saying and the little spider.. just have scrolls on you and attack with the little spider. infact thats what Inrae did against wiggan one day. got her spider to attak wiggans then hit wiggan in the face.. til ravena came along and discovered Inrae over wiggans body... but the point it.. your drow is a race that is renown for it's intellegence. start using yours?

ainjyll wrote:

When I think about male/female rolls in drow society, I think of a perverted flip flopped version of our society in the middle ages. Where women were nothing more than a useful thing to have around to clean your stuff, raise your kids and generally have as a slave.

The answer, from the eyes of the Drow males.

And that.

HellScourge wrote:

ainjyll wrote:

When I think about male/female rolls in drow society, I think of a perverted flip flopped version of our society in the middle ages. Where women were nothing more than a useful thing to have around to clean your stuff, raise your kids and generally have as a slave.

The answer, from the eyes of the Drow males.

And that.

Seven (abbreviated) words!

ROFLMAO

lol.

Anyway, if you attack a spider Ideal with it ICly. I know my Yath won't give a damn what your excuse is, she'll have new shoes made from you anyway.

Luckily, it's very rare a true spider is ever brought into the equation when in PvP or any sort of player conflict. And if a non-drow uses one on any of my drow, they'd probably kill it just to put it out of the misery of serving a surfacer as a pet. Besides, it's only illegal if you get caught and even if you get caught you can still sometimes pull it off.

ainjyll wrote:

it's only illegal if you get caught

Hey, does this mean Tinnerai is renaming to House Nix'on?

Yurell wrote:

Anyway, if you attack a spider Ideal with it ICly. I know my Yath won't give a damn what your excuse is, she'll have new shoes made from you anyway.

This is the problem we're discussing, because this shouldn't really be the case. I can understand her being displeased, but she shouldn't immediately go "KILL THE HERETIC!!"

I would like a DM's comment on this,

so this means by the comments here if I were to ask for a reskin of say EDK to be a spider, I am allowed to kill other drow now when previously nekhy said that it was not allowed to kill other drow with a spider, for they have to be a heretic or die. so am I allowed now to get a spider reskin and be able to kill other lolthlites now?

also talon: it is part of drow rp, killing spiders is a sin that is punishable by death.

Well the thing is, you can't kill a summoned creature. The moment the creature's Hp is reduced to 0 it does not die. Instead it returns to it's former location before summoning uninjured. All summoning a spider would do, is inconvenience the spider at the hands of the cleric or mage that summoned it.

Talon wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Anyway, if you attack a spider Ideal with it ICly. I know my Yath won't give a damn what your excuse is, she'll have new shoes made from you anyway.

This is the problem we're discussing, because this shouldn't really be the case. I can understand her being displeased, but she shouldn't immediately go "KILL THE HERETIC!!"

I'll openly admit that if a PC comes to me about another PC killing spiders, I'll take it with a grain of salt. Yes, it's not something that is supposed to be done, but with the great prevalence of spiders on the module, it can be kinda tricky to go some places and not have to deal with spiders. The Gauntlet, for one example. So, I for one, take it on a case to case basis. If your PC sees a spider crawling on the ground and goes, "Eww.... *squish*". I'll deal with it differently than a PC saying, "I saw so-and-so at such-and-such a place and they squished a spider." The first will get you a smackdown, the latter will get a slap on the wrist and a kind OOC tell saying that you should be more careful where you hunt or at least who's watching you.

I remember when Bree'nye got a severe smackdown early on my career here on Amia for killing something that wasn't even a spider. It just had a spider skin on it.... so, I guess what I'm saying here is be kind and take it on a case-by-case basis. Use your best judgement and figure out if it was an honest mistake or if it was a blatent action before jumping down the PC's throat.

herkles wrote:

also talon: it is part of drow rp, killing spiders is a sin that is punishable by death.

I realize this. I'm saying that, in the instance where a spider is attacking a Drow, it should NOT be expected for the Drow to just lay down and die.

You'd have to convince people it wasn't a summoned spider, you weren't commanding it with the subsequent hijacking of it's will, and come up with a convincing story of why there is no body left behind to make the heretic claim stick.

Now say you suprised a drow with one in the middle of Ultrinnan. They might not fight back because they don't know if it's a summon or not.

Spider Summon Reskins and Drow

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