AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Very interesting changes in the last update. I'm a fan of all of them, except the Shadow Mage Armor. Reason being, Mage Armor is used almost exclusively for the +1 Dodge AC past single digit levels. The cold/negative resistance is incidental at best. I know there was a problem with it stacking with regular Mage Armor in the past, but that was largely fixed. You could still get +1 from both sources, but I would have rather seen even that go away before you took away the AC completely.

Might I suggest instead that Shadow Mage Armor continue to give +1 Dodge, then the energy resistances instead of the +1 natural/Deflection/Enchantment? That way they both still continue to do what people need them to do post lv 10, without one being basically useless once you get your hands on energy resist and whatnot. We can have one replace the other on cast, and that way they don't stack any more either.

I re-enabled the stacking so you can have mage armor and shadow mage armor at the same time, but I may need to check that mage armor doesn't self stack again.

The idea was to make it more unique and not duplicate other spells so much.

Ah, well it's definitely unique. And it can still be unique if it gave 1+ Dodge.

Granted, my reasoning is largely based off of one of my PC's, but there may be others in the same boat. It untook regular Mage Armor a long time ago(didn't want to be tempted to be a dirty stacker and to make room for more spells). Basically, it's loosing +1 AC from my current build, unless I either wanna retake the original spell or find some other source of it. Which isn't impossible, Mage Armor is pretty easy to get a hold of. But speaking from a quality of life perspective, it would be cool if it still gave that AC. Comparing the two, they'd still be pretty unique, yet comparable afterwards.

MA: +1 Dodge, +1 Enchantment, +1 Deflection, +1 Natural
SMA: +1 Dodge, 5/- Cold, 5/- Negative

I gotta say, the choice of cold and negative energy seems a tad random.

Uniqueness, sure; but those specific resistances do seem a tad heavily situational -- especially as a replacer for dodge AC

They are two separate spells now in two separate slots. They don't need to be anything a like anymore.

I didn't choose what the resistances were, but I suspect it was those to be thematically in the shadow genre.

Quote:

Shadow Magic Missile: Each missile (max of 5 missiles) does 1d4+1 cold and 1d4+1 negative energy damage, with no save.

I will say I find this spell very interesting, sounds like something that would fit very well for a undead form ability

Maverick00053 wrote:

They are two separate spells now in two separate slots. They don't need to be anything a like anymore.

Except that the theme of Shadow Magic is that you're cobbling together a shadowy version of regular spells. Elemental resistance doesn't reflect Mage Armor at all. It's not that it can't be flavored with it, but it doesn't fit the original bill either.

Even taking it at "different levels, different slots" original MA is still a league better than this new Shadow Mage Armor, for the reasons mentioned. And in the arena of resistances, it's still easily beat out by a bubbly or elemental shield potion, both spells also being a 4th level slot. The aim of making it different is awesome, and I applaud that. But making it completely different for difference sake is self-defeating.

I like it, I think it's cool, and if it stacks with mage armor it gives you a reason to go illusion.

sick changes. keep em coming.

Stacking endless Shadow Mage Armor for AC was stupid. This change fixes tat and makes Shadow Mage Armor useful for resisting the shadows and energy types commonly affiliated with "shadow damage" on amia - cold and negative energy.

The idea was that casting Shadow Mage Armor with a single spell focus lets you wander the Shadow Plane while taking no damage.

It doesn't need to keep giving AC that stacks. AC doesn't need to be easier to get.

It stacks with bubbly and elemental shields, it's not overriden or useless, and it only gets better with focuses.

TormakSaber wrote:

Stacking endless Shadow Mage Armor for AC was stupid. This change fixes tat and makes Shadow Mage Armor useful for resisting the shadows and energy types commonly affiliated with "shadow damage" on amia - cold and negative energy.

The idea was that casting Shadow Mage Armor with a single spell focus lets you wander the Shadow Plane while taking no damage.

It doesn't need to keep giving AC that stacks. AC doesn't need to be easier to get.

It stacks with bubbly and elemental shields, it's not overriden or useless, and it only gets better with focuses.

me when i have illusion focus and changes come in

but seriously this is super fuckin cool. ty bros.

