AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Piggybacking on the changes of items in the epic loot bin, the devs are hard at work implementing phase 2 and 3 of our next big sweep of spell changes and balance changes. This is to give the populace a general overview of the changes that are coming to Amia "Soon" (tm), as we code them, test them, and implement them into the mod. It's our hope that these changes add a lot of new flair to casters, while also not overpowering. Our main goals here are to bring very high end powered stuff in line while bumping up lesser used stuff into the spotlight.

Phase One: Epic Bin Item Adjustment
Done, see topic.

Phase Two: Adjusting Control Effects
Control effects being things like Hold Monster, Bigby's Hand, Fear, Confusion, and all of that stuff that directly takes control away from your character and makes you sit there bored and languishing while the game tells you "Don't worry, you'll probably die waaaaay before the duration of this effect is up. :mrgreen:

" Right now, many of these effects last an incredibly long time, longer if extended, and this has lent a degree of "if you fail this save it's basically instant death" to various spells in both PvP, while also making the chugging of constant mindblanks and bubblies and freedom pots an absolute necessity in a LOT of monster mashing areas, leading to frustration when the AI instantly metagames when your pots are up to smash you with a spell.

Here is a snippet of the ideas we're currently working on in regards to crowd control spells. This is NOT a full list by any regard.

Quote:

General rules Tormak Has followed: CC is reduced to last a number of rounds equal to the spell level of the spell. Lowest spell level the spell is available is used, i.e. Hold Person is Cleric 2 but sorc/wiz 3 -we make it last 2 rounds. Failed save gives the CC but also gives a debuff that lasts after the spell's CC is done. Spell Foci alter things.

Confusion: Reduced to 3 rounds Confusion, with a lasting -2 to mental stats for the remaining duration of 1 round/Caster level. Epic Enchantment raises the penalty to -4 mental stats, and adds an extra round to the Confusion.

Fear: Reduced to 4 rounds duration, with a lasting Doom effect (-2 AB, -2 damage, -2 skills, -2 saves) for the remaining duration. Epic Necromancy adds an extra round to the Fear.

Hold Person: Hold animal is included in this... Hold/Paralyze reduced to 2 rounds, with a lasting 20% Slow for the rest of the duration. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus each add 5% to the Slow, and epic Enchantment adds 1 round to the duration.

Hold Monster: Paralyze effect lasts 4 rounds, with a lasting -4 Dex penalty and a 20% slow for the rest of the duration. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus each att -1 more and 5% more to the Dex/Slow penalty, and Epic Enchantment adds 1 round to the duration.

These are not final stats and will be subject to tweaking and testing, but some general rules are being applied.
1: Crowd Control spells control effects will generally last a number of rounds equal to the spells level, currently capped at 5 rounds. Epic Spell Focus in the spell will add 1 round to the control effect. This means that a level 8 CC effect will currently still last 5 rounds +1 for epic spell focus. This is a VERY BIG CHANGE, we understand, but going hand in hand with changing items and effects, the team felt it was legitimately not fun for someone to get hit by a Fear or a Hold spell and spend the next 20-30 rounds staring at their character being hit until they keeled over dead. Especially on the low end these changes may be revised.
2: For the full remaining duration of the spell, crowd control spells generally exert a lasting debuff on the target. So for our Fear example, if your fear lasts 20 rounds, they are Feared for 4rounds and then that lasting Doom effect applies for the next 16 rounds. The idea is to give CC effects an effect that continues to occur even after the initial effect wears off, giving these spells a continued bite even after the initial 'your opponent no longer does anything' wears off.
3: Spell Focus is looked to to provide extra effects and extra power to the spells if chosen. This will be a continuing theme going forward as we continue to try to make spells do more interesting effects other than "+2 DC" for all casters, arcane and divine, who choose to focus in them. We're hoping to give all schools the love and care that Abjuration and Divination got.

This phase will probably entail monster changes and item changes to encompass the new way crowd control spells will work. This iincludes things like Permanent Freedom on items, which we were discussing about turning into 3/day on storebought items and loot items, with an as-yet-undecided situation for DC items.

This leads directly into...

