I'm good at this and have 6 years exp as forum mod and administrator. I'm good at keeping up and and keeping track and would like to help the community out.
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❤ Amia is Fun Again! ❤ #GreenisNotACreativeColour "It's easy to feel like a hero. It's a little harder to be one."
So, great initiative! But this sort of parsing out of responsibilities is where I do begin to have questions. Moderators, but not DMs. So they have no "creative" responsibilities, correct? Therefore, would they be monitoring conduct on the creative aspects? Would they regulate the postings in the Notice Board forums for example, which may be used creatively? Would these moderators be moderating "creative" forums like the Requests forum? Or is that whole forum going to a separate style?
This is where I wonder if we can't find clarification and put preventative measures in place, before problems of "us and them" would even arise (as it is wont to do)? [[Edited grammar errors here]]
(I also would need answers to most of those questions before I recommended anyone, not that I wouldn't readily accept whoever is chosen! To whatever degree, of course.)
Good questions, thanks for asking them. I'll post the answers to these (and some other things) when I get home from work because it's a pain to compose messages from my phone.
That statement assumes that DMs are immune to fault and perfectly above your standard player in personal qualities, such as trustworthiness and tact. Therefore, I vehemently disagree with you. Unless, of course, DMs themselves are a terrifying precedent.
Having people and/or cliques of people nominate themselves or each other for the first ever mob-rule position of authority during a time when people are at their peak in terms of dissent.
That's why it's "terrifying" (although that's a bit dramatic). The statement Tormak made does not assume DM's are immune to fault, you are spewing nonsense. It assumes nothing, it is simply stating that more authority, during this period, and in this format, is not the best idea since sliced bread.
I do not like the idea of handing a tin badge to an otherwise ordinary person who simply got "voted in" by the players. A DM has authority over the forums in some capacity that probably only the DM team knows, but they also generate IC content, handle requests, handle real issues between players or factions or characters... They are how the game functions. They run the server. They put up with our obviously toxic community (as evidenced by Sphinx's post which attacked DM's for no reason, and the fact that DM's are leaving because players are being horrible to them), and they are chosen by the server's hosts, so they deserve the authority to smack me if I'm being a jerk on their game, whilst they have the title of DM.
A forum moderator just magically has forum powers. And, since this is mob rule rather than created by the actual server hosts, we can very easily end up with some real stinkers or cliquey people - moreso than however much you think the DM's had that problem, because the server's actual playerbase has already proven to be toxic and self-segregated. We won't pick the right people. It will not happen. The playerbase is not (yet) reasonable enough to make it happen. The evidence is the last month of shit we've waded through.
At the risk of destroying the romanticism, people who are suggested will not immediately be given Moderator privileges. They are, as indicated, suggestions - these people so suggested are undergoing the same review as the people the DMs have suggested as themselves, which includes discussion on their attitude under duress and ability to separate personal bias and whimsy from performing their role. It isn't a popularity contest.
So don't worry so much over things that aren't the case. There's plenty of real things to worry about.
(Like the inexorable progress toward death and the ultimately absurd meaninglessness of life.)
Am I missing something here? We're talking about forum moderators here, right? It's not like they're getting massive amounts of power, and since it's the playerbase nominating people, why would the playerbase then get pissy about it?
Chill out, it's not like they're handing out DM-badges for who ever wants one. If this doesn't work out, fine, kill the project, but let's try not shooting everything down based on the worst possible scenarios that exist only in our nightmares.
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At the risk of creating further tangent, I want to point out that I wasn't attacking a person or a group of people, but merely a vague statement given by one. I'm the last person who would purposefully contribute to the toxicity problem, as it were. If anything, I wanted to emphasise that DMs are people just like us (something that seems to be easily forgotten here, unfortunately) and that non-DM community moderators shouldn't prove any more "terrifying" than our existing team.
I'm not going to nominate anybody because I have no idea who's great on the forums or not. I really don't pay enough attention for this sort of stuff. But I hope it turns out well, now that Master Letum has utterly destroyed half of my initial problems. (I still don't love the idea of forum moderators being separate/in addition to DM's, but I suppose it's happening no matter what.)
Why overthink this? If the DM Team needs a henchman, let them hire it. I've recently read a few posts about the Team undergoing notable personnel losses, no doubt they'll be needing some extra pairs of hands that allows them to focus on their other duties (like actual DMing, duh!). Plus, this topic shows exactly the kind of transparency and work distribution we've been whinging about. You're doing a great job, h8rs gona h8.
