I see many threads lately on the subject of balancing. Whether it is the mythal system, or the classes, or complaints about certain feats, they all seem to pass beside what I believe is the source of all these complaints. Here's a thread about what I believe are the two real problems - with an heavy emphasis on pve, but not limited to.
1 ) Casters and Buffs
Buffs are too powerful and last too long - that is a problem tied to Neverwinter Nights, but the creatures of Amia being the way they are (they were created with these buffs in mind) makes it so we are pretty forced to go with buffs for the later dungeons. This would be okay in itself, but the problem is the ones casting the buffs can actually go anywhere they want by themselves -because- of said buffs and other ultimate powers. For example (which may not be relevant anymore?!) - Beholders, creatures that are specifically designed to destroy casters... can be soloed by a level 17 sorcerer/wizard using one single spell.
In fact, I think Casters in general are just plain ridiculous by design. In table top, resting / low level campaigns will balance the casters and limit them (heck, some hardcore DMs might even ask you to find ingredients to cast stuff!... then everyone goes dwarf ). There is very little that could be done to fix this, and Amia is passed the point where it doesn't matter much, but I still felt like it was worth giving them a mention.
Clearly though, the focus of that thread is the following point:
2 ) Shields
Shields, to me, are the source of quite a lot of complaints and problems - but few people seem to realize it. Allow me to explain.
What are shields exactly? They are a free +6 to +8 AC at no cost, no penalty whatsoever, to -any- character other than a monk (and a dedicated arcane archer?). It also is unique type of AC, making it extremely desirable.
Why is that a problem? It is a problem because +8 to AC is infinitely better than going dual wield or two-handed, leading to a sad realisation that diversity is done so at the cost of survival. Every fighter is using a shield. Every caster is using a shield. Every dual wield and two-handed characters (!?) are using a shield...
This can't be that bad? I would say it is safe to assume that probably 90% of all main characters ever created on Amia wield a shield or has one in reserve in case. Even casters are walking around with 100% spell failure reduction shields (and armors..). HECK, even characters using two-handed weapons are using shields!...
Relation to mythal system discussion? There were suggestions to lower the cost of certain mythallable bonuses. While I agree that there should be changes made to some, I do not agree with the numbers that were given (I won't go into details, but for example, while I think 4 cost is too much for +5 enhancement, I think 1 cost would be ridiculous too).
However, a shield gaining a bonus +4 armor for 1 cost? A shield gaining a bonus +5 armor for 2? That is ridiculous. Wasn't a free +3 base AC not enough?
Relation to complaints about epic dodge? Epic dodge is a -great- feat, but when does it become more than "great" and becomes a source for complaints? It does when people associate epic dodge with weapon master dexers. Weapon master covers the dexers' problem (damage) by giving them good crits, and epic dodge becomes insanely good because of high AC given by the build. High AC characters with epic dodge aren't "that" bad on other servers (different items, different level cap), but here we get to a point where AB does not suffice to hit high AC epic dodgers. So people complain!.. about epic dodge.
Shields? That's a +8 free AC that cannot be removed. You need 8 pre-epic levels of a full BAB class to just to be even with that +8 AC bonus, and they get that at no penalty.
If you give epic dodge to a character with 20 AC, I can assure you that character will not survive long. If you give +8 AC to that same character, it is clear that character will survive longer!.. though probably not long enough
The difference between the first and second attack is 5 AB. A tower shield gives 3 more AC than that. If you strip everything down, this effectively makes wielding a tower shield more valuable than having epic dodge. Epic dodge, however, has requirements - it takes specific classes, and it costs feats.
Dex and shield. Why is it that you destroy your build if you wear a fullplate as a dexer? Because if you wear clothes, you will get much higher AC than what the plate offers. AC is valuable. However, why can you freely walk around with a giant shield on your arm at no other cost to your character than minimal damage dealing potential? More on that in the last paragraph.
Sword and board Vs. other conventional melee. The way I see it, shield users are supposed to be more defensive/tank oriented fighters. Two-handed users are supposed to be the damage dealers that make their attacks count. Dual wields are also supposed to be damage dealers, but they do so at a lower AB than two-handed weapon users and through several attacks rather than one big swing (they make better use of feats like sneak attack too). This relation SORTA work (to a point) in pve, but when pvp comes about? Nothing hits the shield user, no damage is ever dealt to them, and the difference in damage they deal and the damage that others deal is minimal by game design. That is because there is no penalty to wearing a shield, and the bonus it gives (+8) overshadows every other type of melee fighting configuration. Some feats also become exponentially great because of that AC (epic dodge is the prime example).
Shield vs shield! Why are there small shields, medium shields and tower shields again? Picking the feat lets you wear all three types, so why bother (powergaming-speaking) going for the small shield rather than tower shield? I went small shield with Saya because it's the only blue shield model in the game - greatest powergaming decision ever of course
Complaining complaining, but no solution!? There are solutions, and they won't be popular. I also don't expect any of those will pass, so let's all relax and just use the whole as a basis for discussion ^^
1 - I think shields should never be allowed to get further bonuses to AC or at the very least, not as high as +5. A simple +1 / +2 / +3 is pretty significant already. Armor Skin is an epic feat that gives 2 AC, and honestly, I find it hard not to get it on pretty much any of my characters. That is such an amazing feat!.. +3? That'd be great still! Plus 8 though? That's just overkill.
