AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Is it just me? Or... is Amia really quiet lately?

Strikeclone wrote:

I hope to see you in game and be a small part of helping Amia active numbers rise once more.

This, I feel is the most important part of what I read. I have not seen you ingame in quite some time, but I do hope that changes.

I'm prepared to hear responses when I ask a question, but, things that happened years ago, aren't necessarily relevant to our situation RIGHT now. Sure, they were factors in the past, and some will still be upset by them, but... the DM team is completely different than at that time, the server population is VASTLY different than then, and, I would hope that we can just move on and move forward. Otherwise, we are all doomed to dwell on past bad experiences and Amia simply dies.

So, when I say I wasn't meaning to start anything with you, I meant it. My responses aren't only directed at you yourself, but anyone who hasn't played in years and wants to come in now and tell us all that went wrong years ago. While it might in some ways be relevant, in reality, it's not.

If anything I said came across as snide or demeaning, I apologize, not my intent. My entire intent in this thread was to simply bring people back ingame, not bring up old bad experiences.

I'll try to be constructive and clearer then. The continuation of the arcanum was a mistake. Yossarin was great, I have looked back and won't deny it; but using the last few years of the arcanum plot (specifically those he wasn't present for) as some model for the server, as though its conclusion did or should have set the gold standard is simply just as asinine as my previous post was; and I unfortunately afford no merit to treating it that way. The DMs who took it up probably didn't organize its execution at conveption, and in some cases aren't even here still. They worked with what was there and, as I understand it, did a good job.

I should be clear in saying that I don't think if you 'did' have problems with it that makes you bad, but it has literally been a non thing that only 2 people have talked about for the entire duration of my tenure. Lingering on it is lingering on the irrelevant, isn't forward-looking, and does not seed the soil for the fruit of progress to later be sowed

I called people on Arelith out for doing the same thing over Light Keep.

The server actively can't improve if people actively leave and stay away because they assume single instances of contention (i.e: non-involvement) are foretelling of a situation which isn't capable of improving. The actions of a team which is human and therefore imperfect should be looked on as learning experiences to build up toward the day, and logic dictates that it will only improve with time.

I apologize for my wording, but I can't really apologize for the intent or context of my post.

I simply assumed it would actually be simpler and less vitriolic to present a point that is decidedly a pet peeve in a one line objective fashion, on the premise that I have no internal reason to see it as non-ludicrous. If I can't advocatee for it, I'll tend to assume my argument against it will speak as objective fact -- and I again apologize for being heavily opinionated.

If you don't want to return on an assumption of player toxin being intended and persistent though, I'm sorry to hear that's the case -- and will hope, assuming you're still reading my posts from an objective perspective, that your previous bad experiences have not been frequent enough to act as a detriment on RL. :c

EDIT: the Tldr of this was basically ninja'd by That Guy. Rip

FURTHER EDIT: It behooves me to mention I wasn't here for this (I have only been around a few months) and I, yes, probably lack a right to comment. Take my post with that in mind.

EDIT 3: Editting a post on a phone is hell ;-; I apologize for repeat doubleposting.

Yes, you have a point but that is not the whole picture.

Yes but you also have to understand that the Arcanum plot was atypical. That the plot lasted for 6 RL years + aftermath. During that 6 RL years only a limited number of people were able to participate until the final year, where the mass participation was mostly a bandwagon effect not real participation. During the arcanum plot every other plot was/seemed irrelevant, even the quintessence or the ones in the UD can be considered with coexisting intensity.

If people feel bitter about that then I understand it and it is nor my place or your place to feel otherwise. 6 years is a long time in RL too especially in contrast of an online game and it can definitely leave a lasting mark.

Please mind your words and toning in this as it is not your place to tell people what to do and this applies to everyone else in this thread. Yes, there are people who left (permanently or temporary) with a bitter feeling about the server because of that plot.

Now referring to a few previous posts:

Also, I would not share any apocalyptic sentiment about the low player numbers. Amia is stagnating for a while now, that is unfortunate. The vast majority of the former playerbase that were born in the second half of the 80s and early half of the 90s mostly moved on with their lives in a healthy way. However, even the great number of bright new and young players won't be able to replace that loss. That is how it is but we do not need to mourn that.

Even during the server's prime time the European day hours had a low server population. It may not have been 5-10 but 10-15 (not a big difference). For the most of the time I spent here I lived in CET timezone and I know in experience that at the time I felt that there is no reason to log in before 9-11 PM CET(3-5PM EST) if I wanted to interact with people....or I had to wake up really early to catch some US players online. It has always been like that but we still managed somehow.

Yes I understand the generic complaints about the players and the DMs. But most of these conflicts are based on the fact nobody dares addressing these complaints directly (respectfully...in a proper tone....like adults do) to the other side (player or DM...doesn't matter at this point). As such it will pile up and forms a passive aggressive behaviour...then later we will receive outbursts in public threads or IG which will eventually generate a toxic atmosphere, which will cause people to leave.

I am not dismissing the importance of the issues that many of you raised here. However, you all have to understand this: The way how some of you behaved in this thread and in other threads will also drive players away, especially new ones.

