Huh, strange. Because that rule seems to actually allow specific incindents. They are only not allowed when you flame or degrade with them. Neither Serbiris nor NinjaClarinet seemed inflammatory.

Setting certain factors aside that exasperated me both as a former player and designer, I look back on Amia quite fondly. Even if I am at times tempted to jump on and play a little, there are two primary reasons I am not doing so.

The most important to me (and the one of a more personal nature) is that I continue to feel certain members of the community were treated unfairly and were pushed out. Among them people who had contributed an enormous amount to the enjoyment of the server both in character and out. I left in objection to some of these, and I am not comfortable returning and being part of this community until these were addressed.

Secondly, my impression since a long time has been that the server would need to make a few changes in how it is operated and developed. I feel a lot of the issues (like the toxicity) are in no small part symptoms of inefficiencies that failed to be addressed. The toxicity did not occur in a vacuum, but is a culmination of different frustrations. While I do think Amarice is absolutely right the community should treat each other better, doing so without addressing where this comes from will likely be a short term improvement at best.

To me the "smile and be nice" request has always been anoying to an extend. I understand why it is asked, but when it is not backed up by truly working on addressing concerns, it always (to some degree) came across as sweeping these concerns under the carpet. I believe to some extend this is why these requests always turn into discussions. On some level, a good portion of the community want to discuss what is preventing them from "smiling and being nice". Which is a lot better than apathy.

I think the only way I would be inclined to return is if the DMs and Designers sat down together and hammered out some true changes to attempt to address these, and then stuck with the attempt for several months. If it started working, offer a blanket recall of all bans (excluding stuff like harassment or hacking the forums), offering clean slates while also working hard for transparency. Deserved or not, to me it seems the trust in the staff has been fundamentally compromised. Fair or not for the staff, it takes an effort to correct it.

Edit: And just to clarify, I in no way excuse the harassment and other personal insults behind the scenes.

Nowhere, even remotely, I asked to "smile and be nice".

I asked to read a little more carefully how (often hastey and "in the heat of battle" written) replies are formulated and to not needlessly derail into just airing frustration 'without' actually properly addressing the elephant in the building but rather ship around it with general rants and bitching at others. People especially then suddenly begin to fall into generalizations instead of actually focusing on the facts of what even bothers them specifically at this moment.

The moment someone goes "I think this should be improved" 20 others jump on the train and go "and by the way how the server is handled in general sucks too" "and by the way, I feel I was wronged aswell on december 5th 2014" "oh and that said, I feel x and y were handled poorly too".

There is no wrong in discussing problems at all. And you should not just bury them and "just smile and wave" but it is far easier - for everyone - to handle issues on a more factual than purely emotional level. I understand this isn't an easy thing to do, but it can be done. I had to learn this for my job. Do I always succeed? Hell no. Should you leave out any emotion? No, that isn't even really possible anyways. Should you take a deep breath before you reply? Turn away from the screen for 10 minutes, do something else, come back and re-read what you are about to post (in a situation that really frustrated/upset you) before you click the post button to see if you actually stayed on the topic and worded what it actually is you want changed or feel should be addressed and not just spit generalized angry paroles? Yes, that I think we all should. Will it always work? No it will not, but if it at least does every second time, it is something already.

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+1 for addressing issues. DM synopsis and solution should become standard practice for these threads. So that we can all save ourselves the time of trying to convince either side "we're right" which then gets very heated as you can clearly see deeply entrenched sides on Amia as of late.

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bad man

We can have a server wide sit down with the DM team, Dev team, and player base in game if people are adamant about it? We can address your concerns directly and talk to you one on one.

This would need to wait till after the holidays and it most likely have to be set in the US prime time, sorry Euro dudes.

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Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661

Unless there's a core issue you want addressed (aside from general negativity) I wouldn't recommend it.

Because there doesn't seem to be any singular problem but rather a lot of separate little problems individuals have causing longstanding bitterness, many of which ware several years ago, I simply don't see any open sit-down helping anyone.

I would predict any meeting of that nature to end up like many forum topics except even harder to follow as it's in real time, with individuals showing far less restraint for the same reason.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Essentially, a sit-down would prevent exactly what Amarice suggests people should do: Take some time to cool down before replying to a post.

