This isn't exactly a new subject, which hasn't been discussed before. Most have thought about it, a lot have talked about it and everyone's experienced it in one way or another, direct or indirect.

It's the matter of Evil vs Good. Who's meant to win? What side is to be emphasized? Which has the advantages? Which should have the advantages? From where can this alignmentbased core conflict produce RP possibilities, plots and character progression?

Just recently, I had a discussion about this in-game, with another player. He made several points, which I found interesting. Due to not having asked him if he would like to appear on the forums with his opinions, I'll change his characters name to anonymous.

Here's the log from our conversation:

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Anonymous: [Tell] But in truth, playing a goody gets you the most positive rp. You can save people, kill "evil" creatures for the hell of it, defend, call things unjust, stc stc, and all get a nice pat on the back fo rit.
Anonymous: [Tell] even if you're "evil", you do what would be considered "evil" rp, someone's gonna get pissed OoCly over something eventually.
Anonymous: [Tell] And dms may not always agree with youre idea of being "evil" over just harassing others. And rarely gets as many rp help-outs as good plaots. Most people just find good easier and more reqarding.

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Darthion Illys: [Tell] I've played paladins on other servers, actually. I really like them.
Darthion Illys: [Tell] But, I think for RP in general, it's a horrible idea to have a setting that favours good.
Darthion Illys: [Tell] If you look at almost all other fantasy settings, it's the evil which has the upper hand. Star Wars and Lord of the Rings probably being the best examples.
Darthion Illys: [Tell] Rather than having evil strive for just being evil, which leads to stagnat RP without conflict, it's much better to have good striving to rid of evil, and restore good.


Frey also partially addressed this subject in this topic:




I'll leave this discussion pretty open from here, as I'm keen on hearing your opinions, suggestions, ideas and preferences.


Some questions that might be worth discussing:

# Is Amia a setting that favours Good or Evil aligned characters?

# Should it favour either Good or Evil, which one if so, and why?

# Is DnD itself geared towards favouring Good or Evil PCs?

# Is Evil vs Good conflict RP currently working on Amia? If not, why doesn't it?

# Which setting is in your opinion most beneficial to RP, plots and character development, and why? One which emphasizes good, or one that emphasizes evil?

# Are there mechanical disadvantages to either side, which makes it difficult to find a good balance between Good and Evil on Amia, which keeps the favour upon either side, which also shows in RP?

# Which alignment do you prefer for your own characters, and why?


Those are just some suggestions on what could be discussed relating to this subject.

I'm very interested in hearing other players perspective on this.


Best Regards,

Mago.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

Amia doesn't specifically cater to one or the other, IMO. We have good factions and we have evil factions. Both are encouraged OOCly as far as I know. If they aren't, they should be. The problem isn't Amia specific, but the modern world culture view of good vs evil. Good is supposed to always triumph. Frankly, thats a load of BS as there is so much corruption in the world... thats a bit irrelevant though.

On Amia, there should be given the opportunity of success on both sides. It is childish to expect to win 100% of the time, even if you are raised in a society that tells its children that good is win and evil sucks and always fails (example: team rocket. end of story). 50/50 is good, but unrealistic, and predictability is bad. 40% evil, 60% good would be a decent average win.

Entertaining situations come from faction tension and conflict. If one side is continually put down, it will dwindle into a very small population. Making it fun for both sides means more conflict because bad guys have a chance and will get to enjoy themselves too.

I am unsure, i believe amia favors shallow good, or WYSIWG good. This is also obvious good, the group that tries to redeem others, or won't judge based on race, class, and so forth, innocent good.



Ideally, it should favor -none-. That is right, none. Both should have power. I call it the balance affect, when one gets close to purity it drops and swings the reverse so that it never is perfect one way or the other. that is what should be on amia, sometimes evil has the upper hand, sometimes good.



It is not, IMO, and the reason is simple. no consqunses for death or I believe in genral. Sure you can "advise" someone to take the consquense but there are really none. Bad Guy A can fight and kill pally B in an epic fight at the pally's base, next day pally B can fight bad guy A at bad guy's base and kill the bad guy and so forth. unless there are consquenses I doubt good Vs Evil will actually get anny better then it is now.



it depends, for what you asked for, I state my pendulim theory. this does not mean the status quo, but an activly changing world that when things get bleakest light shines through and prevails and it works vice versa when things seem to be there best without any fear or worry a new darkness comes forth.



there are no real mechanicly disadventage IMO, most of it is as a result the player attitudes upon the server. That is the reason why, people mostly due to the fact people don't fear consquenses because there are none that are actually placed upon them only those that they the player places upon themselves.



