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Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 16:27 PM 

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I thought the DD wings were like a dragons? You know ... leathery?

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 17:35 PM 

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"Thin" doesn't necessarily mean "flimsy" in this regard. Read a quote from the Draconomicon:

"A dragon's wings consist of a membrane of scaleless hide stretched over a framework of strong but lightweight bones. Immensely powerful muscles in the dragon's chest provide power for flight."

Also, there are certain kinds of dragons - those that have wings connected all the way down their spines to the end of their tails, who cannot fold their wings the same way as others due to only having "modified frill spines" which make all but the primary limb connected by the shoulder capable of no more than "limited movement". Copper, brass, and gold dragons are examples of this.

I am a fan of this rule, if only because a dragon-kin or an avariel or any other winged beast cannot physically fold their wings so close to their backs that there is no indication whatsoever of the wings. The way the model in-game looks when you put a cloak over your wings makes it appear that there is nothing between the cloak and your character's back. And that is just silly.

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RaveN
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 18:36 PM 

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Considering a cloak isn't neccessarily the only thing they'd be under I have a hard time really buying this in general. Fullplate is not a catsuit, and it shouldn't be forgotten when taking things into consideration. It actually doesn't always need to rest (and doesn't) rest body tight.

As far as I know, there's never been an animal except the penguin which can't fold its wings seamlessly on its back. This at most, even with dragon wings.. (which aren't actually that thick.) plus maybe a small sternum apparatus from the physiological changes of growing the wings is going to be at MOST 4-6 inches off their back. I personally think it's less, because even that would simply look ridiculous. That considered, it seems obvious to me that hiding them if you spend a tiny bit more effort or buy a different plated suit wouldn't be a challenge at all, especially considering all of the other ridiculous outfits and shit people do and wear.

Hell, I know this is a funny example, but if anyone's seen Dogma, that's pretty much good enough for me. In my opinion, wing density isn't even an issue here, as it doesn't matter with the ample room afforded by your armor and cloak.

Then again, this argument is almost moot regardless, because by the time you've gotten wings, you've gained so many other draconian features that it is almost virtually impossible to conceal your differences anyways.

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PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 19:38 PM 

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I have seen dogma! And I approve of your post!

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Herr Delta Houdini
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 19:54 PM 

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I don't think this is a bad thing, myself. Other than that I'm very much neutral toward it. I think that maybe, if it's not already, the DM team could discuss the WYSIWYG rule. Obviously in general you follow that, but there are things that don't fit in with that, such as specific physical appearances, so thinking on that rule more I'd suggest trying to identify and clearly state where the line is drawn with it, if possible.

For example, the whole cloak thing, it's not realistic to hide wings in such a fashion is what's being said, but then Needled brought up about full plate, I see the point, I doubt it would be easy to use full plate and have wings, but there may be work arounds for such, but how do we differentiate between keeping things believable without shooting people in the foot so to speak (to be fair, they lose no mechanical advantages and are only pushed in to dealing with the consequences of their appearance, how ever that may be taken) and just nitpicking because not every little thing is realistic or believable (it is a fantasy game, though. It would be not only ironic but also nonsensical to strive for full on realistic things. We'd have to lose all our monstrous creatures and fantasy beings if that was the complete aim).

So clear ruling on WYSIWYG and its boundaries beyond what we currently have may help.

But the part about the film Dogma, I was of the impression that they could 'sprout' their wings when they so choose or some such. As is shown, they don't bring them out until late in the film and considering they are 'higher beings' if you like, they quite possibly had something that allowed them to bring the wings out regardless of attire, maybe for the sake of not making things overly complicated and having to have an explanation for everything, there's attention to detail, but then there's over-thinking/analysing everything and OCD.

I personally think the cloak ruling isn't a bad idea, like said, it's not a major compromise from what I can tell, but I think you have to draw a line with how far you go with things like this for the sake of simplicity and avoiding over complication and additional headache. The cloak rule is simple as saying 'this is the rule, you follow' and all the DM needs to do is check the character sheet in most cases of DD's. But if you start ruling over everything, such as the full plate thing, it may be considerably more work to be watching over anyone and everyone who may have wings and decide to throw on heavy armour even though it's against the rules.

I'm fairly sure that the DM's don't like the idea of people requesting monkey grip and then abusing it by using none requested weapons with a shield without adding more to that. Atleast MG is not so widely available as wings, mostly in the case of DD's

I'm not saying everything the above in my post is right or strictly true, either. This is just the impression and perspective I have.

