Jail turned from a way for guards to interact with criminal PCs, and keep both parties entertained rather than segregated after the resolution of conflict RP, and instead became, as stated by players in this topic, "I don't want to deal with you, and now you expect me to sit in a jail cell and RP with you?"

He's right though. In my time back, and especially as a DM, culture towards banning has changed. I know the DMs are aware of this, because it was the subject of several group skype conversations, and it was agreed that the current system of ban waves as per mid-late 2015 and going onwards, was not well backed and unsustainable. DM silence here doesn't change those conversations we had and the agreements we had, or the fact that nothing was done because at the time, while the DM team had about 16 people, only 5 ever logged in on a regular basis, and so they were carrying the weight of a team 3x their size and choking under the red tape of a supposedly democratic system that came down to "things only got done when you decided to ignore everyone else who wasn't doing therr job."

As a DM, I had to overturn bans that were being handed out for things as simple as "I don't like the way you talked to me today." These were bans added to a permanent exile list, with no time, date, or reason, and sometimes with no notification to the PC or player IC or OOC. These bans came from multiple locations around the server, and contesting them was pointless because they were ignored or shrugged off not just IC but also OOC. The ban system has come down to a point where, self admitted by several players in this topic, it's nothing more than a way for people to get rid of PCs and players they don't like, so they don't need to "deal with you." There's no recourse to have a conversation, speak, or anything, it's about hiding behind giant walls where it's metagaming if anyone bothers to show their face.

Ironically, this is why the two-wall system Bendir currently has, and the current rule of "doesn't apply outside the inner walls" is great, and why the previous system before was great. The city is in an area surrounded by non-city territory, which means characters have a means to not only go around the city if they need to, but also have a way to interact with players, giving both characters oriented towards driving server conflict an avenue of roleplay, and characters oriented towards fighting and defending that conflcit, and avenue of roleplay to defend and protect. It also allows socialite characters an opportunity to meet with all sorts of characters in a relatively safe environment: While conflcit can break out, the presence of so many different characters means its likely your PC will find backup, or can hide within the city if need be.


Bans from cities should, with the exception of Kohlingen due to how that city even works and exists (crusader city of paladins that actively works to extend its influence religiously and militarily), be restricted to dealing with that city specifically. The DMs agreed with this assessment in previous conversations, but nothing was ever done about it - it sort of got shelved like a lot of conversations did because... well, I don't really have a good reason or defense, things just did. Bans from entire cities should not be able to happen because of something something hearsay, or because "I don't like you."



As a DM, I can tell you straight up people were simply ignored, and often on OOC grounds. Stalling occurred for weeks, months, before players gave up because they could "take the hint". You can't RP your way back in when your ban was on OOC grounds just to get rid of you so they don't need to "deal with you anymore." At that point it's OOC playstyles clashing, again, as admitted by several players in this topic. They're bored with you, so they're exercising their authority to get rid of you IC, using an IC ignorator to not have to see any of your content or any of your posts anymore. You no longer exist in their section of the server and can't, because it's metagaming if they try to, and with only 5 busy DMs, trying to track down a DM to do RP based on that area is a crapshoot, on top of a laundry list of other issues. It becomes known that it's not worth the time, so people quit, or worse, roll a new character that's not going to get banned.

That's not good, not healthy for the server. What the vastly popular, vastly widespread player personalities in this topic are missing is that you are all essentially a hivemind now. All you need to do is roll a character and every other player who likes you is inclined to act positively towards you. This is a trend that is super easy t spot,, and again, one that I know is noted by the DM team due to regular conversations on the subject. Note that I didn't say "RP becoming friends with your PC." I said "react positively" to you. Those are very different things - one is motivated by IC, one is motivated by OOC. I saw how all of you interacted as a DM, and now I see how all of you act as players, when that influence is no longer there. Ladies and gentlemen: It is night and day.

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

He's right though. In my time back, and especially as a DM, culture towards banning has changed.

i will not tolerate this behavior Tormak. And I will make this utterly clear that I do not accept ANY support of this behavior from ANYONE, no matter who they are. One more reference to this and this thread is going to get locked. This kind of stuff is why our serverculture is so incredibly bad.

Furthermore, why should they spell it out for you IC? If they don't like you IC and feel that you are deserving of such a ban, they can be jerks (or just uncaring of your feelings) IC without people jumping on the players OOC because they think they're also being jerks.

There needs to be a line drawn some where down the line. There need to be ways people can get a break from having uncouth shoved in their faces. Maybe people aren't interested in playing with that type of evil? You may sit on the out side and wonder why? It's not because people don't want to be challenged. It's be cause they don't enjoy the particular style you are bringing to the table or feel like they've been there done that and that there's nothing particularly new or interesting being brought forth.

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

Some of those problems I specifically answered to and you actually just went in a circle with your responses. All the items in your list are not factually a problem in every situation, hence I do not think the playerbase as a whole agrees with you. I certainly don't. Until you start to attempt to compromise your own side, this conversation seems fruitless. I am willing to agree to temporary bans before permanent bans and making sure there is more oversight with how people are alerted to bans.