I don't have a perticulary favored alignement. You could say evil, but i wasn't playing evil soley to play evil. My evil charachters are drow, who live down below, that is mainly why. All the same myy good charachters I have made are elves on the surface.

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(
made by Gem.
Elven information links

A couple of years ago I downloaded a "complete AD&D archive", it's over a gig in size and consists of dozens of .pdfs, one of which contains an ad calling for submissions to a "Living City" project. A "Living City" is built by fans virtually from the ground up - the city starts off as just a generic city and the fans fill it out with NPCs, suburbs, etc. One of the submission guidelines specifically says that Evil must not be promoted in any way and Good must win the day. This was in direct response to the whole "D&D is devil worship!" frenzy of the 80s.

I'll see if I can find it tonight.

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"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."

# Is Amia a setting that favours Good or Evil aligned characters?
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Amia's setting definitely favors good characters, or at least a majority of the people in Cordor define what is good or evil, the actual DMs don't seem to be enforcing the NPC rules. Characters are often scorned for having a damn torch out at night time by Cordorian guard PCs, but not the NPCs. PC guards will banish me for setting up a table, but the NPCs wont. There needs to be some work with guards, rather than saying that a character shouting his own news is classified as is disturbing the peace, while you have a child the news that DMs put into him. Why is the child okay? Cuz its an NPC kid.

# Should it favour either Good or Evil, which one if so, and why?
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It should be evil. Good doesn't allow fiends within a temple, that is like an act of pure desecration. Cordor, in my book, is evil as hell... After all... Creatures from hell live in Cordor.. Hehehe.

# Is DnD itself geared towards favouring Good or Evil PCs?
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DND supports the good adventuring type of guy, but it kind of depends on the DMs.

# Is Evil vs Good conflict RP currently working on Amia? If not, why doesn't it?
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No. I'll be the first to admit, my group is -pure- evil. (ya know, I run the group with the skull masks, and robes with black and rose colors). I can only act when I have 8+ level 20s+ on scene during action because the epic level good guys will receive a tell from their friends in danger. My group has to horridly outnumber any threat, that is why we win. I hate resorting to PVP and honestly would prefer NPC interactions with my group. All the other people seem to want is PVP, which it runs in the same routine.

1. Demon-freak in trouble by us (5 people)
2. Demon-freak send tell to magic lvl 30
3. Magic lvl 30 strolls by and confronts us giving us the obvious option to leave
4. We say no, lvl 30 buffs for five minutes while we all watch cuz we're not gonna just mutilate him.
5. lvl 30 attacks and gets brutillated. We win, and that is like the end of the RP.

It ends up with the PVP and they walk away or whatever. No consideration on weather we -wanted to kill the freak-, just PVP or gtfo and leave my freaky friend alone.


# Which setting is in your opinion most beneficial to RP, plots and character development, and why? One which emphasizes good, or one that emphasizes evil?
---
I prefer evil because it provides something to do, rather than watch all of these good characters that call themselves neutral sit on the streets just waiting to slaughter -any- evil group without giving them a chance at all to grow. When something evil happens, they instantly turn good, or if something good happens, they turn evil. Pride gaming leads to picking the side that will probably win.


# Are there mechanical disadvantages to either side, which makes it difficult to find a good balance between Good and Evil on Amia, which keeps the favour upon either side, which also shows in RP?
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The bad thing on mechanics is powerbuilding. I have to powerbuild to keep my group strong, and I honestly despise this. Naturally I'd be playing a cleric, but other people have me playing a standard fighter/weapon master. I feel forced into playing a powerbuild to control my organization.

# Which alignment do you prefer for your own characters, and why?
---
Evil because there is always more opportunity, and there is especially power. Unfortunately the power is rarely emulated through players. There is always a hope for power while I play my evil characters, I'm open to anything really.


I don't think it should be -all- good vs. evil, but some evil vs. evil vs. good. Mix it up a tad and have DMs help players actually starting RP rather than letting the power-corrupted adventuring guard remove anyone disturbing the absolute silence of the PCs, but you have to realize that it is a city, there is plenty of noise in a bustling city.

Groups like the Banites have yet to be seen.... I've not seen a lot of power out of them and they have a whole area to their own. When I walk around Cordor with 4+ of my people, its like I instantaneously have more power than Bane, which that shouldn't happen (I don't even have DM support, not that I need it with building my faction, but support against power-mongering players.). Factions like Bane should have a lot more organization as they are obviously faltering through their displays. If they do any displays in Cordor, I don't think the Cordorian Adventure guard shouldn't instantly ridicule them and banish them, but consider their power.

Meh, all i gotta say atm.

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My opinions:

#1. Amia favors Good. For the simple fact most people find evil annoying if everyone doesn't consent.

