To gear that thing; +6 str belt, +6 dex bracer, you top out wraith form's con already so you don't need a con item.
Get 15 resist to everything on various pieces of gear (except cold). Get regen on the rest and use the shield that has 5 resist to all physical. Get a 32 sr torso. Get a dagger (which gets 2d8 bonus dmg instead of 1d10) and give it vamp regen among other things, which you can do via mythals because wraith form counts as +5 so you can just do keen/vamp/mass crits/bonus dmg. Make regen every other slot; if you min-max (and get things like 5 dodge 2 regen boots) you can pull 16 regen easily.
Builds like that just show how front-loaded the Shifter class is due to Undead Shape not having any requirements beyond 10 Shifter levels (+5 Druid levels and two feats).
Pretty much all the flak shifters recieve is over Undead and Construct shape. The main benefits of those two shape groups being the Undead/Construct immunity's that are otherwise only really available through 10 Palemaster levels. Short of that the Shifter class now just basically makes you an incredibly sub-par version of whatever you want to be at the time. The Non-Feat Epic forms generally require a lot more investment into the Shifter class, yet get utterly left in the dust because of the stigma that they have unlimited uses per day and Shifters get them for "free", ignoring the additional level investment into the class. As many as 19 levels for Wildshape IV, thats not including the 5 levels of Druid, totaling 24 levels and two out of three class choices.
Comparing some of the stats between a Druid and a Shifter with the new Druid buffs further highlights the issues Shifters face in general. 26 Druid / 2 Monk / 2 Fighter vs 5 Druid/ 19 Shifter / 6 Monk
Max stat Epic Kobold Shifter - 40AB, 62AC, 20 bonus hide/MS, cooldown HIPS, 5d6 Sneak attack. Max stat Wraith - 43AB, 62AC, 10 hide/MS, cooldown hips, 5d6 sneak attack, crippling strike, undead immunities.
Compare the Gargoyle to the Bear Sell buffed Bear 44AB,54AC 48CON max (1000+HP), 10/- phys DR, sneak attack immunity in combat Max stat Epic Gargoyle 33AB, 55AC, 36CON, 10/- phys DR, 10/+6
Now, remember alllllll that other stuff Druids can get. And then take a second look at that Wraiths AB. Because thats the best AB your getting on a Pure Shifter short of Dragon form, which is designed for Druids.
30 Dwarf: (Darkvision, Defensive Training vs. Giants, Stonecunning, Hardiness vs. Poison, Hardiness vs. Spells, Offensive Training vs. Goblinoids, Offensive Training vs. Orcs, Skill Affinity: Lore) Dr 01: Druid(1): Alertness Dr 02: Druid(2) Dr 03: Druid(3): Iron Will Dr 04: Druid(4): CON+1, (CON=20) Dr 05: Druid(5) Sh 06: Shifter(1): Dodge Sh 07: Shifter(2) Sh 08: Shifter(3): CON+1, (CON=21) Sh 09: Shifter(4): Toughness Sh 10: Shifter(5) Sh 11: Shifter(6) Sh 12: Shifter(7): CON+1, Resist Energy: Fire, (CON=22) Sh 13: Shifter(8) Sh 14: Shifter(9) Sh 15: Shifter(10): Resist Energy: Acid DD 16: Dwarven Defender(1): CON+1, {Defensive Stance}, (CON=23) DD 17: Dwarven Defender(2): {Defensive Awareness I} DD 18: Dwarven Defender(3): Resist Energy: Electricity DD 19: Dwarven Defender(4) DD 20: Dwarven Defender(5): CON+1, (CON=24) Sh 21: Shifter(11): Undead Shape DD 22: Dwarven Defender(6) DD 23: Dwarven Defender(7) DD 24: Dwarven Defender(8): CON+1, Armor Skin, (CON=25) DD 25: Dwarven Defender(9) DD 26: Dwarven Defender(10) DD 27: Dwarven Defender(11): Epic Damage Reduction I DD 28: Dwarven Defender(12): CON+1, (CON=26) DD 29: Dwarven Defender(13) DD 30: Dwarven Defender(14): Epic Damage Reduction II, Epic Damage Reduction III
Stuff like this is why it's hard to buff the other aspects of the class, because you're giving it to this kind of thing.
Commie, I love you bro. But that build, as said, is a very specific builds. Any class can be worked properly with a specific build. Not everyone wants to play a Dwarf, Lawful Neutral, Shifter. Otherwise this wouldn't be brought up again.
