Any chance we could improve upon the Mythal system especially given its numerous inconsistencies to power values

For instance

5 Enhancement is Four powers
5 Attack Bonus AND 4 Enhancement is Two powers
That is 1 damage difference for two powers.

Three universal saves is four powers.
Three Reflex AND Fort AND Will specific saves totals 3 powers.
That's 4v3 powers for the same effect.

The system is also incredibly sub par when it comes to high end gear due to 5 AC costing 2 powers, greatly limiting the creation of Mythal custom gear. Reducing the cost of 5AC to One power would allow the creation of Boots such as 5AC 2stat. Something already buy able in stores and just below epic tier. Additionally this'd be appreciated on amulets due to Natural AC availability short of specific spells.


Thoughts for changes

Universal saves - One per power
Armor Class - One power total
Enhancement - One power total, or at worst Two Powers at +5 Enhancement
Regen - One per power
Freedom - One power total ((Additionally believe this auto changes to freedom spell uses per day now after changing servers)).
Skills - One power total per skill type
Damage reduction - One power total per type

No way



Blatant power creep



making +5 enh. two powers and +5 AB/+4 enh 2 powers defeats the point, even more so if it's only1 power. blatant power creep



Defensive regen stacking is already too easy, no



absolutely not, we should be making freedom more difficult, not easier



This is already how it is, +30 skills is 1 power



This is already how it is, 5/- and 20/- are still 1 power

Ed:

The indirect ramifications of this are also tremendous. when you massively kick up mythal power like this, people also expect a commensurate upgrade in power to DC item requests, which is already bonkers high power creeped even compared to when I came back in 2015. Please don't do this.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Actually, up to 10/- is one power, after 15/- it is more. Which is fine tho imho.

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Oh, you're right, my bad, sorry.

My assessment is edited to thus: Don''t change, pls.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

This ((Above)) is already the case with the current system.

Uni saves are ONE POWER EACH when taking them as three separate specific saves.
5 Attack bonus and Four enhancement is Two powers with the current system, yet 5 enhancement is four. Thats one damage gained for two power. Makes no sense.
Apparently DR should be two powers total, thought DR was currently one and two, guess not. Unless the info's outdated!

AC change is to allow for the creation of sub epic gear without having to grind for hours on end for the more massive jump to epic/dc level gear.

Regen. Doesnt bother me so much. Most regen comes from gear already exceeding the Mythal power limit, especially given regens current power cost.

As for requests, they should still remain tied with epic gear at absolute best.

put haste on a ring and normalize 1 power for 5 enhancement or ac

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Perma Haste isn't allowed.

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+5 weapon enhancement being 1 power makes +5 Ab existing pointless.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

so what? itd still be required for bows but i dont see why it should be so many powers when casters get it for free and get to save slots on top of that

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The mythal system is very limited in what you can get and if you notice in DC requests they make them pay as if getting +5 added to weapons so they add it anyway.

Then again it falls down to they are a caster they have different powers then others and being able to cast GWM is not getting it for free, they use a spell slot and a spell... they also have limited spells they can cast as a down fall, not always being able to rest in events...ect so they have down sides and upsides.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

The current cost of DC items shouldn't have any bearing on what the system could be changed to. It being limited so it should remain limited is circular logic. What the power system should do is facilitate the greatest variance in builds that can be effective without being overbearing (like shifter was, not that I agree with the absolutely brutal butt fucking it received).

If you aren't a caster on this server, you either spent an extreme amount of time on a character who can be summed up with "i hit things with my rapier/scimitar and spent all my DCs getting equipment that lets me do that better while having no pnp abilities to contribute to rp," you have HiPS, or you are shit.

The current item system facilitates this greatly because there is little ability to perform well without extensive buffing (from allied casters or consumables) because all your power goes towards AC and fortitude, and you need epic items to contribute to your ability scores. If you aren't a monk, a single breach vs that potion you just drank means you just lost the fight.