#2. If it has to favor one, Evil. The only time the general setting should all be goody/buddy-buddy is when the pc(s) have championed over the Evil, saved the princess, slayed the dragon, and opened a bar. Happily ever after. The End. (Doesn't work for a Persistant World server.)

#3. D&D is usually geared towards Good itself, but more often sets the player to be good in a world of evil. Yeah, with a few players and a set end to a story, encouraging and rewarding good often is fine, because it advances the plot to its definent end. When you do it in a PW, it kinda just discourages anyone from "going against the grain" so to speak, because they'll get called out for griefing or accused of some sort of @$$holery, deserved or otherwise.

#4. It's working like a square wheel. Well, it gets by, but every so often, people are reminded of just how limited it is to be either Good or Evil. With either group, as soon as a lowbie gets bet, its Revive => Cry about it in a town => Round up posey of your align and super-buff 'em => Find guys that did you in, all within the same half-hour. Not -every- attack on your character has to go avenged right that very moment, and I think Amia would be a lot more enjoyable if people would keep that in mind.

#5. A slightly corrupt, moderately evil settings is most beneficial to RP I've found. Evil folk arent smited every single time they live up to their align, and goodies actually have something to work towards. Right now, the story of most of Amia's conflicts goes "Evil shows up. Evil does some evil things to a few people. Folks get mad. Evil gets eliminated by every goodie/neutral on the island. Previously stated folk stand around in Cordor until another Evil thing comes up. Rinse and repeat."

Right now, the "superheroes" are all standing around in their super-world, stamping out the small, occasional spots of evilness as soon as they sprout up. Or at least as soon as they catch wind of it. The villians are pretty much like "Why bother? As soon as I start to do anything worthwhile, some uber-mob (pre-buffed), is just gonna show up at my doorstep and demand I quit, or if Im not as lucky, just pound me right where I stand, with only a few words of taunting.

#6. Paladin is a base class. Blackgaurd isn't. Simple as that. I'm actually glad Amia's uped the demonic summons and added some abilities, because otherwise BG is even more pitiful in the scope of Pally. Not saying the two should be even. Just saying I enjoy a conflict that lasts more than a few seconds on both sides.

#7. Despite my avid support of evilies, I actually prefer to play neutral character's who act in both ways, according to their own emotions or codes. My two major RPers at the moment are a CN and LN. They can act in either way, and usually are just as likely to. It's wicked fun, and it keeps things interesting. I play a main goodie too, but not quite often, as without his own plotline, there's no real point having him standing about aimlessly.

I -do- enjoy playing good just a tad bit more than evil though. But I want evil to be an actual challenge to fight against continually. Maybe that's why I can appreciate evil having a fighting chance.

good and evil are perspectives at best but in a world where demons lurk about more taken to extremes, in real life neutral is more good than either, so called good doesnt exist beyond people who heal or whatever, wars and politics are exploitations of emotion due to faith land again whatever, in dnd the same can be said, currently in amia theres a war, the salandran themselves i consider neutrals or good but both the main leaders have shown evil //txt limit damned psp

Favors good.

It should favor neither. I never understood why Amia favors good just because D&D does. Can't Amia break the mold to a certain degree? True Amia is bound by the restraints of the D&D system but can't Amia try at least to overcome it? Maybe this is just because of my perception of Amia. I have always viewed Amia as it's own game, a mod of NWN if you will. "I don't play NWN, I play Amia."

Favors good.

No. Because good always wins(in the long run), because Amia favors good, because NWN/D&D favors good.

Neutral because it gives both sides a even playing field. Maybe favor evil. I say -maybe- only because of the great evil vs good dynamic in Star Wars.

From what I understand, from what I have read on these forums before..yes. What they are I really don't know as I don't know the intimate mechanics of NWN/D&D.

1)Neutral Evil because it's easy... 2)because it gives a freedom to a character one cannot get playing a goodie. NE is all about me...ME! ME! ME! 3) because I'm pretty much NE in Real Life. It's not that much of a stretch for me to play. Sure I'm not totally evil in Real Life I care about friends & family, loved ones & world peace & all that good stuff but in the end I'm a very selfish person, because in the end it's all about me...ME! ME! ME!

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YANKEE ROSE
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First, the mechanical advantages:

Having played in good factions as well as evil ones, I would say, overall, with the exception of one or two good aligned factions, that the evil ones have the best gear shops around. There are one or two good aligned ones however, that ace anything evil's got. I am guessing that the reason most evil factions get the better goodies is because, whenever they have to face the music, they're ganged up on by neutral/good aligned factions...this I think is fair.

