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This trend has come and gone throughout my 4½ years playing on this server, yet, as of recently, it seems to have stepped up quite significantly.

Have all PC's on Amia suddenly become immortals?

During the past days, I've had numerous encounters where characters have ICly stated that it doesn't matter if they're killed, they'll just pop back up, as if nothing happened.

As if, they can't be hurt, can't be damaged and they can't suffer consequences of death.

To be honest, that type of IC response annoys the shit out of me.

How is that RP'ly justified at all? Even with Amia's rather ridiculous OOC implement of pretty much no repercussions due to the event of death, specially in PvP.

When an imposing character, evil or not, makes a lethal threat, which gets the response of "I could care less, doesn't matter if you're the most powerful and intimidating character on Amia, you can't do anything to me anyway" I see it as the equivalent of ignoring RP.

How many times does a character have to be killed, in order to cause a rather viable reaction of fear and self-preservation? How many times does one have to RP the intimidating aspect, thoroughly and appropriately, in order for it to have an effect?

Have we all become immortals, and should start acting accordingly IC?

Resurection is common knowledge among the adventuring populace. I don't beleive it's a concept of "death" that's actually the problem of what you're describing Mago.

It should be kept in mind it's not so much that you are dying, in FR/Amia. It's that you're being made to die, which usually, constitutes serious, serious, SERIOUS pain. I'm not talking ressurection sickness, yada yada, I'm talking that sure, you'll get up after getting killed, but the fact that you, as a character, still feel every stab, ever gut in your gullet, every blaze of flesh-searing magic before you die should be reason to fear threats and such enough.

Experienced characters, especially the more learned ones, will likely not "fear" death. But neither will/should they think themselves immortal either. Just because you don't fear dying (from previous experience and whatever), does not mean that you don't fear, or are cautiously evasive of the pain that usually goes along with being killed.

So my two cents is this: characters who are experienced adventurers most likely would not have the same perception of death as we do, in our Zero-lives-to-go world. But never should they think themselves immortal(seeing as their often occuring deaths disproves that), unless they're insane, and never should a player forget to put themselves in the shoes of their PC and the pain they would most certainly feel.... unless they're crazy. The PC, not the player. :twisted:

Bravo Mago and seconded. While PvM death is one thing, and really shouldn't be either not reacting in /some/ way to a PvP death really is ignoring the RP. There should be some kind of repercussion when a PC is killed as such.

In the case of my guy Kichirou for the example he ticked of the Imperceptor and got killed off. Effect from that was he was left dead for 11 IG months until he was called back by the power of Bane's own hand at the request of his faithful. His memories of things that might make him think twice about being disloyal wiped from his memory and he's turned to Bane fully.

This is an extreme example perhaps but to the point. If you're killed in a PvP, more so if you agree to it as a point of plot you should consider how it would effect your PC in someway that will make for some twists and epic RP down the road.

People are just spoiled by Amia. If some evil character comes along they probably think "meh, PvP me and leave me alone so I can return to my previous RP".

Make PvP respawn ouchy. *lits the fuse and runs giggling*

Sounds like someone is trying to get back at you with the only tool that's left to him - since he probably won't win the fight. And that is making it look like you're powerless.

It can be frustrating, and many factions and people are or have been guilty of it, from Forest campers, to Banites to bandits and paladins. Part of the rub is it isn't realistically enforceable, as much as I'd like, to say "you lost, you can't come back for (time period)", so that defeat does at least carry some weight. I know the idea of scripting in some death penalties has been brought up, but I'm not aware of any progress made on it. Ideally, scripting shouldn't even be required, and a good roleplayer should be able to manage appropriate defeat.

It requires work between the winner and the loser though, beyond "hostile > kill". I'm much more likely to work with someone after a PvP encounter if they're not just a scumbag junkie looking for a fix. No one wants to work with someone who is obviously PKing you for their own enjoyment rather than to add to an overall story-arch.

And overall? Yes, the majority of my PvP encounters have been with junkies who genuinely did make me feel like they were only out to up their PK count and PvP rather than weave a story. So, I feel no reason to give them any credit.

Though, intimidation isn't always going to provoke a fear effect for every character. But, that's an entirely diffferent situation.