That time zone is a bitch.

It may be useful to make a thread where people would post their timezone and adjust the game accordingly (DM wise, plot wise... and so on).

I appreciate your taking time to address my point, Lutra! I didn't really take the time frame into consideration, nor know the amount of times folk could get involved. :/

That sucks, but I do think the core of my post sort of stands. I want to assure people from experience: 'it will improve/has improved'.

I fully agree it isn't quintessentially my place to 'tell people how to feel' per-se, but I also completely agree that we as players and DMs can be much more productive bringing our quips and commentary open to and between one another.

Issues can really be handled way better by communication.

-and in another point from your post, I also agree: many old players have simply 'moved on' and that's merely a fact of the situation. Some will literally never return to NWN on Amia or otherwise; and can we blame them?

It's not 'attitude'. Not for everyone. Some people are just gone. Years have come, they've passed, and as the new car smell of the server and NWN got filled by the one of years used, "old reliable" was put out to pasture from their collection.

I personally encourage new players to look at this server as though it's never been around before. Hook up to current factions/movements or make your own (I am severely sad WT is inactive and would love to see a group move in there

)

Old players? The same. The DMs are different, devs are different, playerbase is different. Why let 'missing old faces' keep you gone? That's silly -- like going to a server you hate because it has more people, and I do want to understand it; but I also feel like if you move past that you'll see there's a lot of new people with fresh ideas waiting for a call to action.

We'd love you back.

That Guy wrote:

but, things that happened years ago, aren't necessarily relevant to our situation RIGHT now.

I strongly disagree, because its how we got here and it must influence who is still here and who has left and might come back (me for example) and so on, and from reading the forums quite a bit of late as well as a few "interesting" encounters in game there is still a lot of cliqueness about the server.
I could not put a percentage on how much of the population have a certain clique about them for obvious reasons but given the relatively small active player base I would humbly submit that the impact of even a very small number of players with negative or selfish mindsets could be magnified pro rata.

That Guy wrote:

the DM team is completely different than at that time, the server population is VASTLY different than then, and, I would hope that we can just move on and move forward. Otherwise, we are all doomed to dwell on past bad experiences and Amia simply dies.

Yes "vastly different" but evolved out of those who came before, some of whom acquired or inherited certain OOC behaviors I felt were incompatible with a RP server, for instance the use of OOC party chat to arrange for mere OOC convenience IC matters. Some of those players were even known to ICly pvp party members who were not "obeying" the OOC loot order for example.
Some of these players then went on to become DMs carrying their ways with them. I speak only from direct personal experience and cannot speak as to how others of that time perceived what was to my mind a very steep decline in RP standards albeit in small subtle steps.

I'm aware that simply having different understandings, standards or expectations of what constitutes a good RP culture will vary from person to person, I merely say that at the time I saw and felt a shift in the server culture that had me being pvp'd for not obeying ICly, OOC party chat in the worst case and at other times being kicked out of party for trying to RP things other party members were complacently waffling about in party chat.

And I didn't appreciate it.

I have no idea if the server culture today retains any of this bias towards OOC, and I won't until I have gathered more in game time which I hope to do in coming days work permitting.

But if you see me around I won't be using party chat for anything IC and its likely you won't see me using party chat at all as I often have it filtered out. Some players have even been known to thank me for reminding them that its OK to keep many things IC that they had let slip into being routinely dealt with OOCly, whilst at the same time being "bored" with no RP..Irony eh.

That Guy wrote:

but anyone who hasn't played in years and wants to come in now and tell us all that went wrong years ago. While it might in some ways be relevant, in reality, it's not.

Again you circle back into "learn from history or you will repeat it territory, I know you probably don't mean to but sentences like this sound almost indignant that I have an opinion about the server on which I was very active for years and have remained occasionally active ever since just not on the same level.
I would suppose that if you had all the answers then you would not have started this thread questioning the state of the server population, and if you think that the social history of this servers population is irrelevant I would urge you to think again.

That Guy wrote:

My entire intent in this thread was to simply bring people back ingame, not bring up old bad experiences.

You won't do that by hiding from events and trends that have lead the server to its current state, nor will it help change things for the better to be dismissive of facts and experience presented by those who were there and know.

I can't speak for anyone else but I have no axes to grind or grudges, I do not think grand gestures or plans are required here, but the sharing of experiences good and the bad as a means to provoke thought in all players about how they could better handle conflicts of any kind within the community.

For example, someone reading this right now might currently be a player who has or does use party chat excessively but when they joined the server it was considered the norm but having read my words or anyone's for that matter it might strike a cord with them that maybe they see how it might be detrimental to RP and how they might not only be missing out on quality RP whilst ditching a lazy bad habit they may also make someone else's day by engaging in low banal interpersonal RP in order to determine loot order, or where to hunt next and thus increasing the immersion for all who witness it.

P.S. obviously the example is just that, an example. It doesn't need dissecting and disproving because its use is to highlight the concept, it is not the concept itself.

