AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Walls of Text

I been noticing it happening a lot lately under PC stories. Great big daunting walls of text, in weird colours, whole chapters written in one big long diatribe.

Tip No. 1 - No one online often reads more than a few paragraphs, by paragraph five, you've lost nearly everyone unless the story is gripping. Try and keep your stories under 5 paragraphs. Where the story is longer, break it down into cut scenes (multiple posts in your journals, etc).

Keep it short and more people will actually read it!

im just curious, whats the point of this topic? i understand your point but is there really such a need to make it known to all?

Yes, there's a need. Its a general tip for everyone writing journals. That would be the whole and only point.

I think that this is not a tip, it's a matter of personal preference from both the writer and the reader(s).

EDIT: It's simple, really. Those who don't like it won't read it. Those who do will read.

As a reader, I actually want to read these stories but am totally put off by a wall of text. That says to me that the writer is using bad design for online reading. So yes, it IS a tip.

What's the point of posting it if you're putting off your readers from reading your painstaking work by bad design?

then why not suggest it directly to a person? PErsonally i use color to denote conversation. I probably wont change it and still there have been many readers of the story thus far. This seriously reeks of personal taste and like adri said, you dont like it dont read it. Im not a dm so i cant claim anything but my own opinion, but this seriously didnt need an entire topic.

Books would be walls of text, if they were not divided in pages.

Sure, they are not colourful.

But, hey... one can always copy the colourful texts and paste it on Notepad, for instance, where it will be free of colours.

I use the color to identify speeches and usually the color of the speech is the color of the eyes of my characters.

For me, that is creative writing.

Thus, I repeat: it's all a matter of personal preference.

Good design is nothing to do with personal taste. It either works (is efficacious) or it doesn't (lacks functionality). Writing for online audiences is a skill in itself.

I noticed its not just one person doing this and I don't think everyone can handle criticism on a personal level well. Thus, its a general tip to everyone who is thinking of doing a journal. Yes, I'm an expert in writing for online audiences so feel qualified to point it out.

The whole "if you don't like it, don't read it" attitude fails to understand the basics of keeping an audience engaged and interested in what the writer is trying to portray. Ignore your reader's at your peril!

A question, SoaS, and no, I am not picking on you or flaming you, or taking badly what you said.

Do you really presume to speak for all the people reading the texts so far? Did they all go to you and said: "Oh, yuck.. I cannot stand the colors on that text"?

Just like you are voicing your thoughts and opinions, so am I. Please, don't come saying that I am not "taking well to criticism".

Again, it's a matter of personal taste.

No. Its not a matter of personal taste. There are plenty of studies out there that show what makes good writing for the web and what makes bad writing for the web. If you wish me to send you a pm of said studies, I'd be happy to do so.

Basically, anyone can ignore the tip and that's entirely up to them. I'm telling you, from experience and from all the studies I've read, you're putting off your readers by having walls and walls of text you have to scroll down.

its even worse when the colours chosen don't suit a black background (ie., use such colours sparingly).

I find it's generally a good idea to use a limited number of small paragraphs, and if there's more generally separate it into a couple of posts.

But it's entirely a personal preference, measured only by the attention span of one's audience.

I can sort of understand where SoaS is coming from, I myself have no problem with colored text unless it is just insanely crazy. The thing that turns myself off from reading certain posts is length, ie super huge ones. But this is as dri said a personal thing, I can always toss it onto word and then cut it up that way.

Writing styles are a personal thing, really.

No one is right or wrong, and so help me please keep scienctific studies out of a personal, and creative experience.

I write my way, others write theirs. Simple concept.

Sometimes, I write small and generally summative pieces. Sometimes, I write pieces which are more deliberately meant to be long. It depends on my writing mood and what sticks out in my mind.

My question to those who are writing long textual styles is, have you taken the needs of your audience into account? I'm not so sure you have.

Original Post wrote:

I don't like how you write your stories! Change immediately because I know better!