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Glim
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 20:06 PM 

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Needled247 wrote:
Then again, this argument is almost moot regardless, because by the time you've gotten wings, you've gained so many other draconian features that it is almost virtually impossible to conceal your differences anyways.

This is indeed part of the issue which brought about the new rule. We had started by trying to determine how to showcase those changes and really drive home how much of a bunch of freaks (essentially) Dragon Disciples actually become. We bandied about a few different approaches to this but the most seamless and painless (both for the players and for the Devs) that we could find is this ruling about wings.

As mentioned by some folk in previous posts, this was a step we felt we could take that didn't impose unnecessarily harsh restrictions on the possibilities of individual RP, while still maintaining some continuity with the class (or other winged beings) as a whole.

We aren't forcing skin color changes, we aren't forcing facial horns or reverse-jointed legs (though those last two are options for players now!), but we are going to enforce this one issue that really inconveniences characters little if at all, and really does make the most sense and least painful change that we could come up with.

And as stated in previous posts, discussion is fine and well, but this shouldn't be taken in the same light as the, "we'd like ideas" thread for the Palemasters. This is an announcement of a new rule. It may change sometime in the future, but for now, it is what it is.


 
      
RaveN
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 20:08 PM 

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I'm sure that when Bartleby tells Loki "wings" he means expand them, and that's exactly what happens. I don't think they just come and go, but I didn't write the film. Regardless, the point is that it's not realistic to say that the wings are too big. In fact, I think quite the opposite. Full plate can be (and usually) is huge. If it was tight around you, you would likely suffer organ damage when you got hit, but it's not. How do fat people wear fullplate? They make bigger fullplate. How is that any different?

If it's a matter of potential abuse than that's pretty damn nitpicky, because I can think of far worse things that don't have anything to do with petty mechanics that actually have some real impact on roleplaying that are continuously abused. Taking priviledges away from people seems to be a pattern in the last month, first with the failmastery thread, which mind you I think is equally retarded, given the fact that there's a book you can read which has a flimsy paragraph or two about how some dude cut off his arm and became a palemaster. If you're not going to bother putting it into the lore, why would you expect someone who plays a palemaster to put double the amount of effort. Do you actually know 100% all of the steps required or is there room for improvisation? If there is no room for improvising, why do you bother writing a story at all, seeing as how it obviously must be the same for everyone. Same with this, really except this is far more petty and in my opinion has never been overbearing on any roleplay so I have no idea why anyone bothered with this instead of fixing any of the dozens of more important and glaring issues.

Also, that being said, if someone doesn't properly roleplay their draconic features then I fail to see how giving them wings is going to help the situation. Either way, they're going to do it wrong. A simple era 2000's graphic isn't going to magically make them read the draconomicon, only they can fix their RP.

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Palin489
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 20:34 PM 

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I don't see what we're gaining by limiting people with this.


 
      
Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 20:40 PM 

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I don't see what people are gaining by not having this.

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Palin489
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 20:48 PM 

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How about limitations on roleplay? What if my RDD isn't proud? What if he - as Mosh said - Doesn't like the physical alterations, what if he hides them? F me right?


 
      
666WaysToHell
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 20:49 PM 

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Why would your character take enough levels to have those physical alterations if you were ashamed of them?

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Palin489
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 20:51 PM 

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What people would do for /power alone/ is immeasurable. The ultimate problem is assuming that all RDDs have to be proud, and by association limiting the options to play RDDs any other way, thus pigeonholing the entire class as Palemaster was/is in the process of being done. What do we gain by limiting roleplay in any manner at all?


Last edited by Palin489 on Wed, Mar 13 2013, 20:56 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
erroch
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 20:56 PM 

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Needled247 wrote:
Full plate can be (and usually) is huge. If it was tight around you, you would likely suffer organ damage when you got hit, but it's not.


The biggest reason for the plate armor being "huge" was because of the padded layer (the gambeson) often worn underneath. This is what provided a bit of a crush zone and stoped the armor from chaffing horribly. It's not just extra empty space that can be used to stow things.

Granted I've only worn a plate curiass and faulds and not a full suit plate, so my personal experience is a bit limited. But the parts I did wear were pretty snug over the gambeson once I was properly strapped in. There really wasn't much 'wiggle room' at all. This is in part to avoid what you're indicating above. If the armor becomes damaged and does pierce through that protective cushion layer, you want it to stay still instead of sliding all over the place, further aggrivating that wound.