I still think the forums are the place to do this, even though talking can be a bit annoying via PMs. I find it pretty difficult to wait for someone to answer a PM. How much effort would it be to make a subforum where you only get the right to enter from a DM, and it is there for talking about "more private" issues, like Serbiris or NinjaClarinet? It seems like many of the issues are more personal. Maybe I'm wrong here, and it is a terrible idea, but to me it seems better than a server-wide thing.
Essentially like the DM rooms that they always use for requests, with the Job Log Eating Penguin and stuff.

>looks up from enjoying amia, zolt says check the threads
>read the threads, realize why I never read the forums
>seriously miss ninjaclarinet and azureluna
>goes back to trying to make a story in game.
>makes coffee

We're moving forward, at least I felt it. I mean, I left and was Gung ho about never returning after some of the events that went down but... you all really picked yourselves up. We can air grievances in private towards the person you want to dick punch but don't make a scene of it, this is embarrassing to death. Most of us have known each other for years, people; I consider some of you my closest friends (sad not sad). With the server progressing as it is with the introduction of a few fantastic new dms and increased player interest, we're heading toward the completion of the "amia sucks right now but it won't soon" cycle.
Things got bad, then awful, then unplayable... then there was hope, a light at the end of a bazooka, players popped back up spurring more dm interest spurring the server back to life. This has happened so many times. This is how something like amia, seemingly, has to survive. It knows no other way. I love you all (except for estara whom I'm in love with), and things can get better... maybe try avoiding the forums for shit like this? Ever? Silly people.

Come together, right now, all over my face- John Lennon

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Hel'Vyst Be'tner
Veris Al'Rith

- "Fuck you, I'm from Waterdeep."



(OMGOSH OLIVE MADE A LIL' HEL'VYST)

Me tooooooo! Q_Q

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I don't think open forum is the way to go either. I think it'd be wise to have these threads responded to by the DM team as either individuals (gimme ur real thoughts bb) and then with the team's judgement.


It'd just be nice to see something like "DM team is deliberating on how to address: [insert a list of issues perceived to be the core of x topic]" and then later posting their solution/synopsis.

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bad man

So, I figured I might add a bit of my own perspective here.
I posted the reasons why I left in a thread I think is locked now... or something. Not sure, I can still see it, but if I click it, it says that the thread was moved. Anyways, not gonna delve into that here.

I do lurk the forums from time to time to see if things are any better than they were when I left, and I've logged in a couple of times to tool around on one of my PCs, but have been way too shy to get into anything serious.

There does still seem to be a theme of general outrage, call-out mentality going on around here, which is what I think a lot of the toxicity people talk about boils down to. And that's downright shitty. It's correct, but that doesn't make it any less terrible. I think Amarice makes an excellent point that a lot of that comes from a heat of the 'battle' moment where someone wants to be vindictive to 'beat' the other person and 'win' the argument of whatever. And this is something we are all guilty of, but that doesn't mean it needs to rule.

People playing here, I've noticed often form OOC cliques that they tend to stick with IC too, and I;m guilty of doing the same. I'll also not badmouth the practice too much, because I understand why people do it. Its a survival mechanism, in a sense. In a general community of a group of cliques, it's easy to feel like you have an "Us vs. Them" mentality, and there are indeed times when that line of thinking seems justified to us. Another thing I've noticed is people tend to like to hoard and sit on something for a long time, be it IC power, OOC power, or anything inbetween. (This is not a dig at anyone in particular, it's just an observation- please don't react with outrage to this point) And they then stagnate and can tend to be aggressive to things that seem to threaten this stability. I also understand that, people want to hold onto what they feel they've earned. Although there are times when that can cause them to go onto the offensive and sabotage others preemptively. Again, it's a survival thing, but these two factors put together can very easily make people feel like outsiders and hesitant to come into this community. It's something that I noticed more so after I left and came back for a time (It's also the reason I didn't stay) It's hard to build that up, and it's hard to integrate yourself here, especially if you're unsure about the climate.

Communication itself is generally lost and more difficult in text format as well, it's easy to misinterpret things as hateful or vindictive or spiteful over text. We weren't meant to communicate this way, but hell, this is the best we got to work with.

Elmmaster made a great post with the whole Nettiquette policy, and I think it's probably the way to go. Now, of course it's boring to use the forums like that, but that's what we have the whole OOC randomness forum for. There's a time and a place for certain behavior, and it seems like some people don't entirely get that all the time. We like outrage, and outrageousness, but that's not the best way to communicate. And it certainly can create an environment in which we all can act our worst at times. I'm no exception to this, and neither are you. (Yes you, the person reading this post.)