Y'know Mago: If it wasn't for Warrick having ICly seen the light of staying alive as opposed to risking his life against Darthion, I WOULD have probably have had him leave his house and maintain the challenge.

Also, last I checked, I do have one permanently destroyed character to my credit. *admittedly his end wasn't directly after a PvP encounter, but one was the trigger to what brought about his ultimate demise*.

I know one reason why death has little meaning on Amia. It's because there is very rarely a time when you need to stay alive for more than just the sake of being the one still standing at the end of a fight.

If there are more lives at stake than their own, then maybe your character would have a good reason to want to live and avoid the consequences that their death would bring.

But I can't honestly see there being any situations like that unless they're deliberately engineered. Good luck with that.

I've had one of my characters stay dead and rped being dead and waiting for someone to come by and pick up my body where I lost at for 1 rl day then followed with that rp of being dead to a faction for 2 rl days. Being dead is a fun option i wish people can see.

Scimiter wrote:

Bravo Mago and seconded. While PvM death is one thing, and really shouldn't be either not reacting in /some/ way to a PvP death really is ignoring the RP. There should be some kind of repercussion when a PC is killed as such.

In the case of my guy Kichirou for the example he ticked of the Imperceptor and got killed off. Effect from that was he was left dead for 11 IG months until he was called back by the power of Bane's own hand at the request of his faithful. His memories of things that might make him think twice about being disloyal wiped from his memory and he's turned to Bane fully.

This is an extreme example perhaps but to the point. If you're killed in a PvP, more so if you agree to it as a point of plot you should consider how it would effect your PC in someway that will make for some twists and epic RP down the road.

PvM or PvP death is death if it does not effect one it should not effect the other, as for your case of picking to be dead thats up to you if the raise from other players work.

with all the damn heal potions around its magical Morphine, and now think of pain thresholds, what hurts someone alot might not even effect you now throw in magic to the fix, undead,golems and who all knows what dont feel pain, and if someone is dev crit they would not feel any pain would they?

but death has no effect because if it did, PVP built people would run the show even more then they allready do *dev crits* "ok your dead now you cant log on your char for a week real life time"

I also see people saying your beheaded, raise scroll wont work on you, well I think the rules said something like

torture, such as *Stabs him in the eye * may happen if all parties agree. stuff that's not consented to but happens for the sake of the story will be said to happen in a fade to black . I belive it also effects removal of body parts/organs.

seeing how the removing of the head has no real long term story to it like someone who wants to get his hand choped off and RP not having a hand anymore would be diffrent.

Quote:

During the past days, I've had numerous encounters where characters have ICly stated that it doesn't matter if they're killed, they'll just pop back up, as if nothing happened.

Ughhhh

I wag my finger at every single one of them and sigh because my hands are tied and I can't do anything more to them.

My first post is an example of how a player put into such a situation can make for some epic RP without having to perma the PC.

I am not say that every encounter has to result in earth shattering or plot changing things such as he comes back without a hand or a eye or such.

Though if it does happen instead of considering that it's returned right away the player might play the handicap for a short time till they can perhaps reach the sally temple and have it restored. Creating RP rather then just writing it off right away.

Once again Kichirou is a extreme example but by the choice I made on his RP I've seen five other threads be born in /other/ people's RP. By playing it up you can give someone else the chance to make thier own plot most interesting.

Face it. Role Play is at a certain level of... professionalism on Amia and it isn't going to go up. I've been on plenty of role play servers of all different kinds and I know for a fact that RP usually only goes down hill.
But that aside. The only way people will take death seriously is if they concequences are more drastic, like not being able to log on for a day or more. Or worse/better always permakill.

The fact is how strickter the dead punishment the more power builds with hips you're gonna get. Because everyone wants to win and if not they want to run away and hide.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

During the past days, I've had numerous encounters where characters have ICly stated that it doesn't matter if they're killed, they'll just pop back up, as if nothing happened.

Ughhhh

I wag my finger at every single one of them and sigh because my hands are tied and I can't do anything more to them.