Also loose armor = chaffing and anyone that's delt with chaffing of any sort can tell you that chaffing sucks.

So yes, in theory one could have plate armor specially crafted to conceal the wings, but it's going to be somewhat obvious that the armor is conceling something. That mass has to go somewhere (Ex: quasimodo in the title)

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Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 21:05 PM 

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Palin489 wrote:
What people would do for /power alone/ is immeasurable. The ultimate problem is assuming that all RDDs have to be proud, and by association limiting the options to play RDDs any other way, thus pigeonholing the entire class as Palemaster was/is in the process of being done. What do we gain by limiting roleplay in any manner at all?

Then.... don't continue to unlock the power in your blood when you know damned well what is going to happen? It's called give and take. You're a winged freak, even if you are proud of it, and you have to deal with it. Or don't take DD 9 and live without it.

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DerkDerkistan
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 21:31 PM 

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Palin, you're talking about limiting roleplay by restricting hidden wings. What about the fact that every RDD that pretends he's not an RDD is limiting the roleplay of EVERY other player on the server? My character might despise/adore anything draconic and would have vastly different reactions toward your character if not for the fact that every single aspect about the ritualistic transformation of your entire body could be so cleverly hidden by a piece of fabric draped over your back.

I'm sorry, but once you've gone so far in the class to where you have wings growing out of your back, your heritage should be immediately and obviously recognizable.

And really, why would you go into a class and not want to roleplay it, good parts or bad? Hiding behind "My RDD is ashamed of what he is" is just a cop out, plain and simple.

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Palin489
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 21:34 PM 

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DerkDerkistan wrote:
Palin, you're talking about limiting roleplay by restricting hidden wings. What about the fact that every RDD that pretends he's not an RDD is limiting the roleplay of EVERY other player on the server? My character might despise/adore anything draconic and would have vastly different reactions toward your character if not for the fact that every single aspect about the ritualistic transformation of your entire body could be so cleverly hidden by a piece of fabric draped over your back.

I'm sorry, but once you've gone so far in the class to where you have wings growing out of your back, your heritage should be immediately and obviously recognizable.

And really, why would you go into a class and not want to roleplay it, good parts or bad? Hiding behind "My RDD is ashamed of what he is" is just a cop out, plain and simple.


Why shouldn't I try to innovate on a class that's been done a million times the same way. Also not every RDD hides it, I feel that's far from the truth. What you call a cop-out I call an alternative method of roleplay, which are honestly the most endearing at the end of the day. Besides the "cop out" there are other reasons to hide your RDD blood, mostly what you just mentioned

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slkNihilus
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 21:39 PM 

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You know what the problem is, Palin? Too many people wish to "innovate" and "try radical new ways of playing a class". I'm not saying that's a bad thing in and of itself, but the whole point of trying something new is to set oneself apart from the norm, right? Well, when everybody and their dog wants to be different... I think you can see where this is going.


 
      
xordae
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 21:43 PM 

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People change. A disciple that once was cocky and sought to bring out his blood's potential can damn well find that everybody hates his guts later. The arguments I hear against a disciple deviating from typical behavior and thinking all assume we're playing in a static time bubble. Really, guys?


 
      
Palin489
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 21:44 PM 

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slkNihilus wrote:
You know what the problem is, Palin? Too many people wish to "innovate" and "try radical new ways of playing a class". I'm not saying that's a bad thing in and of itself, but the whole point of trying something new is to set oneself apart from the norm, right? Well, when everybody and their dog wants to be different... I think you can see where this is going.


Every character /should/ be different, but I agree there needs to be a moderate degree of respect for your classes you chose.. To which point I concede that if you don't want wings don't take the 9th RDD lvl. It does marginally shaft a small group of roleplayers though, just as the palemaster thread does.


 
      
Bini
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 21:49 PM 

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Every character should be different in that the sum of their parts is different, rather than each individual part.

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slkNihilus
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 21:52 PM 

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I don't know, I think there's still plenty of roleplay opportunities to be had with the class. Let's assume that the character wishes to delve into their dragonic blood powers for a reason that's, at its core, noble. But their blood might not be that of a metallic dragon and the ritual to awaken it would definitely be quite evil and vile. So you have this character who has a dilemma on their hands: do they sacrifice their morality for the sake of power, or seek out other methods? It's a pretty weak example, but you get what I'm trying to say.