P.S.S. I say the above words somewhat tongue in cheek as I would rather keep the conversation high brow and avoid providing fodder for those who seek to win the internet with a little reductio ad absurdum :lol:

It's a game. Either play and enjoy, or don't. It's really that simple. I don't worry about things in the past, just what happens now as that's all I can do anything about. I get your points, but... to me, in my apparently simple minded approach, it makes no difference to what I do today.

I liked your post, Lutra!

Where has that opinion been all this time, as a player? HUH? (Just kidding. I definitely saw it in private, but I like you expressing yourself publicly, too.)

The only thing I'll point out, in response to your commentary, is that (at least) two other servers are seeing a dramatic increase in players and activity count currently. So I think that's something that correlates to the... significant decreases here. I don't base my opinion solely off hunches and my dramatic interpretations. I don't only mean to sound apocalyptic (though admittedly I am). As a leader of the community, you should think about that- and I would expect you know about it, too!

That Guy wrote:

It's a game. Either play and enjoy, or don't. It's really that simple. I don't worry about things in the past, just what happens now as that's all I can do anything about. I get your points, but... to me, in my apparently simple minded approach, it makes no difference to what I do today.

Why are you so intent on ignoring server history as a key to understanding the present.

If you don't like hearing contrary opinions do not make public posts asking for them.

Oh you might want to avoid putting words into peoples mouths then taking umbrage at what they have (not) "said", I never called you simple minded nor did I insinuate anything like that either.

In fact there are three uses of the word simple on this thread page, and you used two of them the other wasn't me either.

Anyway you are starting to annoy me now with your passive aggressive bullshit and its triggering a sense of humour loss on my part, I have said all I wanted to say.
You are of course free to ignore it in your own mind but I will thank you not to make public posts questioning things if you really are determined to hear no opinion or experience but your own except other than to dismiss them out of hand whilst sitting in your ~safe space~

Strikeclone wrote:

That Guy wrote:

It's a game. Either play and enjoy, or don't. It's really that simple. I don't worry about things in the past, just what happens now as that's all I can do anything about. I get your points, but... to me, in my apparently simple minded approach, it makes no difference to what I do today.

Why are you so intent on ignoring server history as a key to understanding the present.

If you don't like hearing contrary opinions do not make public posts asking for them.

Oh you might want to avoid putting words into peoples mouths then taking umbrage at what they have (not) "said", I never called you simple minded nor did I insinuate anything like that either.

In fact there are three uses of the word simple on this thread page, and you used two of them the other wasn't me either.

Anyway you are starting to annoy me now with your passive aggressive bullshit and its triggering a sense of humour loss on my part, I have said all I wanted to say.
You are of course free to ignore it in your own mind but I will thank you not to make public posts questioning things if you really are determined to hear no opinion or experience but your own except other than to dismiss them out of hand whilst sitting in your ~safe space~

Passive aggressiveness and open hostility being the default responses of too many people is one of the fundamental problems with the server and the direction its been going. This sort of mutual hostility drives away one or both parties all too often, and on top of that tends to drive away the few potential players prowling around out there, and reaffirm for other people why they left. Insults and the like need to be kept as much as possible off forums. You don't have to agree, but one of the steps that needs to be taken is more civility, and the other needs to be more compromise on ideas.

Using knowledge from the past may be useful in getting people back into the server, through learning from past mistakes, and fixing policies that may have resulted in players leaving. Thus I think the best way of bringing up past events is showing how they affect the server to this day, other than the lower amount of players. I.E. What are policies that are unattractive to a current generation of players, or would prevent old players from coming back?

If utilized correctly, these answers may be most useful to the playerbase.

I taught a full-house.

http://i.imgur.com/yjlbt8N.jpg

Not quiet in the delta academy

DolphinRacer wrote:

Passive aggressiveness and open hostility being the default responses of too many people is one of the fundamental problems with the server and the direction its been going. This sort of mutual hostility drives away one or both parties all too often, and on top of that tends to drive away the few potential players prowling around out there, and reaffirm for other people why they left. Insults and the like need to be kept as much as possible off forums. You don't have to agree, but one of the steps that needs to be taken is more civility, and the other needs to be more compromise on ideas.

^This x1000. It goes on IG, from comments made in party chat or tells, to clear OOC driven comments done ICly. Then logging onto the forums and seeing it...it wears a person out. I've brought several new players here and a returning player and they all said the same thing; Amia felt too toxic with all of the saltiness, cliques and so on. Each one of them has left the server and won't return, or will only log on to rp with specific players. Please, none of us want to see the server dying, lets all stop a moment before we hit that "Enter" key and remember there is a person on the other side of the screen who does have feelings. Thanks. <3

"

CrazyCatLady wrote:

DolphinRacer wrote:

Passive aggressiveness and open hostility being the default responses of too many people is one of the fundamental problems with the server and the direction its been going. This sort of mutual hostility drives away one or both parties all too often, and on top of that tends to drive away the few potential players prowling around out there, and reaffirm for other people why they left. Insults and the like need to be kept as much as possible off forums. You don't have to agree, but one of the steps that needs to be taken is more civility, and the other needs to be more compromise on ideas.

