AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Last edited by Commie on Sun, Apr 23 2017, 15:45 PM, edited 14 times in total.

Current amia balance, this is a mostly pve spread with some pvp thoughts. Note that this assumes the builds are done like, 'correctly' and is just like, my opinion man.

Placement within tiers doesn't matter unless it's noted as mattering (ie says high B or A+)

S-Tier No measurable weaknesses.

Dragon disciple fighter (18/10/2) (S-)

A-Tier Rock solid, can do anything with only one button of prep, or is so cracked out when full tilt (and stays full tilt for a long time) that the buff time isn't such an issue.

Epic dodge virtually anything except heavy monk or heavy SD (A+)
Pure bard (with the right feats, low A) or 25/5 (high A)
19 weapon master strength build
Massive strength no dev crit MS WM
Full 29 or 28 caster with tumble (cleric/wiz/sorc interchangeable but has a casting focus)
SD 6/caster 21+
Monk, 1 sorc (low cha), Rest AA (So like 11/1/18 or 12/1/17) with tumble (S- with Drow)

B-Tier Can do anything, might need to plan a little more or spend a little more money to be properly buffed as they are hurt more when unbuffed, which is their defining difference setting them behind A tier.

Standard strength WM (12/2/16) (B+)
Heavy strength paladin (B+)
Non dragon full druid
General full barbarian
High ab melee pale master (more specific builds move this up or down)
Strength assassin
6 SD high bab
Bane of enemies ranger
General (non specific) Shifter (too many specific builds to list all of them)
Cha blackguard
Epic dodge monk (B-)

C-Tier Has trouble with some content or relies on feats/features available to other tiers

Heavy monk no epic dodge
Full melee RDD PM
Heavy DwD
Dragon shape druid (B+ with mummy dust, low B without, C with EDK, and B+ with cleric 1 and haven)
Heavy rogue
Melee low wisdom clerics ("I started with 18 strength!" cleric, D tier with no mummy dust or dragon knight)
Wisdom blackguard
Dedicated 2 handed builds
Non AA non ranger archer
Any pure fighter

D-Tier Has trouble or serious glaring weaknesses
Caster pale master
Heavy shadow-dancer
Caster RDD.

Notes; Picking a race that's subject to banish knocks you down a tier unless your build has 35 to will save vs spells while naked.