DMs have banned people befor because people were just running around killing people(wont list the banned peoples names) but in cases like that can you blame people for not caring as much if they get killed like we all know no bad B-mia got when DMs had to add a rest menu script to send a SoS to A-mia for DMs to save them.

and NPCs never run out of heal potions and raise scrolls so most people know someone can just walk up to just about any town and buy one.

being raised was also brought up in PVP topics how people were mid fight raising thier friends with scrolls and kept fighting its was 100% legit DM said(think they also said it was lame), so people are used to geting killed and raised.

No, I'm wagging my finger at the people who treat respawning and immortality as IC, not the killers.

Quote:

we all know no bad B-mia got when DMs had to add a rest menu script to send a SoS to A-mia for DMs to save them.

No, it was added on insistence from several DMs that we are blind to the other server. It works from A to B and B to A.

I'm not asking for people to start inflicting penalties onto their character -after- being killed, or even permakilling their characters.

What I'm asking, and expecting from players, is for them to at least show some humility towards the risk of suffering a death. May it be from PvP or PvM.

It feels like I'm running in a hamster wheel atm.

Threats, imposed fear, destruction, death. Over and over... yet the response is just... "Meh, your RP or actions won't affect me anyhow, so go ahead, do your best fatty."

TormakSaber wrote:

No, I'm wagging my finger at the people who treat respawning and immortality as IC, not the killers.

but if the killers are just doing it to kill with I'm evil, or I'm good. and it happens near every day its not so much RP as PVP arena and it is IC, NPC are handing out raise scrolls its part of the game is it not? staff also added in respawn plane thing.

Quote:

we all know no bad B-mia got when DMs had to add a rest menu script to send a SoS to A-mia for DMs to save them.

No, it was added on insistence from several DMs that we are blind to the other server. It works from A to B and B to A.

maybe so but the autokill script inside wiltun from when people would kill players on spawn-in.

hadeismetirion wrote:

The only way people will take death seriously is if they concequences are more drastic, like not being able to log on for a day or more. Or worse/better always permakill.

The fact is how strickter the dead punishment the more power builds with hips you're gonna get. Because everyone wants to win and if not they want to run away and hide.

and in turn powerbuild PVPers run the server.

You know why they'd run it, if they even did? Because all the "immortals" would run their mouths and get killed, not because the "powerbuild PvPers" started it.

Mr Mago wrote:

Threats, imposed fear, destruction, death. Over and over... yet the response is just... "Meh, your RP or actions won't affect me anyhow, so go ahead, do your best fatty."

maybe try something other then killing for people like that, if you were a paladin fighting a lich and you did not know where his souljar was you could kill him every day for years and he would pop back would he not?(so he wont care)

now a lich has no frinds so you cant turn them against him or lie about him,propaganda...ect, but you could make his blessing a curse by imprisoning him(enjoy eternity in a box)

so try outside the box stuff, ganking people just does not effect all people.

Mr Mago wrote:

I'm not asking for people to start inflicting penalties onto their character -after- being killed, or even permakilling their characters.

What I'm asking, and expecting from players, is for them to at least show some humility towards the risk of suffering a death. May it be from PvP or PvM.

It feels like I'm running in a hamster wheel atm.

Threats, imposed fear, destruction, death. Over and over... yet the response is just... "Meh, your RP or actions won't affect me anyhow, so go ahead, do your best fatty."

Oddly, I empathize with that Mago, I do.

One thing that needs to be understood about fear reactions, is that not everyone even if they had something to lose, is going to react the same bloody way.

corypx wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Threats, imposed fear, destruction, death. Over and over... yet the response is just... "Meh, your RP or actions won't affect me anyhow, so go ahead, do your best fatty."

maybe try something other then killing for people like that, if you were a paladin fighting a lich and you did not know where his souljar was you could kill him every day for years and he would pop back would he not?(so he wont care)

now a lich has no frinds so you cant turn them against him or lie about him,propaganda...ect, but you could make his blessing a curse by imprisoning him(enjoy eternity in a box)

so try outside the box stuff, ganking people just does not effect all people.

And how many of the "immortals" will let you impirson them definitely? How many of their OOC - IC friends will listen to propaganda?

The lich may always come back, btw, but the Paladin will keep smiting it. Bit different situation.