My characters are:

ilithira (neutral aligned)
driarry (neutral aligned)
elithiel (evil)
ilivarra (evil)

I have run one evil faction and have been in several different good and evil factions. I would have to say that roleplaying characters that are involved in wheels upon wheels of intrigue/plots/schemes, etc are far more fun to play than those that are not. This goes for whether one is good OR evil.

When I ran the Silent Blades, we had the most fun, infiltrating Ultrinnan (back then it was a completely closed city) and setting up our base in the "spiders web" and all the risk it posed would have to have been the best fun I've ever had. With the exception of the OOC issues we had with House Vandree that came back to claim back their turf. With the VDVM constantly sniffing us out and eventually capturing us (we'd killed several of their agents in previous months) and our forced eviction. It was evil versus evil, but it worked as a cool story. We knew that it would come to an end eventually but we were in it for the ride and we let the faction die at the appropriate time so that there -was- an end to the conflict.

So I shall re-iterate my findings. Its not good or evil that brings the maximum fun but the story one's involved in. A good plot, a good story, a good group to RP with and your chances of enjoyment go up massively.

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

1. From what I have seen, and I will admit to that being not that much, considering I have played here for only a few weeks, I think that Amia is in favour of good characters. I can certainly agree with Dark Immolation that people find evil annoying if everyone does not consent - I have experienced this first hand more then once. It also should be considered that since there is more good then evil characters (at least from what I have seen) that it is easier to party up or whatever with other good characters which I think is something that would lead to more people wanting to play as good. Afterall, if people are finding you annoying and/or you can't even get a party as easily, being evil begins to lose some of its appeal.

2. In my opinion it should not favour either. Both sides should be given an equal chance to do whatever it is they wish to do.

3. Good without a doubt. This is fine though, since the whole 'save the princess, slay the dragon' routine works just fine in general, it is only when it is applied to a pw, that having it favoured one way becomes problematic.

4. I can't really comment on this one too much. I personally have seen alot of evil vs evil and that has been great. I have however had the whole 'undead evil, unsummon now' thing happen many times, and that has so far always resulted in pvp. I don't mind that so much though, since win or lose in pvp I am happy to just go along with the outcome and roleplay from there. I am yet to see anything like entire groups comming out fully buffed ready to seek revenge or anything of that sort.

5. I'm all for a slighty corrupt evil setting, I think that would be great. This way both sides could be happy... though I wonder if this will ever happen.

6. Aside from the Paladin/Blackguard thing, which I don't think really matters that much anyway, I can't really think of anything.

7. I have always preferred evil, simply because it just seems to be... well, more fun. Those moments when your character is being evil and those around you are all playing along - those moments make it all worthwhile.

And yeah... first post - Hello everyone!

I'll let you guys in on the cold, hard truth.

Amia favors the good. Why? It is not because the DMs favor good. It is because we play off of what the playerbase has in its mind, and in the mind of the playerbase, good is the favored principle.

DMs cannot change this. The playing field is level from a mechanical standpoint. I can tell you that most of the antagonistic NPCs I use as a DM can be equally hated by good and evil alike, thus serving their role as antagonist (for whatever reason) to either alignment.

The only way for this to change is to somehow convince the vast majority of the playerbase that Amia =/= NWN/DnD. That the playerbase can be a creature of duality. If you want Amia to be a place where good and evil are favored equally by the playerbase, do not turn to the DMs or to the Developers - your war is with the mindset of your fellow players.

I would say Amia favors the morally ambivalent. You get all the perks of being accepted within normal society, and participate in defeating antagonists; and you can do those fun outrageous and reprehensible things (only occasionally). The best part is RPing self-conflict over what moral code you should follow today.

If you stick "I'm X" on yourself with a big rubber stamp, then you'll be taken as "X", where X is your alignment, race, Gender, Deity etc...

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Those trees won't burn themselves down. (by Maryn)

But in a way, we -could- turn to the developers. Currently, you can only go and slay Angels...there are not cities of NPC good aligned Knights, Haflings or whatnot to slay...this despite a significant proportion of the playerbase playing evil aligned PCs...

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

I don't think adding goody-goody mobsters will have such great impact on the community, and how they perceive the possibilities of alignments within the setting.


However, one thing I find rather interesting, is how the settlements are divided.

This is how I (read: my own subjective opinion) would perceive Amia's settlements / non-faction specific binding locations:

Good
------
Kohlingen
Winya
Bendir Dale
Brogdenstein Port
Wharftown
Mystra's Tower
Amia Forest - Grove
Nes'ek
Shine of Elistraee

"Neutral"
--------
Cordor (leans more towards good)
Uhm
Kampo's
Gulderand
Hidden Glade

Evil
----
Tarkuul
Ultrinnan
Wiltun
Underport
Zanshibon


I probably missed a couple in that list, which I might add as they pop up.