Over all people like lilmarcat and LibrisMortis made good points, that the shifter has gone back into the case of gimmick build hence why for 10 years I have been able to play one as I started off as one long before the "shifter fix" and I will say I wish I would have all the years ago rolled Dwarf for DwD even more so over the years.
But yeah with the spell changes, increase to the power to elemental and druid animal forms their own summons...ect your better off rolling a pure druid.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
Plus if we're mentioning Druids..
Air Elemental - If you maximize Call Lighting then the Air Elemental can cast infinite Maximized Call Lighting. I can do 137 Damage per-spell. I'd just need Haste and anyone not immune to Electrical damage dies. Literally a game changer.
Like every stat comparison posted you have to take it with a grain of salt.
Druids get a powerful version of blood frenzy, which inflates their ab by a significant amount for a few minutes. This like all of this buffs can be stripped off by a mage or by simply out waiting or out lasting them for the first few turns.
Druids look really good on paper but they still suffer because they are heavily buff dependent. They are the clerics while the shifters are the fighters/wm. Fighters/wms are more flexible, and can jump into a battle as is while a cleric takes a long time to buff up to even begin to be competitive in a fight. Mele clerics look amazing on paper but many will tell you they suffer in actual pvp and some pve situations, same situation with druids.
Unbuffed Druid for comparisons sake Cat - 46AC 40AB Bear 44AC 35AB still 1000HP - comes with +12CON on hide Air Elemental 52AC 35AB
Fast Buff Druid - Barkskin, Max cats, Blood Frenzy Cat - 54AC 48AB Bear - 52AC 40AB Air Elemental - 60AC 40Ab
Also did the math, I slot 6 extended and one normal blood frenzy giving me 2028 rounds of Blood frenzy or 33.8 minutes. The Cleric equivalent, Divine Favor, is limited to one turn (one minute, two extended) leading to a pretty big difference in uptime.
Edit - Additional note before it gets asked - All of the above values (mainly just for AB) are all combat log values (true values) and not the fake sheet values that often show a few points less of what they actually are.
Extra edit! Just because I was reading up on the old original Druid buff page - The Epic Cat form with max skill ranks and the three Hide/MS Druid buffs but NO skill focus feats or Hide/MS gear reaches a staggering 103 Hide and 83 MS. Quite a bit higher then expected it seems.
Air Elemental - If you maximize Call Lighting then the Air Elemental can cast infinite Maximized Call Lighting. I can do 137 Damage per-spell. I'd just need Haste and anyone not immune to Electrical damage dies. Literally a game changer.
yeah i was told about a year ago when i found this on cor that it was an exploit, should have been fixed when they fixed this working on shifter, and was a suspend worthy offense.
30 Dwarf: (Darkvision, Defensive Training vs. Giants, Stonecunning, Hardiness vs. Poison, Hardiness vs. Spells, Offensive Training vs. Goblinoids, Offensive Training vs. Orcs, Skill Affinity: Lore) Dr 01: Druid(1): Alertness Dr 02: Druid(2) Dr 03: Druid(3): Iron Will Dr 04: Druid(4): CON+1, (CON=20) Dr 05: Druid(5) Sh 06: Shifter(1): Dodge Sh 07: Shifter(2) Sh 08: Shifter(3): CON+1, (CON=21) Sh 09: Shifter(4): Toughness Sh 10: Shifter(5) Sh 11: Shifter(6) Sh 12: Shifter(7): CON+1, Resist Energy: Fire, (CON=22) Sh 13: Shifter(8) Sh 14: Shifter(9) Sh 15: Shifter(10): Resist Energy: Acid DD 16: Dwarven Defender(1): CON+1, {Defensive Stance}, (CON=23) DD 17: Dwarven Defender(2): {Defensive Awareness I} DD 18: Dwarven Defender(3): Resist Energy: Electricity DD 19: Dwarven Defender(4) DD 20: Dwarven Defender(5): CON+1, (CON=24) Sh 21: Shifter(11): Undead Shape DD 22: Dwarven Defender(6) DD 23: Dwarven Defender(7) DD 24: Dwarven Defender(8): CON+1, Armor Skin, (CON=25) DD 25: Dwarven Defender(9) DD 26: Dwarven Defender(10) DD 27: Dwarven Defender(11): Epic Damage Reduction I DD 28: Dwarven Defender(12): CON+1, (CON=26) DD 29: Dwarven Defender(13) DD 30: Dwarven Defender(14): Epic Damage Reduction II, Epic Damage Reduction III
Stuff like this is why it's hard to buff the other aspects of the class, because you're giving it to this kind of thing.