 
      
IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 21:56 PM 

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I must agree with Palin and Xordae that the argument of "DD shouldn't want to hide his wings" is completely unconvincing. If this was a ruling about that, it would be unacceptable.

However, that's also beside the point. It's simply a question of whether you could hide them. I think there are many ways to do that, but a regular cloak probably isn't one of them. At least that's a ruling I can live with. Nonetheless, you should be able to create a "cape of holding" like Eurgiga suggested, or apply a magical paste to make them invisible. I suppose these are things you'd have to look at case by case. There should be ways to hide them if you want to, but I agree that simply tossing a cloth over them is too easy.

But yeah: by the time you have dragon wings your appearance is already so obviously draconic that it shouldn't matter. Unless you're covered in armor I guess, but who trusts a hooded man?

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Glim
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 22:01 PM 

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DerkDerkistan wrote:
I'm sorry, but once you've gone so far in the class to where you have wings growing out of your back, your heritage should be immediately and obviously recognizable.

Bingo.


 
      
Casvenx
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 22:12 PM 

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It doesn't make any sort of sense to be able to entirely hide wings, under a cloak or anything else. I didn't know that was even an option, so I'm glad to see it changed.

I also don't know the rules on armor or whatnot, but IMO, anything beyond light armors should have to be modified, and lose a point or two of AC to reflect the altered nature. Disguising the wings into the armor might be a possibility (this is fantasy after all), but the armor class should suffer more as a result.

Flaying around in full plate on wings hidden beneath a cloak does not sound like interesting RP to me, it just screams *MUNCHKIN*.

If your DD is ashamed of his gifts, the obvious answer is not to actively push to cultivate them. Or create more interesting RP around trying to hide things (Hack the wings off, Invest heavily into special polymorph potions that make you look 'normal', Find a mage to cast invisibility and permanency on them).

No where does it say anything about dictating that your character be proud of what he is, just that most would be, and that the wings cannot be so easily hidden. If you wanna break the mold, just think a little harder. It might even make breaking the mold more worthwhile.

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treant13
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 13 2013, 22:19 PM 

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I really came into this conversation late, but I feel that looking at any picture of a humanoid with wings would clear up any discussion about a cloak covering them. For example


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag7 ... a6a78e.png

These three pictures show that in each case the wings extend above the creature by, I would guess, a foot. This is not something a cloak without magical properties could ever conceal in my opinion, and since these wings are grown and not grafted no one would have any control over the look.

(I hope the link works, really wanted to wow with in forum picture, but I don't know how to do that yet :))

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 0:10 AM 

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I'm intrigued by the mentions of heavy armor in this thread. If the goal here is exclusively to make RDD-ness less concealable by some sort of plausible, then, mission accomplished. But, if the goal is to impose realism on RDDs, is the DM team contemplating making the Flight feat unusable in heavy armor, or when carrying more than X pounds of stuff in inventory?

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Cerpin Taxt
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 0:20 AM 

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Liz wrote:
I'm intrigued by the mentions of heavy armor in this thread. If the goal here is exclusively to make RDD-ness less concealable by some sort of plausible, then, mission accomplished. But, if the goal is to impose realism on RDDs, is the DM team contemplating making the Flight feat unusable in heavy armor, or when carrying more than X pounds of stuff in inventory?


Seeing as how humans wouldn't be able to fly with wings at any weight, I fail to see why that would be necessary.

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Manarethan
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 0:23 AM 

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Thank you Treant. That is exactly my thought on the situation. Those wings (and those are what Dragon Disciples are 'creating' when they go through the rituals) would never be hide-able under a bit of cloth over your back. Now, if somebody wants to request a large hollowed out backpack which they stuff their wings in to hide them, I'd be all for that. :P


 
      
NinjaClarinet
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 0:27 AM 



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I played on a server once where the DD wings were enlarged by several percent, in order to more accurately portray their size (like the picture posted). Perhaps that can be considered just to bring the point home?


 
      
CouncilofAutumn
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 0:34 AM 

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It's hard for me to empathize with RDDs and Palemasters in this regard considering that monk eyes will never be changed. Besides, slapping two wings on the back of a biped doesn't allow them to fly. That's not fantasy, that's physics. Be happy you've got what you've got.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 0:54 AM 

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(Also, if this is a formal rule, it should be added to the Rules forum.)