Phase 3: Spells, Bells, and Whistles

Following those previous changes, we'll be looknigh at vastly overhauling a great number of spells to just in general be more useful or more fun. This will encompass both arcane and divine spells across all scholls with a large emphasis on spells that do not currently see use or only see use in very niche situations, such as spells like Fire Wall, Incendiary Cloud, Acid Fog, Ice Dagger, Horizikaul's Boom, Hammer of the Gods, cure and Inflict Wounds, Flame Lash, and the like. This will probably not entail new Book of Transmutation Pages, at least, at first. We are looking at encompassing core spell functionality, improved by spell focus feats. Currently bandied about examples (NOT final ideas, subject to change) are:

1: Fire Wall and Incendiary Cloud - SF gives +1d6 damage, GSF gives a Combust effect on targets that lasts after they leave the wall for 3 rounds, ESF gives +1d6 damage to wall and combust effect
2: Fireball - Each spell focus gives +1d6 die cap to the spell, ESF gives a 15% reduction to fire immunity, allowing comboing with future fire spells.
3: Cure/Inflict Line - SF adds 1d8 per spell focus to the spell, Epic Spell focus gives them a small AoE.
4: Flame Lash - Each spell focus adds a 10% movement reduction for 2 rounds, ESF attempts to Entangle foe 1 round on a failed save.
5: Chain Lightning - Each SF adds 2d6 to the main spell and secondary target's effect. ESF allows a target to be hit twice if enough creatures are present to bounce.
6: Healing Circle + Circle of Doom - bumped to 5d8 base healing or Damage, each SF adds 1d8, ESF adds a small regen or damage over time effect.

And much more. This is the phase that will likely take the longest, and we'll be looking at giving special love and care to spells in Evocation, Illusion, and Transmutation. Everything will see SOMETHING, but those are the three schools we've identified as wanting to help specifically.

This post is being made in an effort to help assuage worries from the community about our previous set of changes, and so players can see some of the developmental roadmap going forward. Please discuss or ask questions here and we'll try to answer to the best of our ability. Some of these changes aren't set in stone yet, so some things may not have answers. If you have ideas regarding how to change a particular spell, please post them here! There's no guarantee it will get used, but there's a lot of spells out there.

Am not exactly sure how long 5 rounds is. But it sounds short for stationary spell. Assumption is that a player is immobilized and then CCEd. Which is hardly ever, then again if you really removed freedom effect it might change, though I believe people will start doing freedom scrolls or something like that. And what about class that gives freedom as a permanent effect?

As a caster player who was focused in conjuration it was very frustrating to cast CC spells because nothing usually stays in those, better to use spells that target directly and not if the enemy happens to stay in the same spot. I don't see how these changes would change it so that we would start using CC instead of target spells.

Edit: And when you say love that divination spells got.... Skills increases in lore/spot/listen which don't last long and Power word range increased just a little. I wouldn't say divination exactly received love as much as just minor boons. Sure they are lovely flavor... But having to cast identify/legend lore constantly, even in extended mode, to keep the lore up... Lets be honest here. Waste of time and spells. True seeing lasts well enough. Claivoyrance, or however you spell it, doesn't last long. Power words hp range is most of the time useless due to heal pots and whatnot, more about timing and being lucky.

Wouldn't mind divination getting some actual useful stuff other than True Seeing. Or at least make them last longer in other cases. Only use for div focuses is if DM allows divinations do what they are supposed to do in P&p sense, which was rarely as I experienced in past. Might be different now though.

A single round in nwn corresponds to six seconds, therefore five rounds would be half a minute. Shadow daze for example per default lasts five rounds, which basically translates to twenty free attacks for a 4 apr character, which is quite a lot of damage that could be caused in that time.

Yes, but how many spells can you cast in 30 seconds? Wizards normally dont have 4 attacks or go to melee combat.

Magiros wrote:

Yes, but how many spells can you cast in 30 seconds?

5. Or 10, hasted.

I would also accept the answer of "more than enough to obliterate the opposition."

We will re examine divination spells. Don't worry.

I believe you would be able to cast five spells in 30 seconds... and I think ten if you are hasted.

I have to say Tormak's post sounds like a fantastic and welcomed series of changes.

Though I weap for all the potion sellers of the world, their finest potions suddenly losing a huge source of demand.

Personally, I think it will make the lower levels of spells NEVER used, since against normal spawns, it's not worth it, bosses you just want damage, and PvP doesn't happen in really low levels. But then again, lowlevel mindaffecting usually have a max HD... I presonally would enjoy if that was removed then...
Also, Daze? 0 rounds duration?