At risk of sounding all hippie-dippie, kumbaya-ya-ish, we need to remember that we're all individuals with our own feelings at times, and the golden rule of "Treat others the way you would want to be treated" really goes a long way. And don't hate yourself if you fuck it up once in a while.

That's beautifully human.

I've been rambling, and with that, I return to my profession of being absolutely boring for a while, and poke my head in every so often.

I hope you guys figure out how to get along with each other, I miss you guys, and I miss being a developer, but I don't miss the environment I left behind.

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Occasionally seen as [DM] Raua, or playerside as...

Basically for this reason I suggested the "private forum". In PMs, in my opinion, there kind of is a lack of transparency. In this "private forum", you would see what other people (DMs mostly) post, and can react quickly. In a PM, you don't have that. In this "private forum" you'd only have the people who are involved directly, rather than the whole server.

i mean like an in-game get together, vs reacting to threads as they raise issues (as stated before some of which are recurring and unanswered problems. If the DM team made stances on it it'd lessen the minutiae involved in all of those threads.

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bad man

A year or two ago we had an in-game talk that was probably the only reason I came back. I'd suggest it again.

I don't feel what we're going through now is as serious as it was then, but it doesn't mean we can't benefit from the same. As long as players are earnest and understanding in the points they make, and long as DMs are earnest and understanding in hearing them and acting on them.

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*deep breath*

Amia will always be what you make of it.

I've been a long time player, DM, and am back to playing again. Here are some things from my experience that I think are important to share:

When I started on Amia, I felt ignored a bit. I got bitter, and was one of a number of "Angry Hin Players" for the greater part of a year. My girl friend at the time, and I, played this game together, and when things didn't go as we thought they should we'd get indignant about it and pitch a fit. In hind sight, I was not a part of a solution, but a part of the continual problem, being all too willing to bring my own negativity to the forums. We weren't alone either. There was an angry band of us that used to get all uppity, a lot. We had all come from much smaller servers, with updates happening quickly and all the time. However, the stories at our former servers were not as involved, and when the Dev teams at the other servers burned out after a year, sometimes two, so did the Servers. I personally thought Amia was temporary like that, so I treated it as such. Boy was I wrong.

This has proven time and time again to not be the case with this place. Too many people genuinely give a damn about Amia to let it go off quietly like so many other servers do.

In time, I came around to changing my own approach from that of a bitter player on an online world, just out for my/close RP buddies' own satisfaction. What initiated that change for me, was when I started to talk to more folks that I didn't play with as often from here in real life. Though it wasn't much, I less and less thought things should be my own way and realized exactly what the Team at the time said when they used the term "Community." (I think that credit goes to post that either Yossarin, Tormak, or Paladin of Sune made concerning attitudes in general. Seems the post was lost back when the forums were hacked) In any case, I no longer thought of things as a "we vs. them" situation any more.

It was just all of us, from very different walks of life, tuning in from all over the globe, to create fun stories together.

After that realization, I stopped thinking of folks as just names on a forum and NPCs in my own PC's story, and more like fellow players at the same digital table. Devs drew up the digital playing mat and provided lore that could be used by everyone to explore the game's world. DMs breathed life into the world by taking what the Devs gave them and playing the NPCs in order to guide the PCs. Players got to drive the story, and made a real impact on the direction of the server through their actions.

Once that got into my head, I started to give a real fuck about things, and thought about how my own actions would impact others. I started driving my own plots in game, as I didn't need the DMs to make my own RP or story happen.

That shift is what eventually led to me, formerly a part of the problem, being asked to join the DM team. Just putting this out there as a hint for any aspiring DMs: Folks really notice you when you truly give genuine fucks about things.

Now, DMing wasn't exactly a cake walk either, but it is a positive experience on the whole. In the spirit of honesty, when I started as a DM here, I fucked up. A lot. In my first "big plot" debut, I let some folks blow up Kampo's (and took one heck of a lot of flak for it behind the DM screen), but I also learned a lot from my fuck ups. It helped me get a better grasp of what was and wasn't cool to have our Devs work on, as well as showed me the how to handle players that had been where I was once upon a time. The 1st most important advice I can offer any future team is to remember to keep your cool on the public forum, and check any baggage from the real world at the door, or if you must, in the Skype chats before heading up top. The lessons I learned in doing that emboldened me to take charge of DMing in the UD and I did the best I could for what had arguably been the most toxic subject/location on the server at the time.