AND REMEMBER, THIS IS JUST LIKE, MY OPINION MAN.

~~~~

Oh also some race decisions can really muddle where you are in the tier list. Things like Drow can't just have a blanket 'move up move down' like planetouched races can, but a drow X can suddenly shoot up as many as two tiers because of it.

Take for example the monk AA build, while you can be dispelled because you will always have at least 10 charisma, you gain a tremendous amount of 'free' SR, but only lose a bit of to-hit. So your AC is still higher then a plate-user with tumble, your AB is one less (who cares), you have a few less HP, but it doesn't matter. You're still faster then any non pure-monk and your only real build weakness (because all those monk levels and your stat spread gives you crazy good saves) was specific spells, which are almost all subject to spell resistance.

I would argue that 19 WM and 16 WM should be swapped (or at least 16 WM should be in the A tier) because you gain a measly 1 AB in exchange from Evasion and +4 damage when you take 19 WM. They are functionally no different than that, and my STR 16 WM without Dev Crit is able to take on most places as it is (with Dev Crit he would be the usual power house, though he actually has as much AB as the 19 WM does regardless). You need just as many spells on a 19 WM as you do on a 16 WM.

Heavy Paladin is also A tier, because of how much AC/AB/saves/damage they get. Even against a neutral person they are beastly when built right.

Pure bard is B at best, because 25/anything is far better (especially 25/KC).

Not sure if 18 RDD would qualify as A tier, because on dispel and their buffs are toast. Without Imp Invis you are hurting majorly, especially since there is no Dev Crit to 'save' you. I mean, if I see wings on someone and PvP is going to happen, they are getting dispelled.

Just my two cents off the top of my tired head!

You can get evasion on items so it's not worth the class level. That's why nineteen is higher. Also anything in b tier can take on anything and expect to win.

Pally isn't A tier due to alignment issues disabling their best class features and sometimes disabling many epic feats. Anything that has a situation where they get turned off so hard can't be higher and amia has 0 consistency both player and monster side; There are beetles flagged as animals and snakes flagged as vermin for example, and pally depends on stuff being tagged properly, which you have literally no way to know until you smite and fail, and without that you're just a guy with good ac, high saves, but no class features, a barbarian without the ability to rage.

Bard is A I forgot to include it when I posted.

Rdd is not toast without buffs because they still hit sixty ac before expertise and have fifty strength and fifty ab without buffs. It's gonna kill you. Invis or not. It's less buff dependant then other builds, and due to some of the bonus's the class gets you can afford to sit in plus twelve con and str gear, you have the slots.

That's also why MS/WM is so good, you can equip that plus six strength belt, that's a hell of a lot of value when it comes to mythal slots.

True, however it saves you a slot on your gear which is pretty valuable; still more valuable than 19 WM, mechanically speaking (unless I am missing something).

If you think a Pally vs a non-evil enemy is just a barbarian without rage, you should really look at Pally again. Almost nothing can match what a well built Pally can do. Clerics come close, because divine spells, but yeah a well built and played Pally can decimate a lot of the things out there.

I actually forgot about the recent RDD changes, failed to factor that in. My bad, haha.

I also am thinking in different terms of tiers, my mind keeps defaulting back to what is better mechanically. Like 30 bard vs 25/5 KC; mechanically it is silly to not pick the latter and 30 bard immediately is B tier. But yeah, I get what you are meaning in all this.

Naivatkal wrote:

True, however it saves you a slot on your gear which is pretty valuable; still more valuable than 19 WM, mechanically speaking (unless I am missing something).

If you think a Pally vs a non-evil enemy is just a barbarian without rage, you should really look at Pally again. Almost nothing can match what a well built Pally can do. Clerics come close, because divine spells, but yeah a well built and played Pally can decimate a lot of the things out there.

I actually forgot about the recent RDD changes, failed to factor that in. My bad, haha.

I also am thinking in different terms of tiers, my mind keeps defaulting back to what is better mechanically. Like 30 bard vs 25/5 KC; mechanically it is silly to not pick the latter and 30 bard immediately is B tier. But yeah, I get what you are meaning in all this.

Pure bard with a battle tide item and properly geared is terrifying. The ac swing is huge. It's worse then the kc version but bard alone is stellar and you have high CL. About the biggest issue is the gimmick where you can skill a specific way and just be immune to curse song.