Shields could then focus on giving other kind of bonuses, different ones depending on their size perhaps?
2 - Two-weapon defense and improved two-weapon defense could be requestable feats. We have monkey grip (I hate that thing, to be honest), so why not have two-weapon defense and improved two-weapon defense? For those not familiar with these, it is basically a +1 and +2 to AC respectively, when using dual wields. This would cost you 1 feat each and would be -very easy to implement, without script or any sort of scripting. You would only need to take useless feats (skill focus parry?) and to have the staff to create an off-hand weapon that would have a +6 or +7 deflection AC bonus on it (all the while making sure said character always wear an item that gives +5 deflection armor).
3 - Wearing a shield could give penalty to AB, and or penalty to movement. This would require scripting, however... but would at least make it so that shields come with a weakness. A real downside. This would also allow for variety between shields themselves!.. Rather than have all shield users go with tower shield, some players might decide to pick a small shield so that they lose (example) -1 to AB instead of -3 AB.
4 - Shields could have less mythal slots available on them depending on their size. A tower shield could have 1 mythal slot, a medium shield would have 2, and a small shield would have 3. This wouldn't fix the major problem shield have (too much AC), but I suppose it could make some question their item build and want to try something different.. then again, I would still pick shields even if they gave nothing else than AC because it is exactly what makes them valuable to begin with (and +7 AC would be insane still).
The other major problem that shields have on Amia.. is that since mostly everyone's wearing a shield, changing them would cause the entire server to have to change their characters' itemization, as well as having all the items in shop needed to be changed.. and that's the saddest truth there is.
Discuss away! And yes, I know this won't be a very popular opinion I have, but hey, it's a discussion worth having regardless, especially since it is the mother of most balancing threads.
Shields aren't a problem. The problem is that the alternatives are bad. With a shield and a weapon, you get 7 power slots. With two-handed weapons you get 5 slots. A power deficit on top of losing 8 AC, for an extra 6 or 7 damage, isn't worth it.
The solution is pretty easy. Add an extra power slot to two-handed weapons, and allow that slot to be used to get damage. Then, create a Bracer item with the +5 shield AC property on it (can easily do this as the properties are already in the module). There you go, you lose 1 power and 3 AC, for a limited itemization pool and a significant boost to damage, but you won't get absolutely blown out anymore. (Try not to make a brain dead response about monkey grip as it would obviously be adjusted.)
As for dual wielding, that is only relevant to kama monk builds as other dexers can easily just swap to a shield. Monks just need some love at the moment.
*1* Shields aren't a problem. The problem is that the alternatives are bad. With a shield and a weapon, you get 7 power slots. With two-handed weapons you get 5 slots. A power deficit on top of losing 8 AC, for an extra 6 or 7 damage, isn't worth it.
*2* The solution is pretty easy. Add an extra power slot to two-handed weapons, and allow that slot to be used to get damage. Then, create a Bracer item with the +5 shield AC property on it (can easily do this as the properties are already in the module). There you go, you lose 1 power and 3 AC, for a limited itemization pool and a significant boost to damage, but you won't get absolutely blown out anymore. (Try not to make a brain dead response about monkey grip as it would obviously be adjusted.)
*3* As for dual wielding, that is only relevant to kama monk builds as other dexers can easily just swap to a shield. Monks just need some love at the moment.
1) If I compare dual wield to two-handed weapon users, I don't see them as that different from each others powerwise. I don't think they are not viable either. If every other type of fighting needs to be changed to be as good as shields, I think shields themselves are problematic There shouldn't be a "losing AC", as that AC shouldn't be an automatic no-brainer to begin with. That's how I see it ^^
2) That would be an okay solution, but I don't think you can have +shield armor on any other type of items than shields. It is an exclusive type of AC, unless they fiddled with scripting / hacking. Again though, when you say "losing 3 AC", you assume that shield AC is just an automatic thing we get. It shouldn't be.
3) Any character except monk will switch to a shield, so dual wield is fine and shield isn't broken? Pure monks are indeed not very great, and I think one of the major reason for that is that they do not have uncanny dodge unless they delve into other classes. But monks are definately worthy of a discussion by themselves, and in that discussion, I'd probably be bringing the problem that they have low AB and that a way this could be fixed is by nerfing shields' bonus AC
For example - Beholders, creatures that are specifically designed to destroy casters... can be soloed by a level 17 sorcerer/wizard using one single spell.
I'd not wanted to disappoint you, but it was fixed like... year ago already, if not more. I specifically checked it today, if I missed something, but BBD is being dispelled on sight literally with antimagic gaze of beholders, so it is not a thing anymore. And only shifters still can do good against beholders these days.
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Shields aren't a problem. The problem is that the alternatives are bad. With a shield and a weapon, you get 7 power slots. With two-handed weapons you get 5 slots. A power deficit on top of losing 8 AC, for an extra 6 or 7 damage, isn't worth it.