Quote:

It doesn't need to keep giving AC that stacks. AC doesn't need to be easier to get.

It stacks with bubbly and elemental shields, it's not overriden or useless, and it only gets better with focuses.

It's not making it easier to get, you're only taking it away from the people who already had it. And I was specifically suggesting that the AC from the two shouldn't stack if you look back. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Oh well.

The problem is that both spells operate off the same script, so picking and choosing which parts stack and which parts do not stack is complex and much more susceptible to errors that it would be if both spells did not operate off the same script.

Things aren't always so straight forward and simple as you might think they are.

I never meant to imply that it was a simple thing to do, only the worthwhile and thorough thing to do. But I've spoken my mind, it doesn't seem like it will get changed(for now, at least), and there are other ways to regain that lost AC for me and others, even if it means taking up the offer to re-arrange our spells once all these changes are finalized.

Moving on, two other points. I noticed that Spell Foci also add +1 onto the damage of the Shadow Magic Missile spells(both the negative and cold damage). That's great. It's missing from the update notes though, so we should remember to put that in when this is all finished up.

Secondly, I wonder would it be possible to do something special for the Illusion Spells that are in the Shadow Variants. We could always make them do their own effects, like has just been done with the others, but I think an equally neat(and possibly easier) thing to do would be simply to treat them as having +1 Spell Focus when cast via the variants. Shadow empowering Illusion and all that. For Ghostly Visage, our scaling is already there. We don't have any scaling for Darkness or Invisibility though, so here are my stabs at it.

Invisibility: Each Spell Focus adds 5% concealment that lingers after the invisibility has been lost. (Improved Invisibility-Lite).

Darkness: Each Spell Focus adds a 10% Movement Speed Reduction to the AoE. This can be avoided via Spell Resistance or Immunity to Spell: Darkness.

Edit: I just realized, even so, that Invisibility change doesn't really hold a candle to Improved Invisibility, which can also be cast from a lv 4 slot in the case of Shadow Invisibility. Maybe some other bonus is needed.

Not all spells are getting changes because they are simply in a class of their own. So dont be surprised if your favorites are ignored.

can't wait to see what happens to mass haste when you get around to enchantment!

All the enchantment spells have been gone through. Mass haste didn't get any changes.

Are there any plans to add other Mummy Dust options for the unlisted spell schools (or not-evil Necromancy)? I understand they're not really summon-related, but it'd be nice for people who focus in other schools to have a shot at a longer-duration summon. I say this as a player with a character focused in Necromancy (but who won't summon Undead) and Enchantment. Just so my bias is up front!

I just use one of the other ones, anyway. xD But still. Thought I'd ask.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Not all spells are getting changes because they are simply in a class of their own. So dont be surprised if your favorites are ignored.

This is true and I don't think anyone's expecting that. The bonuses you would have to give would have to be so little, yet still take as much time to implement, the time is better spent elsewhere. Could we have Mass Haste give +1 Reflex for every spell focus? Yes. Does the spell need it and is it worth the effort in the end? Not when we can fix other already underused spells. I want to assure you and msheeler that I understand that.

It does bring up another thought, though. I'm personally still all for taking a bat to "no-brainer spells" as I've called them before and only with spell foci letting them reach(or exceed) their current glory. Shadow Shield is a prime candidate in my book. It's so powerful we won't even allow it on items, epic, request, or no, and rightly so. So while this current dev-train motion is heading towards buffing spells and not touching bomb-ass super star spells, it is also a great opportunity to look and imagine how those could better fit into this concept of investment=reward we're building while fixing other spells. I.E. Mass Haste having a cap on how many are hasted besides the caster, Shadow Shield giving partial negative protection and maybe bonus saves vs necromancy, etc.

Got the VFX for magic missile fixed finally. Sadly when applying the bounce I am limited to beam type VFX, so I've gone with the lightening VFX. Most of the others were drown out in the fkash of the impacts.

As to EMD, no changes planned with it.

Schools left to do are some illusion, necromancy and transmutation. All other schools have been gone through.