Magiros wrote:

Edit: And when you say love that divination spells got.... Skills increases in lore/spot/listen which don't last long and Power word range increased just a little. I wouldn't say divination exactly received love as much as just minor boons. Sure they are lovely flavor... But having to cast identify/legend lore constantly, even in extended mode, to keep the lore up... Lets be honest here. Waste of time and spells. True seeing lasts well enough. Claivoyrance, or however you spell it, doesn't last long. Power words hp range is most of the time useless due to heal pots and whatnot, more about timing and being lucky.

Wouldn't mind divination getting some actual useful stuff other than True Seeing. Or at least make them last longer in other cases. Only use for div focuses is if DM allows divinations do what they are supposed to do in P&p sense, which was rarely as I experienced in past. Might be different now though.

Yessssssssss, give us some love pls Mav

Undeath to death rarely works on the higher level undead since most of them have extremely high will saves. It chooses up to 20d4 so you're crossing your fingers most of the time. Can we have this spell give some damage against undead and/or increase the HD for each spell focus? Or something.

Elyon wrote:

Undeath to death rarely works on the higher level undead since most of them have extremely high will saves. It chooses up to 20d4 so you're crossing your fingers most of the time. Can we have this spell give some damage against undead and/or increase the HD for each spell focus? Or something.

I dunno about that. I've watched a lvl 30 caster tear up the labyrinth with that spell, slaying 4-6 critters with every casting. As a level 23 caster I was able to use a meta version (max or empower I forget) to kill 1 or two per casting instantly.

As far as the HD caps, I haven't touched a control spell with one of those yet, but removing that for the secondary effect might be interesting and make those spells more worth while.

Last edited by Tarnus on Fri, Jun 17 2016, 20:03 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Well, according to this: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Undeath_to_death Undeath to Death is (unintentionally) uncapped when used with maximize, in other words, a maxed Undeath to Death should destroy 120 HD (on the rare case of a 30th level caster) worth of undead, provided they don't make the save.

Last edited by Elyon on Fri, Jun 17 2016, 19:53 PM, edited 1 time in total.

It certainly does come in handy against the deathbringers in the labyrinth. Other than that, it seems useless in other places including the manor which is filled with undead who have extremely high will.

Maverick00053 wrote:

We will re examine divination spells. Don't worry.

All I need is love, love, love..... And this was all I reeeeally wanted to hear.

TormakSaber wrote:

" Right now, many of these effects last an incredibly long time, longer if extended, and this has lent a degree of "if you fail this save it's basically instant death"

Fear: Reduced to 4 rounds duration, with a lasting Doom effect (-2 AB, -2 damage, -2 skills, -2 saves) for the remaining duration. Epic Necromancy adds an extra round to the Fear.

Thank god. What about Fear Auras on critters? Like the Skull Crags Beetle Queen for example. I swear the effects are nigh eternal.

Yeah, Dragon Fear Aura we'll need to take a look at. As well as the other monster abilities.

These changes get my seal of approval. Upping underused spells and making it inciting to go outside the norm is always a good thing. As well I say right on to the CC effects change. Sometimes it's not the actual damage that is a problem, but that you can be incapacitated and can't respond to that damage with healing or damage of your own. In any case, I definitely feel these are steps in the right direction, essentially the "yet-to-be-seen mojo" I was expecting.

Two changes that I think might help us along that path are as follows, the first I'm sure I've mentioned. The second I'll put in its own post.

Monsters and Saves vs Death/Spells

By later levels, it's pretty tough to use certain spells against mobs. Sometimes this is intended, but a lot of time I'm sure it's just a byproduct. In essence, if we give monster hides +/-Saves vs Fire/Cold/Death/Spell we have a better handle on balancing them, rather than simply jacking up their base saves.