Also one ab in 19 wm is definitely worth one mythal slot for evasion and greater weapon specialization. Particularly when you factor in the ab you get vs common amia ac's. It changes a lot of fights from hit on a twenty to hit on a nineteen or twenty or better. Which considering how long fights go, means you are a lot more likely to hit and even more to crit.

Commie wrote:

D-Tier (Has trouble or serious glaring weaknesses)

Heavy shadow-dancer

Yeah, sorry, low ab, but it does have epic dodge.... still no sneak attack progression, no bonus to hide or ms compared to 6/10 SD, low damage when you do hit, all you get is a pet that's pretty good, but gets negated by a bubbily, and is out for less time then a mummy dust and isn't even arguably as good.

Commie wrote:

Yeah, sorry, low ab, but it does have epic dodge.... still no sneak attack progression, no bonus to hide or ms compared to 6/10 SD, low damage when you do hit, all you get is a pet that's pretty good, but gets negated by a bubbily, and is out for less time then a mummy dust and isn't even arguably as good.

I wasn't disagreeing.

Kamina wrote:

Commie wrote:

Yeah, sorry, low ab, but it does have epic dodge.... still no sneak attack progression, no bonus to hide or ms compared to 6/10 SD, low damage when you do hit, all you get is a pet that's pretty good, but gets negated by a bubbily, and is out for less time then a mummy dust and isn't even arguably as good.

I wasn't disagreeing.

ah ok.

Modified after some recent fights/build/gear changes changed my view.

warlock still not on the table. not seen enough of it.

Been getting asked about the rdd change; apparently the script that updates your stats for rdd mental attributes isn't making you subject to dispelling, so low cha rdd is as dispel immune as everyone without caster levels, effectively killing the builds one weakness.

Renamed s tier to more accurately represent what s tier is.

I hate that the joke gimmick build I did in 2010 is now the fad of the month build and that it's braindead easy to make a better version of my build with 0 effort, get 4 more STR and have dev, but have just 30 less HP, or the same HP if you trade 2 STR.

Bumped strength paladin to b+ because I believe the difference between 'on' and 'off' is pretty huge, as well as losing the ability to do some class features seemingly at random, and that keeps them out of A.

Changed wording of tier descriptions.

Can we get a Commie's PvM Build tier list?

No. As PvM is too easy. Consider anything 'C tier' and up 'A tier' for PvM, properly played and geared. DM events aren't counted as the difficulty swings too wildly.

Additionally, NWN isn't like MMO's, PvP builds are also dominating in PvM here. There is no trade-off by being a 'PvP' build.

edit; A well buffed mummy dust can solo every plus five boss save one boss specifically. If a summon can do it, a player can too.

Commie wrote:

Been getting asked about the rdd change; apparently the script that updates your stats for rdd mental attributes isn't making you subject to dispelling, so low cha rdd is as dispel immune as everyone without caster levels, effectively killing the builds one weakness.

Could you explain this script? I have heard of it in passing from other players, but I haven't been able to find any definitive documentation explaining it on the forums.

Last edited by Dergaii on Mon, Feb 06 2017, 19:09 PM, edited 1 time in total.

See below

Its not so much a script, but an engine bug.

Heres the basics -
Your CASTER LEVEL is determined by your highest CASTER CLASS.
A CASTER CLASS is only counted if it has a POSITIVE/NON-NEGATIVE attribute stat. (IE Wizards use INT. Sorcerers use CHA)
If you do not possess any applicable CASTER CLASS your CASTER LEVEL is determined by your Character Level.

Examples
30 Fighter = 30 Caster Level (Character level)
29 Wizard/1 Fighter = 29 Caster Levels
29 Wizard/1 Cleric with 12INT and 30 Wis = 29 Caster Levels
29 Wizard/1 Fighter with 8 INT = 30 Caster levels (Character level)

This bug is incredibly important to note in certain builds. Mainly those that require Bard or Wiz/Sorc for prestige classes. By having a Negative attribute caster score you can prevent the game from recognizing your Caster class levels in regards to dispelling.

When you use a spell from an item such as a Bull Strengths potion its Caster Level is determined by the item itself. A Bull's Strength (3) is counted as a caster level 3 spell. Meaning in this case it would last 3 hours. HOWEVER. If someone were to attempt to dispel you, they would have to roll against your CASTER LEVEL not the innate level of the spell (3 in this case).

The actual bug commie is referring to is a bit different, if I understand correctly.

lilmarcat described the basics for every build. But, the weird thing is when the abilities from RDD come in. You get bonuses in CHA, which would/might get your stat above 10. Apparently, this does NOT put your CL to Bard (or Sorc, but nobody in their right mind goes sorc/RDD) levels, as long as your bonuses were below 10 before the CHA buff.