Enjoying the changes to illusion. I have an epic...so. Yay! Thanks bunches.

Everything except Transmutation already has/had writeups on suggestions, they just need done.

Transmutation was the only one we never really got to. So the full wrtieups for Illusion are already there, as is Necromancy.

I couldn't find anything about this, but last night I hit myself with Confusion and got the stat decreases (but not the Confusion) even though I had both a Mindblank and Shadow Shield on. I didn't realize where the stat decreases came from until much later and had just been really confused (har har) at the time because I forgot we changed that!

So... Bug?

I admit I forgot to test it again or check my summons to see if it had gotten them through Mindblanks, too.

Happy to report that the Color Spray change appears to be working now and there is no interference with the sleep/damage thing I brought up earlier.

Jes wrote:

I couldn't find anything about this, but last night I hit myself with Confusion and got the stat decreases (but not the Confusion) even though I had both a Mindblank and Shadow Shield on. I didn't realize where the stat decreases came from until much later and had just been really confused (har har) at the time because I forgot we changed that!

I tested this properly just now. Mindblanks on both me and my wyrmling familiar. Both the caster and the familiar got -INT and WIS (Not CHA, though). It didn't strike me as intended behavior!

Here's a screenie:

Got the thinking, could we have Conjuration/Illusion/Necromancy Foci add something like +1 to the CL when determining what creature is summoned from Gate/Summon Shadow/Animate and Create Undead? In the meantime of actually re-scaling summons and such, that would at least give a small nod to PC's investment -> reward with them. You don't get a better summon(our summons are generally pretty good), but you do get the bigger summons just ever so slightly faster than other PC's. End result is the same, though.

Bug:

When I cast Fireball with ESF Evocation the debuff is incorrect. It gives the target Acid Damage Immunity Decreased, instead of Fire.

Jes wrote:

I couldn't find anything about this, but last night I hit myself with Confusion and got the stat decreases (but not the Confusion) even though I had both a Mindblank and Shadow Shield on. I didn't realize where the stat decreases came from until much later and had just been really confused (har har) at the time because I forgot we changed that!

So... Bug?

I admit I forgot to test it again or check my summons to see if it had gotten them through Mindblanks, too.

From what I can tell the new secondary effects are not blocked by Mind Blank and Lesser Mind Blank because ability drains are simply not a part of what those spells block. I am adding a check to make sure the target does not have either of those spells active on them before it applies the ability drains now. Keep a look out for the update in Bumbles update notes.

exquisitelyme wrote:

Bug:

When I cast Fireball with ESF Evocation the debuff is incorrect. It gives the target Acid Damage Immunity Decreased, instead of Fire.

Passed a fix for this to Bumbles, keep an eye out for it to be reflected in the module update posts.

Update on previous updates:

Shadow Mage Armor doesn't seem to be working with Spell Foci, having a static 5 resistance Cold and Negative.

Shadow Minor Globe of Invulnerability does not seem to be giving any bonuses to saves against Cold or Negative.

Shadow Melf's Acid Arrow and Shadow Web are working fine. Both are a big improvement from what they were.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Update on previous updates:

Shadow Mage Armor doesn't seem to be working with Spell Foci, having a static 5 resistance Cold and Negative.

How did you verify this? Do you have screen shots? I double checked this in a test module and also looked the code over and it seems fine.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Shadow Minor Globe of Invulnerability does not seem to be giving any bonuses to saves against Cold or Negative.

Again, how did you verify this? I looked the code over and it seems to be correct. This will not be reflected on the character sheet, only in the combat log.

Used Staff of Illusion for Spell Focus Benefit.

For the Mage Armor resist, had PC be attacked by Eyeball familiar inflict wounds ray and frost ray. Both only seemed to knock off 5 damage, rather than 10 with staff.

For Minor Globe, went to Frozen Wastes. Was no difference in combat log saves between PC with globe up or down, versus environmental damage. Also went to Shadow Plane and let PC be attacked by shadows for negative rolls, but also appeared to be no difference.

Tests were performed on B. At work now, cant take/upload screenshots.