To get back on point. It's writing. Let people write how they want. Both short, broken up stories and long, elaborate and thick stories have their merits and are often presenting the style of the writer and how they enjoy writing.

If you don't enjoy reading, you don't have to read. Seriously.

Grymia wrote:

Writing styles are a personal thing, really.

No one is right or wrong, and so help me please keep scienctific studies out of a personal, and creative experience.

I write my way, others write theirs. Simple concept.

Sometimes, I write small and generally summative pieces. Sometimes, I write pieces which are more deliberately meant to be long. It depends on my writing mood and what sticks out in my mind.

That. Yay, my ENTER key is working again!

All the scientific surveys are true on a general audience, but that's for the average population as a whole ... whether or not there's a survey on "length of a post regular forum readers will read" I have no idea.

soundofastream wrote:

My question to those who are writing long textual styles is, have you taken the needs of your audience into account? I'm not so sure you have.

Again, books have hundreds of pages. Do you think the writers first think if people will read or not those hundred pages that will be printed in small pages with tiny letters?

Nope. They just write.

Those who like reading hundreds of pages with tiny letters will read it anyway.

Those who don't, won't.

Those who might be curious, will start and if they don't like, they will stop; or they will keep reading and might end up liking.

soundofastream wrote:

My question to those who are writing long textual styles is, have you taken the needs of your audience into account? I'm not so sure you have.

Who says they're writing for you, anyway?

I can understand complaining about a poorly written request topic, or Things to Change post. Those require technical details and specific information be transmitted in a clear and efficient way. But PC Story Posts specifically? Seriously?

I think SoaS was just trying to make a suggestion, and it was just unfortunate that her wording sounded like she was making an attack on people - I don't think she meant it to be.

There is no attack on anyone. I read these posts and I find that I can't continue reading them. Once again, I'd love to read them but they're just sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long, that I'm put off.

Writing for web is different to writing for print. Anyway, the wise ones will write in a way as per tip above. They'll find more people will read it because, they're not confronted by a wall of text online and will be able to digest the information faster, easier and in a more convenient style.

Here's an interesting report on how readers read web content (apologies for the horrid long hyperlink!.

http://webdesign.about.com/gi/dynamic/o ... iting.html

Key findings from it are as follows:
* users do not read on the Web; instead they scan the pages, trying to pick out a few sentences or even parts of sentences to get the information they want
* users do not like long, scrolling pages: they prefer the text to be short and to the point
* users detest anything that seems like marketing fluff or overly hyped language ("marketese") and prefer factual information.

The first two points illustrate my tip exactly. People SCAN the text, if its overly long, they won't read it. In short, you are wasting your time (for everyone but yourself).

The second point, scrolling long pages. If people have to scroll down your post, chances are, they won't. Again, you're wasting your time. Don't bother posting it unless you only wish to read it yourself (that is, you don't particularly care about other readers).

I got as far as "there is no attack on anyone" and it just got too long.

Sorry I couldn't resist.

Yeah, I did that deliberately to illustrate my point on scrolling...hehe

Annoying isn't it?

Although I agree with you to a certain extent (gods know I have passed up my fair share of posts based on length and format), I think this is one of those types of complaints/constructive criticisms that will turn people off rather than inform.

I can't see how that's so. The text is short and concise as follows:
--------------
I been noticing it happening a lot lately under PC stories. Great big daunting walls of text, in weird colours, whole chapters written in one big long diatribe.

Tip No. 1 - No one online often reads more than a few paragraphs, by paragraph five, you've lost nearly everyone unless the story is gripping. Try and keep your stories under 5 paragraphs. Where the story is longer, break it down into cut scenes (multiple posts in your journals, etc).

Keep it short and more people will actually read it!

--------------

Perfectly logical and reasonable, no flaming, nothing else but a quick tip from a reader to all those writing their stories in PC section). But like anything, people think a finger is pointed at them personally for some silly reason.

soundofastream wrote:

Keep it short and more people will actually read it!