I've had it up to here with the stupid paranoia about the cliques and favouritism. You won't get beaten up if you join in the sandbox.
I nominate all the single ladies.
_________________ Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person I know you heard this and probably in fear -Kendrick Lamar, good kid
Last edited by Opustus on Wed, Feb 25 2015, 11:04 AM, edited 2 times in total.
At the risk of destroying the romanticism, people who are suggested will not immediately be given Moderator privileges. They are, as indicated, suggestions - these people so suggested are undergoing the same review as the people the DMs have suggested as themselves, which includes discussion on their attitude under duress and ability to separate personal bias and whimsy from performing their role. It isn't a popularity contest.
So don't worry so much over things that aren't the case. There's plenty of real things to worry about.
(Like the inexorable progress toward death and the ultimately absurd meaninglessness of life.)
Right! Forum Moderation takes dedication, organization, empathy and the ability to separate one's personal feelings in order to do a job that helps keep everything running smoothly. Being a forum mod is kinda like being a janitor honestly. Even though there are those who are willing to do the job it doesn't mean those willing or suggested may be best suited for it. And some of those who may be suggested may not have the dedication or the drive to deal with what goes on, or let's their personal feelings get in the way of doing the required tasks.
In my experience forum mods help clean up inflammatory posts and cut down on a good deal of the 'toxic' nature in the community. Thread organization and up keep is also a big thing we used to do to help keep the forums neat and easy to navigate. Being a forum mod requires you to be in the know quite a bit f the time and know what's being said when and where... It takes an awful lot of dedication to do the job well. And if the DM's are tied up in forum issues that they could really care less about or are putting them off from playing or a various amount of other reasons that's less time they have to spend in game and just enjoying the game. Right now I think a lot of the dm's are having trouble keeping up with all the posts and some of them probably don't feel all that great because some folks decided to air out their negative thoughts in a thread with no re-guard for others.
Like wise in my past mod-ship I've only ever really had to have temp banned like.. three people in my years. Most of this was simply due to folks who couldn't take the warnings or suggestions of taking a step back from causing trouble.
Also! A good mod can't simply go around deleting post just because they don't agree with some one. You have to be very understanding. Honestly forum mod can be very demanding as a task if there is only a few. Where I came from different mods would watch different sections of the forums to help spread the work load out evenly and keep things manageable. Preferably you want some one who can speak easily, concisely, and clearly so that the message is not muddled.You also like... really gotta know how not t offend folks. When I was a mod I general used to send simple pms to users if a thread was in the wrong place and say that I moved it and give a brief explanation of why and a link to it as well ( if the url changes with the move) Some time you get asked to move posts or to delete threads. Where I worked as a mod we never really hard deleted thread for records sake and we would simply 'soft delete' them , which essentially moved them to a 'waste basket' or file system that normal users didn't have access too.
But! I do believe this is an attempt at helping the community by allowing the dm's some more free time to where they don't have to constantly scan the forums to know every little thing. To help simply free them up and get some nice organization down, and to help cut down on the 'toxic' influences. I personally feel this is a great idea to help the community flourish and would love to do just about anything I can to help out- Because let's face it. Amia is freaking awesome~!
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❤ Amia is Fun Again! ❤ #GreenisNotACreativeColour "It's easy to feel like a hero. It's a little harder to be one."
Moderators are not people capable of issuing bans. They are people who are willing to read through forum post and decide if a thread needs to be moved to another sub forum, or locked because of its content.
I'm aware that isn't all they do, but the moderator is a nice thing to have; having player moderators allows the player base to police itself to an extent in terms of conduct too. I think it helps.
It's not like moderators can approve or deny DC requests.
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
Why overthink this? If the DM Team needs a henchman, let them hire it. I've recently read a few posts about the Team undergoing notable personnel losses, no doubt they'll be needing some extra pairs of hands that allows them to focus on their other duties (like actual DMing, duh!). Plus, this topic shows exactly the kind of transparency and work distribution we've been whinging about. You're doing a great job, h8rs gona h8.
I've had it up to here with the stupid paranoia about the cliques and favouritism. You won't get beaten up if you join in the sandbox.
I nominate all the single ladies.
Never said there was favoritism, and most of your post doesn't apply/matter to me in particular, but there are of course cliques of players. I'm part of a couple of them. You're silly to dismiss the notion that players group together with other players they consider friends; it happens in real life, it happens on Amia too.