Edit: The update notes make it seem like SMA isn't supposed to add any more resistance until Epic focus. If thats the case than it may be fine, I was just under threat impression that it was supposed to add 5 per from previous comments here.

I don't quite understand why Illusion spellschool in general, and creations of Shadow subschool have to be associated with Cold, Negative and Shadow Plane.

Because that's how dnd works.

That is true for the Shadow Plane, is the source of the cunningly named "shadowstuff", so that's clarified.

About Cold and Negative; following does not refer to elemental & energy qualities of the plane - Ctrl+F "Plane of Shadow"

Realmshelp also has no mention of Cold and Negative qualities of the Shadow Plane. Of course, there is a references to planar petitioner having Cold resistance. However it does imply Cold property only to the same extent as, for example, petitioner of Dweomerheart having both Fire and Acid resistances signifies storms of fire and acid rains.

FR wiki refers to the plane as energy-neutral with occasional pockets of Negative (as per Manual of the Planes 3rd ed.)

I can't seem to find references to Cold and significant Negative planar effects outside "Darklands".

It's mainly Shadows that are associated with Cold and Negative energies, Shadow being (natural)Undead(no cold damage) and being made out of negative energy*. From a gameplay perspective, I believe the goal was to give the Shadow Variants a theme and associated damage type, rather than have them copy already made spells. To have the Variants correctly take Illusion Focus feats into account, a totally new script has to be made. And if you're making a totally new script, you might as well make a new spell.

It's not the entire spell school that's being associated with cold and negative, only the 3 variants. If anything we could say we're giving "shadowstuff" an association with cold and negative damage. Illusion itself still remains largely un-typed.

Combat logs for previous statements sent to Mav and msheeler

*Funnily enough, summoned shadows are not immune to Negative energy. One would think they would be, but then again, living creatures aren't immune to positive energy, so eh. But the Shadow Summons are getting a rework anyway it seems.

Yup, Dark Immolation has the right of it.

Evocation's "domain" is fire and electric damage (though obviously they do things outside this), and Reflex Saves

Conjuration is Acid damage primarily

Illusion is Cold and Negative, and Will saves.

Necromancy is Negative + Drain Physical Stats+ debuffs, and Fort Saves

Abjuration is +wards +resistances

Divination is utility and +saves +skill bonuses

Enchantment is CC + drain mental stats + debuffs, and Will Saves

Transmutation is "uh, good luck, even I didn't finish that..." (though Dark Immolation had a couple good ideas he mentioned to me!)

That was my general thought process of spells when I designed them. This is outside of outliers like Enchantment having Mass Haste when it's very clearly not that school....

The Plane of Shadow has always been very poorly defined in most editions. The largest and most comprehensive explanation of it I've ever seen was a rather large article in Dragon Magazine (the planes/Planescape-themed edition) put out in the 2nd Edition era. In that article it said that the plane of shadow is an "even mixture" of positive and negative energy that came from "microgates" found in the plane (hence neither light or dark entirely).

Anyone interested in a reference can find the article I'm talking about in issue #213 if they're curious and want to see more. I've the print version tucked away somewhere in my pile of junk I can't bare to throw away but haven't touched in awhile. Heh.

To quote Tome of Magic.

"The Plane of Shadow (Shadow Plane)"

The Plane of Shadow neighbors and overlaps the Material Plane, and many of the others as well. It is a dark, twisted reflection of the real world, made all the move alien by its nagging similarities. Color is a faded memory, bleached from the world and replaced with shades of gray. The sky is an endless vault of black, with neither sun nor tars to break the gloom. Emotion are as muted as colors- love and hate, joy and sorrow, mirth and mourning are all less potent, less expressive. Only true needs- hunger, thirst, exhaustion, and pain- remain undiminished. Bring all the light you like; it will not shine half so brightly as it does in the darkest night of your own world.

The Plane of Shadow is the literal Shadow of the Material Plane, cast not by any light but by the mystical energies that hold creation together. The domain contains twisted reflections of everything that exists in the physical realm. Mountains rise from the earth, but they are perverse and foreboding. Structures stand clustered into communities, but they are wrapped and often worn.