The "neutral" settlements almost always side with the "good" side of a conflict against "evil".

Cordor has done this many times, in particular. Banning the Lolthite Drow, the Banites, not hiring "evil" adventuring guards, etc etc.

All in all, I would say it's 14 (good + neutral) vs 5 (evil) settlements on the islands.

When I started playing on Amia, you didn't have Tarkuul, nor Underport, nor Wiltun.

The more or less only evil settlement or gathering point was Udos (which is now Ultrinnan), and Wyrmhold (which was more or less empty).


EDITx2: Added Shine of Elistraee, Hidden Glade and Zanshibon

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

Point 1 of Galen's discussion:
Good encompasses both those of good alignment and those of neutral alignment. Generally this is because the evil fellas seem to have conflicts with the neutral people's ideals thus the neutrals side with the good to prevent the evil from prevailing.

Or in one sentence: evil's outnumbered.



Point 2 of Galen's discussion:
To play an evil character, you need to have a special mindset:
-You need to think cunningly
-You need to think dirty
-You need to think like a bastard
-You need to think like pushing a pregnant woman down the stairs with a falcon punch to the stomach.
-You need to put yourself and your ambitions first to everything else.


Most people can't do it. Those who try and fail end up being chaotic stupid.

The majority of the non-evil playerbase will feel uncomfortable being involved as the victim in evil RP. As Mago said it's ego related 90% of the time (that last 10% is that someone genuinely doesn't like the torture scene and asks to be released on an OOC level)... but once someone feels uncomfortable they grief at an OOC level. Then that's where everyone else pounces: accusations are made, faeces are thrown and the DMs have to literally say "you're all little whiners. This party's over."



Point 3 of Galen's discussion:
The fact that death isn't permanent on Amia is a real kick in evil RP's gut.

It makes good vs evil RP meaningless.

Assassinations and interogation attempts fail because the person no matter how many times you kill them will be up crying out in Cordor the next day, squeeling your plans and your hide outs and identifying all your fellow evil buddies to the masses. No fear can be produced either by the evil blokes on the goodies for the same reason: when I can come back the next day, why should I fear for my life?

That being said, it's also a pain in the arse for good guys because if Darthion's gone around and slaughtered the whole server to finally be stopped by someone, Darthion will be walking around a day later continueing his slaughtering. The victory was meaningless.




Good vs Evil is meaningless really. It's better to have other reasons to fight over things.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

Because no Evil PC will be happy to accept the fac tthat the good players *will sit here and defend these places*. I say this every time the topic comes up.