If we want a monster to be susceptible magic attacks and death effects but not to dev crit and other melee-oriented abilities, give the monster a penalty to Saves vs Element/Mind Affecting/Death, but high base Fortitude/Reflex/Will. When a mage goes to cast, the monsters will be easier for a mage to kill but not their warrior buddies. Alternatively, if we want a monster to be strong against mages, but weaker against non-magical abilities, give them low base saves, but their hides high bonuses to Saves vs Element/Death and so on. The result is a monster than is tough for mages, but meleers don't suffer useless Dev Crit because we wanted the mobs to survive Wail. The answer isn't to make all mobs just easy for mages, or all of them easy for non-magic, to but sprinkle in a bit of each, so everyone feels like there's something they're contributing in a party. As it is at epic levels, with everything having huge base saves and ample resistance, it becomes a bit boring as both mages and meleer choose whatever is more reliable. For meleers that just means swinging your sword and doing about nothing else, and for mages that usually means hiding behind a summon and nothing else. If you want to help Evocation, Illusion, and Transumtation in PvE at least, this would be a godsend to mages who feel like they can be nothing but a glorified pet handler at epic levels.

Added effects to Reflex Based Damage

Speaking of reliability, that is the major roadblock I see with spells that are vulnerable to Evasion, Resistance, and Immunity. Increasing the damage on these things can be an answer. But the way I look at it is this. When a mage casts a spell like Delayed Blast Fireball and it is saved against with Evasion or mitigated to near nothing with a combination of immunity, resistance, and normal Reflex save, they feel they've wasted an action. The spell has cost time(which can translate to health) and a spell slot and has done absolutely nothing. The gamble is, in vanilla NWN, not often worth the risk as compared to other things.

Incapacitating Spell: IF I beat your save, you can't move and I am likely to win the fight; if I fail, I do nothing. Worth it, because if I win once, I probably win it all.
Death Spell: IF I beat your save, I win the fight; if I fail, I do nothing. Worth it, because again, if I win once, I win the fight.
Reflex Damage Spell: IF I beat your save, I do some damage; if I fail, I do little or nothing. May not be worth it and I have to beat that save multiple times to kill you. Additionally, there are many effects(evasion, resistance, immunity) that make it much more likely that I will do little or nothing. And while all of this is going on, you have time to heal and undo all the damage that I struggled to do to you in the first place.
IGMS and Maxed Ice Storm: IF I press this button, you will more than likely take a certain, repeatable amount of damage. You can still heal through it like reflex based damage, but every time I do this action, you are taking damage, rather than having a chance to take damage. That makes it worth it.

So yes indeed, one way to balance the risk-reward of damage spells is simply to give them more damage. At a certain point the gambit of blasting them for a larger and larger chunk of their health, even if they save, becomes more appealing. But an alternative answer is to have these damage spells do affects in addition to their damage, even if the save is passed(though avoidable through other means). The upcoming change to Fireball is very much in this same vein, but a bit more comprehensive to all the reflex damage spells. And the fact that it goes across the board would mean it will be a bit easier than going into each spell and making it do its own unique thing.

In a nutshell, have minor touch-based effects added onto them depending on their element, regardless of whether the spell is saved against or not but subject to SR. Why touch-based? So mages aren't all just getting it for absolute free, and that there becomes an element of synergy to being a caster. D&D magic assumes their is no physical or aiming element of casting a spell and that is just lame to me. What sort of minor effects? Spit-balling:

Fire: %5 Maximum HP "burn". (You don't really have to be -on- fire to be burned, just near it and fire resistance is so abundant it can stand to get a little boost by default).
Cold: 3 Second Slow. Does not stack, but can be refreshed. (Even if you're not affected by cold, your clothes can still ice up or the ground beneath you. Buys you some time).
Electric: Clear Action Queue. (Static shock. Not as strong as a Stun, but a brief spasm that's going to make you lose a round basically).
Acid: 3 Second Daze. (Even if you dodge the actual acid, you can still be affected by the fumes. Ever sniff ammonia? Don't.)
Divine: 6 second Bane. Does not stack, but can be refreshed.(This is more abstract and I don't have an explanation other than the lingering presence and ire of the god who sent the spell).

The idea is even when you throw out your Reflex Damage spell and it gets avoided by IE, Evasion, Immunity, or whatever, at least it isn't a completely wasted turn. If you managed to "draw a bead" on the enemy, to place your shot so close to them even though they dodged it, you still did 5% of their max health, or slowed them down for a bit, or zapped them into briefly forgetting what they were doing, or nauseated them, and so on. The risk vs reward becomes more favorable to at least TRY damaging spells even if you're not sure they'll work. And if you're a frail little wizard who's mad you can't aim for beans, you can always cast True Strike before a reflex spell and give yourself a larger likelihood to get the effect, if you're willing to spend a round or 3 seconds on it.