The solution is pretty easy. Add an extra power slot to two-handed weapons, and allow that slot to be used to get damage. Then, create a Bracer item with the +5 shield AC property on it (can easily do this as the properties are already in the module). There you go, you lose 1 power and 3 AC, for a limited itemization pool and a significant boost to damage, but you won't get absolutely blown out anymore. (Try not to make a brain dead response about monkey grip as it would obviously be adjusted.)
As for dual wielding, that is only relevant to kama monk builds as other dexers can easily just swap to a shield. Monks just need some love at the moment.
Bracers will only let you do Deflection or Armor AC, or what it's worth here, but other than that, not bad ideas, and correct logic - shields are fine, it's that specifically unarmed is really really bad, and 2-handing is good-but-still-rough.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
For example - Beholders, creatures that are specifically designed to destroy casters... can be soloed by a level 17 sorcerer/wizard using one single spell.
I'd not wanted to disappoint you, but it was fixed like... year ago already, if not more. I specifically checked it today, if I missed something, but BBD is being dispelled on sight literally with antimagic gaze of beholders, so it is not a thing anymore. And only shifters still can do good against beholders these days.
Actually I'm super glad to hear that - if it is true. Are you sure a high level caster cannot simply go with a near undispellable blade of disaster anymore? I remember the beholders used to try to dispel the blade, but it wasn't automatic, and it often failed. Silverstone / Lithorn made that dungeon a joke back then (they're the 2 mages I was around the most) and would just have to recast the blade whenever it was dispelled.
Shields aren't a problem. The problem is that the alternatives are bad. With a shield and a weapon, you get 7 power slots. With two-handed weapons you get 5 slots. A power deficit on top of losing 8 AC, for an extra 6 or 7 damage, isn't worth it.
The solution is pretty easy. Add an extra power slot to two-handed weapons, and allow that slot to be used to get damage. Then, create a Bracer item with the +5 shield AC property on it (can easily do this as the properties are already in the module). There you go, you lose 1 power and 3 AC, for a limited itemization pool and a significant boost to damage, but you won't get absolutely blown out anymore. (Try not to make a brain dead response about monkey grip as it would obviously be adjusted.)
As for dual wielding, that is only relevant to kama monk builds as other dexers can easily just swap to a shield. Monks just need some love at the moment.
Bracers will only let you do Deflection or Armor AC, or what it's worth here, but other than that, not bad ideas, and correct logic - shields are fine, it's that specifically unarmed is really really bad, and 2-handing is good-but-still-rough.
I was under the impression the CEP item properties were added to Amia from our talk about enhancement bonuses on gloves.
Tower shields get that one bonus AC but at three costs:
1) You can't use one if you're a small race. 2) They are quite weighty so it dissuades a dedicated dexer from using them. 3) Unless you have one that removes the ASF penalty (which was removed from tower shields as I understand it) good luck casting with one.
Another thing you're neglecting is a feat that doesn't get a whole lot of love and that's Disarm and its improved cousin. Yes this is harder to use in PVP against someone that knows what they're doing but all other things being equal someone with a large weapon is going to have a field day against someone with a tiny one.
Tower shields get that one bonus AC but at three costs:
1) You can't use one if you're a small race. 2) They are quite weighty so it dissuades a dedicated dexer from using them. 3) Unless you have one that removes the ASF penalty (which was removed from tower shields as I understand it) good luck casting with one.
Another thing you're neglecting is a feat that doesn't get a whole lot of love and that's Disarm and its improved cousin. Yes this is harder to use in PVP against someone that knows what they're doing but all other things being equal someone with a large weapon is going to have a field day against someone with a tiny one.
1) So you have 7 AC with a medium shield instead of 8.. (That's still too high, like 4 points too high) 2) I don't think the item weight has ever stopped someone from going for shields. We wouldn't have this many shield users on the server if that were the case. 3) Except unlike armors, you can simply remove the shield and cast, then re-equip the shield. Armors can't be de-equipped while fighting. As for ASF penalty... if it is still on medium or small shields, that is still 6 or 7 AC..
I am not really neglecting "Disarm", I just think it is a non-factor. People complain about certain builds (weapon master dex epic dodge.. most likely with a shield in hand) because they can't -hit- these characters. The max AB you can reach on the server is not high enough compared to how high AC can go (and shields are factoring for 8 of that AC...).
Let's assume the best case scenario of a two-handed character using improved disarm on a character using a kukri. You get -4 for using improved disarm, then they gain +8 (?), for an effective gain of +4 to AB. That is great, because AB is very much needed.
Scenario two is however more likely to happen; a two-handed weapon uses improved disarm on a scimitar/rapier + shield. The two-handed gain a total of +0 to AB (but at least they get a disarm attempt in!)
Finally, scenario three, the one that's pretty much happening on Amia. You have two shield + scimitar / rapier battling each others, only hitting themselves when they get a 20 on their AB ... or you have a character with monkey grip -- because most if not all 2handers are trying to get monkey grip for the ludicrous AC bonus of a tower shield ^^
There are no ---Real--- downsides to using shields as they are currently; the gains are simply too massive. I mean, it doesn't even give a penalty to some skill checks (and that would be a non-factor too).