Commie, I love you bro. But that build, as said, is a very specific builds. Any class can be worked properly with a specific build. Not everyone wants to play a Dwarf, Lawful Neutral, Shifter. Otherwise this wouldn't be brought up again.
You miss the point; anything you buff to shifter is going to also buff stuff like that.
"Note that metamagic feats do not work on Shifter spells, and Expertise/Improved Expertise cannot be used on Shifter abilities or spells."
Its scripted to not work with Shifters. I assume, the same was suppose to be for Druids, just something they overlooked as the Elementals spells came well after the Shifter script was implemented.
It's in the base game. If they can't fix it then it isn't the fault of the player.
Depending on what it is, sure it is. Saying that anything in the base game is free game invites all levels of exploits. There will almost always be exploits in the game code and by using such things, even if not fixed, is still very much against the rules. Some things literally can't be fixed either because of hard coding.
Joined: 12 Nov 2015 Location: The belly of the beast
Commie wrote:
fantastic.
infinite maximized acid fog/stone hold/call lighting here i come.
You can only maximize spells in the druids book. So. Fireballs and Acid fogs are a no go. Also, unless you have epic focus in both evocation and conjuration, this would work, but not net you any real damage. You can maximize the water elementals cure serious wounds and it spams as a 50hp AoE.
That being said, investing in the elemental shapes as a druid costs 8 total feats. This means no dragonshape, which means building for less melee utility and more towards a practiced caster. Six spell foci, extend and maximize. Something to consider.
Which, the spells you are maximizing as an elemental exist in your druids book already, so really you know how, the form just provides a dynamo.
_________________ Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.
Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.
Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased
Last edited by thunderbrush on Thu, Jan 19 2017, 18:40 PM, edited 1 time in total.
I do not think keeping comparing it to druids is the way to go here, it is an entirely different class. And we should focus on it like that. If I compare druid to wizard or cleric or paladin it is inferior by far except - lo and behold, one very specific build - so shifter by far is not the only class with this problem. It's comparing apples to bananas, we had the same issue in the BG thread where people keep comparing it to paladin.
Perfect balance is hard to achive in such a game. If you buff it all, then those specific builds become insane. Hence why we cannot buff the dragon form for shifters. It is the very same feat druids get. So if we would buff it, it would be insane on druids.
Undead form is still very strong, so is construct. Doesn't mean we can't buff anything, mind. Just saying the class is far from "weak".
Undead form btw also has HIPS, so does kobold form. While kobold may not be that powerful, the wraith sure is.
lilmarcat wrote:
Also did the math, I slot 6 extended and one normal blood frenzy giving me 2028 rounds of Blood frenzy or 33.8 minutes. The Cleric equivalent, Divine Favor, is limited to one turn (one minute, two extended) leading to a pretty big difference in uptime.
Yes, and clerics have much better AB, much better feats for combat and can actually hit shit while a druid with high enough druid levels to get the "good" blood frenzy does not. And how many extended spells you can prepare does not do help you when you cannot cast them while shapeshifted, so this is mostly useful in their normal form, which as said in high druid levels, severly lacks AB and damage and attacks per round.
P.S. I do feel Outsider Shape could see some love.
Air Elemental - If you maximize Call Lighting then the Air Elemental can cast infinite Maximized Call Lighting. I can do 137 Damage per-spell. I'd just need Haste and anyone not immune to Electrical damage dies. Literally a game changer.
I reported this bug months ago and it should have been fixed immediately. This is not a feature.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
infinite maximized acid fog/stone hold/call lighting here i come.
You're a dick, I'm the DM that told you not to do it, and that ruling never changed until the day I left,and I bet it didn't change after i left because no one reads the bugsd and exploits forum. Fuck off with this facetious "i'll break it until you fix it" shit, you're better than this.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
infinite maximized acid fog/stone hold/call lighting here i come.
You're a dick, I'm the DM that told you not to do it, and that ruling never changed until the day I left,and I bet it didn't change after i left because no one reads the bugsd and exploits forum. Fuck off with this facetious "i'll break it until you fix it" shit, you're better than this.
i was being sarcastic.
Commie wrote:
LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
Plus if we're mentioning Druids..
Air Elemental - If you maximize Call Lighting then the Air Elemental can cast infinite Maximized Call Lighting. I can do 137 Damage per-spell. I'd just need Haste and anyone not immune to Electrical damage dies. Literally a game changer.
yeah i was told about a year ago when i found this on cor that it was an exploit, should have been fixed when they fixed this working on shifter, and was a suspend worthy offense.