Neutral tends to side with Good because Good Guys are Good People. As the TN farmer, would you want your next door neighbor to be Kohlingen, or Tarkuul? The answer is pretty clear there. Good Guys Help, Bad Guys Oppress. This is why the morally ambivalent tend to aid Good, because they're "Better for the world".

~~~

Yoss nailed it on the head and I have nothing else appropriate to say on the matter.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I'd like to also mention that it's not the best to blame the Devs in this instance. If you look at DnD lore, the sheer majority of cities support good aligned deities publicly with all the evil ones being:

-underground or secretive (Shar, Talona, Loviatar etc.)
-stuck in inhospitable regions (Zhentil Keep?)
-Hunted down continuously (particularly the case for orcs, goblinoids and giants)
-Banished from towns because they're extremist evangelists (Talosians, Cyricists, Banites, Velsharoonites etc.)


The Devs had the right idea by the lack of evil "cities" so to speak. Such things are extremely rare in FR (excluding the underdark).

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

And yet the Underdark makes up half the land mass of Faerun...

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

From a setting PoV, the average is Good/Neutral.

Why?

Well, Neutral's going to be your absolute mainstream.
Neutrality gets along alot better with Good than it does with Evil. The DMG puts it quite well, though I'll need to dig out the exact quote.
Neutral people don't concern themselves with good or evil; however most are smart enough it's better to have a good neighbour than an evil one.


That said, I don't see an issue with it, despite playing an absolutely cunning, ruthless evil priest (whom thankfully hasn't be ousted, yet) and an absolutely cunning, wiseass goodguy ranger (whom stands out like something vaguely offensive)

My personal preference is with the setting being inherantly good. This is because it's far easier to reign in a Good aligned or Neutral aligned person than it is an evil one, on an OOC Damage Control level.
How many good guys can you count that go on direct quests to assimilate and control other places? And of those, how many of them have the means to be brought in by superiors, comrades, allies, etcetera?
Perform the same equation to the majority of evil PCs and your percentage will likely be quite different.

Evil has to, as a result of having the setting against them, work in ways that (as mean as it sounds) can be somewhat-regulated to keep things both sane and plausible.



Despite all of this, however, I still see a good amount of political conflict over something that's got far more meaning than 'Good' and 'Evil'. Look at the Black Caravan plot for example; both good and evil side with it, and both good and evil work against it, because characters and groupings are acting upon something far more important. Ideals, religion, morals, creeds, all these things have a bit more solidarity than a raw 'I'm Good; You're Evil'.

The same can be said by just looking at how some factions interact. Both Mystra's Monolith and the Kelemvorite Church lean towards good to an extent; yet they were tearing eachother's throats out over idealistic and religious altercations.


At the end of the day, most of the time, Good Guys will win and Evil Guys will lose. Most of the time. Unless PC Choices on either side can stem the tide in the other direction, IMHO, that's how it should stick. If only because most of the time when Evil wins; there's no where to really go from there when considering things from a persistent world perspective.

If we could wipe the slate clean every few months or so, my opinion would be much different. However, keeping continuity and consistency in mind, I'll have to say that good most of the time is going to have the upper hand; simply due to the sheer nature of 'Good'. Even the best holy reign leaves gaps, because of their moral obligation to give chances, choice, etcetera. Freedom.
Evil tends to not permit that sort of freedom and thus makes it harder ICly for Good to really get its footing, and also gives a -real- kick in the pants to the Good Character players who may not be all that interested in the whole 'I'm suppressed and oppressed! halp!'. You think things are a pain in the arse OOCly when you're evil and good players are annoyed at you; try it when good players are constantly in your position without the real choice and are subjected to your constant evil presence and overpowering essence.


Evil Players sign themselves up for the oppression and the challenge. To apply the same to Drow; a key part of being Evil/Drow is the constant struggle. You need to be evil but you also need to be smart, tenacious, cunning, and at times outright ruthless to get your piece of the cake; even if it means tearing it from the clutches of someone else. It's a challenge ICly and OOCly.

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Mostly Retired

Can you script the factions so that they only attack evil/neutral pcs or something? I'm sure if its mechanically do-able, there will be a creative way forward...

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

The underdark is a separate category because the same thing applies for the underdark as it does for evil characters:


Everyone can try but not everyone succeeds in playing as an underdarker.


It could be because they're uncomfortable with the torture RP, it might be that they dislike the cut throat nature, it might be because they don't like the races in question or even the players on an OOC level. It could even be that there's not enough lesbian action down there. Underdarkers (not all of them, most) tend not to get along with surface races which separates them from the other evil characters.

If you want to play an evil or underdark character, you need to acknowledge the fact you're in the minority of the players. You will always be ganged upon when you're in the spot light and although you might get small victories, you're always going to lose the war. The approach you need to have is: I want to have some fun, I want others to share it with me. What can I do to make things interesting without causing grief?

Or atleast that's what I've done with the Dark Horde. I saw that elf players were screaming "I want some action, I'm bored" and I want to try and cater for their enjoyment and my own.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

It'd be a mechanical pain in the arse to do so, but that's not what Tormak's getting at.

TO do an applied example.



Evil People standing in front of and loitering around Zanshibon, 'Defending' the Abyss from Good Guys because their evil homies are there.

If that happened, the first thing you'd do is be pissed off and start bitching. Even if they PvP'd you and then let you through OOCly as the rules would require them to.

Evil people don't do that typically.