Shields aren't a problem. The problem is that the alternatives are bad. With a shield and a weapon, you get 7 power slots. With two-handed weapons you get 5 slots. A power deficit on top of losing 8 AC, for an extra 6 or 7 damage, isn't worth it.
The solution is pretty easy. Add an extra power slot to two-handed weapons, and allow that slot to be used to get damage. Then, create a Bracer item with the +5 shield AC property on it (can easily do this as the properties are already in the module). There you go, you lose 1 power and 3 AC, for a limited itemization pool and a significant boost to damage, but you won't get absolutely blown out anymore. (Try not to make a brain dead response about monkey grip as it would obviously be adjusted.)
As for dual wielding, that is only relevant to kama monk builds as other dexers can easily just swap to a shield. Monks just need some love at the moment.
Bracers will only let you do Deflection or Armor AC, or what it's worth here, but other than that, not bad ideas, and correct logic - shields are fine, it's that specifically unarmed is really really bad, and 2-handing is good-but-still-rough.
I was under the impression the CEP item properties were added to Amia from our talk about enhancement bonuses on gloves.
No, I just checked. Only Armor for Bracers, and Deflection for gauntlets/gloves, unfortunately.
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Perhaps if Tumble counted armour penalty instead of how many times you ranked the skill up five times? Then again you'd swap to large shields and +Tumble would be meta so nothing would get fixed.
I will state that two-weapon-fighting was the largest mistake I've made in character building, ESPECIALLY anything involving Twin Swords or Twin Axes.
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Quote:
No, I just checked. Only Armor for Bracers, and Deflection for gauntlets/gloves, unfortunately.
I'm pretty sure you can modify stuff like that directly through Baseitems.2da, but updating it for the server would require a hak update.
NWNWiki re: Baseitems.2da wrote:
AC_Enchant: The type of armor class bonus granted, if this item grants one. 0 = dodge; 1 = natural; 2 = armor; 3 = shield; 4 = deflection.
As far as the topic, as with most things that involve not only builds but module design, I say balance by addition where possible. Doing sweeping things like removing AC from shields will have effects that are much wider than shoring up the divide between sword-n-board and other set ups. It effects most dungeons and bosses as well(if you thought melee tanking was a tough job before, just wait until your shield counts as much as a wet paper bag).
Like Akhlys said, the issue isn't shield are too good, it's that other options suck in a world where AC is king. There have been several suggestions to make other options worth it over the years, such as Parry functioning as a sort of skill-to-AC deal when wielding a weapon without a shield, to that plus parry giving concealment(something that is unique because it is otherwise unattainable for most pure melee builds), to two-handed weapons doing splash damage to make up for the fact you are more offensive focused rather than defense focused. The options and reasons are out there, and they all stand to address the differences between shield playstyles and other playstyles in ways a lot more fun, effective, and easy than gutting how shields function in the game.
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Mushidoz wrote:
2) I don't think the item weight has ever stopped someone from going for shields. We wouldn't have this many shield users on the server if that were the case.
While i dislike snipping quotes *puts up hand* actually i went with a large shield over a tower shield because of weight, i even went as far as asking round ICly for one which was made to reduce weight and was gifted one by a friendly elf! I still use that shield today even while i have two tower shields. I picked one up as a drop and it seemed interesting but i've never used it, the other was a gift while taking part in a DM event to be better protected against undead... i mainly don't use them as the weight cripples me and i have to switch round too much gear to be able to run, that is both an IC and OOC choice for my character!
My large shield is +4, i could probably squeeze something else onto it but... ICly never saw the point as its just a shield. Weight issue aside i also prefer the visual of the wooden shield with metal banding, suits my character more. Add to this i'm dex based and a two weapon user. I tend to use rapier and shield though nearly always go with either the raper/short sword or twin short swords... if in melee combat. I try and avoid too much out right switching in combat because it does seem a tad cheesy at times to do it.
As for shields making you less mobile, i can understand tower shields might do so but we are in a setting where i can carry four longbows... somewhere on my person with room to carry more. NWN isn't a straight copy of the real world, its a slice of fantasy and i enjoy my break from the real when i can get it so i can face of against fire giants with my thin sword and... wooden shield!
I once saw two guys, in real life, fight with swords while quoting Shakespeare which was seriously cool to see. One fought with rapier and dagger while the other had rapier and something affectionately referred to as a punch shield... and they never slowed for blows. It seems some of Shakespeares scenes were written with combat in mind, the words used actually depicting that combat. They explained that while the rapier and dagger were quicker and landed more blows, the shield and rapier allowed for greater accuracy while deflecting. This addition probably and likely has no bearing but it was cool to witness but i just wanted to say that my choice of shield IS down to weight restriction and my trade off is lower AC for it, 2 or 3 points i think i'm not sure on the numbers.
My parting piece will be that much of what i have read here seems to quote PvP, the remarks made suggest two characters stuck in eternal struggle as they fight because they both hold shields... i don't PvP and weakening my shield would cripple me in PvE melee when it comes my way, unless i start getting this buff and that buff from wands and scrolls which would require a rebuild to include rogue or even bard to take advantage of UMD, certainly for me my shield isn't over powered and is at times a life saver rather than a game changer.
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Not a fan of any of this. The server is balanced for the way things are now and these changes would just make "average" builds fairly unplayable by nerfing their AC more.