TormakSaber wrote:

You know why they'd run it, if they even did? Because all the "immortals" would run their mouths and get killed, not because the "powerbuild PvPers" started it.

This.

xordae wrote:

Sounds like someone is trying to get back at you with the only tool that's left to him - since he probably won't win the fight. And that is making it look like you're powerless.

And It worked.

I seriously hope you;'re not saying it's a good idea to do this. Because it's not.

Honestly I don't see the big deal with this. I personaly think the issue is personal view of things. Of course if a person loses they do not want to stay dead and just sit there and of course if you kill someone for a good reason you do not want to see them walking around cordor the next moment. What is the solution to this? Don't talk to them and pretend your eyes are tricking on you that there is no way that guy is there, and the other person just don't talk to them. Sorta just take a time out from one another.

Every fear reaction won't be the same. That's kinda a given. But to not have ANY reaction at all? Come on. Roll your will, or I don't buy it. Death, even temporary, is scary. and there's (in any kind of reality) no guarantee that someone will find your body. Raise Dead only works for so long. After that...you're kinda up shit crick without a paddle. People (yes, me too) tend to ignore some of the facts based on an ooc knowledge that "F*ck it, I can get a raise at reset." but...that's not how the world works.

TormakSaber wrote:

I seriously hope you;'re not saying it's a good idea to do this. Because it's not.

Nope, but it's been proven now as a tool to get that jerk who keeps PvPing you to run to the forums and cry in frustration.

555444333 wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

I seriously hope you;'re not saying it's a good idea to do this. Because it's not.

Nope, but it's been proven now as a tool to get that jerk who keeps PvPing you to run to the forums and cry in frustration.

Showing colours again, Numbers, I can see.

What? I was just commenting on the baseness of some people. You can wave your flag declaring your weaknesses wherever you like. Mines folded and locked in my chest.

You're a dick, Numbers. And I'd appreciate if this topic could be clear of petty attempts at personal insults when and where they are not called for.

Wouldn't a script for when set to can only be raised once per reset when pvped. Like the other options, but instead with a time limit? Dms?

Last edited by Alge on Sun, Nov 15 2009, 23:08 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Mr Mago wrote:

555444333 wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

I seriously hope you;'re not saying it's a good idea to do this. Because it's not.

Nope, but it's been proven now as a tool to get that jerk who keeps PvPing you to run to the forums and cry in frustration.

Showing colours again, Numbers, I can see.

Do i really need to point out something about the entire petty insults thing?

Personally i think death should gradually be made harder to come back from depending on how often they've been killed.
Also after you've been threatened upteem times by the usual evil doer coming to kill everyone, there once again is a lack of fear. It's like if your scared of flying but you constantly fly, it'll eventaully go away.
Also, walking into an area your obviously not welcome is asking for a hostile confrontion.
Furthermore (I know i should stop) you need to imagine what just happened to the character beforehand which could effect their judgement at the time, making them more weak (can't rememeber the proper word) or tougher agaisnt certain situations.

This is just a rather silly arguement because it wont really reach an end, so instead of argueing like this why don't we just come here to relax like it was designed to?

Quote:

Also after you've been threatened upteem times by the usual evil doer coming to kill everyone, there once again is a lack of fear. It's like if your scared of flying but you constantly fly, it'll eventaully go away.

yeah and you only do this because you know OOCly you just respawn or whatever and come back.

Quote:

This is just a rather silly arguement because it wont really reach an end, so instead of argueing like this why don't we just come here to relax like it was designed to?

No, it's not, because I'm not here to let you picnicking socializing dorks direct the route of a server just because "ew, I have to be in conflict."

TormakSaber wrote:

No, it's not, because I'm not here to let you picnicking socializing dorks direct the route of a server just because "ew, I have to be in conflict."

Isn't it possible for a happy medium? A solution to how often you can be killed per reset and brought back?

Mr Mago wrote:

555444333 wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

I seriously hope you;'re not saying it's a good idea to do this. Because it's not.

Nope, but it's been proven now as a tool to get that jerk who keeps PvPing you to run to the forums and cry in frustration.

Showing colours again, Numbers, I can see.