(If it's OP, it will be fixed, otherwise, we should not have things like this be only good for one group of people. Just like the OP-ness that was the faerie dragon for its one niche, you can find that out. I'd rather everyone can abuse that thing, than only people commie has told. The original "problem" lilmarcat has described, also always was a staple in Amia building, at least as far as I can tell, since it is mentioned consistently in the build topic)

The dispel bug was actually fixed at one point, but people complained about dispels working in fire giants, so it was unfixed...

*wince*

Anal Builder's Annotated critiques: My annotations will be in yellow

Commie wrote:

S-Tier No measurable weaknesses. "no"

Epic-Dodge weapon master with sneak attack (13/10/7) W I L L S A V E
Dragon disciple fighter (18/10/2) (S-) No measurable weaknesses but you're better off taking barbarian. Good but not great since it's "Good" at everything but "great" at nothing.

Commie wrote:

A-Tier Rock solid, can do anything with only one button of prep, or is so cracked out when full tilt (and stays full tilt for a long time) that the buff time isn't such an issue.

Epic dodge anything else but heavy monk or heavy SD (A+) Monk/SD is like an S+ you heathen
Pure bard (with the right feats, low A) or 25/5 (high A) Lacks offensive qualities, great buffer though.
19 weapon master strength build
Massive strength no dev crit MS WM
Full 29 or 28 caster with tumble (cleric/wiz/sorc interchangeable but has a casting focus) 29 anything is beta, nothing past 27+ has any justification since that's where gate stops improving, and other classes can net you better feats
Dragon shape druid (A+ with mummy dust, low A without, A+ with cleric 1 and haven) Were it not for the difficulty this build has getting through doors and areas with cramped space I'd rate this S
SD 6/caster 21+
Monk, 1 sorc (low cha), Rest AA (So like 11/1/18 or 12/1/17) with tumble (S- with Drow) The more common varient is to go wizard but honestly if I rate SD/Monk as S+ I rate this as S++

Commie wrote:

B-Tier Can do anything, might need to plan a little more or spend a little more money to be properly buffed as they are hurt more when unbuffed, which is their defining difference setting them behind A tier.

Standard strength WM (12/2/16) (B+)
Heavy strength paladin (B+) I don't disagree so much as I consider this my case for "why you should buff blackguard" and just wanted to get political about it
Non dragon full druid What does "full" mean in this context? Focused or 30?
General full barbarian See above
Strength assassin Anything with under 46 AB and lacking epic dodge is kind of unplayable in my opinion since you don't necessarily have the killing power to make up for your lack of AC, but that's just me.
6 SD high bab
Bane of enemies ranger Not necessarily GREAT but the most satisfying thing ever
General (non specific) Shifter (too many specific builds to list all of them)
Cha blackguard I'd rate this C- at best considering my experience. Also when I say "cha blackguard" I really mean "18 cha" personally but I'm wondering how much charisma you mean. I'd consider STR BGs a C in my book.
Epic dodge monk (B-)

Commie wrote:

C-Tier Has trouble with some content or relies on feats/features available to other tiers

Heavy monk no epic dodge
Full melee RDD PM
Heavy DwD
Heavy rogue
Melee low wisdom clerics ("I started with 18 strength!" cleric, D tier with no mummy dust or dragon knight)
Wisdom blackguard
Dedicated 2 handed builds
Non AA non ranger archer
Any pure fighter

Commie wrote:

D-Tier Has trouble or serious glaring weaknesses
Caster pale master 19 Pale Masters with some fashion of spell resistance to avoid item spam are basically unkillable if they can counterspell and run away and while everyone gears fort a DC 45 save or die is nothing to sneeze at. If you're talking pve, the caster PM can kill almost any boss.
Heavy shadow-dancer
Caster RDD.

Commie wrote:

Notes; Picking a race that's subject to banish knocks you down a tier unless your build has 35 to will save vs spells while naked. Complete agreement here

I may make my own list and see how it goes.

Last edited by Commie on Tue, Feb 07 2017, 16:22 PM, edited 2 times in total.

Ok point by point

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Epic-Dodge weapon master with sneak attack (13/10/7) W I L L S A V E

Mitigated with mind blank. Can be nullified by gearing properly.

Quote:

Dragon disciple fighter (18/10/2) (S-) No measurable weaknesses but you're better off taking barbarian. Good but not great since it's "Good" at everything but "great" at nothing.

100% wrong. You have the stats of non-epic rage all the time and goodies like immunities, free SR, higher AB, flight, and much higher ac (higher then defensive rage iirc at level 30). The only thing a barb has over the buffed RDD is terrifying rage, which the pvp community has basically taken a gentlemens agreement to not use, as a DC80 fear aura is literally bullshit as it's a save vs a skill and if they know what they are doing can make you make that save 5+ times a round, and I actually don't know why it isn't fixed yet.