Good people would. If, for example, you could attack Kohlingen NPCs and they'd be Good Aligned spawns, I can guarantee good PCs would camp out around the exits and just wait - with good justification - to kill any evil person attacking such a place.

They'd have to let you through OOCly once you were dead, sure, to let you hunt. But I doubt that's a great consolation.

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Mostly Retired

you missed the point. This is a Bad IDea because X level 30 Paladins and Goodygoods will hang around this "spawn area" because it is ICly full of innocent people, of allies, of Good Guys and it is their job as PC Good Guys to defend them. This does not work. Either we must rule it OK for the good guys to do it and it edges on griefing and OOC control of a spawn zone and th badguys take it up the ass, or we rule it not OK and the good guys get laughed at IC and OOC because "man you guys suck, we just razed that village for the 3rd time today." "//STFU, the DMs won't let us. Stop harassing us over it." And then the good guys take t up the ass.

It's not a good idea.

EDIT: Ron beat me, yus.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

More than that, it is a bad idea.

But why does it have to be that way?

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YANKEE ROSE
-----------------

It's not. Galenson has, as always, an extremely skewed, extremely biased view of the situation.

By and large thoug,h there are very few times when evil players convincingly and ably pull off any sort of scheme that can have permanent consequences that the good guys don't immedaitely sniff out and crush. A lot of the time, guys, the Good Guys are just plain outsmarting you.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Because society always caters for the majority. Most of us aren't criminals or bad people on an OOC level so the majority of us are going to play neutral/good characters. Thus good will always win simply due to the world war tactic: the side with more bodies to throw wins.


You could have a star wars theme where evil are the majority and good are the minority but in all honesty it won't work. Good victories in those scenarios are -outstanding- when they happen but coz you can just click respawn, those 75 000 storm troopers you just massacred are rested and ready for round two.




What can I say. I think differently to everyone. This Australian heat you know

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

PotM. Ravenloft.

Works for that server. It's a very evil setting, where the good guys are oppressed and in minority.

Works out marvelously well.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

Ravenloft is 110% different than Amia. It is a different ideology, a different powerlevel, a different catering to players. IT's not a fair comparison, at all, Mago. People have different expectations in a Ravenloft Setting than they do in a Forgotten Realms settng. One is gothic, nearly White Wolf in it's view, the other is classic High Fantasy.

But then again, I have this giant peeve with people who walk in and say "Oh, I was on this other server and it all worked great here! We should do it here."

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

But Ravenloft is not a balance. Ravenloft's evil is its good, and it works well because they've managed to draw the right kind of players. Small playerbase who understand the principle.

We're a much larger and more diverse playerbase. The difficulties in having either a balance, or a total shift to supporting evil over good, are, as far as I'm concerned, insurmountable for you unless you want to get draconian and start excising huge portions of the playerbase who can't play along.

As I read some of the replies, I was given the impression that it was argued that you can't make a PW in an evil setting.

Which, as shown by PotM, you can.



If I am to be honest, I think that a lot of Amia's players, and DMs alike, are fixed with the idea of the Amian setting being aligned the way it currently is, and pretty much always has been. Thinking out of the box can prove to be difficult when you've been inside the box long enough.

_________________
Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Okay, I hate using examples of other servers but, heck, what else is there that's better to show how it CAN work.

On Arelith, in the Underdark (where 90% of the PCs ARE evil), you can go sack a Svirfneblin village on a regular basis. There, proof that's its achieveable. What, you think half the server's level 30s are going to go into the Underdark and defend the svirf village? It never happened on Arelith that way. What tended to happen is, a surfacer goes into the Underdark and is immediately set upon by every Underdark race there...basically, they were outnumbered and outgunned, 90% of the time and then you'd risk getting enslaved and sacrificed...the only ones who even dared to go down regularly for PvP type encounters were the Sheverashans.

It doesn't need to be a svirfneblin village, it could be a dwarven outpost..whatever....but it'd work in the UD where the table on alignments are turned...

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

That's what I said, Mago. You are up against that fixed mentality, and that is what you're fighting against. I called it, what, thirty posts ago?

Seems almost overwhelming to take on the entire playerbase. Although, been there... done that, even if the end result was messy.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

Takes guts to do what you do.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

yeah, it does, I did it myself for a while. and even though my character isn't evil anymore...still suffers from the consequences. but yeah, evil is fun for a while, then it gets old.

Copypasta of mine from the Things to Change thread you shouldn't have started because everything was fine right here:

On Arelith, the drow being able to do those quests you mentioned doesn't make the drow any more "evil". It is just something for them to do so they don't get bored. We have people for you to interact with here, and we don't need to give you stuff to do. You have stuff to do.

Sorry to say, but "scripted quests for evil dudes" are just as lame for making you evil or making Amia alignment balanced as "scripted quests for good dudes" are. The DM quests and plots and just your own day to day interaction with each other, whether we are present or not, are what really cements you as good or evil.

People don't even use the quests and areas we have now because they understand this principle. And now, thanks to me, you do, too.

Its just a hunting area, not a 'scripted quest' btw but I guess no from the DM team means no so I'll stop here and go back to killing other evil critters and pvp'ing good guys with my evils...