Aside from the obvious personal swing here, I see what he means. Personally I don't care if my characters get killed, 'cause chances are they were asking for it. They will be annoying in a city they know is going to protect them, they won't go outside with someone who they know is going to kill them and it is their right to behave that way. If a guard in, say Cordor throws them out, so be it, but untill that happens, well that's that.

As for the fear of death, of course there should be a reponse other than "I'll live forever yayayay!" but if everything on Amia is to stay in character, what do you want them to say when they've died a hundred times before and always gotten up thanks to their patron deity? And considering that many of them probably don't count on getting to feel Darthion's beating for more than 6 seconds, why should they scream and yell and beg for forgiveness?

I do see the lameness in it, yes, and I wouldn't dream of acting like that myself, but I don't see how reacting to the very high chance of getting ressurected if killed is "wrong." Plenty of characters I know of won't even bother with killing people anymore, it's just too reduntant. They plot and scheme instead, making life suck for their target in other ways.

It's possible. Too little and it's open for abuse in some manner. Too much and it won't mean anything. And there always needs to be a DM way to override it for special situations.

Of course any restriction, making death mean *anything* will have the picnickers up in arms, because how dare conflict come to my happy little tea party , nevermind we have it every day in the same high traffic area?

EDIT: And your "high chance of ressurection" isn't even IC most of the time. It's due to the fact that a PC who kills you and takes you can't permakill you, or the fact that you're going to get a free res on reset. You're abusing OOC courtesy mechanics to affect IC events, and that's dumb.

I'ld like to see it be at a higher risk as well, but not to the point that people will abuse it. Clearly a dm can not live on amia and watch ever pvp situation and keep tallies of who was just killed. More I think about it the more occ talk between the two people is more vital so they can come to terms and work things out so they both are happy.

TormakSaber wrote:

EDIT: And your "high chance of ressurection" isn't even IC most of the time. It's due to the fact that a PC who kills you and takes you can't permakill you, or the fact that you're going to get a free res on reset. You're abusing OOC courtesy mechanics to affect IC events, and that's dumb.

If I was referring to my OOC knowledge of 100% raise certainty, I would've said that. You can be damn sure that all of my characters who've died more than thirty times and gotten back on their feet, feel 90% sure that they'll get back up the next time, too.

TormakSaber wrote:

It's possible. Too little and it's open for abuse in some manner. Too much and it won't mean anything. And there always needs to be a DM way to override it for special situations.

Of course any restriction, making death mean *anything* will have the picnickers up in arms, because how dare conflict come to my happy little tea party , nevermind we have it every day in the same high traffic area?

EDIT: And your "high chance of ressurection" isn't even IC most of the time. It's due to the fact that a PC who kills you and takes you can't permakill you, or the fact that you're going to get a free res on reset. You're abusing OOC courtesy mechanics to affect IC events, and that's dumb.

The last point on this is one I am going to agree with wholehartedly, and would be GLAD to see some sort of movement from both DMs and players alike to make the move to more potential risk for permanent death.

However at the same time is it not the intent of Amia to cater to it's audience as a whole, and not facets of it?

Especially Tormak's edit: it's metagaming to assume you'll live, because resurrection is very rare and specific. You'd be unlikely to end up in clerical hands if you died, and you'd never come back if you were burned to ashes - unless some high priest thought you were important enough to call on his deity's highest favor. So yes, I do call no fear of death an abuse of OOC knowledge.

Mr Mago wrote:

When an imposing character, evil or not, makes a lethal threat, which gets the response of "I could care less, doesn't matter if you're the most powerful and intimidating character on Amia, you can't do anything to me anyway" I see it as the equivalent of ignoring RP.

This is more or less how my character responds to threats, only you have to rephrase it. He'd be more like "I could care less, doesn't matter if you're all powerful and scary, I'm too stubborn and willful to just let someone push me around without a struggle even if they can kick my ass, bring it."

But I try to RP death as having a negative impact on my character physically, beyond the dying part I mean. Some people who have RPed with me know that I do this regularly, if I get raised more than once or twice, through "divine intervention" or just a plain old scroll, I tend to RP it as making my character physically weaker, disoriented, and certainly incapable of fighting or of any noteworthy mental exertion for a while afterward. I openly encourage people to do stuff like this.