Anyway, something like this idea has been my baby for a while. At one point I had some of its scripted, but things happened. With all of these new changes already planned to go in, it's probably best we wait and see if it's even needed, but I would personally love if something like this were considered. I like when we can build consistent narrative into our mechanics(underwater and mechanical enemies are weak to electricity, humanoid enemies having certain tactics based on their race, that sort of thing). Many games also have some sort of consistent theme between their types of damages(Skyrim, Borderlands), and it often makes playing them a bit more intuitive and rewarding when you use the right one and the right time. It'd be awesome if we could work our way towards something like that. But for now at least, I want to say I appreciate the proposed changes, whether anything else ever comes of them or not.

I like those ideas. But they seem a bit mmo-y and less D&D-y. I'd just rather give reflex save spells more damage so the risk is there, and spells keep their unique identity, rather then things like fire/cold/etc.

We're not ading touch attacks as a mechanic to spells, more than likely. It's not very thematic or consistent with how DnD magic works.

Commie wrote:

I like those ideas. But they seem a bit mmo-y and less D&D-y.

TormakSaber wrote:

We're not ading touch attacks as a mechanic to spells, more than likely. It's not very thematic or consistent with how DnD magic works.

Oh, but that's exactly why I'm suggesting it. I love D&D magic. And by the same token, I realize how horrible it is in many ways. If the Vancian magic system were a person, I would beat it with a piece of rebar in front of its wife and kids. Screw mages being "magic guns." But that is something we just have to live with at this point. Beyond that, all bets are off, really. Ultimately, being "thematic or consistent with how DnD magic works" is nothing to be aspired to. Nothing. It's like our Wit or Wisdom phrase says. "I don't play NWN[D&D], I play Amia." It's not D&D nor ever has been. If it were, my character with buttloads of Initiative would be legendary, rather than a gimped RP build. >_>

The alternative is that every reflex spell simply gets the bonus affects for free, but I feel that's too rewarding. You could keep someone perpetually slowed, burning, etc by constantly flailing at them even if your DC was like 14. Also keep in mind, we'd not actually be replacing anything with a Touch Attack, it's only an addition. Magic still, er, magically homes in on its target, regardless of the mage's ability to aim. BUT if you take the time to aim and do a good job at it, who's to say it doesn't make the spell just slightly better. *shrug*

much needed nerfs to the perma cc. damage spell buffs are cool, still think the reflex roadblock is going to be a killer to it in pvp. i mean +dmg means nothing when you can't beat reflex saves, it's the same story with save or dies, only worse.

on the flip side this makes pve content all the more interesting as it diversifies options and hopefully makes those evocation focus dudes the firebrands they were destined to be.

I'm not one to be able to comment on balance, but I like the love illusions spells are aimed to get.

One note though, will the intended 'debuffs' be susceptible to mitigation by bubbly and restore potions?

TormakSaber wrote:

Yeah, Dragon Fear Aura we'll need to take a look at. As well as the other monster abilities.

If you munch down the dragon fear aura, we may as well refund players a feat, as that is the only reason to take EDK other than flavor, or simply increase the duration to equal to that of Mummy Dust....or somewhere close

A specific change I forgot I'd like to see is one to Mestil's Sheathe. It might be warranted after the change to the rings now as well.

Mestil's Sheathe

Damage changed to 2d6 + 1 per level. Caster gains 15/- elemental reduction towards the respective element, Spell Foci adding +5/- to the resistance and +5 to damage.

I've always thought it was a bit gratuitous that you can take 60 damage by default of just hitting a mage as a meleer. Yeah it can be reduced or potioned, but even in PvM it's a bit much. A viable strategy at some epic places is to Mestil up and let yourself get beat on. When you take more damage from hitting someone than you are doing from hitting them, that totally slants the damage/time equation against you. A change like this brings it more in line with Elemental Shield, while yet keeping it slightly better(2d6 damage vs 1d6). It also rewards people for investing in Conjuration, rather than it being a no-brainer spell for every mage because it goes off of nothing but caster level thus far.

The resistance gives it a defensive element, no pun intended, and a dual nature. You can cast Fire Sheathe to go all out and do retaliatory damage against Ice Giants. Or, if you're looking to survive more easily rather than retaliate, you can cast Ice Sheathe. You likely won't be hurting them with Cold, but you'll have a better chance at actually surviving their assault rather than being a punching bag and hoping they break before you do. The Protection from Elements line still have their place too. They're for when you will be taking a lot of different elemental damages over time, while Sheathe becomes about tanking a lot of one particular elemental damage over a short amount of time, since the resistance can't be eaten up.