Otherwise, no. Sorry, Commie.

Also, Tormak, get a hold of yourself. You're better than that.

Now, city bans, should of course not be willy nilly like "guard X doesn't like your nose". Ideally city bans should also be reviewed by a DM as the key rule organism of a city is usually still DM controlled. (I exclude factions here, naturally)

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

People notifying you right away, people having to tell you exactly what you did, people having to give an exact duration (temp bans don't have to be exactly 5 days or exactly 10 or whatever, they can just be not permanent), people having to give you this "chance" or whatever you think you deserve, people having to obey your banlist, people having something against you and your group all specifically and rumormongering around it, people not being able to ban factions if they want


... and that's just some of the other things you want to claim have to be part of this whole change. Remember?!

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

Furthermore, why should they spell it out for you IC? If they don't like you IC and feel that you are deserving of such a ban, they can be jerks (or just uncaring of your feelings) IC without people jumping on the players OOC because they think they're also being jerks.

Commie, you keep quoting this and completely missing what I actually said. I didn't say that that's the reason they banned you. I said that they shouldn't be IC'ly required to be nice and spell out the "why". If a character doesn't like your character, IC'ly, the character can be a jerk and not explain it to your character after the fact. I didn't say it was okay for a character to ban another character just because they're a jerk and don't like you. I am absolutely against that, in fact, and shame on the people who do that.

I was only talking about IC attitudes and how it should not be enforced that a character who hates x evil person has to go out of his way to spell out "why" point by point to your character's satisfaction. IC.

And that players should not take that IC refusal to be nice as that other player being a jerk.

Please understand that.

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

I definitely agree that players should be informed OOC of all aspects of their character's ban. My only contention is forcing it IC. It's bad form IC, but absolutely IC for some characters. In itself, it is an aspect of conflict RP. Just recently my character was ready to slap some fools for refusing to tell someone who was banned why they were banned. "You know why" is not a suitable answer, to my character.

I draw the line at OOC forcing people to change how they RP. The OOC notification is fine. But don't make people change how they RP just because the character is a jerk. Pitt stirring the pot IC was a great response to that, for example. It made my character push for change and a more direct and clear reasoning. It was great to be able to approach that from my character's vastly different perspective.

Just as a recent example.

Ok, so if the bans are going to be overturned and limited then how do we keep characters from

A) Doing the same thing again... and again... and again.... etc
B) Turning around and seeking revenge for the alternate to the ban (jail time, lashes, etc)

Cause I can just see the 'You dis'd me - I dis you' train comin down the tracks.

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

The hard liners that are currently playing evil appear to be the most upset by the bans at the moment.

We haven't really had problems with enforcing bans; you just sort of deal with it.

The more this thread goes on it seems like people don't want to deal with the one harsh punitive measure there is or lighten it up.

It's a ban. It happens In Character- It should be handled in character. The very fact that there's an out of character thread about this is pretty bad. If there's a communicative issue, dms can and should set aside a few hours aside each week and respond to banning issues if players have not or are not of the correct authoritative level. Life's not fair sometime people are going to treat you like shit. Why should the game be any different? What if the pc's/npcs are corrupt and want to keep you out specifically to keep you out of mucking up their plans? So far this thread has only stirred OOC contention and showing that evil pc players are trying to push their own view to the only solution.

The current dm team has more than likely seen this thread and I'm certain they may have, or will discuss/ed this topic. If the lines of bans and how they are to be done need to be worked on I'm certain the current team will come up with a viable solution for a more even compromise all around. Continuing to argue the same points over and over isn't really adding on to anything as both sides seem to think the other can't see things form their perspectives.

As for Commie, yes I agree. I've always viewed bans to be dependent on crimes, but a good method I've found to be fair is to issue a fine and a day ban [typically nothing exceedingly big] if the fine isn't paid they aren't permitted back until after the initial time is paid and the fine is paid along with a promise to not repeat said actions else harsher punitive measures would be levied.

This allowed the banned pcs to choose when they want to rectify such a matter and initiate rp towards that. It gives the folks who were offended by the crime a small break form the pc. And it offers a chance to try again once things have been altered over / fixed. This only works if the pc's in charge are willing to rp. This also only works if the situation deems they should be allowed with in.


I'm all for letting them have other chances but it should be done with roleplay and in character.

man the banites didn't even ban anyone from wharftown when they TOOK OVER wharftown.

Due to the acts of assault, disobeying members of the militia, as well as threatening members of the militia, among other things, this ban has been made permanent with no chance for appeal in the future.

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

if anything comes out of this, a private message indicating why a PC was banned sent to the player and forwarded to a dm, just to avoid confusion as well as have some oversight for rediculousness. IC'ly speaking. If you are going to ban people for assault, you may as well shut down all the taverns.

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

IMHO, the whole concept of banning to begin with is rather silly.

In my view, creating all of these safe havens like Kohlingen and Wharftown, etc, seems really short sighted, clique building, segregating the playerbase by alignment, and anti-social in a game that's designed to bring players together to RP and potentially have tension between people (NOT NECCESSARILY PVP).