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Epic dodge anything else but heavy monk or heavy SD (A+) Monk/SD is like an S+ you heathen

Nothing you can just walk away from because it does next to no damage and has a low 40 AB can possibly be S. If you gear right it has to roll a 20 to hit you, when it hits you it's going to do sub 30 average damage (16.5 from the d20 +6 fist, +1 or 2 or 3 from str, some more from flame weapon or energy on the weapon?), and if you run away or just stay mobile it's not going to be able to use its biggest advantages (multiple attacks a round) against you while you either get to cast OR do like whatever. It still flat out dies to a lot of spells (iron horn still has no SR and you can cast it 2x a round via potions) and can't do shit about it. And if you gear spot then IT has to run away. It's trash; the build is basically good at spying because it runs fast and can hips. But even that you're better off with hips shifter, so even if they catch you they don't know who you are w/o metagaming.

Quote:

Pure bard (with the right feats, low A) or 25/5 (high A) Lacks offensive qualities, great buffer though.

No, it doesn't. Curse song and bard song is a massive AB swing, magnified with the use of battle-tide, meaning it's raw to-hit vs its enemies can be as high as a perfect weapon master when it gets going. Not to mention it can just cast iron horn and mass haste.

Quote:

Full 29 or 28 caster with tumble (cleric/wiz/sorc interchangeable but has a casting focus) 29 anything is beta, nothing past 27+ has any justification since that's where gate stops improving, and other classes can net you better feats

Uh ok, if your argument here is over one CL then hey, nitpick away.EDIT; You get epic bonus feats at 29 as wiz/cleric and 28 as druid. That's why, that's an epic spell focus (matters a lot now) or another epic spell (always mattered).

Quote:

Dragon shape druid (A+ with mummy dust, low A without, A+ with cleric 1 and haven) Were it not for the difficulty this build has getting through doors and areas with cramped space I'd rate this S

Yeah that's why it's not S, that and prep time as being caught unaware fucks you over more then any of the builds above it in the list.

Quote:

Monk, 1 sorc (low cha), Rest AA (So like 11/1/18 or 12/1/17) with tumble (S- with Drow) The more common varient is to go wizard but honestly if I rate SD/Monk as S+ I rate this as S++

You can afford 8 cha so you arn't subject to the dispel bug. Most builds can't swing 8 int to be dispel 'immune.'

Quote:

Non dragon full druid What does "full" mean in this context? Focused or 30?

28+

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Strength assassin Anything with under 46 AB and lacking epic dodge is kind of unplayable in my opinion since you don't necessarily have the killing power to make up for your lack of AC, but that's just me.

Assassin has extra ways to get you on your ass, not to mention iron horn pots, and if you fall down in front of a 19 assassin that geared for str you are absolutely dead before the iron horn wears off. Not to mention kneecapper. The 'sneak attack' damage this build pulls is absurd, and the relative ease they can get those knockdowns/stuns/whatever compared to other classes makes it actually really good. Being able to UMD to breach off mind-blank then use a stun attack is crippling.

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Cha blackguard I'd rate this C- at best considering my experience. Also when I say "cha blackguard" I really mean "18 cha" personally but I'm wondering how much charisma you mean. I'd consider STR BGs a C in my book.

Uh, ok. I mean enough to max out your might/shield and max out that dodge AC.

Quote:

Caster pale master 19 Pale Masters with some fashion of spell resistance to avoid item spam are basically unkillable if they can counterspell and run away and while everyone gears fort a DC 45 save or die is nothing to sneeze at. If you're talking pve, the caster PM can kill almost any boss.

Uh, people gear for +43 fort to live vs dev crit and throw spellcraft on top of it and yeah, you ignore it 95% of the time. They also just die because they still have a very low HP pool. Caster PM can kill any boss because it has mummy dust, and anyone with mummy dust can kill all the bosses. My 21 cleric can solo everything but Rabka the bound and Windy with it, only don't know about Windy because I can't solo my way there yet.

edited twice, once for why 27 cl is dumb, again to add yellow to bob's comments to distinguish them from my own.

Oh yeah that's why you go 29/28 caster over 27. Clerics and wizards get a bonus feat at 29 and druids at 28.

So you're just losing an epic bonus feat for what, rogue 2 evasion??? A fighter feat?

Commie wrote:

Oh yeah that's why you go 29/28 caster over 27. Clerics and wizards get a bonus feat at 29 and druids at 28.