As far as buff duration, it's fine. If I wanted to have to rest every 6 minutes just to cast epic level bull's strength every other fight, I'd go back to playing that joyless smudge that is Ravenloft.
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1A. I really disagree with the very first point. Firstly, I believe the duration of our enchantments are suitable. The duration is based off your CL in said class. Reduction of duration for spells for casters would basically cripple them, imo.
1B. I highly disagree that the way our buffs are, we can go literally /anywhere/ we want. Just because their buffs have a long duration / potent effect / affect (Depends on what type of spell), doesn't mean they've the ability to hunt anywhere. For example, I don't know that many PCs who have the ability to Solo the Abyss. Sure, they can kill Windy. But usually it takes a group to handle the most difficult area on Amia.
1C. As for (1B), it's a pretty big deal for leveling characters to use the Abyss / Beholders, because they offer some of the best XP for hunting. I can guarantee you very few, if any PCs, can solo either area. You'd need to specifically design a build to hunt either area. (ie / a Monk for Beholders).
- I'm really not a fan of changing the AC offered from Shield (Small, Medium, Large).
Dex and Shield, you mentioned. You "destroy your build" as a dexter in fullplate because it's plain and simple. You reduce your ability to move in Heavy Plate, thus your AC is reduced. It makes no RP sense for a "docile" Dexter to put on Heavy Plate armor and have Heavy Plate AC.
Two-Weapon Defense / Improved two-weapon defense as requested? Simple. Scripting new stuff isn't a priority for the server, I believe.
I play a Dex Based Dual Wielder, not Weapon master based... but still. He is fairly high AC without the shield, but never leaves home without his tower shield, as the original post is right. That +8 AC is simply massive, and in a situation where I am being hit on a regular basis and cannot damage cannon with the sneak attack; damn right I am going to swap around.
I think some of it comes down to game limitations. If it were possible to put Shield AC on weapons, Dual Wielders would be able to have a main-gauche, parrying dagger, punching buckler etc, which would give them a modicum of AC, as well as still offensive capability. However... as far as I am aware... with the limitations in the system, that would require custom scripting and/or may be impossible due to hard coding.
Feats may be a possibility, but they would have to be somewhat good to overcome the gap.
walnutboy wrote:
As for shields making you less mobile, i can understand tower shields might do so but we are in a setting where i can carry four longbows... somewhere on my person with room to carry more. NWN isn't a straight copy of the real world, its a slice of fantasy and i enjoy my break from the real when i can get it so i can face of against fire giants with my thin sword and... wooden shield!
I don't think they should slow down dexers, ever. There are accounts of Ancient Warriors (Spanish Scutarii, Gallic warriors, etc) who went into battle without armour because it would slow them down and they preferred to trust to "Natural Agility" But still sent into battle with shields which the Tower Shields are more or less based upon.
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The problem with shields in all versions of D&D is not the shield itself but the whole entire armour class system which rolls the ability not to be hit and the negation of hits into one number and shields factor into this number in a very simplistic way, this is the core of D&D combat and always has been and its by design.
If one wanted to "balance" shields and for that matter casters you would need to redo the entire skill system which although impossible is highly desirable and introduce spell components AND remove magic bags or at least limit them to one per character.
Rewrite the skill system - In melee combat a shield is a tool for parrying attacks, but in NWN/D&D the parry skill is useless in part because of the general skill system and because of the way it limits offence which is counter intuitive given that even the huge Roman tower shields were used as part of their offensive drills as much as it was a tool of defence.
In general the skill system is completely broken both in basic concept and in NWN specifically to allow "skill dumps" the idea that some classes who might be ICly highly educated in whatever passes for formal education of the setting getting 2 skill points per level versus an illiterate guttersnipe breadnapper getting 8 per level is clearly flawed and merely seeks to rehash the 2nd ed rules around proficiency and rogue skills.
Shields and spell failure - No shield should have ASF removed and in fact I would go one further and say that any spell cast whilst equipping a shield is auto fail and the spell wasted regardless of metamagic feats. D&D is about classes having niches and supposedly about each niche having to come together to form a whole greater than the sum of its parts. Those wielding magic should have to rely on that magic for their defence or else employ fighter types as guards as intended, and not to be able to stomping around in ASF armour and shield AND buffing like a god to boot.
I guess there is no way to implement spell components but I add these comments to fill out my thinking alongside the points above, Magic bags should be either removed entirely or limited to one per character, with valuables placed in the bank as intended and if characters want to hoard infinite items they should have to pay for the ever increasingly expensive bank slots to do so. As to why the bags should be removed/1 only is to bring back some element of common sense to our backpacks and if spell components were a thing then casters would need to be selective in what they bring and in what quantity and less profligate with their magics as well.
Its all very well Amia being "high magic" but its become pedestrian and banal with every one and their dog having to have UMD just to have a chance to survive in a world stacked to casters, or else have a pet caster with an trilithium spell replicator up their arse (sorry watching Star Trek reruns...) I don't think bland nerfing of shields solves any of this and just further harms those who can afford it least.