What else is going on? Is everyone just playing through their own story line, in such a way that other players are just not meant to intertwine ever?

Ozzy got banned from San Antonio for life for peeing on the Alamo. We're not talking about a major crime; the total fine was $40. They only lifted the ban 10 years later after he made a hefty donation to the Daughters of the Republic of Texas. That's a ban for life over peeing on a cenotaph.

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

My patience is very short today so I'm going to get a bit snippy here.

Kohlengen doesn't like Pitt or Bri or the entire settlement of theirs. Such is life. Deal with it. If you want to play with those people try being someone that doesn't make them so angry. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Why would Pitt be so upset about not being allowed into a place that he really doesn't jibe with unless it's to cause trouble?

Why are you so bent on belaboring the point when it's obvious that the people that run the place don't want that character around for whatever reason?

One of two things is going to happen here if you keep up the harangue; either a DM is going to take over and say that they have to let Pitt in and it's going to piss off all the players that worked in character to keep him out or you're just going to stir up bad feelings amongst the players with the constant carping about it. For the sake of sanity and goodwill would you please quit belaboring the point?

My patience is very short today so I'm going to get a bit snippy here.

Kohlengen doesn't like Pitt or Bri or the entire settlement of theirs. Such is life. Deal with it. If you want to play with those people try being someone that doesn't make them so angry. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Why would Pitt be so upset about not being allowed into a place that he really doesn't jibe with unless it's to cause trouble?

Why are you so bent on belaboring the point when it's obvious that the people that run the place don't want that character around for whatever reason?

One of two things is going to happen here if you keep up the harangue; either a DM is going to take over and say that they have to let Pitt in and it's going to piss off all the players that worked in character to keep him out or you're just going to stir up bad feelings amongst the players with the constant carping about it. For the sake of sanity and goodwill would you please quit belaboring the point?

Here are what I see are the current problems;

1. No communication
2. No listed duration
3. Done without any involvement from the PC's actually banned (no chance to explain/defend)
4. Bans applied to an entire faction... without any communication to individuals who are having to find out on their own, and who are then asking ooc if they count and are banned because they just hang out sometimes... leading me to;
5. Zero clarification and consistency. Does a kohl ban mean just inside the city or anywhere Silver Dragons are present? Depends on which PC you ask. Can we use lamps or the cart service? Depends on which PC you ask.

Here is what I propose as a solution.

1. Bans should be temporary at first (a week for minor, a month for major as an example) and players should be given a chance to rectify their behavior.
2. Bans should be clearly communicated to all parties, and so should the reason; players should always know why.
3. Faction bans (banning a faction) are a no-go except for sanctioned (run past/approved by the DM team and participating players so they have an 'out' if they don't like it) conflict like officially declaring war as a faction.
4. Ban lists should be better maintained on the forum.
5. If you have a faction area (ex Kohl Keep, the Fort) none of the above rules apply, except for clear communication, when it applies to that faction area specifically.
6. If you ban someone you need to give them channels to communicate assuming those channels aren't just used for further IC harassment.

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

But for crying out loud this thread sat dormant for two weeks before it had to get dredged up yet again. It's been a big circlejerk and nothing is getting done except to stir up bad feelings.

My two cents (personal and not official DM team opinion)

Well...I have done the warning, the fine, the jail time, the banning even execution a billion times during my time on Amia. Among all those cases from 2008 until now I can only list 1 character who ever bothered to RP some that brief jail time had some impact on his character.

The RP culture has two sides. I am happy to bring people to justice, fine them or everything. But if they return within 24 hours and do it again and again and again, then it gets annoying. So far banning is the only punishment that can have some serious impact on a character, nothing else.

If you present me an alternative or tell me how the RP culture should change on both sides then I will be happy to listen. Until then I will not change IC decisions because something is OOCly inconvenient.

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

Well..that only offered an alternative for one side. Not for both sides.

There is a difference between temp and permanent ban in an IC standpoint

- You usually get temporary ban if you committed a crime as per penal law (thievery in Kohlingen for example 1 week).
- You are getting permanently banned because you are posing as threat to the settlement or broke penal laws repeatedly. In both cases you are a threat to national security in modern terminology. Of course more radical steps will be made towards your characters.

Two things are different. See the aforementioned example that you presented. If the same offenses had been done in other settlements repeatedly then the settlement in question might as well act accordingly and consider the individual in question a deviant who is literally incapable understanding the concept of law. If a person is deemed a deviant then nobody will like that.

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

My two cents (personal and not official DM team opinion)

Well...I have done the warning, the fine, the jail time, the banning even execution a billion times during my time on Amia. Among all those cases from 2008 until now I can only list 1 character who ever bothered to RP some that brief jail time had some impact on his character.

The RP culture has two sides. I am happy to bring people to justice, fine them or everything. But if they return within 24 hours and do it again and again and again, then it gets annoying. So far banning is the only punishment that can have some serious impact on a character, nothing else.

If you present me an alternative or tell me how the RP culture should change on both sides then I will be happy to listen. Until then I will not change IC decisions because something is OOCly inconvenient.

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.

First of all, my brain is one of the best here.