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Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 1:07 AM 

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CouncilofAutumn wrote:
It's hard for me to empathize with RDDs and Palemasters in this regard considering that monk eyes will never be changed. Besides, slapping two wings on the back of a biped doesn't allow them to fly. That's not fantasy, that's physicsphysics. Be happy you've got what you've got.

Sadly the monk eyes are hard coded :(

They can be removed, but you can't turn them on/off. They have to be all on or all off (personally I'm in favor of all off, they are silly).

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DolphinRacer
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 2:15 AM 

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Claimh Solais wrote:
I think we should take the next step forward and start banning/penalizing people who have full plates that have been crafted to not look like the heavy armors they are. For too long have people been allowed to look relatively stylish while wearing what D&D considers to be platemails of metal and steel that cover the entire body.
I really do wish there was some sort of mechanical penalty for this *le sigh* Ah well. Not gonna happen.


That said I wholeheartedly approve of this new rule myself. I think its silly that wings big enough proportionately to the body to allow flight should be able to be neatly folded up and fit seamlessly under a cloak without nobody being the wiser, though props to people who have in the past RPed the quasimodo hump dealy, though they are few and far between.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 5:47 AM 

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I can understand the claim about DD's being proud of their heritage to the point where they wouldn't want to hide it. The more levels you take in the class, the more the dragon blood changes who you are - mentally. Maybe at one point the way people treat you differently would have bothered you, but after you've taken nine levels, performed nine rituals...that magically-enhanced blood is going to be screwing with your mind. Draconic pride is a huge part of dragons. They believe themselves superior to all other creatures - even metallics think that way. After nine rituals/levels, it becomes very difficult to believe the introverted, regretful Dragon Disciple who cries "Woe is me" when he gets glares from children.

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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 5:52 AM 

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Pride does not in any way prevent guile. It may even enhance it. There are even types of dragons who are considered especially sneaky, who would take pride in being able to fool the lesser beings around them. So it's not fair to say categorically that DDs *should* refuse to hide when there are still eminently practical reasons to do so. For the "woe is me" reason, fair enough maybe. I mean, they chose to awaken their blood. But other reasons exist to want to hide.

But again... it doesn't matter. Physically impossible. Bipeds with wings etc.


 
      
Jes
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 6:00 AM 

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Oh, I wasn't saying they wouldn't want to hide it ever, for any reason. Zelly's tried (and failed) a few times for the sake of kids who get freaked out by her appearance, even.

But yeah. With the argument that it isn't possible to hide them under a simple cloak, I agree and don't mean to claim otherwise! I was mostly explaining the pride thing and arguing the shame point that someone brought up.

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Eurgiga
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 6:25 AM 

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NinjaClarinet wrote:
I played on a server once where the DD wings were enlarged by several percent, in order to more accurately portray their size (like the picture posted). Perhaps that can be considered just to bring the point home?


This is actually insanely easy to do. There's actual scaling options in wings.2da or whatever the file is named. I can show you how to do it privately on your own 2da, but unless the server adopts it officially it'll just be a visual effect on your end.

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Stronglikesumo
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 16:42 PM 

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Even half way through Dragon disciple your biology is drastically changed from your original form, your musculature has grown by this point twice and will keep growing, your hands are taloned and your teeth become sharp fangs, and your jaw changing to facilitate a halfway decent bite attack, your coat of scales has thus hardened from the original coloress armor, to the shiny paint job of your Ancestor, Your senses have been altered to where you can percieve your surrounding in a similar manner as your ancestor did And we cant forget that you belch up whatever element they did as well. The change is even more drastic by ninth or tenth level.

The point is, to your average villager a dragon disciple of any color is a walking freakshow, so unless your walking around in invisibilty or in a sackcloth robe designed for an ogre( even that probably wont work) you arent fooling anyone. Even if Disciples had the Bone structure to hide by folding them up, by that stage of the metamorphsis brain chemistry alone has some part of them convinced they are Tiamat's/Bahamut's gift on earth and have no reason to hide if villagers panic at the sight of them. and if Hiding is so imperative to thier survival, Dragons and thier Kin being innately magical beings would use magic rather than a simple woolen cloak to hide.

The wing rule is perfectly justified in my own opinion.