Further, even if you disregard the long-term impact of death aka permanent end of existence, dying isn't fun. Being stabbed, gutted, set on fire, beaten to death, electrocuted, etc. is PAINFUL and NOT FUN (unless your character is one of those BDSM types I guess). Even if death isn't permanent, the general mindset should be to try to avoid it. Again my character tends to try to avoid death as much as he possibly can, and is generally pretty good at it. Granted he does have a stubborn streak that doesn't let him backdown from bullies or people who are doing something strongly against his principles, but he avoids fights that he doesn't think he can win and that he doesn't feel he's a part of, because he doesn't want to die. Case in point, there have been times where he was informed of assaults by Banites on Bendir Dale. My character -hates- the Banites. However since Bendir is not his city and he isn't confident he would be able to survive the fight or contribute to it significantly in any way, he chooses not to get involved.

My problem, in addition to the general problem Mago has with this fault, is that the people that most often echo sentiments of this type are the ones who most often get killed for stupidity, blatant aggression, and lawbreaking. Good or bad, people are not being punished suitably for negative, ill-planned behavior. As a guard I find it frustrating because it is yet another "threat" we have that is totally empty. We can ban people for a few days, but nobody is intimidated by this (you can tell by the number of repeat offenders). We can fine people but we can't fine them a lot and lets face it, 5000 is small change for most people who have been playing for more than a month. We can, in rare cases, execute people or have them put on trial and executed...but they just come back. Sure usually the execution comes with a ban that gets them killed if they come back but that really hasn't stopped anyone.

The problem with death in PvP in particular having no consequences is that it removes a certain factor of caution and realistic planning and discretion from the RP of players who are not afraid of it. Sometimes it can be interesting, but it honestly pisses me off when I threaten someone, or talk about killing someone to end them as a problem, and the response is generally "Death solves nothing" and not in the sense that it creates problems but in the literal sense that it does nothing at all to ease the problem. That -really- pisses me off when an attitude like that becomes the dominant one on a realm.

I'll stop now before my rant leads me to start foaming at the mouth or something.

So what my character has learned IC is only valid knowledge for him/her if I'm not aware of an OOC mechanic that has to do with it?

Well, you would have to assume that your character knows that for every dead adventurer who has the wonderful luck of being raised from the dead, five hundred people aren't so lucky. Of course this isn't what you see in game, but I think you must apply suspension of disbelief here and assume your character is at just as great a risk of permanent death everytime.

Sure, that's true enough. But wouldn't it then be reasonable for him to assume that someone or something finds him a hell of a lot more important than those 500 others? And wouldn't it be just as reasonable of him to count on it happening again?

Add in affect where you die. Sometimes I think it is best to not relog for a week because how distant from a city others when killed in a inn feel being raised wouldn't be a big deal since I could pay the cost when I was raised and assume a common person would notice items of wealth on me and hope for a reward. Just my view.

IronAngel wrote:

Especially Tormak's edit: it's metagaming to assume you'll live, because resurrection is very rare and specific. You'd be unlikely to end up in clerical hands if you died, and you'd never come back if you were burned to ashes - unless some high priest thought you were important enough to call on his deity's highest favor. So yes, I do call no fear of death an abuse of OOC knowledge.

I'd argue if you've died fifty to one hundred times and come back every single one of them you may be a bit blasé about it ... you've empirical evidence that every time you have died you've been raised, and you know you can buy scrolls by the thousand.

That said, none of my characters treat it that way, but it seems unfair calling empirical observation available to the character metagaming from the player.

Yeah, and why did you come back... free reset raise? Free PvP raise?

Yeah, THAT'S IC...

That's not why my character knows he'll come back. That's why I know it.

I am not counting PvM death because most treat it as knockout anyway.. but if one of my chars had died 50-100 times in PvP, I'd retire him for the sheer stupidity of it.

TormakSaber wrote:

Yeah, and why did you come back... free reset raise? Free PvP raise?

Yeah, THAT'S IC...

My character knows that they were killed, and my character knows that they're alive - in order for the information to not be IC available, do they not know they were killed or not know they are alive?

Mortality and You.

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