As for epic dodge, that feat is broken in many ways but the key one it seems to me is that its infallible and has no counter "epic attack" feat as evidence of this fact I refer the read to the epic dodge dagger builds with something like 80 AC that is all but indestructible absent a high level mage with epic spells (which isn't really a valid counter argument as there is nothing they cant kill)
I'd like to see epic dodge removed entirely or else introduce a comparable feat "epic attack" rendering an auto hit versus non-epic dodge and where it cancels out the epic dodge leaving the remaining attacks to be dealt with normally. I know neither will happen but again just saying for the benefit of the narrative.
No I'm afraid that any attempt to "balance by nerf" on shields is just going to push those who can least afford it down the tier rankings even further, and as its unlikely that the entire armour and to hit system is going to be rewritten I don't see a solution to the perceived problem the OP mentions, which I have to say in some eight plus years on this server I have never heard mentioned in game.
:arrow: As for epic dodge, that feat is broken in many ways but the key one it seems to me is that its infallible and has no counter "epic attack" feat as evidence of this fact I refer the read to the epic dodge dagger builds with something like 80 AC that is all but indestructible absent a high level mage with epic spells (which isn't really a valid counter argument as there is nothing they cant kill)
Dev crit is an epic attack.
ED also caps out at 60ish ac, a little higher if you're a SD, you can push it more with imp expertise and haste and whatnot, but so can pretty much anyone. This is also the same AC point RDD's now sit at.
Epic dodge builds, aside from 13/10/7, also don't do all that much damage, so the fights go long, and the odds your opponent will just roll a string of 20's and kill you increases.
ED can also be pretty much negated with magic/knockdown effects/other things, which you should use instead of just rightclick and wait.
Its an epic feat, its hardly an epic attack and its only function is to apply crowd control and only if a saving throw its easy to stack for is failed.
Epic dodge gives an automatic effect that can't be countered, it is hardly comparable to dev crit.
Commie wrote:
ED also caps out at 60ish ac, a little higher if you're a SD, you can push it more with imp expertise and haste and whatnot, but so can pretty much anyone.
Come on Commie you know full well its not the AC that is the issue here, anyone who can read the wiki and do basic maths can work out the exact maximums of AC on Amia, its the fact that epic dodge is a "force multiplier" that cannot be countered that is the problem.
If two combatants have similar AB and similar AC where they are both relying on their first attack to have any reasonable probability to hit and 20s for the remaining then the combatant who can with impunity ignore the first attack has a massive advantage that someone better at math can calculate.
Commie wrote:
Epic dodge builds, aside from 13/10/7, also don't do all that much damage, so the fights go long, and the odds your opponent will just roll a string of 20's and kill you increases.
You are sort of arguing my point here, epic dodge makes the fights long, it wants the long fights where its weapon master crits can easily whittle down the enemy whilst being essentially immune to incoming attacks.
The argument that its not a broken feat because its techinically possible to roll a string of 20s is disingenuous and you know it.
Commie wrote:
ED can also be pretty much negated with magic/knockdown effects/other things, which you should use instead of just rightclick and wait.
Mundane KD are usually vs reflex, ED is a dex build. Enough said.
Magic KD, well if you have some sort of magic KD you probably have epic ruin and that pretty much solves every problem so doesn't really add any validity to the ED case.
The closest I have come to fighting a ED build to a mere draw was a 25/5 bard/kc fully geared and buffed, and even taunt, spell song buff, curse song and barricade of swords could barely get the guy to "injured" before my defeat.
I've also leveled with people using the ED build and even leveling was piss easy for them and were they were soon tanking for the party in a way the high str and con barbarian couldn't and that was pre ED. But thats a commentary on the dex bias standard of Amia more than ED itself I guess.
Its an epic feat, its hardly an epic attack and its only function is to apply crowd control and only if a saving throw its easy to stack for is failed.
Epic dodge gives an automatic effect that can't be countered, it is hardly comparable to dev crit.
Commie wrote:
ED also caps out at 60ish ac, a little higher if you're a SD, you can push it more with imp expertise and haste and whatnot, but so can pretty much anyone.
Come on Commie you know full well its not the AC that is the issue here, anyone who can read the wiki and do basic maths can work out the exact maximums of AC on Amia, its the fact that epic dodge is a "force multiplier" that cannot be countered that is the problem.
If two combatants have similar AB and similar AC where they are both relying on their first attack to have any reasonable probability to hit and 20s for the remaining then the combatant who can with impunity ignore the first attack has a massive advantage that someone better at math can calculate.
Commie wrote:
Epic dodge builds, aside from 13/10/7, also don't do all that much damage, so the fights go long, and the odds your opponent will just roll a string of 20's and kill you increases.
You are sort of arguing my point here, epic dodge makes the fights long, it wants the long fights where its weapon master crits can easily whittle down the enemy whilst being essentially immune to incoming attacks.
The argument that its not a broken feat because its techinically possible to roll a string of 20s is disingenuous and you know it.
Commie wrote:
ED can also be pretty much negated with magic/knockdown effects/other things, which you should use instead of just rightclick and wait.
Mundane KD are usually vs reflex, ED is a dex build. Enough said.
Magic KD, well if you have some sort of magic KD you probably have epic ruin and that pretty much solves every problem so doesn't really add any validity to the ED case.