^This x1000. It goes on IG, from comments made in party chat or tells, to clear OOC driven comments done ICly. Then logging onto the forums and seeing it...it wears a person out. I've brought several new players here and a returning player and they all said the same thing; Amia felt too toxic with all of the saltiness, cliques and so on. Each one of them has left the server and won't return, or will only log on to rp with specific players. Please, none of us want to see the server dying, lets all stop a moment before we hit that "Enter" key and remember there is a person on the other side of the screen who does have feelings. Thanks. <3

"

Definitely been in such a position, myself, countless times. Be it the actual person bringing folks to a server (this being one of them) or actually being someone brought to a server. It feels pretty bad when those folks you bring over don't want to stick around due to toxicity or similar stuff, especially since that generally indicates that there's enough of it to where even new players can see it. Having been a player brought to a server where there was a bit too much toxicity myself, I know how bad that feels as well. It's a damn shame to see so much toxicity in this thread, as well, as it's kinda become a thread of discussion over ways to help the server. Whether it's to help in bringing new or old players, working on perhaps outdated policies, or otherwise. I'll admit from my own standpoint, while I am sticking around, it's not the DMs or policies that's kinda making me second guess myself. It's more the general toxicity of the players in general. Taking a moment to simply read over what your about to post and ask yourself if something like this would irritate you. Or, hell, even have a friend or something take a look at it, if that's a possibility. Stuff like that.

Why are we still posting here? Nothing good or constructive will come of this post.

Strikeclone,

Okay... I re-read all the responses between you and myself in the past days, because I felt badly that I'd offended you. Absolutely not my intent, and I sincerely apologize.

I agree with you on the OOC and party thing. I don't belong to Skype groups because of bad experiences on an ooc level. In general, if it can be done IC, I do it IC. Party is for communication outside of the game, or... on the times you need to coordinate meeting, etc. Totally with you there.

In my opinion, what's occurred is you were the last to write about something that many had written about, the Arcanum War. It was perhaps a knee jerk reaction on my part to try to quell the tide of more bad experiences coming out as a result. Thus, I really wasn't aiming at you per se, but instead, trying to put back on track the positive ideas for improvement that had been the few previous posts before yours. This thread is getting quite old, and a lot of people have said much of what you said, so again, I apologize for essentially trying to stop you from saying it again.

Anyway, I wanted you to know that I harbor no ill will, no hard feelings, and sincerely apologize for our how I came across.

Dolphinracer, CCL, you two know me, and I would have thought you'd understand my meaning. I wanted to keep things positive not dig up old bad feelings again. Perhaps I went about it a bit wrong, and I honestly feel badly that it offended people. Though I do think a lot of people don't read with open minds much anymore, I'm guilty of it myself sometimes, we simply want to see the worst, and so we interpret the words into the worst. I never meant it that way, was actually trying to steer things more positive. Alas, this is how words from a non-professional writer can be taken, misinterpreted, and misconstrued into wholly different ideas than were intended.

My comment wasn't directed at you, That Guy. Why you automatically assumed that is beyond me. It was a generalized statement towards the entirety of the server, including myself (as seen by my comment "let's all").

Was because Dolphinracer included me and Strikeclone in his comment, and you commented on that.... assumptions.... my bad.

for the record i like everyone except tormak "known lamer" saber.

That Guy wrote:

I sincerely apologize. \\// what's occurred is you were the last to write about something that many had written about, the Arcanum War.

Likewise I apologise for getting the hump as well but as I never mentioned the Arcanum war maybe that was the confusion lies. I was speaking of events long before that Arcanum plot although to be fair a lot of what I said was relevant to the Arcanum plot as well.

Look I harbour no ill will either I just wanted to have my say which I have had, people are free to take it or leave it as they see fit.

Excuse me, that is a bunny with two pancakes on its head.

No. It's double-pancake with a bunny on it's ass.

Estara wrote:

I liked your post, Lutra!

Where has that opinion been all this time, as a player? HUH? (Just kidding. I definitely saw it in private, but I like you expressing yourself publicly, too.)

The only thing I'll point out, in response to your commentary, is that (at least) two other servers are seeing a dramatic increase in players and activity count currently. So I think that's something that correlates to the... significant decreases here. I don't base my opinion solely off hunches and my dramatic interpretations. I don't only mean to sound apocalyptic (though admittedly I am). As a leader of the community, you should think about that- and I would expect you know about it, too!

That is a fragment of my general opinion and I am generally careful writing that down because there is no civilized way to address the issues that I have seen here over the years...and I might as well get banned as a player and as a DM.

And as I said I do not dismiss the issues you all addressed here and we are discussing it. Now the team is bigger than ever in contrast of the playerbase (the number of DM/players is the highest with the low population!) and the fact that the playerbase is not satisfied is indeed an issue we have to address.

As for the rest of you! Love eachother and be happy!

We have a lot of issues, like every community, this will never be Pleasantville. And threads like these can help us to see and locate where all of the negative things are coming from, but if we aren't careful with how we treat each other, it can quickly become just another source of the negativity, whether or not that was the original intention (and its usually not, if ever). So yeah, what Lutra said ... love each other and shiz!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSM5MpKSnqE

No.