I think that is your reason

Remember, however, that information is for general purpose reading such as someone who's gone on Google and is just looking around. Most people who go into the PC Story Forums are doing so for the purposes of reading PC Stories - as opposed to the purpose of 'just reading'.

Even my own, very long, written stories (as I'm sure you've seen dozens of, since I write alot), get plenty of review and responses. Despite the fact they're long.

IMHO, you're make assumptions off of facts that aren't really relevant in context. Your presentation of 'possible improvements' leaves alot to be desired, too, because as typical you come off condencending and otherwise as though "It's my way and you're idiots if you don't".

I can see what you're saying, sound, but if it's personal preference it shouldn't have been a topic here. "I prefer my reading material to be this way" would have been a bad header...ya know? That was sort of the tone.

I like long writing if I like the writing. I like short writing if I like the writing. Your preferences are your preferences.

Quote:

Once again, I'd love to read them but they're just sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long, that I'm put off.

That study was directed at technical writing, and reports, which should be concise.

It's rather silly to expect Creative Writings (Such as in PC Story) to be put in a Bulleted List for your convenience.

Maybe you aren't trying to specifically criticize someone, but it certainly takes a good deal of chutzpa to say that you're "put off" by people writing about their characters in the way that they see fit. I almost would rather you specifically give fair literary criticism to a story than make gross generalizations about the writing styles of your fellow players.

To conclude, It's a bad thing to say creative writing should be homogenized for your convenience. (Unless you happen to be into Socialist Realism.)

Lalelilolu wrote:

I can see what you're saying, sound, but if it's personal preference it shouldn't have been a topic here. "I prefer my reading material to be this way" would have been a bad header...ya know? That was sort of the tone.

I like long writing if I like the writing. I like short writing if I like the writing. Your preferences are your preferences.

:)

Exactly. There are short texts that I like reading, but there are short texts that I don't like reading. Same goes with long texts: some I like reading, others, I don't.

It all depends on the writing style, regardless if long or short and coloured or not.

Wow. Just wow. When you thought they hit the bottom, huh?

WonWon wrote:

Remember, however, that information is for general purpose reading such as someone who's gone on Google and is just looking around. Most people who go into the PC Story Forums are doing so for the purposes of reading PC Stories - as opposed to the purpose of 'just reading'.

Even my own, very long, written stories (as I'm sure you've seen dozens of, since I write alot), get plenty of review and responses. Despite the fact they're long.

IMHO, you're make assumptions off of facts that aren't really relevant in context. Your presentation of 'possible improvements' leaves alot to be desired, too, because as typical you come off condencending and otherwise as though "It's my way and you're idiots if you don't".

That.

This is why I said that the survey wasn't just on people who visit forums to read the story - if you did generic survey, you'll find most people wouldn't want to play NWN as well. But everyone here does.

Everything needs to eb taken in context.

Bear in mind, you can specify a colour that isn't on the drop-down if you know the RGB value. For example:

Grey
Sky Blue
Lime
Magenta

Code:

[color=#808080]Grey[/color]
[color=#c0c0ff]Sky Blue[/color]
[color=#c0ff00]Lime[/color]
[color=#ff00ff]Magenta[/color]

Using a custom colour can make the writing a bit less harsh on the eyes, while still maintaining the usefulness of colour.

Short paragraphs (you can have a sentence stand on its own if you like, especially if it's dialogue) are useful for improving the pace of the writing as well as the readability.

Yurell summed it up nicely. The rest is reading too much into the tea leaves.

Keep it short, concise and where you do need to go over many pages, break it up into said pages (scrolling down and down really does suck). Don't do it and I will continue to not read it, even if I really wanted to as a reader because, it just looks, well, daunting. Make it convenient to read and we'll read it.