The closest I have come to fighting a ED build to a mere draw was a 25/5 bard/kc fully geared and buffed, and even taunt, spell song buff, curse song and barricade of swords could barely get the guy to "injured" before my defeat.
I've also leveled with people using the ED build and even leveling was piss easy for them and were they were soon tanking for the party in a way the high str and con barbarian couldn't and that was pre ED. But thats a commentary on the dex bias standard of Amia more than ED itself I guess.
I think 13/10/7 is the best build in the game, no argument from me there. But I also don't think ED is, by itself, this absurd thing as you claim. In my tier list I have 2 builds above ED builds that are not ED builds themselves.
Remember someone with ED is still going to have bad strength, believe it or not there are common effects you can get that will roll your strength vs their strength, and let you win easily. ED people also tend to have trouble with grapples, and there are grapple effects in the game. So use them.
Mundane KD is vs Discipline (strength skill, but with +30 discipline gloves anyone can get to 63+) Magical KD tends to be vs reflex
just to correct it.
Pretty much what I said in reply to Commie, but he said "KD effects" so it wasn't just the KD feat which indeed is against discipline and which needs to hit in order to take effect and so ED still applies, there are KD like effects and abilities are usually against a saving throw and that saving throw is usually reflex.
Just to correct your correction.
Commie wrote:
But I also don't think ED is, by itself, this absurd thing as you claim.
I don't claim ED is broken, I flat out state it and have tried to explain the facts behind that, its broke because it has no counter, its broke because of its force multiplication which is not countered by disingenuous arguments about stupid builds with ED that don't work given that any sensible build with ED is virtually indestructible. This fact is not countered by holding up caster builds that can destroy anyone as if it was a specific weakness only faced by ED builds.
Thats my point.
Commie wrote:
Remember someone with ED is still going to have bad strength, believe it or not there are common effects you can get that will roll your strength vs their strength, and let you win easily. ED people also tend to have trouble with grapples, and there are grapple effects in the game. So use them.
Use the tools available to you.
Strength isn't relevant to a dex based weapon master using a dagger and ignoring the only attack that has a better than 5% chance to hit, and I am not sure of the top of my head what the probability is of rolling a 20 followed by a 20 but that is not really going to cut it versus those dex based weapon master crits coming in regularly at 100+ damage.
Also most "grapple" like attacks require a touch attack which even if it is not negated by the epic dodge via the "avoids the first attack each round." text of the feat will still have to over come 70-80 AC, because thats what you are going to face in reality with expertise or improved expertise and haste AND then assuming you hit you then have to make an opposed skill roll or saving throw which is something easily geared for.
P.S. I do realise that all my chatter is academic as there is no way such a feat is going to removed from Amia, as it has been removed from so many other RP servers (along with dev crit incidently..)
Touch AC is not going to be 70-80. Period. FULL AC is not going to be that high.
Feat based Knock down goes against full AC in the first instance and then discipline and that is the particular form of KD I have easy access to on my melee characters at this time so touch AC is irrelevant.
TormakSaber wrote:
Please learn the game mechanics before you made incorrect posts about how core game mechanics function.
As per my above reply really, but furthermore I have been playing NWN since its release and on this server for about 7 years so whilst I can't claim to be able to recite the wiki backwards whilst balancing on my head I can speak to direct experience of those mechanics in action which is not always the same as being able to quote and misquote theory in some self serving and often improbably anecdote, which is often the case when discussing things here.
But thank you for the fuck you attitude and the reductio ad absurdum vis-a-vis RL character assassination ,..#reasonswhypeopleleave
TormakSaber wrote:
Not to mention, any spell cast on someone actively not in combat i.e. not already swinging at you, is going off their flatfooted AC.
Power/PVP builders are most often the instigators of combat, and in any case I was speaking from the point of view of a melee character as its already understood that casters can nuke anyone including ED builds.
Please learn to read the entire post/s and contexts therein before making incorrect assumptions with or without malice and forethought in order to strike a blow at the poster not the post.
I'm genuinely saddened that even after a long break of several years from Amia I come back to find that even in its low pop state there are still individuals who can spoil a perfectly civil forum talk fatuous one liners.
But on the brighter side of this now thoroughly derailed thread, TormakSaber you have reminded me that its all well and good to play on Amia, just as long as you don't use the forums.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Don't be too hard on Tormy. He's an alpha male, and they are known for being fiercely protective of their bitches.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Touch Ac is incredibly relevant to every spell that uses touch attacks, which is a great deal of things including some instant deaths.
Grapple checks are involved in the Bigby Hands with end encounters entirely.
I corrected you because when people talk about mechanics incorrectly on the forums, weird rumors and tales start, like the big rumor that Called Shot bypassed epic Dodge, leading people to make room for it on their builds when it did not actually do such a thing. That's damaging to server culture. If you're going to bring up subjects and topics, you should either be prepared to 1: speak authoritatively on your topic or 2: be corrected if you're not doing so. You don't need to have the wiki memorized in order to look it up. I wasn't telling you to fuck off,. I was saying to use the resources at hand when you're contributing to a discussion about balance.
Quote:
Don't be too hard on Tormy. He's an alpha male, and they are known for being fiercely protective of their bitches.