Dark Immolation wrote:

A specific change I forgot I'd like to see is one to Mestil's Sheathe. It might be warranted after the change to the rings now as well.

Mestil's Sheathe

Damage changed to 2d6 + 1 per level. Caster gains 15/- elemental reduction towards the respective element, Spell Foci adding +5/- to the resistance and +5 to damage.

I've always thought it was a bit gratuitous that you can take 60 damage by default of just hitting a mage as a meleer. Yeah it can be reduced or potioned, but even in PvM it's a bit much. A viable strategy at some epic places is to Mestil up and let yourself get beat on. When you take more damage from hitting someone than you are doing from hitting them, that totally slants the damage/time equation against you. A change like this brings it more in line with Elemental Shield, while yet keeping it slightly better(2d6 damage vs 1d6). It also rewards people for investing in Conjuration, rather than it being a no-brainer spell for every mage because it goes off of nothing but caster level thus far.

The resistance gives it a defensive element, no pun intended, and a dual nature. You can cast Fire Sheathe to go all out and do retaliatory damage against Ice Giants. Or, if you're looking to survive more easily rather than retaliate, you can cast Ice Sheathe. You likely won't be hurting them with Cold, but you'll have a better chance at actually surviving their assault rather than being a punching bag and hoping they break before you do. The Protection from Elements line still have their place too. They're for when you will be taking a lot of different elemental damages over time, while Sheathe becomes about tanking a lot of one particular elemental damage over a short amount of time, since the resistance can't be eaten up.

Think it would be better if it was one round per 2 levels and every time it was triggered it took off a round from the duration.

With changes made an implemented, will Sorcerers get to zilch one level and retake it to adjust spell books accordingly? Unlike wizards they simply cannot swap out spells at will. Once you take that last level, you are stuck like chuck. All your low level spell slots are usually full of "buffs", while your 6+ spell slots are full of your money makers. This selection of spells often reflected the usefulness of said spells in the current environment.

Good question, I'm not certain of the answer to that but it seems reasonable to allow it.

thunderbrush wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Yeah, Dragon Fear Aura we'll need to take a look at. As well as the other monster abilities.

If you munch down the dragon fear aura, we may as well refund players a feat, as that is the only reason to take EDK other than flavor, or simply increase the duration to equal to that of Mummy Dust....or somewhere close

I don't think Dragon Fear becoming say 5 rounds instead of 50 rounds is going to be back breaking for the summon and see no reason to need to refund the feat on this basis. It's still a walking murder machine and that aura is going to get a billion chances to go off every time you sumon it, vs one spell cast. There are a great number of reasons to take EDK. The fear aura is just one of them.

Quote:

With changes made an implemented, will Sorcerers get to zilch one level and retake it to adjust spell books accordingly?

Probably. I can't say for sure, but I'd certainly vote yes.

I literally took that spell for the flavor. I love the prismatic juvenile. The fear aura is just a bonus. I suppose I misread that. As long as the aura remains persistant, I agree that it wont hurt it. Comment redacted

I'm not sure I'm a big fan of nerfing CC durations that hard. Lower level spells like fear already have a much lower DC than upper level ones, and as a result are much harder to slap someone or something with. I'd much rather prefer all of them having 5 rounds +1 for epic focus OR 1 per spell level(max +5) +1 for spell/greater spell/epic spell focus.

And if you're reworking CC spells, why not give Dominate some love? Against players atm it only dazes and given you can drink potions while dazed, that's rather useless against anyone who didn't run out of mindblanks. I'd love to see it changed to something like a 5 round (+1 for esf) stun or "stand still" effect that breaks if the target falls below 40% HP or takes more than 1 damage per CL of the caster, to represent being given a command to stand still (but broken if damaged as targets don't obey blatantly self-destructive orders). It'd give the spell some utility and make more sense lorewise than just dazing someone, but dominating npcs. And serve as a consolation prize for controlly type builds that are going to loose most of their mojo with this nerf.