Last one one the server is a rotten pickle!

Elorathall wrote:

DireCorbie wrote:

Excuse me, that is a bunny with two pancakes on its head.

Guardian wrote:

No. It's double-pancake with a bunny on it's ass.

And here I thought we were allowing porno on the forums. I thought it was two pancakes having sex on a rabbitskin rug, the one on the bottom looks like she's enjoying it.

Open mindness and no limitations to creativity is everything. :mrgreen:

Above statement hits a core.

Anyhow, what I would be interested to know is that is there anything from DM point of view being done to the issues that came up here? While they are issues that have transpired elsewhere too. Secondly, I do find it interesting that a DM view can not be said in fear of being removed from DM team and from forums alltogether. Or perhaps I just misunderstood your point Lutra, apologies if I did.

Is there actual implementations coming that would make Amia more approachable from player point of view?

Some issues, I personally, find:
- No interest to start a new character due to slow lvl progression, in cases if you don't want to grind 24/7 or don't happen to have efficient team.
- No interest to start a new character due to the amount of time it takes to get anywhere really. OR it might be just false view too.
- Low interest to start any projects because having to due shit load of fact checking in order to get anything moving and on top of that if DM team even has interest to run it.
- Low interest to do much because of the fact that if anything is being done it is all about lore lore lore and investing 24/7 in the game. Which is even harder if you are a player outside the general DM timezones.

Anyhow, interested to see if there are actual implementations coming in any way to make Amia more appealing?

EDIT: And I do not want to hear excuse of "Its an old game". We know it, but we also know the numbers could be more pleasing to the eye.

EDIT 2:

One more thing came to mind:
- Not much flexibility in developing interesting stuff, seems like all in fantasy game has already been established by lore and research seems pointless, if you hope to come up with something original stuff.

Magiros wrote:

And I do not want to hear excuse of "Its an old game". We know it, but we also know the numbers could be more pleasing to the eye.

This. I am so tired of hearing this from everyone. It's a scapegoat.

People used to call Sinfar a joke, well guess what? Amia is becoming it. The server has issues and no one wants to recognize them. It's always 'something else', and I have been biting my tongue for a long time on the specifics (talk to the players that have left over the past 2-3 years, you will understand). All you should need to know is in my original posts in this thread, because that is the watered down version of what disgruntled players have said.

By the way: Arelith has 45 people, Sinfar has 111 people (not counting 52 on the Web Client, some of which are RPing on there also because that's a thing that people do), and we have 10. And in the past hour of me checking Sinfar's player list has had some players that refuse to return to Amia due to issues with DMs over the past year or so. Just pointing that out.

edit: And before anyone points a finger, I have been logged in lately. Just none of you realize it.

You will disagree with DM's. They are there to say yes or no to things. That's what DM's do. I don't get everything I want, far from it. Most of the time when it seems like something new or different, I will get a DM's opinion privately. Sinfar is popular because you can fuck there. Period. Don't try to sell me any excuses, or convince me otherwise. I know its a well engineered module. I know you can be anything and do anything. You also have dicks everywhere. Forgive my choice of diction, but I rather dislike when Amia is compared to that. Please. Sex sells. That's why Sinfar exists. I'm not judging anyone for playing there, but the difference in numbers is for obvious reasons. Aerilith is a very mature module with an adult player base that does not cater to the new, young or inexperienced player. My advice if you are going to start there. Make a female PC. Within 3 months you will own the place.

What is it people think will make this a better place?
Here is what we have.
Updated, enhanced spells and summons.
Additional subraces
Requestable subraces
Modified Prestige Classes (all for the better)
Requestable PRC's
Legal Skill Dumping. (Also the number one reason for class balancing issues.)
Requestable PLC's
Requestable bottled companions.
Allowable, Lorebreaking class/race combinations.
Requestable Visual Effects
Bottled Companions.
Areas that are "Up for Grabs"

I think what the problem may be is that too many people want things without feeling they need to put in any leg work.
Oh yeah..that and they get sniped by assholes every time they post something on the forums.

There are a few players who have actually done a ton of research and developed new stuff in a variety of fields past the traditional Forgotten Realm lore. It is possible and quite doable.

I can't exactly attempt to resolve an issue with the DM team when people refuse to actually explain what is wrong? I hear a lot of hushed talk about problems with the DM team but no one has ever provided actual evidence. I understand the fact the DMs are a bit focused in one time zone right now but we do take applications, and encourage a DM to step up to help those players in the off hours.

There is a lot of anger at the past, which virtually none of the team currently was involved with, so I can't really say much to appease the bitterness.

From my perspective players just lost the imitative to do things and pursue stuff. There are still players who are pursuing things, bugging the DMs, writing and getting the RP done and they are seeing results.

I want you all to have fun but finger pointing, bitterness, and pettiness isn't going to be the solution. This thread has degraded pretty rapidly, imo. The DM team isn't perfect and the DM team of the past certainly wasn't perfect either. All of the DMs are DMing because we love this server just as much as you all if not more.