The most twisted of all areas are the Darklands scattered throughout the Plane of Shadow. These stretcher of land are infused with negative energy. They suck life from those who travel them. Desolate, bleak, and forlorn, the darklands are the most inhospitable terrain in a harsh realm.

It is only natural to consider the Plane of Shadows lesser than the Material Plane. After all, it is merely a reflection of "true" existence, a shadow distorted by the angle of the light and the movement of the world. It is simple image without substance. A rare few understand a deeper truth, however. Shadow is sculpted in the endless darkness. Carved from the only force that is truly eternal, it has a greater meaning, and a greater existence, than the physical world itself. Rather than the Plane of Shadows poorly reflecting the Material Plane, the plane of light and substance is the ephemeral reflection of all-encompassing shadow."

I hope this help, MightNMagic. This is my favorite source of information for the Shadow Plane. And, it has loads more of information. (Classes / Spells / e.t.c)

But, if I understand correctly, the Darklands are where Shadow meets Negative Energy. They are just as typical for the Shadow Plane as the strange Rifts we have in places where a transition the the Shadow Plane on Amia occurs. Most places, in my understanding, it just is normal, without any real nehgative or cold aspects. It is merely a reflection, but an abstract one. It is more dark, reflecting certain things more than others. I mean, part of what Shadowcasters (Base Class) believe is that Shadow is eternal, and that they gain eternal power from Shadow. How else would one even lose the need for food, if the Plane leves hunger? Shadowcasters do. Wouldn't a draining, or negative, Plane even amplify hunger, and not just isolate it? The Shadow Plane isn't just "negative", that is the Negative Energy Plane. The Shadow Plane is eternal, and eternally dark. Light fades. When it does, what remains is but Shadow. Shadow is more than the lack of light. It is a force in and of itself.

Because Shadows are undead, they drain. Not because they are from the Shadow Plane. It's like rain. If it rains onto the street, the street is wet. But just because the street is wet does not mean it's raining.

The Shaow Plane is only as negative as your reflection in a mirror. It can reflect things that are negative, but that doesn't make itself negative.

At least this was my take on the Shadow Plane, based almost exclusively on Tome of Magic. My -interpretation- of that. I might be completely wrong, but that is how I would see the Shadow Plane. Not negative, not cold, just... strange. In a certain sense, wrong. It is certainly not normal.

We dont have 'strange' or 'anti-light' or 'shadow' damage effects.

The changes were made to give these spells their own niche and make them more useful in the Amia / NWN setting while at the same time giving the Illusion school some rewarding bonuses for those who want to spend the extra feats, so this is what we have.

msheeler wrote:

We dont have 'strange' or 'anti-light' or 'shadow' damage effects.

The changes were made to give these spells their own niche and make them more useful in the Amia / NWN setting while at the same time giving the Illusion school some rewarding bonuses for those who want to spend the extra feats, so this is what we have.

I, for one, really like the changes. So does my illusionist.

*facepamls* Yes. That actually is true.

the slow from the 'shadow conj web' doesn't seem to go away.

Been testing wall of fire on my cleric the past two days.

Hit both Pcs and monsters with it but it doesn't seem to be causing the damage over time effect.

The damage might be a bit to low, I'll try casting a maxed one tomorrow and reporting back

Uses maximized wall of fire

Does the standard 24 damage with no dot

Commie wrote:

the slow from the 'shadow conj web' doesn't seem to go away.

it also ignores sr.

don't know if intended.

msheeler wrote:

We dont have 'strange' or 'anti-light' or 'shadow' damage effects.

Magic Damage is an option from from thematic standpoint, but will have to be lower and/or require will save to compensate for greater damage potential due to lack of easily available reductions.

Commie wrote:

the slow from the 'shadow conj web' doesn't seem to go away.

it also ignores sr.

don't know if intended.

As far as I recall, shadow illusion always checks for SR, so it is almost certainly not intended.

Magic damage is absolutely not thematic for shadows.

It is the closest type to Illusion damage. In addition, Phantom Killer and NWN's default Weird do magic damage on save.

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