If you are a monk:
[spoiler]
You are still shit, especially if you choose to go unarmed. No +6 dex gloves because you need to waste it on shitty +6 ab, +2d6 damage ones. Then to be effective, you need 4 ability scores (though I'd be willing to exclude strength if gloves had more damage) and 4 skills (discipline, hide, move silently, spot). But of course you still need fortitude like everyone else, so that comes to a grand total of about 10 things you need on a greatly reduced power pool. Please buff monk. It's the most thematic and the coolest class but it's just lame to play. So many trade offs to just be lack luster in all aspects but defense. Get HiPS or get sneaks and UMD. Get quarter staff or get to hit people for 7 damage. Get dex or get to die in 2 rounds.
[/spoiler]


My proposed changes:

4 of any ability score = 1 power
5 ac = 1 power
5 enhancement = 1 power
5 ab on ranged = 1 power
6 ab on gloves = 0 power
This first grouping is what I would do to push non-casters closer to casters in the cost of long term buffs versus item power.

1 universal saves = 1 power
2 individual save = 1 power
5 skill points of one skill = 1 power
5 damage resistance of one type (acid, cold, electrical, fire, sonic) = 1 power
5 damage resistance of one type (other types) = 2 power
The second grouping is to put epic items and craftable items closer together. Epic items served their part back when they were rare and prestigous, now you don't even have to grind for them, if you have enough friendo-rp points you can just talk to a DM merchant and buy them with a little bonus benefit.

haste = 1 or 2 power
freedom = 4 power
The last grouping is what I'd consider personal preference. Everyone has haste anyway, this just makes it so they don't have to waste a round and a bunch of money on it (unless they're a good class, then they get it for free). I really don't care one bit about having to rebalance monsters around the change either, just don't bother. No one grinds for fun.
As for freedom, it is currently too cheap as it provides far too many defensive properties for it to be allowed on just any item slot. This would restrict it to the armor or weapon slots, both of which are very important, while giving a nice boost to assassin, all those neat little cloud spells that no one uses as well as other stuff like entangle and called shot.



What do you slot as a caster? There aren't a whole lot of options that occupy the same spell level slots that these buffs do that do anything to other players. Balagarn's Iron Horn, Fear, unmodified Ice Storm, Lesser Spell Breach. Everything else is a buff to yourself or your party members.
The upper level spell slots are occupied with breaches, mass haste, and things that either summon to kill people or directly kill people and a few sparing buffs like Aura of Vitality, Premonition, or Shadow Shield. You have 25 slots dedicated to buffing, and then 25 slots dedicated to killing shit. The only reason they seem lack luster in pvp is because most casters just send out their epic spells and then try to finish the other guy off with missile storms (which does work because lots of 30s have sub-300 health).
The consensus among the devs doing the spell changes seems to be they want casters to do even more damage, when damage was never the issue in the first place. The problem is heal potions. Change them to restore 100% health, but reduce all healing by 75% for 5 minutes as a penalty. The heal reduction affecting heal kits and any healing spell, but not things like regeneration or vampiric regeneration.


For clarification these are the classes I consider to be casters (while having builds that are viable with 25+ levels in them) and this is the breakdown for how much power each one gets from long term buffs (25+ minutes without extend).

[Bard]
Mage Armor: +1 dodge AC (.25 power)
Bard Song: +6 untyped AC (2.25 power)
GMW: +5 enhancement (4 power)
Keen Weapon: keen (1 power)
Bull/Cat: 2 to 7 power (I'll count only one, 2 power)
=9.5 power

[Cleric]
Bark Skin: +5 natural AC (2 power for 5 AC)
Magic Vestment: +5 armor AC
Shield of Faith: +5 deflection AC
Undeath's Eternal Foe: +4 natural AC (1 power; turns not rounds)
Bulls/Rhino/Owl: 2 to 7 power each (Counting 3 maximized, for 15 power)
Freedom
= 22 or 23 power
+4 if using weapon

[Druid]
Bark Skin: +5 natural AC
Owl's Insight: +12 wisdom (12 power)
Bulls/Cats/Rhino: 2 to 7 power each (Counting 3 maximized, for 15 power)
Freedom
= 29 power
+4 if using weapon

[Sorcerer/Wizard]
Epic Mage Armor: +5 armor AC, +5 deflection AC, +5 dodge AC, +5 natural AC
Mage Armor: +1 dodge AC
Cat/Rhino/Eagle or Fox: 2 to 7 power each (Counting 3 maximized, for 15 power)
Shadow Shield: +5 deflection AC (not counted into total power; also don't understand why it still has 100% damage immunity to negative but a spell 2 levels higher doesn't)
=23.25 power
+4 if using weapon