I am more than willing to listen to any feed back you may have. My DM style and preference isn't enjoyed by all but I can always change/adjust. I always try and be fair during my events and react based on the players actions. It isn't always the most pleasant of outcomes.

Over this past year I have been pumping out plots, sub-plots, and doing an insane amount of back ground work. I have been pushing for the publishing of request-able items, classes, spells, and more. I have done a lot of that work, that scripting and testing, by myself as well. The only reason I mention this is because of some of the finger pointing saying that DMs aren't doing enough. There is always far more happening in the back ground than people are aware. Being a DM is like having a second job and the hours can be brutal. I am not saying your concerns aren't warranted but simply providing some insight from the other side.

I have been doing my best to give you all the tools you guys need to create something new and fresh. Yes, I am also doing my best to infuse interesting stuff into your every day lives but meet me half way? Log in, RP with different people, make a new character, but most importantly just try and have fun. One of the best things I ever did when returning to Amia was toss aside my old characters and start fresh.

We have two new fresh blooded DMs, Lutra and Tarnus. Use them and abuse them.

Stop judging, stop being a douche bag. Stop bringing up old shit. Respect your fellow player. I think we would all benefit from this approach.

The only thing I want to clarify is that the DM issues spoken of are not from being told no about things, it's from attitude and such. Things that I (and several others) have mentioned from over two years now. Things that players are still at odds with, new blood or not.

By and large our largest issue is toxicity, whether it comes from DMs or Devs or players it doesn't matter. That is what has been killing our server and people keep doing it.

I dislike spreading 'bad vibes' but sometimes you have to speak up. I just wish it didn't feel like fighting an uphill battle on a 179 degree incline.

This is what i hear.

https://youtu.be/ss2hULhXf04

I'm seeing mentions of stuff that you can't do because 'muh lore', but nowhere am I seeing mentions of efforts to drive RP with other players :^)

Seriously -- the most important thing anyone on this server can learn to do isn't some vague DM shit. It's not some 'the players are responsible' thing. It's literally none of that, and the reason toxicity exists is because irreverent and bitter people won't let bygones be bygones with DM team history.

It's literally 'just' to interact with each-other. I keep hammering in this message, and I don't really know how to make it clearer. I despise Arelith, but everyone there readily understood/understands that their job is to assume the DMs will never do anything and create interest groups among one another, conflict with other interest groups, etc etc.

Not subscribing to the doomsayer bandwagon, but if you really want the definitive 'how to improve shit'; it's not the DMs that need to take a hint from the player numbers of other servers. It's us.

TLDR: Stop whining about spilled milk. In fact -- I defy everyone who is complaining to completely avoid touching the OOC forums for the next few days or so. I further defy the people who say there's nothing to do, and suggest...

Log onto Arelith maybe 1 time, wander for about 2-3 minutes; notice the 'way' people interact there -- not the substance of those because they're largely toxic, but the way they talk. The message boards. The town criers. Then I implore all the DM attention spoiled prats to note there hasn't been a DM event of any large scale there in literally years.

Amia needs that attitude here, the idea of responsibility to your fellow player above personal story progression, or else it is going to die -- and it's not going to be because of anything but people who refuse to reach out.

#StraightOutaAvernus wrote:

It's literally 'just' to interact with each-other. I keep hammering in this message, and I don't really know how to make it clearer. I despise Arelith, but everyone there readily understood/understands that their job is to assume the DMs will never do anything and create interest groups among one another, conflict with other interest groups, etc etc.

The DMs on Amia have made a concious move away from this by essentially making rather mundane things or basic 1 to 1 emulation require requests essentially on the logic that "A DM might want to make use of that" more or less.

I myself have for years now maintained a stance of non reliance on DMs, however the truth of that is that unless you seek out a DM or happen to be RPing something that a DM specifically wants to forward then your efforts are not equally rewarded.

DMs rather than facilitating RP through providing cossenquense and effect in response to player action instead just ask for any actual world effecting RP no matter how minor pass through them.

So basically RP with/to a DM or RP to little or no consequnce, these are your options.

Further the point of bringing up issues is that there are long standing ones that Amia has failed to address or fix, and sometimes it is these issues alone that has kept away former and what could once again easily be current players.

People who clearly are around and check and look in to see if anything has changed. I cannot place into words the insanity of badmouthing people for "not playing" without then asking why? You have people who care and are here and could easily spike Amia's player base back up and yet people seem more intent to just criticize them for not playing actively or playing on other servers rather than figuring out why that might be.

Maverick00053 wrote:

All of the DMs are DMing because we love this server just as much as you all if not more.