Which, brings us full circle to Mago's point...given the amount of OOC hassle it is to play an evil villain when engaged in PvP with good guys, maybe we should all just play the game against each other? Evil vs. Evil? Let the good guys do the usual huggy thing in Cordor...and keep everyone happy?

Actually, I find the best way to play evil when against good is to let them strike first. Then they can't turn around and whinge when you win...well they can but then they're just being sore losers...

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

actually the best kind of evil is using your wealth and connections to aquire more wealth and agents. and send your agents in to do the dirty work....and no one will be any the wiser that the mastermind...is that sweet, innocent looking guy with blonde hair pokeing and giggling with that female in cordor square.

Aha! I had a feeling it was Raven's Bluff:



Inside Raven's Bluff, The Living City pp 63-64, 1990

See also this which briefly covers some of the allegations surrounding D&D and it's supposed connection to Satanic cults.

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"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."

This, added with the fact that so many of the "Evil" players think that being "Evil" means that you have to beat up other "Evil" people to be an "Evil" person.

They can't work with/manipulate/converge together to gang up on "Good" people.

Ugh. "Evil" people can actually be quite "Good" people, you know. But no, actually, most people DON'T know that..... at least not the "Evil" people I've experienced.

And a lot of them are dumb. Honestly, my own characters included.

It also comes down to a general misunderstanding of what it means to be "Good" or "Evil".

In essence, the difference between Good and Evil is that the former is selfless while the latter is selfish.

Most people seem to think that the Good guys are always polite and the bad guys are always rude and obsessed with killing. A Good guy can be rude and abrasive and still be Good. The Evil guy can be polite and good humoured and still be Evil.

"i r teh ebil i iz eatah ov teh baybayz" is not only boring, it's also an incomplete view.

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"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."

Good = Cares about others
Neutral = Self centred (or more rarely cares about the Balance)
Evil = Selfish + Powerhungry and doesn't care about others

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

Selfish and self-centered are the same thing. A Neutral character is a fence-sitter in the sense that they are just as likely to be selfless as they are to be selfish depending on the circumstances - they are neither Good nor Evil, but in between. The single most unpredictable alignment is Chaotic Neutral because you can never know what those crazy kids are gonna do next.

I would also describe Neutrals as Utilitarians in the sense that they will knowingly put an innocent to death, or let the guilty go free, if it serves their greater purpose.

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"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."

A monk is self centred. It is not the same as selfish. Selfish means you think of yourself first over others. Self-centred means you are focused on your own development, but not necessarily against others.

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

A Monk is centered on self, but not self-centered.

A Monk's ultimate goal is to be one with the universe and that is what they strive for within the bounds of the law.

Selfish and self-centered mean the same thing - the universe revolves around you.

It's a subtle, but significant difference.

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"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."

...I am suprised that no one answered this.
Good or Evil factions aside, it's HARD running a faction, DM support or not.
Sure, if you've a group of 4-7 people that are all your friends it's a diffrent matter.
You don't have to count in:
-Timezones.
-The characters' goals (beyond just existing with an evil mindset.)
-Internal struggles.
-OOC stuggle/bias.
(Sure, some of them are fun to RP, but they're still a time consuming factor.
The same goes for Drow houses, I've seen some 'fall' just because of the time zones.
The Eternal Order/anyothergoodfaction have a lot of my respect, wether they're metagaming troubles or not isn't the deal here, they're keeping a big faction alive, in war, bringing conflict into the server.
Here's an advice from someone who ran a faction of 36 people, try raising the number, AND making events for your faction to run, story-lines etc.
See how that works for you.
And have more appriciation for the Banite players, Scylla's player is hardworking, and the OOC bias coming from "Metagaming Goodies" Is not helping much.
(For those who wonder, the faction was the "Mark" run by MoonHowl, Geist Silverheart and Redeye on LoL, which does not exist anymore.)
No offense meant, I should meet your evil faction sometime.

--



You can see which player suffers from the Evil RP, and be more "Soft" with them, those who don't take offense beacuse of what your character does accept evil RP/betrayal/abuse/torture easily, and RP, instead of flaming you in glowing green messeges.
Because you can't really play a true chaotic evil, having a whole server hate you is much worse than having 2-3 people that think you an evil person IRL. (Which I'm not, I'm actually nice.)

--

I prefer evil beaucse it has conflict, it's fun to play, even if ultimately, you lose. But honestly.. the last non-arena PvP I've had is a Drow shooting a DC40 Wail of the Banshee at Willow (Which, even if I ended up rolling a 20, the will will still be too low), and that was about three months ago.

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haddyDrow

The sky is green!

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

i find the key difference to be in motives

LE might give money to charity to provide a cover and make people think he is good
LN might give money to charity for a tax write off
LG might give money to charity out of the goodness of their heart.

charity gets money in all three circumstances, but the reason they get it is very different. It is this difference right here that I find very important.

Oftentimes when I was in a drow party hunting on the surface, we would come across a surfacer party, pvp would ensue, and the times that we would win, usually the females would say something like dispose of the bodies in the river, ect... However, I would always ICly raise them afterwords, if only to ICly rub it in their faces that we hold their lives in the palms of our hands. Incidentally, I have had very few ooc complaint issues in PVP. Only one, really, and that person was being an asshat anyway.

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Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare'
Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia
Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words