I do not think keeping comparing it to druids is the way to go here, it is an entirely different class. And we should focus on it like that. If I compare druid to wizard or cleric or paladin it is inferior by far except - lo and behold, one very specific build - so shifter by far is not the only class with this problem. It's comparing apples to bananas, we had the same issue in the BG thread where people keep comparing it to paladin.
Perfect balance is hard to achive in such a game. If you buff it all, then those specific builds become insane. Hence why we cannot buff the dragon form for shifters. It is the very same feat druids get. So if we would buff it, it would be insane on druids.
I think druid is the only class that shifter can be compared to given they have share some aspects being the ability to change form and being melee focused or spam unlimited spell focus, the major difference is that druids get their forms as freebies for just taking druid levels that you would take anyway for spells, shifters on the other hand the forms we get are the major focus.... and if shifter focus is weaker or around the same as a druid freebie then the form is meh.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
and if shifter focus is weaker or around the same as a druid freebie then the form is meh.
Pretty much this. We also have to remember that Druids are getting things like an Epic Animal Companion, an Epic Summon and other utility spells when not shifted. If a Shifter is only coming in at par, or worse then a shifted Druid, then why play a Shifter at all when that is the only thing they get?
and if shifter focus is weaker or around the same as a druid freebie then the form is meh.
Pretty much this. We also have to remember that Druids are getting things like an Epic Animal Companion, an Epic Summon and other utility spells when not shifted. If a Shifter is only coming in at par, or worse then a shifted Druid, then why play a Shifter at all when that is the only thing they get?
shifter is very 'one button go.'
as in
hit one button
then go.
seriously, a druid needs to ward for like 3 irl minutes, 1.5 hasted, to be competitive at all. with like 19 Shifter? it's like EMA and about 5 other buffs in one button and then you have stuff like infinite mass haste/imp invis.
6 vs 24 seconds to get melee combat ready. Druids actually have the least amount of buffs to worry about for combat out of any caster class.
Edit for Mav's - Undead/Construct vs Elemental. Additionally if your running Druid/Shifter/Shadowdancer your BAB is terrible and you have 3APR. And again, every time someone thinks Shifters are strong its limited to 10 Shifter. Why even take 11-19 Shifter levels these days? Free AC to reduce gearing restrictions when shifted?
Not sure with the spreadsheet saying Damage reduction 4 if it means Barbs 4/- some how.
Ok so then what about all the other forms we get that lack crit immunity? , other then ones that get critical hit immunity's Golem and undead are a total of 6 forms, and wildshape 1,2,3,4 humanoid and outsider form make up 19 forms.
And stating DR builds with risen lord means sinking your stats into Con, and again proves the point we need to basically pigeon hole our self at that notion how is any different then the days of everyone having to roll Dragon monk form, or Imp exp monk mindflayer spam?
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
Assuming that build is for the Stone Golem for the stacking of Immunity %'s and the utility , your going to be 9AC down on a Spectre from Dex + 3 AC from cross-classing tumble + 1 to 2AC depending on its size classification , leaving you with 48-49AC + 4 for self casted Mass Haste. You'd have 15BAB by 20, 20BAB by 30, meaning you still get 3APR. 20BAB+13 Max str mod + 5 weapon + 1 Epic prowess - 1/2 for size = 37/38AB. Good luck hitting something.
I said it befor long ago, I liked the semi-idea of Dire tiger form even if vs Animals suck. "2d12 Massive Criticals, On Hit: Slow [DC=24], +7 AB vs Animals, 2d6 Damage vs Animals"
I think having more forms that gained AB and damage vs a race that gave you a reason to it because really all the melee forms it boils down to AC and AB and since the non-feat forms are kind of meh compared to feat forms they have very limited use, I think the problem is we kept the same forms as NWN basic, we could have changed a bunch of the wildshape forms.
Harpy,Basilisk,Medusa....ect could have given us new monster forms that are more focused?
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
Joined: 12 Nov 2015 Location: The belly of the beast
Honestly. Sick of the nitpicking. Good. Take maximized elemental spells and they are -useless- Yes. Useless. Moderate AC and craptastic AB. Who the hell wants to 1 fish a call lightning for 15 dmg? Thats just absurd. This topic went from improving shifters, to trashing druids. Awesome. Since we want to be critical about everything, how about we recognize the fact we play in a 3.5 server and I am stuck with a 3.0 druid. Natural Casting or bust.