Also lets not even BEGIN to get into that argument especially when always not mentioning that DMs are quite fairly compensated with DCs and can retire anytime, nothing is forced on any of them.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

So basically RP with to DM or RP to little or no consequnce, these are your options.

we took over quite a bit of land. most of it was done with simple pc occupation. dm's pop in when needed but we mostly did it ourselves. im not talking about Nec'.

also some of the biggest clusterfucks in RP have been 100% player driven. from a murder mystery and fallout that lasted literally months, to one of the first things I ever did on the server which was turning into an ant and spying on a pc meeting and thwarting one of the biggest potential evil plots on amia. and that's just shit I did personally.

hell im the archmage of the delta school now because I taught a bunch of classes on spell schools and ethics and the only DM help I asked for was to get some undead models spawned for props for my lecture on undead. That was the entirety of DM intervention in any of my lectures and they were a blast. DM's arn't needed for meaningful RP. That's a myth and a toxic one at that.

So I simply deny that you need a dm for meaningful rp, that if you don't have a dm on call your RP has little consequence, because it is a very incorrect statement.

There is a difference in player action and DM recognition of player action, your examples all seem to involve the later however imaging a case where that exact circumstance of PCs occupying land occured only instead of recognising the actions of your group in game they instead recognised the actions of another group, perhaps more vocal to them or that the DM happened to like the sounds of more.

Suddenly when that group instead gets DM power working on their side because their actions are recognised your group is essentially forced out.

These are the situations I most often reffering to and one I know that players have left over, the feeling that by not pursuing a DM if another group is then it can often then come at their expense. And it is often not a case of purposeful DM abuse or wanting to favour individuals but that can be the effect or at least percieved effect at least to those who put in as much work in game to effect things for other players.

Also lets not even BEGIN to get into that argument especially when always not mentioning that DMs are quite fairly compensated with DCs and can retire anytime, nothing is force on any of them.[/quote]

Are you kidding? I can't tell if this is a joke or not? If you are playing for dream coins then you definitely will not be having a good time. If you think the DM's are doing any of this for Dream Coins...wow. Just wow. Dropping out of this one.

Its exactly how Amia has and always has paid DMs. The idea that DMs are unpaid is often stated falsely, they are paid perfectly fairly and further nothing prevents them fron being an active player.

The idea that you are giving up something to be a DM and so cant be criticized is a serious issue Amia has at times.

Futher retiring is nothing bad, frankly I wish the DM team had a FAR higher turnover rate, nothing stops former DMs being active players or DMs again and frankly it would solve a fair few issues just from the side of the "you dont know because you arent a DM" argument.Not to mention it would make people more invested.

Also really many of our scripters should have been offered DM spots, they along with guest story tellers really are all people who could have instead filled DM roles.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

Its exactly how Amia has and always has paid DMs. The idea that DMs are unpaid is often stated falsely, they are paid perfectly fairly and further nothing prevents them fron being an active player.

The idea that you are giving up something to be a DM and so cant be criticized is a serious issue Amia has at times.
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Futher retiring is nothing bad, frankly I wish the DM team had a FAR higher turnover rate, nothing stops former DMs being active players or DMs again and frankly it would solve a fair few issues just from the side of the "you dont know because you arent a DM" argument.Not to mention it would make people more invested.

Also really many of our scripters should have been offered DM spots, they along with guest story tellers really are all people who could have instead filled DM roles.

You give up time. You write, you set up scenarios, you moderate the server, you help moderate the forums, you consider requests, you assist players with questions or problem. My question, is why are you so hung up on dream coins? They don't really make the server, and its not like the players who have become DM's, past or present didn't already have a wealth of them. You are insinuating that the DM staff took position entirely based on greed and that is an unfounded malicious attack of character. I have RP'd with some of these people for years, and that offends even me. If you want dream coins, you won't get them grinding. You have to RP. Sometimes thats hard, when you make an introvert or something to that extent...and you know what...I hardly ever see the green wands come out unless a DM says something. Dream couns are a currency used to make special requests, and if amassing them is a huge concern for you, then you really aren't having fun. I appreciate your opinion, though consider that you are only stating problems, percieved or otherwise and offering no solutions. Try formulating your complaint in a constructive manner that won't be percieved as severe contempt.

DCs arent important. Making DMs out to be unable to be criticized because they are "unpaid" is the issue, it isnt some thankless job that they are Martyrs for accepting and failings in certain areas do not take away from good works in others but they should be open to criticism.

DMing also provides many advantages, especially in terms of anyone who appreciates writing, as you get to story craft and RP for the world things both major and minor beyond what a player ever can.

I have believed for quite some time that the easiest and most effective tool to begin to solve some of these issues is to address the server spread. By choosing a central server hub, by assigning multiple DMs to run events and plots there consistently, you will condense the player activity. I mean to the extend of having around five DMs each doing weekly to bi-weekly plots just in Cordor and the immediate surrounding land.

Cordor would be the logical choice. My expectation is that players will begin to get more involved in Cordor because of this. With having a place that is dense with player activity, it will be easier to find others to roleplay with. Which is also great in drawing new players in early. This will begin to generate roleplay between players and provide a place for factions to be able to thrive again. It might even begin to promote more player initiative to do small events themselves. There will be less assumption of favoritism, because DM attention wont be focused primarily on select groups in their respective hub. Instead DM attention is focused on a place that is accessible to most type of characters.

Having players be in more contact, and often sharing goals in events and plots, should also reduce the toxicity over time. When players have more opportunities to roleplay together with a common goal, it begins to feel more like a community again. Instead of cliques separated into areas, whose contact often consists primarily of conflict.