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beciv
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 18:13 PM 

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DerkDerkistan wrote:
I'm sorry, but once you've gone so far in the class to where you have wings growing out of your back, your heritage should be immediately and obviously recognizable.


I would go a little farther with this and say that once you can use a breath weapon your heritage should be recognizable. There would be changes to your body to allow for the substance that you are exhaling. This frost/fire/poison gas/lightning does not come out your lungs. I also find it doubtful that the mouth and lips the character was born with would be able to handle this sort of abuse.

As soon as you get any benifit from the class it should be noted in your discription so that it can be seen upon inspection.

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Fierene Havenstar
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 19:35 PM 

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DolphinRacer wrote:
Claimh Solais wrote:
I think we should take the next step forward and start banning/penalizing people who have full plates that have been crafted to not look like the heavy armors they are. For too long have people been allowed to look relatively stylish while wearing what D&D considers to be platemails of metal and steel that cover the entire body.
I really do wish there was some sort of mechanical penalty for this *le sigh* Ah well. Not gonna happen.

That said I wholeheartedly approve of this new rule myself. I think its silly that wings big enough proportionately to the body to allow flight should be able to be neatly folded up and fit seamlessly under a cloak without nobody being the wiser, though props to people who have in the past RPed the quasimodo hump dealy, though they are few and far between.


Whoa there, let’s not go all crazy. Who’s to say that a gnome didn’t fashion the heavy armor to work and be sleek? Like the French gals armor in A Knights Tale. /My/ dragon-gal is a fashion diva and places expensive cloth over her plate. Furthermore the plate is very well oiled with Sharessen oils so no squeeking.

Which means that she wears a very stylish cloak and doesn’t care if it’s bulky from the back since the front is fabulous! Can’t I just emote *Her cloak while stylish sticks out in back as if covering HUGE DRAGON WINGS!* ??

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GreatPigeon
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 19:43 PM 

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I kind of think this thread has serves the purpose. It was a ruling not open to argument. This is the law obey it, not a Dr. Phil "how does that make you feel." ... Seriously.

It's a ruling if you don't agree or think you are a special case like Everyone else or have awesome rp to hide your wings where folks cannot see etc. Probably should pm the dms or take it to a request thing.

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Palin489
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 21:56 PM 

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So the skinny is this:

Wings can't be hidden in cloaks, so don't do it
buuuuuuuuuut, if you want to get crafty you can request bags-of-holding-capes and invisbility paste.

Sounds good.


 
      
Strawberry Stallion
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 14 2013, 23:07 PM 

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GreatPigeon wrote:
I kind of think this thread has serves the purpose. It was a ruling not open to argument. This is the law obey it, not a Dr. Phil "how does that make you feel." ... Seriously.

It's a ruling if you don't agree or think you are a special case like Everyone else or have awesome rp to hide your wings where folks cannot see etc. Probably should pm the dms or take it to a request thing.

If they didn't want any feedback or comments they would of locked the topic upon creation. Civil discussion should be encouraged to gauge the community's stand on such rulings regardless.

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Grymia
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 15 2013, 2:09 AM 

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beciv wrote:
DerkDerkistan wrote:
I'm sorry, but once you've gone so far in the class to where you have wings growing out of your back, your heritage should be immediately and obviously recognizable.


I would go a little farther with this and say that once you can use a breath weapon your heritage should be recognizable. There would be changes to your body to allow for the substance that you are exhaling. This frost/fire/poison gas/lightning does not come out your lungs. I also find it doubtful that the mouth and lips the character was born with would be able to handle this sort of abuse.

As soon as you get any benifit from the class it should be noted in your discription so that it can be seen upon inspection.


Breath weapon alone isn't a solid identifier, remember: There's still a Chromatic and Metallic possibility for each. It'd help, definitely and with the right observation of other traits and tendencies.. you probably can get an idea on bloodline.

IIRC though you get your first Natural AC bonus before a breath weapon so that'd be another possible clue (that shouldn't be too too hard to pick up on)


 
      
Silent2001
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 15 2013, 2:40 AM 

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Jes wrote:
I can understand the claim about DD's being proud of their heritage to the point where they wouldn't want to hide it. The more levels you take in the class, the more the dragon blood changes who you are - mentally. Maybe at one point the way people treat you differently would have bothered you, but after you've taken nine levels, performed nine rituals...that magically-enhanced blood is going to be screwing with your mind. Draconic pride is a huge part of dragons. They believe themselves superior to all other creatures - even metallics think that way. After nine rituals/levels, it becomes very difficult to believe the introverted, regretful Dragon Disciple who cries "Woe is me" when he gets glares from children.