Then beyond those long term buffs, you get other shit that is either situational or lasts rounds/level.
- Aura of Vitality: +4 str/dex/con (12 power)
- Energy buffer spells (They can't really be given a value)
- Haste
- Regenerate: +6 regeneration (7 power)
- Monstrous Regeneration: +3 regeneration (4 power)
- Spell Resistance: 37 to 41 SR (I'll count as 2 power)

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For my part of the argument, it wasn't about the cost, it was about the actual powers of the item. People have a general expectation that they can get away with more than what's on epic gear or mythals with DC items, so if you buff what you can do in game with Mythals, there'll be an accordingly higher expectation with what you can do with DC items, and that's a huge source of power creep. Hell, there's been straight up power creep just from august of 2016 to now, in terms of what's been approved on items.

permahaste is never coming to the server, so it shouldn't even really be argued.

Freedom should be getting rended so imho no point in putting in time to change the Mythal system for it.

I think your first group of buffs does too much to buff Dex based Melee, and casters. That's the real problem with buffing non casters - that dex based WM melee or dex based SD melee is still the strongest thing this side of sliced bread entirely due to Epic Dodge. Power creep on items is very very real, and we went from being able to barely get +5 on weapons, Armor, and shield, to it being pretty ubiquitous everywhere. The one I can get behind is 0 powers for AB/Enh on gloves, because god only knows fist monks actually need that help really really badly. (they should just have the AB on the gloves changes to Enhancement, instant damage boost to unarmed monks) I still don't agree with making +5 enhancement one power. +5 AB/+4 enh/Keen/1d10 dmg is still a fantastically good weapon. There's no need to be able to just add +3 vampiric regen to that at will.

+4 stat being 1 power is also ridiculous for casters, who only ever need to hit +7 off items in order to max their stat with buffs. That's even more slots freed up for their gearing, for the classes who already have the most gearing freedom in the entire game.

In your second group, everything but the final physical resist bit is already how it is in the mythal system, assuming I read you right and it's 2 individual save means +2 to one save (and not "bonuses to 2 saves"). I don't have a lot to say besides that - there's no arguing that power creep went up, monster fighting in general is way, way down, and the Djinn has subsumed a lot of inter-PC RP and work on requests in favor of a DC item and Epic Item merchant.

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To address this one on the side: I think this is more due to how our monsters work and how DnD spells work. DnD is a game full of billions of silver bullets, both offensive and defensive. So many things can instantly end a fight if you're not immune to it that the best way to deal with it is to just be immune to it. See: Freedom, Mindblank, UEF/NEP, Death Ward, Prot/Align, etc etc etc. This is even more prevalent in PvE where mobs were sometimes designed carelessly, with 6 creatures with Stunning auras, or fear Auras, or 7 monsters that all use a Dominate Gaze 3 times, or 6 Hold Monsters, or etc. I'm personally doing what I can to change monsters up and make that a little less prevalent, so people don't feel they NEED to be constantly immunitied up from level 3 on just to be able to walk into an area. I think though, at the end of the day, DnD is a system that heavily encourages buffing - and we're a very high magic setting, to boot.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Just going to focus on a few things and not all of it because its the weekend and I don't feel like doing a page writing followed with a page of math explaining everything.



They should have a bearing on what the system should be because they in the end are items on the server and what we use to base other items from requests or what items DM create are based off past items because they are viewed as balanced. Trust me no one dislikes the fact items and mythal system don't line up, the fact regeneration costs don't line up with the amount placed on items in game, item power slots not being in line with magical effects..ect, but why it bugs me is more because as I said above I base power off a mix of mythal system/items in game




This one jumps out at me because I think your math is just so off, you think for 1-2 powers fair for gaining
50% bonus to their movement rate, a +4 dodge bonus to armor class and an extra attack every round and all spellcasting times are cut in half.
That extra attack alone should be worth a fair bit, the idea that for the cost of 5 blunt resistance that it is worth the same as perma haste with its extra free attack to you seems wrong.



Ok I can tell you right now if your out hunting...ect in a group powering though stuff or even in some events with hordes of monsters with 25 attack spells you would be empty in no time unless you limit yourself to one attack spell per group and have a bunch of melee classes clean up everything else with your summon.