That grey, on my screen at least, is hard to read on a black background. I could imagine if someone did whole paragraphs in it, I'd immediately not read it.

soundofastream wrote:

That grey, on my screen at least, is hard to read on a black background. I could imagine if someone did whole paragraphs in it, I'd immediately not read it.

Again, you could just select the text and then copy-and-paste on a program like Notepad. It doesn't need too much effort to go through that task.

No, I am not flamming.

Yes, it's a tip, just like the tip you used to start this thread. That being said, it might as well be ignored if you want.

Soas, you are exactly right. I also like to read stories, but if they are A) SOme damn bright colour that blows my eyes our when I open the page. B) If they are writen in huge letters. C) If it is not sectioned, but a long one big text. One of those, and I prefer not to read it. SOmetimes I do read it a bit, but usualy not.

Its a good idea. I might just do that for some of the posts I've tried to read lately but just gave up as it hurt my eyes.

That said, if the poster followed good design practice in the first place, it would be far more considerate on people's eyes.

oh! A good example of a journal entry that works would be Koragi's Journal of a Monster. The font is a little big but other than that, its fantastic! I can read it, I don't have to scroll for miles and what's more, she breaks the text up into nice chunks so that I can follow the story. *heaps praise on Koragi!*

soundofastream wrote:

Yurell summed it up nicely. The rest is reading too much into the tea leaves.

Keep it short, concise and where you do need to go over many pages, break it up into said pages (scrolling down and down really does suck). Don't do it and I will continue to not read it, even if I really wanted to as a reader because, it just looks, well, daunting. Make it convenient to read and we'll read it.

That grey, on my screen at least, is hard to read on a black background. I could imagine if someone did whole paragraphs in it, I'd immediately not read it.

If you were actually interested, you'd read because you wanted to, formatting be damned.

TormakSaber wrote:

soundofastream wrote:

Yurell summed it up nicely. The rest is reading too much into the tea leaves.

Keep it short, concise and where you do need to go over many pages, break it up into said pages (scrolling down and down really does suck). Don't do it and I will continue to not read it, even if I really wanted to as a reader because, it just looks, well, daunting. Make it convenient to read and we'll read it.

That grey, on my screen at least, is hard to read on a black background. I could imagine if someone did whole paragraphs in it, I'd immediately not read it.

If you were actually interested, you'd read because you wanted to, formatting be damned.

I don't think I could of said it better myself...

I think SoaS was talking about how to attract people who are just browsing, as opposed to people who are there specifically to read something.

That said, whenever I go to that forum I go there to read and I read, no matter what the formatting.

Guxx wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

soundofastream wrote:

Yurell summed it up nicely. The rest is reading too much into the tea leaves.

Keep it short, concise and where you do need to go over many pages, break it up into said pages (scrolling down and down really does suck). Don't do it and I will continue to not read it, even if I really wanted to as a reader because, it just looks, well, daunting. Make it convenient to read and we'll read it.

That grey, on my screen at least, is hard to read on a black background. I could imagine if someone did whole paragraphs in it, I'd immediately not read it.

If you were actually interested, you'd read because you wanted to, formatting be damned.

I don't think I could of said it better myself...

I disagree. I am very interested in reading the stories here, and elsewere on the net, but it IS the format of it that makes me stop reading.

Btw, that is psychologigal thingy, that people has better motivation etc. if the outfit of the text is pleasing to the reades eye. But as said, there are damn lots of people, with all have their own 'pleasing text format's.

Three things:

1. Layout
2. Useability
3. Accessibility

Good design is done design. User friendly, reader friendly posts is all I plea for!

someonecouldwritelikethisinalltheirpostsanditwouldviolateacceptedrulesofformattingandortheycouldphrasetheirwritinginawaywhichisconsidereatetothereaderinthehopesthatwheirwritingisappreciatedbasedonthecontentandnottheramblingformatinwhichthatcontentispresented.