This is of course a very short and simplified summary of it. It is also only one of many aspects. But I think several of the issues are symptoms of a smaller playerbase, spread across a multitude of hubs, consisting of often times conflicting groups, vying for DM attention in order to substain themselves or being able to interact with the world. It would be a good place to start. DM attention is just a lot more important when you have less players to interact with. And I do not think there is a great harm in the DMs saying they will commit to this for a period of six months to see how it goes.

If there is real progress and the community responds well to it, I am sure there are a lot of additional steps one can take to help build on the first bit of progress. DMs can also do a little less there once players begin to pick up the slack.

Short time quests / adventures / plots works for me more than long time. Mostly due to the unattractive time zone and the fact that I'm a very casual player.

For instance, the troll invasion two days ago (Lutra - driven?) was fa-bu-lous. It was short, straight forward, and yet entertaining. It makes the server feel alive.

Long time plots for real deal, short time for laughs and giggles.

Pony's idea sounds like a fine one in my own opinion for addressing some of the mentioned issues.

Cordor's current state of once more seeming to be "The city of tolerance" in regards to races being allowed in at the very least makes it a good central location. Further I would suggest utillizing DM events which might include evil NPCs to draw in potential outside groups of neutral or evil PCs as they can often get locked out by not being on the "PC" side due simply to alignment.

Centralizing and bringing groups together with some intersecting plots could work well but can't just be done while ignoring those ussually outside those areas, rather it must be done in a way to draw groups with their conflicting views, wants and goals into contact with eachother in ways that both encourage opposition and cooperation with each other in whatever ways.

Also in terms of long vs short term. Both is best, small events can be stand alone in scope and yet part of larger things even without intent. The key is that nothing should just occur, small things should effect big ones DM events should effect each other, and everything should have cause and effect even (especially) if not what was intended.

First of all, I did not expect some of the replies. What I mean is that to sound so aggressive, perhaps unintented at times, but it does create a certain atmopshere when having a simple conversation about matters. And to be honest, some comments are clearly disrespectful and usually by the opposing party. Please, you might not agree with a point, but you do not need to disrespect the people involved. I am not any better in that regard as seen before in this thread, but we can try to be better in future. And while, I did mention specifically DM team, I did that because I had not seen much comment there.

I would not say it is the additional mechanical "Things" we need. In past we have had less and more players anyway. I do believe that the way of handling things from more restrictive point of view is the issue. An environment that is heavily influenced by those running it. It is true that I do want to get off easier, meaning I do not want to log in Amia to feel like I am doing a second job. It is supposed to be fun and not get told: Do your OOC research in manuals first and then come back. Certainly, if you do want to be more influencial, more work is needed, but when such atmosphere of specific view is about.. I do not know if I want to be part of that. Coming online to feel like I need to give 110 % after a day of work to just roleplay.

Forum rules prevent people from going to specifics in public with other people. Regardless, I have done some work and gotten few "perks" which were more RP related than "mechanical things", they were also made available in public just due to that. It is IC and IG, possibility to create more interaction in between for those who go after the information. While I can't complain there personally much, it is a point I have heard spoken. Thus simply brought it to the table. However, at the same time, I have seen perks that were not allowed to general public but were allowed on one individual in different cases. It does bring in a question as to why. And I do wonder also, what is playing actively to someone. I personally feel myself as an active player by logging just once a week. For others, being active might be several times a week. This is my problem here, to be an "active player" you must be here this and that many times. Why? Is it not enough if they log in once a month if they feel like that is the contribution they want to place in?

In short, I do think it is mainly the culture of the forums and IG Amia has that is the problem. Culture of direspecting others, disregarding them and exclusivity (While understansable at times, it is a part of a problem how I think it.) Is this something we could start to work on? At the moment, I will admit that seeing certain comments in here, I do not feel like wanting to approach them IG or IC if they are so disrespectful. So might others feel of me perhaps.

I do love to have seen TheGuy to having finding the silverlining in this discussion. Good that you did and I hope you did not get discouraged.

EDIT: Oh and access to event happening information would be nice. Can't be done everywhere, but perhaps in some just an OOC point that something is going down so peopel don't need to stand around 4 hours hoping something would. Because some people do enjoy attending events simply.

Quote:

Maverick00053 wrote:

All of the DMs are DMing because we love this server just as much as you all if not more.

Also lets not even BEGIN to get into that argument especially when always not mentioning that DMs are quite fairly compensated with DCs and can retire anytime, nothing is forced on any of them.

What argument?

This is part of the toxicity I am taking about. You instantly assumed I was saying that DMs deserve to be exempt from issues because of all the work they do. No. I was simply providing some evidence from the other side. DMing has its perks but overall it is a thankless job. While yes it is volunteer position, that doesn't mean it isn't a lot of work or difficult.

Every active DM loves this server. I don't see why that is a point of hostility. If anything that means we are more than willing to take note of your complaints for the sake of the server.

Is it just me? Or... is Amia really quiet lately?

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