Who are you?
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
So if I had to list the types of weapons from least effects to most effects would it look like this?
I'll add Mythal count in too even though that isn't the depth of this argument. This assumes you wear gloves
(4 Mythal) Fists (Two Unused Slots) (8 Mythal) One Handed Style (Unused Slot) (9 Mythal) Twin Weapon Style (AB penalty, extra attacks, Unused Slot) (9 Mythal) Two Handed Style (Unused Slot, STR dmg) (12 Mythal) Dual Weapon Style (AB penalty, extra attacks) (12 Mythal) Sword & Board Style (Bonus AC)
Looks like it all boils down to maximising how many slots of gear are used and how many effects you have total for a build. Same reason why Iouns are good all the time.
Touch Ac is incredibly relevant to every spell that uses touch attacks, which is a great deal of things including some instant deaths.
I never mentioned touch attacks until you did, I was speaking about knock down feat which is versus AC and discipline and SOME spells with a knock down effect which are against saving throws.
Yes there are other spells which have different conditions such as a touch attack, but I didn't speak to them at all and I certainly did not deny they exist, I just didn't think there was a need to list them all in their entirety as I thought the "casters kill everyone" statement was self evident and so listing spells with crowd control would be redundant.
TormakSaber wrote:
I corrected you because
You didn't "correct" me you TLDR my posts and made false assumptions, and made a very arrogant and insulting remark as a result.
TormakSaber wrote:
when people talk about mechanics incorrectly on the forums, weird rumors and tales start, like the big rumor that Called Shot bypassed epic Dodge, leading people to make room for it on their builds when it did not actually do such a thing.
The only incorrect things about this exchange is your assumptions and your presentation of those assumptions in your reply to me. I don't think that not going into exhaustive detail about irrelevant details to my arguments or points can or should be twisted into talking incorrectly about mechanics.
Again I didn't list spells and their saves because it wasn't salient to my posts, at no point did I question the touch mechanics or even mention them.
TormakSaber wrote:
That's damaging to server culture.
What damaging to server culture is when former DMs and developers trash talk fellow players EVEN when they are correct in their assumptions, which today TormakSaber you were not correct in assuming. Staff should and indeed must set to the standard for others to follow, but what you have done now is start a confrontation where none should exist so "golf clap"
TormakSaber wrote:
If you're going to bring up subjects and topics, you should either be prepared to 1: speak authoritatively on your topic or 2: be corrected if you're not doing so. You don't need to have the wiki memorized in order to look it up. I wasn't telling you to fuck off,. I was saying to use the resources at hand when you're contributing to a discussion about balance.
[/quote]
If you are going to keep making incorrect sweeping statements after apparenly TLDR then there can be no good resolutions here.
Just for your info, I am passing out temporary forum bans now for everyone who cannot behave civil and are just flame-y and troll-y.
I tried nice by reminding people to re-read and consider what and how they post.
I am done now playing nice. You cannot take the time to overthink your posts, 'I' will give you that time, if you want it or not. Those temporary forum bans can reach between 2 days and 2 weeks, depending on how poorly you behaved.
Also most "grapple" like attacks require a touch attack which even if it is not negated by the epic dodge via the "avoids the first attack each round." text of the feat will still have to over come 70-80 AC, because thats what you are going to face in reality with expertise or improved expertise and haste AND then assuming you hit you then have to make an opposed skill roll or saving throw which is something easily geared for.
?
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Thing is, unless they are attacking you (which they shouldn't be given you're a caster and have have/sanctuary +more tools to get out) they are going to be flat footed to you, so your hand attack roll? They lose at the least tumble and dodge, meaning -11 ac at a minimum. Most dex builds hang out at around 60ish before haste.
And they are not going to make that grapple check.
Joined: 12 Nov 2015 Location: The belly of the beast
I think I get what mushi was trying to say, but complaining that shields offer...well protection..seems like an invalid point. Even if you lowered buff times and turned shields into useless pieces of junk, I could still make a cleric with extended creeping dooms and haven and beat everyone in pvp 100% of the time. No saves, no spell resistance. Just slow ticks of AoE damage. Wait for them to chug a heal pot, lay down two more, watch as the next heal pot is not as effective, greater ruin/hellball combo and then victory dance. Is this overpowered. Nope. Just how things are supposed to work. Some approaches are simply more effective than others and using a shield in combat makes far more sense than not to. Builds that don't rely on dex AC NEED this protection. Mages that take shield prof generally only do so to maintain competitive ac with other builds. To be honest...a monk or dex monk if well built recieves 65-70 ac and tons of attacks per round, umd, and natural spell resistance really has no grounds to complain about shields or buffs. So..I'm kinda not seeing the point.
_________________ Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.
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). There is very little that could be done to fix this, and Amia is passed the point where it doesn't matter much, but I still felt like it was worth giving them a mention.
Rewrite the skill system - In melee combat a shield is a tool for parrying attacks, but in NWN/D&D the parry skill is useless in part because of the general skill system and because of the way it limits offence which is counter intuitive given that even the huge Roman tower shields were used as part of their offensive drills as much as it was a tool of defence.
This assumes you wear gloves 