Fast forward a few years and well, know that great scene in The Dark Knight? "You either die a hero, or live long enough to become the villain." ...Yup.

I realized about mid way into the last big round of head butting that my "meter o' fucks" had reached a 0. I did what I could for as long as I could, but I started coming to terms with the fact that I probably wasn't the best fit for the Team any more. Roughly a year later (which I mostly missed mainly due to RL shifts at my job) and I have stepped down on my own terms. That leads me to the 2nd important piece of advice I can give to any present and future team: The subforum is called "DMs Adding and Removing" for a reason. A follow up 3rd most important bit of advice would be to not be afraid that things will fall apart with out you, and step down or take a break when you think your own "meter o' fucks" is running dangerously close to empty and not regenerating. You'll be a much stronger asset to the community of Amia if you do.

Hindsight is 20/20 though.

I couldn't be happier with how things are now, with the team or my playing. Attitudes on the forums ebb and flow, especially as faces change over the years, but so long as something is done to remind folks that we're in this together when we lose sight of that, I think things will go well.

TL;DR: Self reflection is a necessity to really figure out where you fit on the server. Remember everyone is at the same big gaming table, so treat each other as you would like to be treated.

~Dusty

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

I too had my meter of fucks at empty. But with time, as Dusty said, it steadily filled back up again. I wouldn't really know where to start to get back into things, but stress has long since gone and been replaced with a content nostalgia.

Hackysack, you know if you want to try and generate some fun I am always down to discuss ideas

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

@Amarice: I know you have been chugging along for quite a while. Perseverence is a commendable trait. Being part of the DM team you know that aside from my knee-jerk reactions to obviously inflammatory posts, I send out DM bombs, rather than blast things to the general public, lest ooc opinions alter IC behavior. That is singularly the biggest issue we have, aside from skype snipers. Generally speaking, I don't know any of you well enough to form an opinion of hatred. Yet I casually walk into conversations where people are being singled out, talked down upon or ostracized.This simply shouldn't be. Recently I had an issue with someone I have known for quite some time and while our IC characters were opposed, we had always been cordial ooc. In the end it was a terrible misunderstanding that could have been rectified with simple conflict resolution. Literally just talk to me. In addition..it's a game. A very involving one, but a game none the less. I think as players and DM's we could reevaluate what that means. In my opinion, it means having fun. The "bad guys" and "good guys" shouldn't be at each other's real life throats, because often, the characters were made with the intention of being a foil for one another. Hard, honest truth: The evil players are generally nicer to me IC, OOC and feel less exclusive. A good percentage of our servers "Core Players" are all real friends, and thusly tend to migrate with one another for new RP opportunities, often bringing in some others for the ride, as well as what is often percieved (perception is not reality, however this is the sentiment of the disenfranchised) as unlimited DM attention. This isn't at all a bad thing, but often it makes players without such a close circle, feel as though they are being pushed out, have no shot or have no voice as the RP tends to be driven or dominated by one or two people. It takes players, not DM's to remedy this. We are lacking a lot of consideration and compassion for those around us, and "toxic" is what's used to describe it. I don't feel it's a toxic environment, what I feel is that instead of being meek and hiding behind thread posts, Skype chats and private messages, we could discuss this openly and without recourse. It also means being receptive if you are on the other end. Of course I may have missed the mark entirely, but this is how I feel.

P.S. For Christmas I want for requests to become easier. Unless it's something that will destroy the server. I love seeing new things, people, classes, races, plotlines ect.. It would take some eyes off of the "Fair/Unfair sentiment that runs rampant and creates divides. Some folks are better at articulating what they want, and also have the support and means to make it possible. I guess what I'm saying is...if it doesn't hurt anyone, and it makes some sense, why not.

*Edit* Specifically visual, nonmechanical requests. IE: Wings, Tails, Horns ect... If someone makes a Tiefer or Aasimar these are fairly standard and the current process to achieve them takes longer than simply requesting them at character generation and leveling to 30.

Was worth a shot...I know Santa isn't real.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

How many players are evil, though?! :O

More seriously, all I want with 2017 is for all players to just...stop being mean. Even if you don't like someone, be nice anyway. This is a game. This is a community of players with a similar interest. No one has to "win" at this. Just play and tell your story and have fun. Don't drag OOC drama into it. Don't get passive aggressive or beat down on someone else because you don't like their character or their play style or their friends or whatever else you may not like.