EDIT: I'd like to point out that "clique" is not an evil term, it's just, on Amia in most cases, friends who hang out together and often play together. It's not like they're secret cabals plotting to overthrow the dev team. That's why I consider it silly to say cliques don't exist. They're just groups of friendly people.
That wasn't directed as an attack on you, rather on the habit generated from thinking that an antipathy exists between cliques and player interests. I thought I felt that sentiment hanging in the air here, when you expressed that cliquey people being chosen as moderators might not be suited for the job. I'll take your word for it that it's not what you meant, but I think it's safe to say that the word "clique" has amassed negative connotations aplenty throughout the age-old discussions of favouritism and nepotism on Amia.
I'd prefer positive imagining for the word, for us to realise that buddies patting each other on the back will keep us all on track. I'm not saying cliques don't exist, I'm saying it's necessary and ultimately a beneficial thing they do.
_________________ Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person I know you heard this and probably in fear -Kendrick Lamar, good kid
This is a terrifying precedent to set.... And requires a tight leash, and several babysitters.
It's been the subject of discussion for a long while among the staff, in one form or another. Suffice to say, I'm very sure this has been very carefully considered. So while I empathize with your concerns that this is something new and off-the-wall, I would invite you instead consider it as it probably is-- which would be a trial period.
As for other concerns: are the means for nominating and selecting imperfect? Yeah. They're not categorically awful, though. I think we should consider the potential community benefit of a functioning program like this, and be cautious of derailing the very thread that is suggesting players have a bit more self-responsibility!
That being said, I'm very excited about this. This is a great way to test the waters for a potential system of community-based moderators (Forum and Game). A kind of community council that can take the burden off of DM's who we want spending more time in-game with NPC's and plots. It's not going to be perfect, there are going to be some painful navigations of a new bureaucracy. It'll take time to modify and adjust it to our server culture. But in the end, this is a really great step toward a very cool end-goal. But we'll only ever see this end state if we behave responsibly with what we've been given presently.
Very neat trial idea. Had this kind of thing been around earlier, I would have leaped at it myself. As it stands, though, given recent events and my current commitment level I will politely defer to others.
Last edited by Mr. Hackums on Wed, Feb 25 2015, 12:28 PM, edited 1 time in total.
I gotcha; what I meant when I mentioned cliques, was that people would sometimes support their friend or favorite without thinking if they were properly suited for the job. Or something.
Really, we can't know what a person will do with the authority until after they have it, so saying "what if they play favorites now, will that become worse?" is a perfectly legitimate concern, until one has evidence that they will be OK for the job.
BUT
Since I was wrong in my assumption that the moderators are completely player chosen, and they are in fact interviewed sort of, similar to the DM team, I don't think we need to worry too much about clique-iness. It was more just a concern about people forcing certain moderators onto the community, that I was concerned about, but if they still have to be approved and interviewed and determined by the powers that be, that greatly diminishes the likelihood of that happening. So... No worries!
Frugdar hugs for everyone! Roll a Fortitude save.
EDIT: Hackums said some good stuff too. Pay attention to him!
_________________ Osiris Masud
Last edited by MisterLich on Wed, Feb 25 2015, 19:13 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Forum Moderation includes no responsibility over creative content. For the IC sections of the forum, Moderators will perform tasks such as splitting out unrelated posts (excessive OOC, unrelated things at the request of the OP), locking threads at the request of the OP such as trolling spam), reminding of forum rules when necessary (such as posting location in auctions). They will NOT be doing things such as changing any content of posts through the edit feature without the expressed consent of the original poster, for any reason.
The introduction of Moderators does not bring with it any changes in the function or rules of the forums as they have been. It is simply an addition to the number of people who are able to help keep the forums clean, allowing the DMs to focus their time on matters that require more involved access and responsibility.
I believe Silke has something he wants to add about this, although you'll have to wait until he's awake!
I generally trust players to moderate the forum reasonably and without unreasonable authoritarianism. I also trust that if any of them get out of hand, either the DM Team will correct it or, barring that, the community will.
Which is perhaps the more "terrifying" part, that being the community's realization of what it can accomplish with enough bitching.
Winky faces! So full of meaning... Thank you for the answers, Letum!! What about hidden sub forums and faction groups? Will moderators be touching those?
I have never been crude or abrassive and have a penchant for not instigating riots on the forum - I yam an obvious candidate.
Truthfully though I think this is a solid evolution for the community. Of course there will be bumps as with all things but I think the risks are easily eliminated and we should see quick pruning of missuse. As much as I dislike OOC secrecy I agree moderate limitation of hidden forum access would be prudent, even if I trust everyone to not metagame in a harmful manner.