So you're just losing an epic bonus feat for what, rogue 2 evasion??? A fighter feat?

If I'm taking wizard 27 I can use three levels to get three bonus feats of exceptional value. I'll write a full response later but I love talking crunch.

Stacking a level of ranger for the epic spell focus is a tactic employed by ECL races that need it due to having to sink a level of rogue/bard for tumble/umd, which denies them an epic feat.

you really don't need tumble considering you can hit 60 while cross classing it on a wizard or cleric without much effort, and you don't need umd at all as a 29 caster you can get, somehow or some way, every spell on some kind of item. divine wands of invis or cloaks of sanctuary or orbs/dust of imp invis or hunters sense or whatever. UMD is over-rated, it's just nice to snag if your build has it as an option.

I frankly don't think ac past 60 is all that valuable compared to getting 'to' sixty, but 29 cleric or 29 wizard can cross class tumble and still exceed 60. After 60 you really hit the point where very little is going to be realistically hitting you aside from the first attack, and in those cases 3 ac really only manages to hinder the first attack. You get yourself out of range of most of the 3/4th bab classes, and full bab ab's, in most cases, top out around 46ish. so it's just really not worth perusing imo.

It depends on how you build your character. The initial int. Sink you would need to max cross class tumble on a cleric is substantial. Unlike wizard, who get an unlimited font of skill points, clerics get 3, plus the int mod. So. With a positive int mod to get two extra skill points, to even hope to do this, you would ultimately effect your DC's or..your str, con or cha.Depending on what you are doing, this is huge.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Commie wrote:

Oh yeah that's why you go 29/28 caster over 27. Clerics and wizards get a bonus feat at 29 and druids at 28.

So you're just losing an epic bonus feat for what, rogue 2 evasion??? A fighter feat?

If I'm taking wizard 27 I can use three levels to get three bonus feats of exceptional value. I'll write a full response later but I love talking crunch.

bumping after a week in the hopes of seeing what this is

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Commie wrote:

Oh yeah that's why you go 29/28 caster over 27. Clerics and wizards get a bonus feat at 29 and druids at 28.

So you're just losing an epic bonus feat for what, rogue 2 evasion??? A fighter feat?

If I'm taking wizard 27 I can use three levels to get three bonus feats of exceptional value. I'll write a full response later but I love talking crunch.

hey it's been almost 20 days can you full respond with what those exceptional value feats are?

Let's keep this thread civil please. You are welcome to freely discuss builds, but do not antagonize each other needlessly.

I'm not trying to antagonize I just don't know what the feats could be and Bob said he'd post them and likes talking crunch.

-Added melee pale master.

It's hard to place given how general the build description is but it's really just 10 pm then as much ab as you can get. I think it's b+ at best and way worse at worst. Make sure you take full bab pre epic and pm in epic though.

Last edited by TormakSaber on Sun, Feb 26 2017, 4:50 AM, edited 1 time in total.

How do you feel on 16 fighter 4 caster 10 PM versus 10 fighter 4 caster 16 PM for the Epic Mage Armor and gear freedom?

ed: fixed number

TormakSaber wrote:

How do you feel on 16 fighter 4 caster 20 PM versus 10 fighter 4 caster 16 PM for the Epic Mage Armor and gear freedom?

I don't like the mage armor variant. You're basically dog-food w/o it up and not going that route makes you buff-independent, which is nice.

You can do it, there are arguments for both, I don't think one or the other is actually better, I just like buff-freedom on melee. It's a personal opinion.

But EMA and tons o regen when you're crit immune is slick.

why isnt sorcerer 27 rogue 2 1 ranger S Tier? that was my sorcerers build I used to run back when I played and my group took on a good 20+ people at a time with just 3 mostly with my sorcerer just killing everyone while the weaponmaster of the group running protection duty and our sd taking out the other mages.

Because there have been a vast number of changes since you played.

Any time something like 3 vs 20 happens with the 3 winning, that's player skill, not build skill, in 95% of situations.

ILoveIceCream wrote:

why isnt sorcerer 27 rogue 2 1 ranger S Tier? that was my sorcerers build I used to run back when I played and my group took on a good 20+ people at a time with just 3 mostly with my sorcerer just killing everyone while the weaponmaster of the group running protection duty and our sd taking out the other mages.

It is.

Quote:

Full 29 or 28 caster with tumble (cleric/wiz/sorc interchangeable but has a casting focus)

I'm not giving 27 vs 28 cl a separate entry.

^