_________________ Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.
Okay, this is the last time I will comment on the druid part. This is supposed to be a thread on how to 'improve shifter' and that is what it is right now. All I see is a lot of griping on how other classes are better and no concrete ideas of what you'd actually want to see changed in shifters.
Anyways some last and final comments to me, and then we should get back please on the actual topic, namely where you see weaknesses and problems in shifters and how you feel they could be fixed.
Yes. If you do that in a non epic area that may work. If you try that in the Frozen Wastes (I am not even starting on PVP) your companion dies in less then a minute and you approximately another minute after.
Dire Tiger: Yes the druid one gets a little more weapon damage. Know why? Because it still does little damage in comparison. Shifters shapes (almost all of them) merge everything. Druids merge armor only. This means the base stats of the weapon (and that already is a lot) plus weapon buffs, do not merge.
Hide/MS: The epic druid "panther" form is the only that that gets HIPS. This means you need 25 druid levels at least. That shape is by far not the best shape. Who in their right mind, would invest 33 Hide and MS on a 25 druid build that can use it in one, single, mediocre shape? Druids do not exactly get skills in abundance, so doing that would be rather silly. If you invest 66 skillbpoints you would want to go druid/SD right away and not invest them into 1 shape that is not the best of shapes to begin with, only merges armor and you cannot cast in. If someone actually does that, they won't win much by this either. This form is a fancy gimmick, I highly doubt anyone would start building around it and I have not seen anyone do it.
In essence, the druid shapes are not better than shifter shapes in any manner or form. Alone the fact that they do not merge most gear and never weapons, make them by far inferior.
It is a lot easier to post here. A lot posts explode to multiple pages over a day. As a comparison, sadly, bugs are sometimes not even fixed after a year. The Underport spawn is a problem that persists, and seema like an easy enough fix. In the worst case, play around with conversations, which even I could do. Delete theold conv that checks for drow and make a new one that makes you spawn a Kampos. And it just steals code from the rest of that convo, no need to write anything yourself.
IA is a lot slower, if you get anyone to answer. And less people pay attention to that.
Dire Tiger: Yes the druid one gets a little more weapon damage. Know why? Because it still does little damage in comparison. Shifters shapes (almost all of them) merge everything. Druids merge armor only. This means the base stats of the weapon (and that already is a lot) plus weapon buffs, do not merge.
I wont lie I'm a bit confused.... I'm talking about shifter dire tiger form with the when I brought up the vs animal as my suggestion for the shifter class and focusing forms that lets face it are total junk and are nothing more then AC and AB vs everything or a gimmick power and when you get a form with a higher one it makes them redundant.
I think what we need to do is list the forms that are more or less basic AB/AC forms with no real unique aspects that make it selected for any reason over another form that has greater AB/AC.
Harpy Minotaur Basilisk Drider Manticore Drow Medusa Dire Tiger (its on the list but it has the perk of having a leg up vs Animals.)
Now given we are assuming focused shifter lets assume they have all the feat forms, like the 30Str,24 con Iron Golem with its +5 keen 1d10 electric greatsword with Improved Critical, Weapon Focus and Construct Immunities. It makes the list above more or less pointless as it gains better AB over all but Dire Tiger vs animals as it gets +2 AB vs them and extra damage as well unlimited use blinding seed AKA perma haste.
Medusa shares it Petrification Gaze spam with Basilisk that other wise is bad melee form, and its basic ranged aspect with Manticore. So you could keep Medusa and scrap the other two for very new and different forums.
Drow and Drider are basically the same, Melee form with a weapon focus, some SR and darkness.. Could cut one
Harpy Melee wise is lack luster, but unless you plan to spam Fear Howl or Stun Howl waiting for a one roll, your spamming Sonic howl to damage them because your not hitting them in melee.
Minotaur is a pure melee I forget if its Blood Frenzy caster level is shifter+druid, or caps out at CL 10.
Now this is not going to be super balanced but you will get the idea. Lets say we scrap drow form and replace it with a Dwarf form, as a race NWN wise they get. Offensive training vs. orcs: +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs. Offensive training vs. goblinoids: +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against goblinoids (goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears). Defensive training vs. giants: +4 dodge bonus to AC against giants.
Lets make it a Orc,Goblin Giant form where it gets some extra AC,AB or damage against them, or pick one or two of the races....more or less focus the forms that don't the perks of feat forms, but make them better against a select target as if the forms are nothing more then a AB number on a sheet one form will always take the cake and make the other forms not used.... but by focusing them in different enemies it gives people a reason to select them against key targets.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
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