Play. Have fun. Make friends. That's why we're here!

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

*Strokes his cat while laughing maniacally from his command node* How many indeed.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

^ X100000000000

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I mirror this comment perfectly. Short and perfectly worded.

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>:D

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Hel'Vyst Be'tner
Veris Al'Rith

- "Fuck you, I'm from Waterdeep."



(OMGOSH OLIVE MADE A LIL' HEL'VYST)

This is something I've felt we could benefit from for a while. Not go willy-nilly into the early days of Post-Arelith Amia, just ask ourselves "why not" more often than "why so". Storywise and otherwise. So often I find myself looking through DM requests and feeling daunted on others behalf. Its not uncommon that I send players PMs with my advice as to how to make their idea work or allay DM's concerns about certain issues, or links to somewhat recent requests for precedent. And really, that's what the DMs should want to do. The process now is so predicated on convincing DMs to your side, when it really isn't about them, but our setting. "This is what I want to do. If at all possible, can you help me make it work in our setting, if indeed it needs work to fit." That's what I'd love to see requests become, more active input and guidance given to players.

I think it's partially symptomatic of the "deferment" that goes on in requests. There are some areas, balance, racial lore, roleplay that particular DMs just shine at. Understandably, other DMs on the team want these players to have their say in requests dealing with areas of their expertise. But so often will you see "If X is okay with it..." and then it gets quoted by like 4 other DMs. It's good that DMs realize their areas of weakness, but I feel its somewhat counter to the point of having a team of stewards in the first place if issues of balance or elven lore or whatever come down to the say-so of the same one or two DMs. Even well-meaning, it leads to other sets of issues. From my experience in the past as a player, it seemed like we were at our best when every DM was at least a little versed in every thing, but more importantly, was alright with the idea of speaking out, conflicting if necessary, and healthy discussion, to the benefit of both players and the server.

I'm not sure if that can fit in a stocking, but there goes.

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I have to have to highlight a point of order here, if a problem is to dealt with privately then it stands to reason that one party cannot request/suggest/order another party to cease open discussion and take it to pm/skype/etc but then immediately following up with their own say/dig/comeback.

Either all parties involved in a disagreement should be free to have an open discussion about the problem or all parties must be obliged to keep the dialogue private to those directly involved.

The should count for player / DM disputes as much as player / player disputes.

I know nothing of the dispute mentioned in the quoted text but it seems to me that in this instance the player should not have raised their matter in this manner and not in this kind of thread.
It follows that the DM response was inappropriate both as a fellow player and as a DM who must set the example for the community to follow being the persons of authority they are, and take charge of the matter to expedite a resolution.

Or in other words both parties are wrong in their approach and both smack of a lack of respect as their default position, one they should both adopt (as should the community as a whole ) and strive to maintain EVEN in the face of just cause to bite back.

This we can hope will induce an increase in self respect for maintaining civility in the face of adversity and a corresponding reciprocal increase in respect from those players on the other side of a dispute.

In my experience as a veteran player who drifted away from the rise in immature and often toxic exchanges in game and on these forums and at risk of sounding glibe or flippant, players and DM both need to get over their OOC selves and try to keep in mind that Amia is a collaborative effort.

The sharp decline in active players over the last few years should be all the evidence required for the community to grasp the concept that the real Humans need to start treating the other real Humans with the respect due which should be at least the same respect they would require for themselves, if there is to be any hope of a rapprochement between players in dispute.

Merry Christmas to you my fellow Amians let's make 2017 the year we all make extra effort to be better community members to each other regardless of our in game antics and differences of opinions.

Without me your game is empty.

Without you my game is empty.

Edit: spelling and grammar.

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Æ special character = ALT+0198

Party chat filtered, RP or it didn’t happen

This most closely reflects my feelings, after playing on several servers with massive differences in discussion and operation and watching them all die slowly.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the openness, the honesty, even the brutality of the communication on Amia is AMAZING, FREEING and beautiful. The fact that a thread like this exists, just laying it all on the table, would never fly other places. To me, that's valuable.

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My own time on Amia was mostly free of OOC chat. No one really sends me tells aside from one or two players so my IG OOC experience is from party chats. From eavesdroping those chats I've usually only ever heard bad things coming from tells, but party chat was always friendly.

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You will likely not see me as:

Fymor Trueshot