Gravemaskin wrote:

I'm not sure I'm a big fan of nerfing CC durations that hard. Lower level spells like fear already have a much lower DC than upper level ones, and as a result are much harder to slap someone or something with. I'd much rather prefer all of them having 5 rounds +1 for epic focus OR 1 per spell level(max +5) +1 for spell/greater spell/epic spell focus.

And if you're reworking CC spells, why not give Dominate some love? Against players atm it only dazes and given you can drink potions while dazed, that's rather useless against anyone who didn't run out of mindblanks. I'd love to see it changed to something like a 5 round (+1 for esf) stun or "stand still" effect that breaks if the target falls below 40% HP or takes more than 1 damage per CL of the caster, to represent being given a command to stand still (but broken if damaged as targets don't obey blatantly self-destructive orders). It'd give the spell some utility and make more sense lorewise than just dazing someone, but dominating npcs. And serve as a consolation prize for controlly type builds that are going to loose most of their mojo with this nerf.

personally i think 5 rounds of cc is a long ass time for one spell. you can and will die in that time against any not terrible player or reasonably statted and cr appropriate monster. that is a lot of seconds to just be idle and missing a lot of AC.

If you are looking at it from a pvp standpoint. I think the inference was that for casters who rely on these spells to control mobs, that would nerf they're playstyle. I don't think it's an extreme change, as at higher levels most spells are fairly useless.

Any chance we could see an immunity nerf to go alongside the CC reduction nerfs to actual make these sorts of spells viable? If the aim is put the power back into casters something along the lines of -

Lesser mindblank - grants +6 will below CL 10. Above grants Mind immunity as per normal.
Mind blank - grants mind immunity as per normal.

With Lesser Mindblank potions and scrolls at CL9, these sorts of nerfs would give non-casters a defense against CC, whilst giving dedicated casters a greater role as supports by providing immunity. Whilst still giving a more expensive option through scrolls to non-casters.

Gravemaskin wrote:

I'm not sure I'm a big fan of nerfing CC durations that hard. Lower level spells like fear already have a much lower DC than upper level ones, and as a result are much harder to slap someone or something with. I'd much rather prefer all of them having 5 rounds +1 for epic focus OR 1 per spell level(max +5) +1 for spell/greater spell/epic spell focus.

And if you're reworking CC spells, why not give Dominate some love? Against players atm it only dazes and given you can drink potions while dazed, that's rather useless against anyone who didn't run out of mindblanks. I'd love to see it changed to something like a 5 round (+1 for esf) stun or "stand still" effect that breaks if the target falls below 40% HP or takes more than 1 damage per CL of the caster, to represent being given a command to stand still (but broken if damaged as targets don't obey blatantly self-destructive orders). It'd give the spell some utility and make more sense lorewise than just dazing someone, but dominating npcs. And serve as a consolation prize for controlly type builds that are going to loose most of their mojo with this nerf.

Oh, this does bring up a point to calrify - any nerfs to Dominate would only affect PCs - we're not changing how Dominate works in regards to monster pets. Sorry, that may have been unclear.

I like a lot of these ideas, more creative than my own by far, but i was not thinking with portals.

I would like to see the spell CC duration factor in CL. I am biased, but i feel like higher CL should be rewarded with longer lasting effects than a lvl 18 on their CC. Maybe +1 and 2 rounds for every 5 levels after 20? So 25 and 30? This would tie into the idea of low level spells having a low CC duration, while also giving a boon to focused casters. It would also be ideal if these durations were doubled in PvM. Maybe even longer for single target spells.

For illusion, the first start might be to remove one of the two saves from their Phantasmal killer and Weird. I love the flavor behind the Will and Fort, but damn does it make the spells suck. A BoT page for Phantasmal killer to do a targeted, or small AoE Fear to mirror the (amazing) page for Weird would be nice too. Displacement should be changed to turns, if not hours. I know it's a lower level then Imp Invis, but it always felt useless.. outside of its inability to be purged.

For Trans, and this would work for some of the other schools too, would be to give their buffs a bonus. How to do this without making it to much? Well, one of the ideas was for the ability spells to improve. Default is 1d4+1, SF becomes 1d3+2, GSF becomes 1d2+3, and ESF gets +5 auto max. This would likely not tie into Emp or Max at all, though i supposed Emp could give another 1d2 on top? Max would just be letting you cast it at a different spell level for flexibility. I'd hope it would work with Extended though.