I'm not a dev so cant know 100% to the mind sent of them but from my view, they are buffing up useless spells from the lower levels because it was pointless to cast them and it was making the caster a bit junky, as a fighter or melee class you level up you get BAB and more attacks more Str for damage and AB, weapon feats...ect all of that adds up and up over your levels and in the end it all pays off because all of that added effects your end goal of hitting the person getting you a 100% return on the investment so to speak.

But think of the caster with all the extra spell slots you don't want to start with because the only thing left of value they have is buff because the damage spells don't scale well vs monster HP, and if the buff spells outlast the rest timer you only need a 1-2 sometimes. So I think it was all to make it feel like the caster is getting more value for its spell slots.

As per the Heal potion thing.... they would have to rebalance everything all the monsters,spells..ect because stuff was scaled off the idea that people had heal potions that change would make it so it should be assumed heal potions are no longer in the game for PvE unless you expect players to pull a group and if anyone heals sit there for 5 mins till the cool down is over..... I don't think the devs will want to go though and reduce all the monsters AB, AC and damage.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

None of the powers are based on any sort of math. I'd give haste a low value so everyone could fit it in.

25 spells (some of which are summons) that CC/damage enemies so your summons can kill them faster does actually go a very long way. All I play are casters and one shitty monk.

Heal potions don't have anything to do with PvE.

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We'll never get perma haste.

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I'm a caster, I always have haste.

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Melsa

There are horrors beyond life's edge that we do not suspect,
and once in a while, man's evil prying calls them just within our range.

Correct.

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Ok so none of the powers are based off math, so you just pulled numbers out of a hat or placed value off what you want? In that case Immunity to heal and mass heal are 1 power, perma Mestil's acid sheath is 2 powers..... this is fun!

I know very well haste will never be added the main reason why I'm focusing on it is because it stands out the most and is a good factor in why your scale system is off in balance.

For it to balance out it has to be based off some sort of value system math needs to be factored in to ensure it all good, haste is a very powerful effect if not one of the most and the notion that you placed its value so low that everyone can have it is not how things should be built around, everyone chugs mind blanks should we add immunity to mind spells, or Ghostly visage is on potions that anyone can buy and use what about 10% concealment on item. This is not a potion drinking simulator so lets just cut out the middle man and let people just perma request what they can maintain off potions on items.

Yes people can keep haste up with potions,mindblanks and countless other effects be it potions or wands with UMD...ect but they all factor into balance of costing the player gold to maintain it vs. a caster buffing them.



I'm not even sure how to reply to that part because that statement is so crazy, what are you playing that heal potions don't have anything to do with players combating the monsters?

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

I explained my reasoning you troglodyte. One or two points so everyone can fit a relevant item property already part of the base game into their item builds is the balance suggestion. One that people here do not like, because they prefer casters dominating everyone else and are utterly terrified of epic dodge weapon masters who have no bonus to movement speed or HiPS. If you want some sort of point value based on an abstract connection between AC, movement speed, and an extra action you aren't going to get one. Would you argue that there is some sort of connection between 2 universal saves being worth 2 power and +4 enhancement being 1 power? No, because they are unique properties that can only be balanced around themselves. Just because haste shares one aspect with other item properties doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered as one on its own.

Beyond that you aren't really arguing anything. You're just stating things that would benefit your character. Giving haste to everyone doesn't benefit me or bring me down. It doesn't grant immunities to entire spell schools or epic feats as your sarcastic suggestion would. It equalizes characters and speeds up game play.



Are you trying to make me believe that you use heal potions in PvE, playing the same con-based risen lord for ten years?
As for me: Two wizards (1st necromancy, 2nd abjuration/divination). Two clerics (1st melee blackguard, 2nd evocation). A barbarian. A monk. A risen lord shifter. Latest is a bard/knight commander. I never made it a habit to use heal potions on any of them. Haste + improved invisibility and nothing is going to burst you. If you're popping heal potions after allowing your health to dwindle into double digits rather than using heal kits every once in a while you're wasting money. But apparently you think gold sinks are a part of game balance so I'll surrender that to you and your risen lord that somehow gains health from heal.