While the build itself counts for a lot, player skill will ultimately determine the success of it. a player that knows his build inside and out and how to use it in every situation, will most likely win against a better build on a less experienced player. I've seen plenty of shit builds take on and down far stronger builds, simply because the player knew how to capitalize on his strength and catch them by surprise.

also being around during a time when you could hurt people during timestop, unchanged vanilla GSanc, uncapped IGMS, and unreduced CC makes a big difference too.

Member Timestop scrolls? I Member

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Dragon shape druid (A+ with mummy dust, low A without, A+ with cleric 1 and haven)

Just an FYI, cleric spells added via spell slot gear retain their spell slots when you shift, so if you slot like 15 cleric spell slots onto your gear with your one cleric level you can use them just fine.

Keep in mind this build, you will be expected to (at least by me!) adhere strictly to your deities code as you're a 'double divine' character.

updated. 13/10/7 moved off the S+ list as evasion spells are less of a thing now as more spells have un-evasionable damage, AC's are higher across the board in the high tiers, and their AB isn't as high as other WM builds, so the higher across-the-board AC means they crit less.

atm the only S builds are Monk/Sorc/AA as a Drow, and 18/10/2 RDD. These classes can kill pretty much anything at any moment with no warning, and hit 60+ ac with very high saves.

Dragon druid dropped down to C.

After the recent realization that many amia +5 bosses just have +20 ac against the form (my animal companion hits on a 56 but I miss on a 75) combined with the already annoying issue where ankle high rocks block your path in these dungeons, doors and other transitions just being problematic, as well as simply being able to run away from the form in pvp, really hurt its status. Not to mention some of these bosses open with big damage nukes (your buddies don't all have evasion) and a greater ruin killing it instantly, so there's a good chance the only thing you have that's going to do damage to the boss might just outright die with nothing you can do as soon as the fight begins; the build simply can't exist in A tier as I defined it.

Considering how many resources they have to go through to fight bosses they can only hit on a 20 (6 or 7 heal pots + invis wands in my testing vs several of these bosses over the past few days @64 ac) knocks them down to C tier and highlights the point that builds need to be practically tested against amia to avoid improper placement due to secret balance 'traps.' In this case, random +20 ac versus you specifically.

C tier reads;

Quote:

Has trouble with some content or relies on feats/features available to other tiers

If you can only do content because your animal companion has to solo it while you're just a warm body, you can't be in A tier. A regular druid could do it better, and have epic spell foci and epic spells to back it up. EDK versions of the build are now lower due to even less ability to combat those bosses.

That is the saltiest dog of a post I've ever read, LMAO. From S+ to C because you can't bossfarm. Give me a break, dude.

Look at the definition of the tiers;

Quote:

S: No measurable weaknesses.

A; Rock solid, can do anything with only one button of prep, or is so cracked out when full tilt (and stays full tilt for a long time) that the buff time isn't such an issue.

B; Can do anything, might need to plan a little more or spend a little more money to be properly buffed as they are hurt more when unbuffed, which is their defining difference setting them behind A tier.

C; Has trouble with some content or relies on feats/features available to other tiers

If it can't do some bosses, and those it does do it needs to rely on features available to other classes, then it's C tier by my definition. I don't think something can be A tier when it can't do some content without being utterly dependent on a class feature available to two other classes, because that's what makes C tier C.

Pure bard as A+. I'm guessing you mean an STR based bard with weapon focuses?

Lutra wrote:

Pure bard as A+. I'm guessing you mean an STR based bard with weapon focuses?

Yeah I have 25/5 bard as A+/high A, I franky think the benefit of five kc or MS just outweighs the last five bard levels, Moreso when you consider how much you give up to hit the required preform of thirty bard. It's still good as heck though, I just consider the 25/5 slightly better.

Well...I get the part with KC but KC is a BAB class, it gives fluffs for the bards in general with the auras. But with MS? That is just a feat tight as a pure bard would be with perform demands and MS is not a full BAB class. Granted, the toys that it can make sometimes help you but otherwise it is not necessarily something that can contribute much. 4 fighter or a few rogue level would do same magic, no?

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