The other idea that would work with some other schools and buffs is additional targets. GSF/ESF give +1/+2 targets. So let's say our Epic Transmuter is standing next to our Fighter, said Transmuter casts Bull's Str on themselves, and it jumps to effect the other guy too. Flame Weapon? Effects two targets, Haste? Two. So on so forth. This is ideal for Trans, but could be useful for other scrolls none self buffs. Self buffs should stay self. What i'm shooting for with these ideas is playing on Trans being the Ultimate buffer, the guy everyone wants around. A ESF Trans, ESF Abju being a valued buffbot to any party!

I don't know if you guys want to go the route of BoT pages. Personally, i love that thing, and would like to see more options. Of them, Wail of the Banshee page that gives it X sonic damage, and a will save vs a short stun, maybe fort for deafness for funsies. Implode getting a page that gives it big blunging damage with a fort or reflex for half maybe.

Some other various changes.. Bigby's clenched fist could likely stand to NOT have a Conc mechanic. Ball Lightning could stand to be changed to work like Fire Brand, instead of its utter shit current version. Scintillating sphere could have its range set to match Fireball.

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Bigby's clenched fist could likely stand to NOT have a Conc mechanic.

That thing would be redic if you could throw it on then cast whatever.

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I don't know if you guys want to go the route of BoT pages. Personally, i love that thing, and would like to see more options. Of them, Wail of the Banshee page that gives it X sonic damage, and a will save vs a short stun, maybe fort for deafness for funsies. Implode getting a page that gives it big blunging damage with a fort or reflex for half maybe.

It's been explained to me by Sheeler than the BoT is sort of a cast iron mofo to work with, so at the moment we're looking at actual spell changes, plus spell foci bonuses.

Commie wrote:

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Bigby's clenched fist could likely stand to NOT have a Conc mechanic.

That thing would be redic if you could throw it on then cast whatever.

I don't see how. The only issue is if you can stack them, that might get crazy.

"Each hit causes 1d8+11 points of bludgeoning damage to the target and if they fail their saving throw they are stunned for that round as well."

The damage is fine, considering the duration, and the CC effect is SUPER easy to counter. "Oh, you can just dispel the mindblank!" yes indeed, one could dispel the Mindblank, then cast the spell. Then the target can drink another mindblank and if i choose to dispel that one, i also end up dispelling the Bigby too. Maybe i'm missing something, but the spell is shit for a Concentration spell.

TormakSaber wrote:

It's been explained to me by Sheeler than the BoT is sort of a cast iron mofo to work with, so at the moment we're looking at actual spell changes, plus spell foci bonuses.

That is a shame, if it is the case. Really is an amazing system. Have you tried to wine and dine it? Might warm up a bit!

What do you think about making CL factor into spell effects? Should a Fear cast by a CL 20 be the same as a CL 30? I know it affects SR, but that seems rather minor.

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These went in with todays update.

They may be changed as we look at things - specifically I think that CL mention about an extra round may bear some merit, personally, like an extra round at 25 CL.

I suggest discussing all spells- in chunks, starting with A and ending with Z maybe.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

These went in with todays update.

They may be changed as we look at things - specifically I think that CL mention about an extra round may bear some merit, personally, like an extra round at 25 CL.

Is barbarian fear still an intimidate check that resets every time you enter the aura (such as while being chased while running away)? is that getting cut down/changed to far less rounds with immunity and reduced saves for a bit?

Barbarian fear is not a spell. Right now we're working on spells.

The fear reduction is going to suck for HoJo. But I'll live.

TormakSaber wrote:

Barbarian fear is not a spell. Right now we're working on spells.

cool cool.

Do the debuffs for these spells work regardless of freedom? Because freedom makes most of these nerfs looked like that were to spells nobody is hurt by anyway due to freedom belts. I actually like the changes conceptually, but only fear is actually usable on that list.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Do the debuffs for these spells work regardless of freedom? Because freedom makes most of these nerfs looked like that were to spells nobody is hurt by anyway due to freedom belts. I actually like the changes conceptually, but only fear is actually usable on that list.

If you fail your save, the secondary debuff effects happen.

PS: These changes are accompanying a future change to perma-freedom on items. We chose to fix the long-lasting control spells first before altering the solution so that we didn't have a time period when very powerful control spells had no viable counter.

Awesome, I legitimately can't wait. Freedom potions are gonna be a new gold sink lol

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