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I don't know a single PC, except you (apparently), who don't use Heal pots in PvM. I use it literally everyday. Fighting Windy, fighting Snowbeast.. Gold hunting.. PCs who are leveling can use a stack of Heal Pots at about level 15-16 (When they're usable and not so expensive.)

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So it's that time of the year to debate mythal crafting and DC items then? May as well throw in my unpopular opinion:

If people arn't stacking feats for AC or AB they're finding items with Battletide, skills like Tumble and more. There's no choice to those items, you get item AB/AC or you die.

+3 Regen boots & +5 AC +3 Dex boots for example.
Are those two items deservingly equal in the mythal system?

Items ingame consistantly breach the possibilities of mythals, perhaps we need to take an objective look at what items are unfair and what is not.

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You will likely not see me as:

Fymor Trueshot

My only hopes are:
Elemental resistance can be added as an option
Vamp regen can be added to gloves

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I'm done. Goodbye.

My changes aren't designed to further extend the power of gear past what they already are, there designed to bring non-epic gear a step or two closer to epic gear to diminish the stat gap between epic and non epic gear pc's. The Mythal system whether it remain as it is or be buffed to my proposed level still will not be able to compete with epic gear, or even some store bought gear (Shield of the Triad, Fortification cloaks, Giant belts, etc...)


Epic boots 5AC 3stat = 5 powers vs Mythalled boots 5AC 1stat or 4AC 2stat
Epic Amulet 5AC 2regen = 5powers vs Mythalled Amulet 4AC 1regen
Stone Giant Belt 6stat = 6 powers vs Mythalled belt 3stat

Energon helm 3stat 5conc. 4powers vs Mythalled helm 3stat
+3uni. save ring 4powers vs Mythalled ring 2uni saves vs Cheesey Mythalled Ring 3reflex/3will/3fort

Theres plenty of other examples you could throw up there. Just ask yourself really, how many people use the Mythal system except on touching up Rings, Gloves and Weapons? Because really, Epic gear blows it out of the water (even if some of it does need the occasional touch up just to get stats not otherwise obtainable from the Mythal system), or store/normal loot bin gear that already exceeds the Mythal limit by 1-3 powers, preventing you from reasonably using the Mythal system on it.

If you really want I could show you the difference between an epic geared, store bought and pure mythalled fighter. The difference would be pretty astoninshing

The mythal system is there to supplement and tweak the storebought and found gear to your liking, not replace it entirely. Of course there'll be a difference.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

For me it would just be nice to put skill points onto bows. Guess i use the system different to everyone else as i find it nice to be able to enchant the odd bow that i feel i want to when gifting them IC... but what you can place on them is rather limited i find. When i made Talas's bow it would have been nice to actually be able to put some perform skill onto it so that it lived up to its name as Muse. I'm curious actually how it works if i ICly make the bow, mythal it myself BUT want to add skills to it... which would be a DC payment i assume right, as it stands now even if the bulk of the work is done in game?

I only have two altered items and they are my bow, blade thirst means i can load the bow with stat increase after removing the ab, and my shield.... which is only +4 ac. Beyond that i actually struggle to know what is and isn't acceptable.

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When it rains, look for rainbows.
When it's dark, look for stars.

About 5 years ago the system was discussed and getting worked on.

The only things id really like to see changed, or did, was skill points on weapons, being able to add spell slots to weapons. Pretty much everything in the "Equippable Items" table being able to apply to the Weapons and Bows. Divine Mythals could also use a bit of work, as id been saving one i got a life time ago for the day they would do something useful for casters.

Eventually though i figured the system is more of a guide line, you can do more then what it shows, you just have to request it so there are no crazy results.

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House Auvrea'Kan Crafts and Services is now open and prepared to discuss orders.

The best suggestion I see here is allowing for enhancement on gloves for unarmed monks. It's the only melee option that doesn't allow for mythal enhancement. It's an exception without a reason.

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Chaggo - Colorful Hobgoblin Monk
Baegrevele Tsjos - Borne at sea, Live at sea, Die at sea.

Haven't really formulated anything regarding the rest of the topic, but the idea for giving unarmed monks a few more slots is pretty simple.

Enchantment/AB and Damage increase no longer take up slots on gloves.

What this translates to is unarmed monks gaining two slots. Neither property means anything to anyone else, including kama or staff monks; you do not benefit from them while wielding a weapon.

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