Though on the flip side I have to agree with yoss that these forums are pretty tame and relatively without need of moderation
It's not even the risk of meta-gaming that would have me so against moderators being granted access to those things.
To use a selfish example: The Wiltun private forums are mine. They are the product of my faction and our role play initiatives and for anyone to have a say on the way I moderate them as a faction leader is encroaching of our faction's "autonomy" to drive our own style of play, at best. Autonomy might be a bad term to use, but I'm sure you catch my drift.
This falls, and should remain, under the purview of DM's alone.
EDIT: Hope that didn't sound dismissive in any way to anyone's feelings on the matter, just wanted to expound on my stance.
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I do not think it is implied that the moderators get any power beyond keeping the forum looking tidy and keeping things calm. Administration of a faction subforum will always remain within the realm of it's respective admin and DMs.
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TormakSaber wrote:
This is a terrifying precedent to set.... And requires a tight leash, and several babysitters.
Actually the terrifying precedent is to continue to propagate that the player base is inherently criminal. As a trial and opportunity for players to become more involved in non IC activities and help add diversity to the server via the forums. But thanks anyway for dramatically showing why many players feel there is an "us vs them" between players and DM's/Mods.
Letum, you keep up with your brilliant ideas. I've never once gotten the impression that you have had anything but the betterment of the server and community in mind and would continue to do so. No matter what our former master of negativity might quip in with after being gone for so long.
_________________ Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.
Joined: 17 Dec 2013 Location: Just arrived from Korriban by Fury class Imperial Interceptor
gorgometh wrote:
It's not even the risk of meta-gaming that would have me so against moderators being granted access to those things.
To use a selfish example: The Wiltun private forums are mine. They are the product of my faction and our role play initiatives and for anyone to have a say on the way I moderate them as a faction leader is encroaching of our faction's "autonomy" to drive our own style of play, at best. Autonomy might be a bad term to use, but I'm sure you catch my drift.
This falls, and should remain, under the purview of DM's alone.
I think this is an inspired idea Letum. Thanks for your confidence in the players!
@ Gorgometh: What about assigning a person a particular forum(s) not give them everything. Just the ones where the DM team needs help. Maybe even reassigning as things change. A little bit at a time to see how it goes. And I'm betting Letum has already thought of this.
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2015 Mr. AMIA with the Fabulous Estara ~ 2015 Best Developed SOB Character: Rith'tar
Gorki and Maze, are you talking about the faction forums in particular? Can't that just stay under faction supervision? I'm sure they can moderate their own stuff with a clear consensus without external parties interfering with their beeswax.
_________________ Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person I know you heard this and probably in fear -Kendrick Lamar, good kid
Total vote of personal preference in this, but what if each faction had their own moderator to upkeep their little factions. Don't make it an official position or anything, but just sort of a duty given to the most OCD player of the group to keep things cleaned and fresh? They will be the village razor, and will shave the wiry parts of the faction's face.
That's how existing faction subforum moderators work already.
And it's how they should stay. Ayup.
PassionateShadow wrote:
LetumLux wrote:
We're looking for organizational-minded members of our community to take the role of forum Moderators!
Let's try not to get off topic here eh?
The question was asked though. No better place to answer those concerns than here, at the moment.
Q&A is fine! I just feel we might be moving in to more debatable posts, and in to tangents which makes it harder to pick out a few posts answering the OP. Just a friendly reminder about what the OP is looking for.
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❤ Amia is Fun Again! ❤ #GreenisNotACreativeColour "It's easy to feel like a hero. It's a little harder to be one."
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555444333 wrote:
If I am elected moderator, I promise it will be ~GLORIOUS~.
I nominate Numbers, he obviously needs something to do.
_________________ Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.
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PassionateShadow wrote:
Let's try not to get off topic here eh?
Q&A is fine! I just feel we might be moving in to more debatable posts, and in to tangents which makes it harder to pick out a few posts answering the OP. Just a friendly reminder about what the OP is looking for.
Take it easy there PS. Clarification is important. I can't decide if this would be something I'm interested in until I know details. Gorgometh brought up a really great point/observation. If this was to moderate faction forums it'd be a no for me since I agree the faction should pick it's own moderators. And I don't want a player getting all moderator in my PC Stories either.
I'd be interested in what forums Letum is thinking of for player moderator help.
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2015 Mr. AMIA with the Fabulous Estara ~ 2015 Best Developed SOB Character: Rith'tar
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