If you don't think the reader is important, don't bother writing.

jameslocke wrote:

someonecouldwritelikethisinalltheirpostsanditwouldviolateacceptedrulesofformattingandortheycouldphrasetheirwritinginawaywhichisconsidereatetothereaderinthehopesthatwheirwritingisappreciatedbasedonthecontentandnottheramblingformatinwhichthatcontentispresented.

If you don't think the reader is important, don't bother writing.

I actually read all of it and even found typos.

Which goes back to the point some of us are trying to make: if you want to read, you will read either way regardless of format.

Not entirely true. If you aren't sure if you want to read something and are presented with a Wall of Text, in all likelihood, you won't read it in the first place.

IF for some unknown reason, you're already facinated by someone's character, you'll persevere, even though your eyes are being tried and tested and your concentration span is going out the window.

Soundofastream is actually correct here. I know this, because I have a ph.D in every subject known to man.

However, none of you are professional writers, and therefore you do not have the expectation to be writing towards your audience here. So you may take the advice with the whole shaker, if you like.

What typos?

Well, here's an example of formatting. This is a short portion of Grymia's wonderful story:

Grymia wrote:

In the Main Radio centre of the Port Authority of Wharftown, business at least for the moment was as normal. Radio operators taking activity reports both from the patrol ships , and trade vessels which were Docked in Wharftown's harbour. The on duty supervisor, a slightly overweight human with a full head of hair and bushy beard was watching over the bulk of the Radio operators in the multi-level radio centre, leaning quietly on the oaken frame of the railing. Sighing to himself, he looked to his assistant , a young human woman with red hair and glasses before following up with a sigh , looking to the two Guards, both only armed with 'Sling' Revolvers who stood watch at the doorway.

A knock could be heard at the door way, prompting both Guards to begin turning around before the door swung open, revealing two people. A tall, pale man in black and green robes with a cowl covering his head holding a staff in his right gloved hand while his left hand a skeletal remain though fully animate and functional, showing itself to be such as it gestured to the lithe black haired female beside him, wearing an open shirt exposing some of her midriff as well as up her form, with a gun belt , on which were two customized 'Kama' longpistols.

The gesture, was the only prompting the female needed as she quickly drew both Kamas and shot each guard in the shoulder , causing them to reel back as she then turned her guns on the Supervisor and his assistance, shooting each of them in a kneecap as she ran to the nearby stairwell , hopping up onto the rail and sliding down into the main radio room where upon she proceeded to deliver a ballet of lead and fire which though beautiful and stunning to behold was also quite painful to bear as lead bit flesh. Running into the approximate centre of the radio pit , the female quietly regarded everyone in the room , narrowing her eyes before taking a moment to briefly bring a small medallion out of one of the pouches of her gun belt, a necklace with the Holy symbol of a Nine tailed Scourge, Loviatar's symbol upon it. Putting it on, she looked up as her Master strode confidently over to the railing looking in.

"Hispara Ralynn, might I ask why did thou not slay any of the radio personnel?" the figure asked, throwing back his cowl to reveal his long white hair, Hazel eyes and pale angular features before he looked to the female dancer of such a lethal ballet.

"I wished for you to take the pleasure of snuffing their Life forces, Speaker." she replied with a quiet and calm tone up to him. With a pleased nod, he held out his skeletal hand, causing from it to spring forth a greenish gem which hovered just above his palm for a brief moment before a Banshee's cry could be heard, sickening green light filling the room as the combined lives of all present, save Hispara and the one referred to as Speaker. As the greenish light faded, and the suffering radiofolk fell dead, grey as though all the remaining colour had been drained from them , Hispara carefully made her way up the stairwell.

"Now, mine Hispara. Where can we find the Port Authority's overall manager?" the Speaker asked, his narrowing eyes scanning the upper level until an office door caugh his attention. With a nod, he and Hispara began to stride over, however just as they were about to enter, Hispara held him from entering. The Speaker looked down to his companion with the same narrowed eyes which regarded the door.