Thank you for justifying my first point <3


Palin489 wrote:
So the skinny is this:

Wings can't be hidden in cloaks, so don't do it
buuuuuuuuuut, if you want to get crafty you can request bags-of-holding-capes and invisbility paste.

Sounds good.


Yep. You can request pretty much anything. If you want to play an innovative RDD that has found an awesome way to conceal his heritage, justify it with a roleplay/request.

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Garnith
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 15 2013, 7:53 AM 

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Eurgiga wrote:
NinjaClarinet wrote:
I played on a server once where the DD wings were enlarged by several percent, in order to more accurately portray their size (like the picture posted). Perhaps that can be considered just to bring the point home?


This is actually insanely easy to do. There's actual scaling options in wings.2da or whatever the file is named. I can show you how to do it privately on your own 2da, but unless the server adopts it officially it'll just be a visual effect on your end.


I'd quite like this to be considered for the server. Those tiny wings always irritated me.

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Slade
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 15 2013, 12:45 PM 



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Mildly skimming this thread, is interesting somewhat, but just want to say one thing:

Dragons are not birds. Dragons are not bats. Dragons have nothing in common with either of those things. Dragons do not have delicate bone structure or light muscle density. Dragons do not have hollow bones. Dragons are not frail as piss like birds and bats are, prone to broken bones and serious injury with little force. Dragon wing ratio to body is much greater than bird/bat ratio because a dragon actually has to lift all that very un-aerodynamic mass.

If you're going to try to use real world arguments, do not fail so poorly at it. If you wish to continue the insistence that these things are the same, take biology and physics classes, OR accept a Con value of 3 since you're claiming physiology of frail, hollow-boned mammals with light muscle density.

I'm sorry, but unless the writeup of a dragon species actually says the dragon cannot fly or flies through magic and the wings are purely ornamental or atrophied, this is just silly to suggest they're easy to hide because they're based on science.


 
      
Jes
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 15 2013, 16:08 PM 

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Draconomicon, Pg. 8. wrote:
Dragon bones are immensely strong, yet exceptionally light. In cross-section they look hollow, with thick walls made up of concentric circles of small chambers staggered like brickwork. Layers of connective tissue and blood vessels run between the layers.

If you're going to try to tell everyone they're wrong, make sure you're right first. :wink:

They may not be brittle, but they are hollow. They are light. They are bat-like. There is no arguing against very specific D&D lore on the bone structure of a dragon.

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Spirit of Rock
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 15 2013, 16:24 PM 

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I think it's a good change. Claiming that your character didn't know he was going to get scales and wings seems a bit silly, especially when considering that the Isle is practically swarming with dragon disciples from an IC perspective who your character would probably see and could ask about that type of thing.

I think this WYSIWYG direction is good because it forces you to be your character and accept the choices you've made. No, you can't pretend to be Regular Joe today, you're covered in scales, possess magically awakened dragon blood and have two giant wings on your back, not to mention an ego so bloated it's a wonder your head hasn't tripled in size. On the other hand, you hit like a truck, have impossibly strong skin and bones, resistance to various element types and you're related to a fucking dragon. If I knew there were dragon-hunters roaming the isle and could whack on a cloak to cover my suddenly not so welcome dragon wings because I want to play happy families it would kill the potentially interesting and fun conflict RP that might arise (not necessarily PvP). Instead it's just

Jeff: r u a dreagen?
Sk'thx'ylheltrx'ya'vsys The Scaled One: no //cloek hids wings lol
Jeff: no wait u r drogin
Sk'thx'ylheltrx'ya'vsys The Scaled One: ffs //metagamer omg

Or

Jeff: r u drogin??
Sk'thx'ylheltrx'ya'vsys The Scaled One: no
Jeff: ok tel me if u c drogen

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Bini
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 15 2013, 18:12 PM 

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Jeff: r u hung?
Sk'thx'ylheltrx'ya'vsys The Endowed One: no //kodpiec hids it lul
Jeff: no wait u r hung
Sk'thx'ylheltrx'ya'vsys The Endowed One: ffs //metagamer omg
Jeff: cum wiv me bbcaeks //:3

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