Now try reading this:

Quote:

In the Main Radio centre of the Port Authority of Wharftown, business at least for the moment was as normal. Radio operators taking activity reports both from the patrol ships , and trade vessels which were Docked in Wharftown's harbour. The on duty supervisor, a slightly overweight human with a full head of hair and bushy beard was watching over the bulk of the Radio operators in the multi-level radio centre, leaning quietly on the oaken frame of the railing. Sighing to himself, he looked to his assistant , a young human woman with red hair and glasses before following up with a sigh , looking to the two Guards, both only armed with 'Sling' Revolvers who stood watch at the doorway. A knock could be heard at the door way, prompting both Guards to begin turning around before the door swung open, revealing two people. A tall, pale man in black and green robes with a cowl covering his head holding a staff in his right gloved hand while his left hand a skeletal remain though fully animate and functional, showing itself to be such as it gestured to the lithe black haired female beside him, wearing an open shirt exposing some of her midriff as well as up her form, with a gun belt , on which were two customized 'Kama' longpistols. The gesture, was the only prompting the female needed as she quickly drew both Kamas and shot each guard in the shoulder , causing them to reel back as she then turned her guns on the Supervisor and his assistance, shooting each of them in a kneecap as she ran to the nearby stairwell , hopping up onto the rail and sliding down into the main radio room where upon she proceeded to deliver a ballet of lead and fire which though beautiful and stunning to behold was also quite painful to bear as lead bit flesh. Running into the approximate centre of the radio pit , the female quietly regarded everyone in the room , narrowing her eyes before taking a moment to briefly bring a small medallion out of one of the pouches of her gun belt, a necklace with the Holy symbol of a Nine tailed Scourge, Loviatar's symbol upon it. Putting it on, she looked up as her Master strode confidently over to the railing looking in. "Hispara Ralynn, might I ask why did thou not slay any of the radio personnel?" the figure asked, throwing back his cowl to reveal his long white hair, Hazel eyes and pale angular features before he looked to the female dancer of such a lethal ballet. "I wished for you to take the pleasure of snuffing their Life forces, Speaker." she replied with a quiet and calm tone up to him. With a pleased nod, he held out his skeletal hand, causing from it to spring forth a greenish gem which hovered just above his palm for a brief moment before a Banshee's cry could be heard, sickening green light filling the room as the combined lives of all present, save Hispara and the one referred to as Speaker. As the greenish light faded, and the suffering radiofolk fell dead, grey as though all the remaining colour had been drained from them , Hispara carefully made her way up the stairwell. "Now, mine Hispara. Where can we find the Port Authority's overall manager?" the Speaker asked, his narrowing eyes scanning the upper level until an office door caugh his attention. With a nod, he and Hispara began to stride over, however just as they were about to enter, Hispara held him from entering. The Speaker looked down to his companion with the same narrowed eyes which regarded the door.

Which would you be more likely to read?

jameslocke wrote:

What typos?

"wheir" instead of "their" was the only one I saw when skimming

I'm sorry was there a point to this topic?

I don't need tips on Creative Writing.

Quote:

cre⋅a⋅tive /kriˈeɪtɪv/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kree-ey-tiv] Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective
1. having the quality or power of creating.
2. resulting from originality of thought, expression, etc.; imaginative: creative writing.
3. originative; productive (usually fol. by of).
4. Facetious. using or creating exaggerated or skewed data, information, etc.: creative bookkeeping.

My point is

Creative = Originality which means tips for creative writing nears the oxymoronic. You don't need tips to be original, that would defeat the purpose.

Tips on the proper use of grammar and punctuation i could deal with, but i severely doubt anyone here can be bothered writing at a dissertation level for something thats meant to be fun.

Oh right. Fun Police.

Someone end this topic wth a reference to Nazism please.

Sorry, you're not allowed to purposefully call for a comparison n an attempt to force Godwin's. It's part of the Law.

Walls of Text - Tips on creative writing

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